Smasherx74 wrote: »deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »Smasherx74 wrote: »PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.
Sure you can spend hundreds of hours figuring out what would be best gear to use, maybe you even change gear/slots for duels, bg, and cyrodill... but what is it that relaly makes you good? Well 99.9999999% of the time it's gear, nto your skill. Perhaps sometimes you get an even fight, then it lasts 2 hours.
Defeatist mentality. I’ll at least agree gear matters more in this game than most others I have played but you could put some in BIS gear that has no skill and a really good player in crap gear and the better player will still win. The day everyone starts blaming gear sets on why they die is the day they should maybe reassess their own skills. Not saying you’re bad as I don’t know you and won’t judge, but I see others wit this mentality too and there is a common theme.***_allard wrote: »PvP sucks! I have never liked PvP and hate the fact that game developers cater to them that do.
I know right? All this PvP content over the last three years is just way too much! I wish there would be PvE oriented DLC for once! *end sarcasm*
If you wear *** gear in PVP, even a noob can destroy you if they got really good gear. A noob in 5fps spamming biting jabs and jesus beam will absolutely murder you every time. Why? Because you literally can't kill them. That noob could be the worst player in the game, and all he has to do is spam 2 abilities. One damage and one heals. If you're really playing in *** gear and he realy has good gear, he's just going to destroy you every time no matter how much you run or how good your movement is.
This si why I compared this game to Archeage. In that game the people with best gear have played / grinded for years or paid thousands of dollars for the character. Starting off as a noob in AA you will never get even close to top GS. You'll literally be grinding every single day just to get a little bit better GS, and then after about 3-5 years you might have a high GS relative to the top. Now you can get 3k gs (about the minimum required for end game) and play absolutely *** PERFECT but if your enemy has 8k gs, they will literally 2 shot you or just stand there while you do tons of damage and they haven't even lost a % of health.
You know what other game is like that? ESO.... I can go duel someone right now and even if they're a GOOD if their gear isn't good enough I can just stand there typing in chat about how they suck, while I just throw some buffs and vigor myself every once in a while. That player can be a former emp and still get his ass handed to him without me having to play skillful at all. As long as I got better gear for the situation (like dueling) I will always win.
Syrusthevirus187 wrote: »Best connection wins
Smasherx74 wrote: »PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.
Sure you can spend hundreds of hours figuring out what would be best gear to use, maybe you even change gear/slots for duels, bg, and cyrodill... but what is it that relaly makes you good? Well 99.9999999% of the time it's gear, nto your skill. Perhaps sometimes you get an even fight, then it lasts 2 hours.
Nord_Templar wrote: »Healer in PvP is almost useless, now in the game. Any cutthroat, damager, does amount of damage in 1 second, much more than you can treat.
If you want to be successful in this game, just use the ready-made character sets made by someone.
It's not I advise, it's I quote the advice of a professional gamers.
Forget about the pleasure and immersion in the game. A real war is hard work, and the hope to live up to the evening.
It is much easier to heal, sucking life out of the enemy, this is the ability of the Class NightBlade.
Zbigb4life wrote: »Smasherx74 wrote: »PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.
Sure you can spend hundreds of hours figuring out what would be best gear to use, maybe you even change gear/slots for duels, bg, and cyrodill... but what is it that relaly makes you good? Well 99.9999999% of the time it's gear, nto your skill. Perhaps sometimes you get an even fight, then it lasts 2 hours.
It all started to go downhill when proc sets were introduced
Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »Oh gosh. So many potatoes in this thread it's entertaining.
I feel bad for the posters here who advise all you potatoes only to be shot down by your refusal to take in the advice in the first place and improve yourselves in PvP and by the looks of it, you don't really know how to PvP at all, not by the slightest margin.
So many hyperbolic potato statements here.
Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »Oh gosh. So many potatoes in this thread it's entertaining.
I feel bad for the posters here who advise all you potatoes only to be shot down by your refusal to take in the advice in the first place and improve yourselves in PvP and by the looks of it, you don't really know how to PvP at all, not by the slightest margin.
So many hyperbolic potato statements here.
Colecovision wrote: »Is pvp that part of the game where I'm fighting Daedra or a delve boss, then my screen fills with the word "cliff racer" and then I am back at a wayshrine? Or is it the part where I follow a large group when they go by, spam poison injection and get stuff in the mail? I have no idea what's happening when taking a castle and if I stray from the group, my screen again fills with the word "cliff racer" and I'm spawning off in the distance. Then somehow, I still get stuff in the mail. Last time 19.5k showed up almost a week later. I liked that, but didn't earn it. I got credit for killing 12 people but I have no idea which ones or how that was measured. Zero skill was involved in those killings. FWIW, I do help with the guards, aka the pve part.
I'm not trying to derail the real topic here, I'm just pointing out that there is a huge variable here that might make people think they are better than they are. If you want pvp with skill, a starting point would be to stop filling cyrodil with lambs for the slaughter who don't actually pvp. It's not fun for us and how are you guys/gals going to measure and develop skills when the player you're killing isn't actually playing the same game?
@kargen27I find PvP to be very easy. Easier than falling off a horse. Hell ya don't even have to fall off the horse as other players will knock you off. That is a service they provide.
And once you finally get to the battle just charge in throwing attacks ever which way (you're bound to hit something) die, wait for rez then repeat. Easy as can be. I can make AP lying there dead, how much more simple do you want it?
Wreuntzylla wrote: »Good builds are a major factor to winning in pvp. That includes a lot of time theorycrafting to get the right mix of class, skills mix, skill rotation, gear, traits, glyphs, mundus stone, food/drink, team composition. And all these different choices are optimal based on different situations. There are hundreds of way to build a character. The combinations are nearly endless. It takes a lot of skill and knowledge of the game to make a strong build and many times you're rewarded by it on the battlefield. You're also rewarded by lifting builds off YouTube streamers for all the lazy people out there.
Yes. It also turns out that the reason we have a narrow meta in ESO is that particular builds completely outclass any other build. It's not just an advantage, it's a chasm.I have no doubt it helps people, but your claim was that gear and skill don't have as much to do with victories as ping.
You've done nothing to counter that claim. Mostly because you can't. There are no counter claims that stand up to scrutiny. I've been watching these same debates occur since the days of Quake Team Fortress.
It does more than just help people. The average human reaction time is a little over 200ms. The best are around 100ms. That right there is the skill level difference. 100ms, best to average. Let's leave below average out of it.
With 100ms - 300ms difference (latency) between players before we allow reaction times to influence things, there is no skill difference that can be shown to be the major influence on outcomes. People are playing from all over the world on two servers. This is what latency equalization in an online game works around.
Anyone can match the best gear sets given the time to farm them. Anyone can rote practice until near perfect. Latency however, especially in a game without equalization, you are stuck with.
You've done nothing to counter my claim.
I have that rare knowledge that comes from being on different networks at different times.
ZoS does a good job covering up latency by smoothing what we see on the client side. However, if you truly want to see how big a difference it is, try lock picking on a low latency connection and then induce an additional 100ms of latency and try it again. Master locks are easy peasy without significant latency, simple locks become a pain even with only 100ms added.
PvP is no different. It's difficult to tell that you are suffering from latency due to the client side smoothing, but the difference in performance is huge.
As an aside, folks that want to be competitive should spend a couple hundred dollars and get a decent monitor. I was having issues that I couldn't fix by switching to fiber or upgrading every single competent of my rig, to the point of buying commercial M.2 drives. By pure luck I came across a forum post that said certain revs of the gaming monitor I was using had a firmware issue. My KB:death ration shot through the roof simply by getting a new monitor... Man, the money I could have saved.Smasherx74 wrote: »PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.
Sure you can spend hundreds of hours figuring out what would be best gear to use, maybe you even change gear/slots for duels, bg, and cyrodill... but what is it that relaly makes you good? Well 99.9999999% of the time it's gear, nto your skill. Perhaps sometimes you get an even fight, then it lasts 2 hours.
is not true... its more like this:PVP is hard, and has a very steep learning curve.
First you need to learn how to make damage with animationcancelling! This is nearly the most important thing in this game, but also difficult to learn. So best you can do to learn how to make a good DPS at a dummie first. Look some tuturials from experienced players and try it.
After learning it or while learning it you should also have an idea how you want to play. I needed 2 years to create a successful non-META build just for Templar. So its not just join the game and playing successful... you really need to learn much before...
Thanks for the laugh. Animation cancelling is not hard, it does take muscle memorization so that you can perform it reflexively (without thinking about it), but that is conditioning and not an aspect of skill. Most serious PvE'rs can animation cancel in their sleep. The only aspect that PvErs have to adjust to is the fact that animation canceling in PvP is not about dps. In PvE, 40k sustained dps is good, in PvP less than 10k dps can be fine. The primary reason for animation canceling in PvP is to prevent skill from being a factor.
And of course, if you search around on the forums, you can find out how to macro so that not only are you able to perform canceling without needing any conditioning, but so that you can also become largely immune to lag induced failures... If you ever run across someone jumping rock to rock while targeting you over their shoulder and landing perfect burst rotations, yeah, it's not possible without a macro or being a mutant with an extra arm.
Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »That is a bit of a stretch to say. 90%?
It is true that gears matter a lot in PvP but personally, it's more like 60% gear and 40% skill. I'm not running any BiS/fotm PvP gears and I do well in PvP.
Situational awareness, timely execution of defensive/offensive manoeuvres and positioning matters a lot in PvP. That is skill.
Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »That is a bit of a stretch to say. 90%?
It is true that gears matter a lot in PvP but personally, it's more like 60% gear and 40% skill. I'm not running any BiS/fotm PvP gears and I do well in PvP.
Situational awareness, timely execution of defensive/offensive manoeuvres and positioning matters a lot in PvP. That is skill.
This. i run all crafted gear and I would consider myself above average in terms of effectiveness in pvp.
But the other side to this is that, yes, players, and especially the good ones or the ones that theorycraft alot, find combinations of sets that make things generally OP in their favor. What's further disappointing is that these set combinations or "over-performing skill/passive/gear combinations" are held close the the chest until word gets out and then they call for a nerf.
People are terrible. high end pvpers literally hold onto OP builds, then when word inevitably gets out, they cry for a nerf when they cant exclusively benefit from it anymore.
Narvuntien wrote: »What is even winning in PVP?
Killing other players?
Getting AP?
Honestly I enjoy PVP on a higher level than the actual fighting. Zergs crashing into each other, 2 shot ganks and lag of both the network and FPS varities makes actual combat a mess.
It isn't about living or dying or killing, its about pulling the enemy around to gave advantages to your team on the otherside of the map. I mean you have to hope your efforts work, you can't really know unless you start seeing keeps lighting up.
Zergs have this kind of predicability to them due to the nature of large numbers of people you can exploit, you can waste there time you can pull them away from where they should be.
You and your three buddies take a bunch of resources and they send 12 people to stop you... you win.. even if they kill you all.. They used 12 on your 4.
Narvuntien wrote: »What is even winning in PVP?
Killing other players?
Getting AP?
Honestly I enjoy PVP on a higher level than the actual fighting. Zergs crashing into each other, 2 shot ganks and lag of both the network and FPS varities makes actual combat a mess.
It isn't about living or dying or killing, its about pulling the enemy around to gave advantages to your team on the otherside of the map. I mean you have to hope your efforts work, you can't really know unless you start seeing keeps lighting up.
Zergs have this kind of predicability to them due to the nature of large numbers of people you can exploit, you can waste there time you can pull them away from where they should be.
You and your three buddies take a bunch of resources and they send 12 people to stop you... you win.. even if they kill you all.. They used 12 on your 4.
There's an end of campaign reward and a scoring system and 1st through 3rd place..... Have you ever been to Cyrodiil? I assume you can grasp in BGs that there's always a winning team.
I'm actually having a pretty good laugh at this thread now.
Gear does make a difference, but not a huge one. As long as your gear is 'right' changing.to another set won't really do anything to help you.
Case and point, here's a video from a long time ago, where I was running Black Rose, Viper and Velidreth, at a point where those sets were some of the most broken things in the game.
If you watch that video you can tell that I am utter trash at pvp, but so are most of the people I am fighting (though the ganking helps)
Fast forward to today, and while I wouldn't say I'm good at pvp, I've played enough to become decent. I can track CC timings, I manage buffs better and I can abuse line of sight. If I fought myself from back then now, I'd dumpster, even in what a lot of people would consider sub-optimal gear.
If you watch someone like Kena play Magblade you can see the skill involved to kite out enemies, to time your burst and stay alive.
In battlegrounds it is super evident when someone isn't very good at pvp, often because they sit up somewhere and spam snipe, or hard cast frags at you.
Player skill is a huge part of pvp, and anyone who says otherwise is a zergling or a ganker