Solution for permablock?

cschwingeb14_ESO

The solution to a perma block build is to run a bleed/dot build. If it's a good tank build, you might need a heal debuff to, because they'll have good self healing

Even then, don't expect to take down a tank build solo or quickly, but the health pressure from a couple of bleed/dot built characters will wear them out of resources quickly

An Oblivion enchant doesn't hurt either

Soris

Stop making silly mistakes with adding more penalties. Penalties hurt normal builds much more than specialised builds. Specialised builds will always find a way to workaround your penalty nerfs while regular builds will severely suffer.

My opinion is that You can just simply make all instant abilities have 0.3 sec cast time as their 1/3 of animation time. While this will still allow for animation cancel eventhough in a more slower pace but also any ability used could drop block.

Tormy

Permablock builds aren't an issue tbh as they do zero damage lol

DeHei

The combination of much damage mitigation and great selfheal a group of some guys, which all use permablock can make enough damage in combination to bring down single targets. In reason of good defense you can go very offensive...

Just 1 permablocker isnt a problem for a good player...

wheem_ESO

Maybe there are some permablockers in Cyrodiil that have weak damage and no group healing/support, but that's not the case in Battlegrounds. There are permablockers that guard, cleanse, and heal their high damage teammates, or that push out >= 1 million damage per match themselves (though to be fair, those offensive players may not be blocking literally 100% of the time, and instead only when they're under heavy enough fire).

RinaldoGandolphi

We had the solutions to Permablock, and ZOS nerfed it because the said tanks whined about it.



I use to run this set on my Mag Sorc when i was playing solo sometimes and it was a HARD counter to these annoying tanks in Cyrodiil as if they so much as even Taloned you they could NOT heal for 5 seconds, and combined with a Disease Enchant, you could skillfully burn them down and kill them.

However, the set is useless now. The nerf to that set was an indirect 200% buff to tank builds...with the old Fassala's you could even kill the Permablocker + Guard + Heal set ups folks run now as any damage they done prevented them from healing for 5 seconds which = dead tank....they reduced it 3 seconds and it was still viable, but now its not...its not worth anything more then deconning....the only way to kill these tanks is to take away their healing, and no there is no longer a means to do that. Major Defile isn't enough, neither is points in Defile...we need to the old Fassala's Guile set back to even the odds

Qbiken

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

We had the solutions to Permablock, and ZOS nerfed it because the said tanks whined about it.



I use to run this set on my Mag Sorc when i was playing solo sometimes and it was a HARD counter to these annoying tanks in Cyrodiil as if they so much as even Taloned you they could NOT heal for 5 seconds, and combined with a Disease Enchant, you could skillfully burn them down and kill them.

However, the set is useless now. The nerf to that set was an indirect 200% buff to tank builds...with the old Fassala's you could even kill the Permablocker + Guard + Heal set ups folks run now as any damage they done prevented them from healing for 5 seconds which = dead tank....they reduced it 3 seconds and it was still viable, but now its not...its not worth anything more then deconning....the only way to kill these tanks is to take away their healing, and no there is no longer a means to do that. Major Defile isn't enough, neither is points in Defile...we need to the old Fassala's Guile set back to even the odds

Durok´s Bane is the "new" Fasalla´s

techprince

Qbiken wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

We had the solutions to Permablock, and ZOS nerfed it because the said tanks whined about it.



I use to run this set on my Mag Sorc when i was playing solo sometimes and it was a HARD counter to these annoying tanks in Cyrodiil as if they so much as even Taloned you they could NOT heal for 5 seconds, and combined with a Disease Enchant, you could skillfully burn them down and kill them.

However, the set is useless now. The nerf to that set was an indirect 200% buff to tank builds...with the old Fassala's you could even kill the Permablocker + Guard + Heal set ups folks run now as any damage they done prevented them from healing for 5 seconds which = dead tank....they reduced it 3 seconds and it was still viable, but now its not...its not worth anything more then deconning....the only way to kill these tanks is to take away their healing, and no there is no longer a means to do that. Major Defile isn't enough, neither is points in Defile...we need to the old Fassala's Guile set back to even the odds

Durok´s Bane is the "new" Fasalla´s

That 50% was stackable with Major and Minor Defile.

gabriebe

Or just use Fear. That thing is so broken, it's nearly impossible to break free instantly.

WuffyCerulei

In regular PVP, tanks can be avoided, but in CP Battlegrounds, they're a HUGE pain.

Xsorus

Blocking Tanks are basically the Blackguards of Warhammer

They're hard to kill but no threat.

paulsimonps

Xsorus wrote: »

Blocking Tanks are basically the Blackguards of Warhammer

They're hard to kill but no threat.

Dude I loved Blackguards I loved the fact that tanks had a purpose in WAR RvR.

Ranger209

paulsimonps wrote: »

If you truly want to find a "solution" for permablocking then think of something that is NOT battlespirit, the devs hate putting stuff in that thing and will most likely never consider your suggestion if your suggestion is to add something new to it. So if you want to change blocking then think of something that will fix PvP but will not break PvE.

Unfortunately Battlespirit is really the only way to make a change of this kind in PvP that doesn't have an impact on PvE.
In Battlespirit shields are halved, healing is halved, make the damage blocked halved as well. Seems to be in line with those Battlespirit functions. Like it or not, I don't think there is really any other way to change a global mechanic like that for PvP only.

I like the OP suggestion, it makes blocking more of a timing and reactive thing, rather than just holding down the block button. But it would cause issues in endgame PvE I do believe.

lazerlaz

I wish this was true. I run major defile and 6 dots including 2 bleeds. Yes, I dent their health more but they still come out of it to heal and hold block.

paulsimonps

Ranger209 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

If you truly want to find a "solution" for permablocking then think of something that is NOT battlespirit, the devs hate putting stuff in that thing and will most likely never consider your suggestion if your suggestion is to add something new to it. So if you want to change blocking then think of something that will fix PvP but will not break PvE.

Unfortunately Battlespirit is really the only way to make a change of this kind in PvP that doesn't have an impact on PvE.
In Battlespirit shields are halved, healing is halved, make the damage blocked halved as well. Seems to be in line with those Battlespirit functions. Like it or not, I don't think there is really any other way to change a global mechanic like that for PvP only.

I like the OP suggestion, it makes blocking more of a timing and reactive thing, rather than just holding down the block button. But it would cause issues in endgame PvE I do believe.

See problem with wanting to make it timing based is this. This is NOT an action combat game. A huge majority of attacks deal the damage BEFORE the animation is done, which is really easy to test and see for yourself. This is why we can animation cancel. I wish we could have more reaction based gameplay, but this is not TERA, it would require the entire game engine to be remade. So asking for something like blocking to be reactionary would mean you would have to change A LOT about the game or it would F everyone up, EVERYONE, not just the Tanks.

And as well, like I mentioned earlier in the thread, the OPs suggestion would not work unless you make them drop block for a certain amount of time, cause dropping block for a quarter of a second won't do anything. And if you do force it to be down for a certain amount of time, you will hurt the regular players too, not just the perma blockers. Cause it would mean that you penalize anyone that is being pushed even just the slightest, and if you start of by pressing someone they will most likely get overwhelmed and die really fast.

IcyDeadPeople

Why would anyone have a problem with extreme tank permablock builds that hit like wet noodle? In a perfectly balanced Utopian world of ESO PVP there would certainly be room and utility for those kind of builds, as well as squishy builds that do amazing burst damage, and then everybody else falling somewhere in between.

Most people only have problem with builds that are both extremely tanky and dealing high damage output at the same time. This recent patch attempted to address that by nerfing some aspects of heavy armor.

I would propose to go further by putting light and medium on a higher damage tier compared to heavy by adding spell damage buff to light, physical penetration buff to medium, and making all of the armor passives scale higher when wearing 7/7 of that armor type.

That would result in light armor users with shields having an advantage over the other two, so shield size of dampen magic and hardened ward also need to be reduced a bit so either of those abilities would max out around 22k PVE / 11k PVP or so when you have 50k max magicka and 7/7 light.

That would bring us closer to that ideal scenario where there are squishy light and medium builds dealing massive burst damage, some extreme tank heavy armor builds, and then everybody else in between.

On the other hand, if you are not complaining about true "permablock" low damage RP Super Tank builds like Hattori Hanzo, Escorpiao Noturno etc, but instead complaining about average magicka DKs who block a little and also deal damage, those are much easier to kill. First of all they have relatively little stamina. Just cc them a few times, hit them with dots and channels like templar jabs, rapid strikes, bow ulti etc and they are out of stam.

Ranger209

paulsimonps wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

If you truly want to find a "solution" for permablocking then think of something that is NOT battlespirit, the devs hate putting stuff in that thing and will most likely never consider your suggestion if your suggestion is to add something new to it. So if you want to change blocking then think of something that will fix PvP but will not break PvE.

Unfortunately Battlespirit is really the only way to make a change of this kind in PvP that doesn't have an impact on PvE.
In Battlespirit shields are halved, healing is halved, make the damage blocked halved as well. Seems to be in line with those Battlespirit functions. Like it or not, I don't think there is really any other way to change a global mechanic like that for PvP only.

I like the OP suggestion, it makes blocking more of a timing and reactive thing, rather than just holding down the block button. But it would cause issues in endgame PvE I do believe.

See problem with wanting to make it timing based is this. This is NOT an action combat game. A huge majority of attacks deal the damage BEFORE the animation is done, which is really easy to test and see for yourself. This is why we can animation cancel. I wish we could have more reaction based gameplay, but this is not TERA, it would require the entire game engine to be remade. So asking for something like blocking to be reactionary would mean you would have to change A LOT about the game or it would F everyone up, EVERYONE, not just the Tanks.

And as well, like I mentioned earlier in the thread, the OPs suggestion would not work unless you make them drop block for a certain amount of time, cause dropping block for a quarter of a second won't do anything. And if you do force it to be down for a certain amount of time, you will hurt the regular players too, not just the perma blockers. Cause it would mean that you penalize anyone that is being pushed even just the slightest, and if you start of by pressing someone they will most likely get overwhelmed and die really fast.

I will fall back to my suggestion of halving the amount of damage you can block in pvp via the battlespirit buff like was done to shields and healing. Instead of being able to block the initial 50% halve it to 25% in pvp. It seems in line with what is done to healing and shields.

BroanBeast1215

Joy_Division wrote: »

Out of about 30 players I come across in Cyrodiil, 1 is a "perma-block" tank that I just walk away from. Probably 3-4 others try to "perma-block" but have bad builds or aren't very good and just die.

Those players who are hard to kill, yet actually dangerous offensively, are not just relying on block. They are using multiple defensive tactics and skills to stay alive.

lol this. thats why I always lol when people talk about the unkillable tanks when there really is only 1 or 2

Drummerx04

_Salty_ wrote: »

Solution for perma block is walk away. You aren't supposed to be able to pew pew pew everything.

EP is breeching the south wall!! Get more reinforcements over there now!! Kill them all!!
Sir, they've sent in a couple permablocking tanks, what do you want us to do?!
Well ***, I guess we should just walk away, we aren't supposed to be able to pew pew pew everything. I guess EP wins this one!

Please tell me this is not what you mean for us to do.

Twohothardware

The problem isn't with blocking but with the synergy of a couple of sets and the inclusion of reduce cost glyphs for blocking. Those sets need to be changed and block cost glyphs taken out of the game.

Between the reduce cost of blocking S&B passives, block cost reduction in CP, and the Study trait there doesn't need to be glyphs at all and those glyphs are as strong as having several Sturdy pieces of armor. There are also a couple of sets in the game that players are abusing to make these incredibly difficult to kill builds and those sets need to be changed. All ZoS has to do is go into PvP, find a few of these players, and look at their builds to find the problem.

Because you can have a bunch of CP investing in blocking, have several Sturdy pieces of armor, and be in all heavy armor with S&B and you can't just stand there and hold block against a half a dozen or more players. Your tanky and you can tank a lot more damage but you can't permablock. Permablock is the result of a handful of broken sets and reduce block cost glyphs and PvP would be much healthier without them.

Urza1234

The game just recieved like 3 stuns that go through block. Siphoner CP was changed to affect all sources of resource gain. Those changes were probably made -specifically- to address permablock.

Especially because BGs, where permablock actually might matter, just received CP.

Sixty5

How about a CP star to increase the cost of block for people you light attack.

I mean everything in the champion point tree is meant to have a counter to it, and that was the logic behind the Siphoner changes.

Add flat unreducable cost to block and you give those tanks a good kick right where it hurts most.

kyle.wilson

Why not something like this?

gabriebe

Just use fear, it<s not that complicated lol. Or siege. Or negate. Or those new unblockable CCs. Or Snipe. If any of you ever played a permablock build, you'd quickly realize how vulnerable it really is.

Permablock builds only exists to be crowd control in Cyro. If I can get 20 sockers to follow me, abandon their siege or just focus on me instead of the people behind me, then my job helping a difficult push is done. And it's also just a pretty fun feeling to have 20 people trying to knock you down.

wheem_ESO

I think there's a disconnect between some of the posters here. Some think of "permablockers" as solely those players who have 40k+ hit points, and do next to no damage or healing as they run around in Cyrodiil. Others of us are mostly referring to the people in Battlegrounds who are healing for 500k+ per match (self healing does not count at all on the scoreboard, by the way), while spending virtually 100% of their in-combat time holding block.

These permablocking healers are typically at least in a duo, if not a full premade, and are sometimes incorporating things like Guard as well. 'Course, these players can be extremely effective in solo queueing too, depending on which random teammates they get and/or the game mode. A permablocker that can do significant amounts of healing is quite an annoying target in Chaosball, especially since there are many games where the third team is going to be targeting me as I'm targeting the ball carrier.

The way I see it, if some player is going to be able to make most of my attacks do <= 1k damage, that should be an extremely temporary state of affairs - not the entire Battleground match.

IcyDeadPeople

Drummerx04 wrote: »

_Salty_ wrote: »

Solution for perma block is walk away. You aren't supposed to be able to pew pew pew everything.

EP is breeching the south wall!! Get more reinforcements over there now!! Kill them all!!
Sir, they've sent in a couple permablocking tanks, what do you want us to do?!
Well ***, I guess we should just walk away, we aren't supposed to be able to pew pew pew everything. I guess EP wins this one!

Please tell me this is not what you mean for us to do.

There are only a few of these extreme tank players on the entire PC NA server. They don't do damage just recharge your ultimate or bait you into standing in siege circles.

If you are lucky enough to see a couple of them together you should start RP dance party instead of attacking.

Azurya

DeHei wrote: »

I really like the diversity, but i agree, that this permablockbuilds can be really hard, while doing good damage.

Here is a possible solution for this to use block again more as tactical element and not all the time:

A stacking penalty for permablock, which increase the block costs just for PvP (adding that with battlespirit). In this way PvE would not be harder with this. I mean something like every 3 sec the blockcosts increase 100% (after 3 100% higher costs, after 6 sec 200% higher costs and so on..), while holding block and give a 3 sec cooldown to reset this increased costs!

Pls write in comments, what you think about this idea

well we know that ZOS cannot made things work different for PVE and PvP, that is why all suffer in PVE the changes due to PvP made.
And knowing this, and then reading your proposal, which you did not think very long about, I presume, it is not bringing anything. Just ignore the tanking troll and after 2-3 nights he will be gone, cause it is useless standing around and all walk past you, you have no longer any function in game.

Maulkin

Azurya wrote: »

well we know that ZOS cannot made things work different for PVE and PvP, that is why all suffer in PVE the changes due to PvP made.
And knowing this, and then reading your proposal, which you did not think very long about, I presume, it is not bringing anything. Just ignore the tanking troll and after 2-3 nights he will be gone, cause it is useless standing around and all walk past you, you have no longer any function in game.

Do you even BG, bruh?

Azurya

Maulkin wrote: »

Azurya wrote: »

well we know that ZOS cannot made things work different for PVE and PvP, that is why all suffer in PVE the changes due to PvP made.
And knowing this, and then reading your proposal, which you did not think very long about, I presume, it is not bringing anything. Just ignore the tanking troll and after 2-3 nights he will be gone, cause it is useless standing around and all walk past you, you have no longer any function in game.

Do you even BG, bruh?

actually I did!
but it is no fun if you do it rnd, and meets every 3d or 2d round a team of 4, who plays together all the time, and you have no time to tell others something on how to things right, in means to be competitive.
so I left

Maulkin

Azurya wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Azurya wrote: »

well we know that ZOS cannot made things work different for PVE and PvP, that is why all suffer in PVE the changes due to PvP made.
And knowing this, and then reading your proposal, which you did not think very long about, I presume, it is not bringing anything. Just ignore the tanking troll and after 2-3 nights he will be gone, cause it is useless standing around and all walk past you, you have no longer any function in game.

Do you even BG, bruh?

actually I did!
but it is no fun if you do it rnd, and meets every 3d or 2d round a team of 4, who plays together all the time, and you have no time to tell others something on how to things right, in means to be competitive.
so I left

Good for you, but you are missing the point. Being a tank is by far the most effective strategy for modes like CtR and Chaosball. You can't just ignore the tank when it's guarding an objective, scoring points and winning the game for the opposition.