Solution for permablock?

ak_pvp

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Why would anyone have a problem with extreme tank permablock builds that hit like wet noodle? In a perfectly balanced Utopian world of ESO PVP there would certainly be room and utility for those kind of builds, as well as squishy builds that do amazing burst damage, and then everybody else falling somewhere in between.

Most people only have problem with builds that are both extremely tanky and dealing high damage output at the same time. This recent patch attempted to address that by nerfing some aspects of heavy armor.

I would propose to go further by putting light and medium on a higher damage tier compared to heavy by adding spell damage buff to light, physical penetration buff to medium, and making all of the armor passives scale higher when wearing 7/7 of that armor type.

That would result in light armor users with shields having an advantage over the other two, so shield size of dampen magic and hardened ward also need to be reduced a bit so either of those abilities would max out around 22k PVE / 11k PVP or so when you have 50k max magicka and 7/7 light.

That would bring us closer to that ideal scenario where there are squishy light and medium builds dealing massive burst damage, some extreme tank heavy armor builds, and then everybody else in between.

On the other hand, if you are not complaining about true "permablock" low damage RP Super Tank builds like Hattori Hanzo, Escorpiao Noturno etc, but instead complaining about average magicka DKs who block a little and also deal damage, those are much easier to kill. First of all they have relatively little stamina. Just cc them a few times, hit them with dots and channels like templar jabs, rapid strikes, bow ulti etc and they are out of stam.

If they give med better sets, better dodge and passives. (Light is fine.) Make blocking in PvP multiplicative, and tone down shields. Then armour will be fine.

Then add dynamic ulti+abilities, remove AoE caps and fix classes. Hey presto. PvP is fixed.

The only place I find issues with block tanks are in BGs, because they ruin the entire point by sitting on relics/chaos balls. In openworld they are ignorable.

altemriel

DeHei wrote: »

I really like the diversity, but i agree, that this permablockbuilds can be really hard, while doing good damage.

Here is a possible solution for this to use block again more as tactical element and not all the time:

A stacking penalty for permablock, which increase the block costs just for PvP (adding that with battlespirit). In this way PvE would not be harder with this. I mean something like every 3 sec the blockcosts increase 100% (after 3 100% higher costs, after 6 sec 200% higher costs and so on..), while holding block and give a 3 sec cooldown to reset this increased costs!

Pls write in comments, what you think about this idea

perma block issue could be solved with increased costs of blocking after more seconds of permablock

Reverb

Poisons, and continually cc and knock off balance. Even permablockers resources are finite, and eventually a stun will get through, then move to execute quickly. If the permablocker is a DK as so many are, you need to deal damage faster than his ultimate generates, otherwise he starts over with almost full resources, and you are depleted from your efforts. If the fight is going in that direction, just walk away.

cschwingeb14_ESO

Rather than nerf blocking to 25% with Battle Spirit, which would make blocking pretty useless, if rather see Battle Spirit reduce the cost reduction to blocking.

The real problem with perma block is that it is perma. Once the floor is 300 stam/mag every .25 seconds. (currently you can get block cost down to 96 or so), then the problem takes care of itself. Jabs/flurry/etc will drain a ton of resources, and the tank will be out in 30 sec or less

Defilted

This is for normal Cyro play. Not sure how you deal with it in BG's or dueling.

One of the best solutions to a Perma blocker

Ignore them, then focus on the squishy targets(healers/DPS, in that order), then group kill the perma blocker.

In Cyro Perma blockers are used to distract and hold specific areas like a door way from being repaired for example. They are also used to get into enemy lines at a battle and disrupt healers and ranges casters. They can also be used to keep opponents from moving with locking specific people down and further disrupting the fight.

My group is a very organized group and we deal with perma blockers effectively 85% of the time. The biggest weakness that all permablockers have is a low damage output. So once you learn to deal with their CC and LOS (Meaning getting in between you and your intended target) you can effectively most of the time remove them from the fight with just simply ignoring most of what they are doing.


BG's would be a much harder issue being you have way less options with a smaller team. A pre-made team may just have to bite the bullet and have their own Perma blocker to keep and control the opponents perma blocker.

Duels....... that would just be very boring fighting a perma blocker and once I knew who they were I would just not duel them unless I want a practice dummy DPS test.




Spelling

paulsimonps

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

Rather than nerf blocking to 25% with Battle Spirit, which would make blocking pretty useless, if rather see Battle Spirit reduce the cost reduction to blocking.

The real problem with perma block is that it is perma. Once the floor is 300 stam/mag every .25 seconds. (currently you can get block cost down to 96 or so), then the problem takes care of itself. Jabs/flurry/etc will drain a ton of resources, and the tank will be out in 30 sec or less

Lowest possible block cost is 48 stamina per .25s. Or 192 per second. 7 Heavy constitution gives you 757 every 4 seconds. With that low block cost its 768 every 4 seconds. So not fully perma blocking, but all classes got something they could use to bring that up, even just 1H&S ulti every now and then would do it. But here is the thing. They can do nothing but keep using stuff to protect themselves with and to keep their block up. Using offensive abilities while blocking will drain them really fast.

So again, its not the perma blockers that are hard to deal with, its the ones that know when to drop block and that pushes you too. As well that 48 stamina per .25s requires 100p into Shadow Ward, 3 block cost reduction glyphs, absorb magicka and 5 pieces of alteration mastery. They would be giving up A LOT. People can block for a very long time, yes, but not permanently if pushed. That new Cp passives would break them really fast too.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

All I know is this: if they were to change it PvE tanks would have a stroke.

Minno

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

All I know is this: if they were to change it PvE tanks would have a stroke.

Could change s+b mitigations to only work on pve mobs. Similar to how they added a buff for extra DMG on trial bosses, except it will do 10% mitigation when hit by trial bosses. Then you effectively nerfed s+b pvp block tanks and PvP blockdens using their broken absorb.

The only thing left would be to buff non-mobility classes with interesting mobilty sources outside of vampire and a few ways to ignore block to create an XYZ fight condition where it becomes like chess instead. This way the mobility+ snares help counter zergs, the unblocked spells help against sturdy blockers, and classes can now try to give up a defensive set for a utility set to create interesting builds. Oh and rebalance the power creep from CP.

WreckfulAbandon

ak_pvp wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Why would anyone have a problem with extreme tank permablock builds that hit like wet noodle? In a perfectly balanced Utopian world of ESO PVP there would certainly be room and utility for those kind of builds, as well as squishy builds that do amazing burst damage, and then everybody else falling somewhere in between.

Most people only have problem with builds that are both extremely tanky and dealing high damage output at the same time. This recent patch attempted to address that by nerfing some aspects of heavy armor.

I would propose to go further by putting light and medium on a higher damage tier compared to heavy by adding spell damage buff to light, physical penetration buff to medium, and making all of the armor passives scale higher when wearing 7/7 of that armor type.

That would result in light armor users with shields having an advantage over the other two, so shield size of dampen magic and hardened ward also need to be reduced a bit so either of those abilities would max out around 22k PVE / 11k PVP or so when you have 50k max magicka and 7/7 light.

That would bring us closer to that ideal scenario where there are squishy light and medium builds dealing massive burst damage, some extreme tank heavy armor builds, and then everybody else in between.

On the other hand, if you are not complaining about true "permablock" low damage RP Super Tank builds like Hattori Hanzo, Escorpiao Noturno etc, but instead complaining about average magicka DKs who block a little and also deal damage, those are much easier to kill. First of all they have relatively little stamina. Just cc them a few times, hit them with dots and channels like templar jabs, rapid strikes, bow ulti etc and they are out of stam.

If they give med better sets, better dodge and passives. (Light is fine.) Make blocking in PvP multiplicative, and tone down shields. Then armour will be fine.

Then add dynamic ulti+abilities, remove AoE caps and fix classes. Hey presto. PvP is fixed.

The only place I find issues with block tanks are in BGs, because they ruin the entire point by sitting on relics/chaos balls. In openworld they are ignorable.

Medium doesnt need better passives, it needs better sets. And not even way better than sets now, just a little bone. Lol I know medium builds that do insane dmg. Shields are fine. Even permablocking is fine as long as you can't do a ton of damage and/or heals at the same time (not the case right now)

Seriously though, the problem is not shields with no mitigation, but people making glass cannon builds hit them for 1k or 2k a hit then turn around and burst them down in 1 or 2 GCD

Vizier

Blocking has already had tons of nerfs and changes to it.

Question... How does one Perma-Block when there is no stam generation while blocking?

I don't think the issue with some players being able to take a beating from 10 plus other players is blocking. Pretty sure it's not blocking that is making them survive.

Veg

Vizier wrote: »

Blocking has already had tons of nerfs and changes to it.

Question... How does one Perma-Block when there is no stam generation while blocking?

I don't think the issue with some players being able to take a beating from 10 plus other players is blocking. Pretty sure it's not blocking that is making them survive.

This is correct. you still take damage while blocking. With 2-3 good stam builds attacking you, you will take more than enough damage to die in under 8 seconds. It's the builds that can keep block up without sacrificing their self healing that survive.

MDK is the most popular for this because it's class has the highest demand for self healing while blocking. Literally every pvp mDK relies on it. I see tons of "tanks" in bg's now that have 40k+ health and die in 3 seconds because they think they can heal with just vigor.

The biggest nerf to these few tanks that have the sustain and healing would be to make a different playstyle viable. The only class that can pull of that "perma blocking" and crazy healing is the mDK. Isn't it weird that they are also the only class without a single movement mechanic?

Supply and demand...

jk lets nerf blocking and healing again because that always works and never complicates things further.

Ragnarock41

Only real case where a permablocker is a thread is a magDk encounter.
everything else is just a waste of time.

Derra

_Salty_ wrote: »

Mihael wrote: »

_Salty_ wrote: »

Solution for perma block is walk away. You aren't supposed to be able to pew pew pew everything.

The whole point of pvp is to be able to fight and kill other players lol

That might be why you play but I assure you not everyone plays like that. Some people love to play healers and tanks in PvP. They all have a role. This isn't Call of Duty or Halo. The TTK in this game is already quick for every class except block tanks. Block tanks really only kill noobs.

What is the role of a blocktank in esos pvp @_Salty_ ? In other games mechanics like bodyguard, blocking for allies or intercepting attacks existed.
However in eso?
The only mechanic is guard - which does not really justify bringing a blocktank. You can guard with hybrids just as good.

So what´s the purpose of having a blocktank other than to annoy people if we´re being really honest? I don´t think there is one.

I don´t think having builds purely to annoy people for the sake if diversity is doing a game any good.

ak_pvp

Derra wrote: »

_Salty_ wrote: »

Mihael wrote: »

_Salty_ wrote: »

Solution for perma block is walk away. You aren't supposed to be able to pew pew pew everything.

The whole point of pvp is to be able to fight and kill other players lol

That might be why you play but I assure you not everyone plays like that. Some people love to play healers and tanks in PvP. They all have a role. This isn't Call of Duty or Halo. The TTK in this game is already quick for every class except block tanks. Block tanks really only kill noobs.

What is the role of a blocktank in esos pvp @_Salty_ ? In other games mechanics like bodyguard, blocking for allies or intercepting attacks existed.
However in eso?
The only mechanic is guard - which does not really justify bringing a blocktank. You can guard with hybrids just as good.

So what´s the purpose of having a blocktank other than to annoy people if we´re being really honest? I don´t think there is one.

I don´t think having builds purely to annoy people for the sake if diversity is doing a game any good.

People run blocktanks so they don't get zerged down in 1vx situations. Unfortunately that is annoying to solo or smaller group players. Its especially bad in BGs.

Again another reason for dynamic combat.

Thogard

The counter to a permablock build is /danceredguard

Tormy wrote: »

Permablock builds aren't an issue tbh as they do zero damage lol

wheem_ESO wrote: »

I think there's a disconnect between some of the posters here. Some think of "permablockers" as solely those players who have 40k+ hit points, and do next to no damage or healing as they run around in Cyrodiil. Others of us are mostly referring to the people in Battlegrounds who are healing for 500k+ per match (self healing does not count at all on the scoreboard, by the way), while spending virtually 100% of their in-combat time holding block.

These permablocking healers are typically at least in a duo, if not a full premade, and are sometimes incorporating things like Guard as well. 'Course, these players can be extremely effective in solo queueing too, depending on which random teammates they get and/or the game mode. A permablocker that can do significant amounts of healing is quite an annoying target in Chaosball, especially since there are many games where the third team is going to be targeting me as I'm targeting the ball carrier.

The way I see it, if some player is going to be able to make most of my attacks do <= 1k damage, that should be an extremely temporary state of affairs - not the entire Battleground match.

Agreed, but I think the bigger culprit here is guard, not permablock. I’m amazed nobody has started a nerf thread about it. I personally would like to see blocking disabled if you are guarding someone. Or the removal of double damage mitigation.

Wheem are you PC NA? You’re one of the only guys who posts about BGs whose name I don’t recognize

paulsimonps

Derra wrote: »

_Salty_ wrote: »

Mihael wrote: »

_Salty_ wrote: »

Solution for perma block is walk away. You aren't supposed to be able to pew pew pew everything.

The whole point of pvp is to be able to fight and kill other players lol

That might be why you play but I assure you not everyone plays like that. Some people love to play healers and tanks in PvP. They all have a role. This isn't Call of Duty or Halo. The TTK in this game is already quick for every class except block tanks. Block tanks really only kill noobs.

What is the role of a blocktank in esos pvp @_Salty_ ? In other games mechanics like bodyguard, blocking for allies or intercepting attacks existed.
However in eso?
The only mechanic is guard - which does not really justify bringing a blocktank. You can guard with hybrids just as good.

So what´s the purpose of having a blocktank other than to annoy people if we´re being really honest? I don´t think there is one.

I don´t think having builds purely to annoy people for the sake if diversity is doing a game any good.

My tank build I ran with in PvP had this purpose. Stand in the open, first in the line or in the middle of breaches and bridges. Soak damage and CHAIN IN EVERYONE. Be it with my DK with Unrelenting grip or with my Warden and Frozen gate, and I always combined it with Swarm mother. I did that and also used Talons or Griping Shards. Pulling someone out from their group to then see them get instantly nuked was very rewarding. As well, though many don't do it any more, I did also use Reflective scales and combined it with Spell Wall, obviously spell wall is popular in general but anyway. So stand in the open, be a target, pull in everyone to me, keep them close to me and reflect and soak up damage. It is a lot more effective then people might think. And in long keep fights its great cause I pull people out so far they can't be rezed by their friend. Wardens are especially good at this since the Frozen gates range is so fricking long. But yea, that is what I do with my tank in PvP.

wheem_ESO

Thogard wrote: »

Wheem are you PC NA? You’re one of the only guys who posts about BGs whose name I don’t recognize

Yes, I'm on PC NA, and we've played together a bit The characters I've done a worthwhile amount of PvP on are Baleros, Govran, and Dymek (though not so much lately with the latter 2).

As I've griped about for a while now, I think Battleground PvP often finds itself on one extreme end or the other; either people explode in couple seconds with no real way to survive, or they're borderline unkillable. Permablocking is one of the things that contributes a lot to the latter extreme, and it's exacerbated even more by Guard.

If burst damage was brought down to a more reasonable level, and permablocking was simultaneously nerfed, it's possible that Guard wouldn't be as much of an issue. It'd still be strong for sure, but you wouldn't have cases where a guarded DPS player is bursting down random pugs in 2-3 seconds, while having enough Guard-mitigation and a permablocking healer teammate that can ensure that the same thing never happens to them.