Solution for permablock?

DeHei

I really like the diversity, but i agree, that this permablockbuilds can be really hard, while doing good damage.

Here is a possible solution for this to use block again more as tactical element and not all the time:

A stacking penalty for permablock, which increase the block costs just for PvP (adding that with battlespirit). In this way PvE would not be harder with this. I mean something like every 3 sec the blockcosts increase 100% (after 3 100% higher costs, after 6 sec 200% higher costs and so on..), while holding block and give a 3 sec cooldown to reset this increased costs!

Pls write in comments, what you think about this idea

_Salty_

Solution for perma block is walk away. You aren't supposed to be able to pew pew pew everything.

gabriebe

Just use fear, negates, stay at range. Permablock only works when there's enough suckers to come close to you and try to bash you down.

Sacredx

Blocking is a defensive mechanic and people that spec into it end up being nothing more than sponges on the field. Organised groups use perma block tanks for ulti regen so they end up causing more harm than good with their spec.

Mihael

_Salty_ wrote: »

Solution for perma block is walk away. You aren't supposed to be able to pew pew pew everything.

The whole point of pvp is to be able to fight and kill other players lol

_Salty_

Mihael wrote: »

_Salty_ wrote: »

Solution for perma block is walk away. You aren't supposed to be able to pew pew pew everything.

The whole point of pvp is to be able to fight and kill other players lol

That might be why you play but I assure you not everyone plays like that. Some people love to play healers and tanks in PvP. They all have a role. This isn't Call of Duty or Halo. The TTK in this game is already quick for every class except block tanks. Block tanks really only kill noobs.

gabriebe

Good tanks in PvP are there for crowd control. They help you push inside a keep. They talon people into oils. They take the aggro from 5-10 people so the rest of the team can kill em easier. They're only trolls if you take the bait.

Besides, plenty of people play more than one character. Sometimes I feel like killing, other times healing, other times tanking.

ak_pvp

I am one to believe that one player should be able to hold off a zerg and deal decent damage to them. But that should be scaling. You shouldn't be immortal vs one player who is ultimately screwed.

Thing like chaosball are *** due to the permablock.

paulsimonps

If you truly want to find a "solution" for permablocking then think of something that is NOT battlespirit, the devs hate putting stuff in that thing and will most likely never consider your suggestion if your suggestion is to add something new to it. So if you want to change blocking then think of something that will fix PvP but will not break PvE.

wheem_ESO

Perma-blocking needs to be nerfed into the ground, and most damage output needs to come down some as well. Time-To-Kill in Battlegrounds was often on one extreme end or another prior to this most recent patch, but it's absolutely worse now with CP. It's almost always either someone exploding within a couple seconds, or they perma-block and are nearly unkillable. Trying to kill a flag carrier, chaos ball carrier, or enemy healer when most of your abilities are hitting for <= 1k is a lesson in frustration.

It's especially "fun" when the perma-blocker is either a Mag DK with enormous pressure damage, or a healer who's got guard on the bursty damage dealer that's wrecking every non-guarded, non-permablocker that gets within range. Maybe those of you that like Cyrodiil can get by with simply running away and ignoring them, but that's often not an option in Battlegrounds.

Qbiken

Don´t like the idea really, and ZOS rarely touch battle spirit. The issue with permablocking is bigger than just the blocking part. I made a thread about it that sums it up quite well:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/375444/about-permablocking/p1

DeHei

Just was an idea. I realise that more guys like permablock, so pls dont whine anytime again about it!

Arthg

Isn't that more of a CP issue?
I don't see permablocking as a problem on Sotha Sil, where blocking works as intended (imho).

DeHei

Arthg wrote: »

Isn't that more of a CP issue?
I don't see permablocking as a problem on Sotha Sil, where blocking works as intended (imho).

On no CP its harder, but work there too.

WillhelmBlack

Knight Slayer and Infused Oblivion enchants. yw

lazerlaz

I've mentioned this idea recently and it's a FANTASTIC idea. Increased cost per consecutive block in PVP is a good start. Still tanky as hell initially but it comes at a cost down the line.

Why not? Dodge has it. Streak has it.

But that's not all! Let's go more in depth shall we?

Generally when you spec tank you sacrifice something. Usually it's healing or damage, many times both. NOT IN ESO! Woohoo!

With CP and new sets you can have the HOLY TRIFECTA for pvp!

It's the "I want to tank, damage, heal, take away skill, give me everything, screw mechanics." mentality.

Something needs to be done, everybody knows it,

Unfortunately though, even if these kinds of changes were made, it might still not be enough.

olsborg

_Salty_ wrote: »

Solution for perma block is walk away. You aren't supposed to be able to pew pew pew everything.

Just as you arent supposed to be able to block block block everything either.

DeHei wrote: »

I really like the diversity, but i agree, that this permablockbuilds can be really hard, while doing good damage.

Here is a possible solution for this to use block again more as tactical element and not all the time:

A stacking penalty for permablock, which increase the block costs just for PvP (adding that with battlespirit). In this way PvE would not be harder with this. I mean something like every 3 sec the blockcosts increase 100% (after 3 100% higher costs, after 6 sec 200% higher costs and so on..), while holding block and give a 3 sec cooldown to reset this increased costs!

Pls write in comments, what you think about this idea

I like the idea of stacking block cost. 3s might be a bit much on the reset part.

Asmael

What I think of it?

I think it's a band-aid fix that does not properly address the issue, since even non-permablockers suffer from it. Does it solve the issue? Yes, but it also makes block even weaker for non-permablock specs and punishes reactive blocking, which is what we want to promote.

The first problem is how block cost reduction is calculated, since flat cost reduction glyphs are accounted for after the multiplier reductions, making block cost decrease faster and faster for an even investment (depending on the initial investment), which is the exact opposite of soft caps. Calculating flat cost reductions first, then multipliers would change the way it is without hurting non-permablockers. This is also inconsistent with the way abilities' cost is calculated.

The second problem is that the fix needs to take into account both CP and non CP - permablock builds do exist on non CP, but CPs are a large part of the issue, because they provide 20%+ block cost reduction alone. Block is hardly a great defensive tool on non CP, but this can be changed by reducing the overall cost of block while reducing the potency of the block CP star, reducing the gap between the two.

The third problem is that flat resource returns is the only real way to make a build using block with decent sustain, hence why DKs and wardens have an easier time sustaining it. It has literally no synergy whatsoever with light armor builds using frost staves or medium armor builds using SnB. While it's possible to have a block tank on a sorcerer, nightblade or templar, it is nowhere as effective as DKs and wardens, because stamina regen (magicka for frost staves) is a non-factor in it, thus, reintroducing stamina (magicka) regen while blocking - possibly diminished, would help increase the number of builds that can effectively participate in it.

The fourth and last problem is how prohibitive blocking as a whole became if you don't spec into it, since the cost has been doubled with Morrowind as an attempt to stop permablocking - with the results we know today - dodge roll is a more effective defense if you use it sparingly. Due to the difference in the number of hits taken per second in PvE and PvP, this is probably where a solution could be found. We could for instance (after changing the block cost formulae and making it impossible to reduce the block of cost below 200 stamina) remove the max number of times you can be charged stamina per second, making the block cost scale based on the number of hits.

This would essentially:

• Reduce the difference in terms of block between CP and non CP
• Promote blocking as a valid defense even if you don't spec into it
• Reduce the minimum block cost possible, making direct permablocking harder as a whole
• Incentivize other setups than DKs and Wardens as tanks
• Drastically reduce the sustain of permablockers in massively outnumbered situations

The biggest issues:

• It would take a lot of math, time and testing to determine the edge cases
• Due to the above point, nerfing blocking as a whole for everyone is an easy fix and the likely solution to be implemented

/rant

DeHei

The resson of my idea was use the blockbutton just as tactical element. We see guys, who use block 100% of time in fight..
Block should just be used, when you want to survive much damage in critically situations and just for a short time. This would not be a penalty for common PvP player, because you dont need to use block longer then few seconds to survive this situations. But using it allready to dodge critically situations is just to strong. Not all classes have hard CC, which works while the opponent uses block..

But its just my opinion. Blocking + strong heals is one of the strongest synnergy in game and one of the main reasons, why experienced groups cant be defeated...

killimandrosb16_ESO

Maybe the biggest problem is "shadow ward" ? Would there be perma blocking tanks without it? Im just curious and throwing out a question here

Maulkin

_Salty_ wrote: »

Solution for perma block is walk away. You aren't supposed to be able to pew pew pew everything.

Yep, I'll walk away from the guy carrying a Relic or a Chaosball in BGs.

Why didn't I think of that before, you're a genius!!!

UppGRAYxDD

It's a real easy fix...just add increased block cost to the battle spirit debuff...no more perma blockers in cyrodil or duels and the PVE fanboys won't riot

paulsimonps

Want to also add that swapping bars technically drops block, but at such a low time span that it won't do much for damage mitigation but would reset the timer on this idea.

Arthg wrote: »

Isn't that more of a CP issue?
I don't see permablocking as a problem on Sotha Sil, where blocking works as intended (imho).

Its possible to block for long periods of times in no CP but impossible to permanently block, and even if you did you would not be able to do anything else but block and you would eventually die anyway. I prefer no CP PvP, sad about the BG change.

krathos

paulsimonps wrote: »

Want to also add that swapping bars technically drops block, but at such a low time span that it won't do much for damage mitigation but would reset the timer on this idea.

Arthg wrote: »

Isn't that more of a CP issue?
I don't see permablocking as a problem on Sotha Sil, where blocking works as intended (imho).

Its possible to block for long periods of times in no CP but impossible to permanently block, and even if you did you would not be able to do anything else but block and you would eventually die anyway. I prefer no CP PvP, sad about the BG change.

@paulsimonps i agree No-CP PvP was amazing in Homestead. All they had to do was fix the proc set issue back then and No-CP would have been the best PvP this game has had in years. But then morrowind came and No-CP got hit harder with the sustain nerfs than CP did when it was completely unnecessary. The sustain changes combined with the new diminishing returns for CP drove people out of the No-CP campaign and now it's a shell of its former self. NoCP rarely lagged even when pop locked. Balance was better. Broken mechanics such as perma-blocking or massive BoL spamming was non-existent. I really wish we could go back to those days with a few tweaks. The CP system is the biggest issue in this game.

DeHei

krathos wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Want to also add that swapping bars technically drops block, but at such a low time span that it won't do much for damage mitigation but would reset the timer on this idea.

Arthg wrote: »

Isn't that more of a CP issue?
I don't see permablocking as a problem on Sotha Sil, where blocking works as intended (imho).

Its possible to block for long periods of times in no CP but impossible to permanently block, and even if you did you would not be able to do anything else but block and you would eventually die anyway. I prefer no CP PvP, sad about the BG change.

@paulsimonps i agree No-CP PvP was amazing in Homestead. All they had to do was fix the proc set issue back then and No-CP would have been the best PvP this game has had in years. But then morrowind came and No-CP got hit harder with the sustain nerfs than CP did when it was completely unnecessary. The sustain changes combined with the new diminishing returns for CP drove people out of the No-CP campaign and now it's a shell of its former self. NoCP rarely lagged even when pop locked. Balance was better. Broken mechanics such as perma-blocking or massive BoL spamming was non-existent. I really wish we could go back to those days with a few tweaks. The CP system is the biggest issue in this game.

Yeah before this changes came, the game looked very balanced for PvP. But we need to look forwards now...

Dr_Ganknstein

Sacredx wrote: »

Blocking is a defensive mechanic and people that spec into it end up being nothing more than sponges on the field. Organised groups use perma block tanks for ulti regen so they end up causing more harm than good with their spec.

Lol so true. We kept calling this out the other night to use the enemy permablocker to build ultimate.

SanTii.92

There is no "permablock" build that does good damage, period.

Joy_Division

Out of about 30 players I come across in Cyrodiil, 1 is a "perma-block" tank that I just walk away from. Probably 3-4 others try to "perma-block" but have bad builds or aren't very good and just die.

Those players who are hard to kill, yet actually dangerous offensively, are not just relying on block. They are using multiple defensive tactics and skills to stay alive.

Apache_Kid

_Salty_ wrote: »

Solution for perma block is walk away. You aren't supposed to be able to pew pew pew everything.

You aren't supposed to be able to survive everything.

Qbiken

Joy_Division wrote: »

Out of about 30 players I come across in Cyrodiil, 1 is a "perma-block" tank that I just walk away from. Probably 3-4 others try to "perma-block" but have bad builds or aren't very good and just die.

Those players who are hard to kill, yet actually dangerous offensively, are not just relying on block. They are using multiple defensive tactics and skills to stay alive.

Thank you xD

paulsimonps

Joy_Division wrote: »

Out of about 30 players I come across in Cyrodiil, 1 is a "perma-block" tank that I just walk away from. Probably 3-4 others try to "perma-block" but have bad builds or aren't very good and just die.

Those players who are hard to kill, yet actually dangerous offensively, are not just relying on block. They are using multiple defensive tactics and skills to stay alive.

Indeed, the permablockers are not dangerous, the people that can block for a long time but know when and how to drop it to also go on the offensive are those that are truly dangerous. So its not permablocking, its those that block a lot but not all the time and have offensive capabilities everyone truly hates.