IS THE HEAVY ARMOR NERF ENOUGH?

Shadzilla

Caps in title because it stands out, and so many people love it.

Banana

Seperate pvp from pve. Ruin separately please

Sixty5

Yes, explain.

I am assuming that when you mean heavy armour nerf you are talking about the removal of wrath as well as the loss of shuffle.

In that case, I would say that it does look to be enough. The changes should cut down PVP burst by 1-2k damage, which in the end is pretty reasonable, as well as increasing the amount of damage that they take.

The changes also mean that snares become a strong counter to heavy builds, either forcing them to open themselves up by running a gap closer or by removing a strong burst heal from their arsenal.

Medium could still use some kind of buff in terms of defensive utility in PVP, but I think the changes to heavy are enough to move it out of the place it was in, and in a more healthy direction.

Drummerx04

Careful. Any time a suggestion is given to the Devs, Wrobel finds something new to buff into insanity or nerf for no reason.

SameMeteor26

No, explain.

I believe heavy armor should purely be about tankyness and health. There should be no damage buffs or resource regen buffs ( buffs as in Passives and some armor traits). You shouldn't be able to almost have the same resource management with heavy armor as you do with light and medium. Just my opinion though.

Shadzilla

No, explain.

Banana wrote: »

Seperate pvp from pve. Ruin separately please

Lol! I don't think anyone is upset with the permablocking, insane sustaining, disgusting burst damaging, hard to kill PVE players...

Riddari

Yes, explain.

Can I get my blocking passive back? Really helps being a tank.

Woeler

More caps topics please

Wing

Yes, explain.

ZOS just slowly dragged its balls over DK's face this update, back and forth, right across the face, slowly, a few times.

Zvorgin

Riddari wrote: »

Can I get my blocking passive back? Really helps being a tank.

It's still there, just in S&B now.

Shadzilla

No, explain.

Woeler wrote: »

More caps topics please

Shadzilla wrote: »

Caps in title because it stands out, and so many people love it.

I know right! Stands out so nicely!

NyassaV

Yes, explain.

It's enough for now. This needed to happen awhile ago. HA in no way should increase damage done

Shadzilla

No, explain.

Wing wrote: »

ZOS just slowly dragged its balls over DK's face this update, back and forth, right across the face, slowly, a few times.

Ironic. DK's did that exact same move to every other class in the entire game for like 2 years straight, starting in beta.

Malic

Yes, explain.

Its plenty. The problem was med and light under performed.

Changing shuffle was huge, that should have happened patches ago and then buffed for people who use 5 med armor. That buff would have made med potent and would have given plenty of build options that would have negated, or lessened the need to nerf HA.

But, this is an MMO and the treadmill has to be in place. So the changes are almost needed to keep people grinding, I get it.

GreenSoup2HoT

No, explain.

200 damage means nothing. we could use fundamental changes to blocking. we need cost stacking for perma-blocking.

WillhelmBlack

Yes, explain.

Perfect!

Urza1234

Sixty5 wrote: »

I am assuming that when you mean heavy armour nerf you are talking about the removal of wrath as well as the loss of shuffle.

In that case, I would say that it does look to be enough. The changes should cut down PVP burst by 1-2k damage, which in the end is pretty reasonable, as well as increasing the amount of damage that they take.

The changes also mean that snares become a strong counter to heavy builds, either forcing them to open themselves up by running a gap closer or by removing a strong burst heal from their arsenal.

Medium could still use some kind of buff in terms of defensive utility in PVP, but I think the changes to heavy are enough to move it out of the place it was in, and in a more healthy direction.

A small buff to Medium dodge roll perhaps?

zaria

Banana wrote: »

Seperate pvp from pve. Ruin separately please

None use heavy in PvE outside of tanks, except chest or helmet for undaunted + extra protection.

Xsorus

They shouldn’t of nerfed based on players who have a poor understanding of game mechanics

Sixty5

Yes, explain.

Urza1234 wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

I am assuming that when you mean heavy armour nerf you are talking about the removal of wrath as well as the loss of shuffle.

In that case, I would say that it does look to be enough. The changes should cut down PVP burst by 1-2k damage, which in the end is pretty reasonable, as well as increasing the amount of damage that they take.

The changes also mean that snares become a strong counter to heavy builds, either forcing them to open themselves up by running a gap closer or by removing a strong burst heal from their arsenal.

Medium could still use some kind of buff in terms of defensive utility in PVP, but I think the changes to heavy are enough to move it out of the place it was in, and in a more healthy direction.

A small buff to Medium dodge roll perhaps?

I had thought about a possible extension of the dodge frames with medium armour, but I'd rather not promote the endless dodgeroll playstyle

Ragnarock41

No, explain.

NO, Im addicted, more nerfs!

Vapirko

Yes, explain.

Yes. The removal of the ability to use shuffle along with the wrath passive removal was enough. BUT! What also need to happen is that sets like fury, and seventh need to have their damage toned way down. That was always the problem. Move in the direction of sets like knights errant which make sense to the sustain purpose of heavy. But that’s not a nerf to heavy armor skill/passives. So yes he nerf to heavy armor in that sense was enough. I also advocate bringing Black Rose back to its former glory.

Solariken

Yes, explain.

Vapirko wrote: »

Yes. The removal of the ability to use shuffle along with the wrath passive removal was enough. BUT! What also need to happen is that sets like fury, and seventh need to have their damage toned way down. That was always the problem. Move in the direction of sets like knights errant which make sense to the sustain purpose of heavy. But that’s not a nerf to heavy armor skill/passives. So yes he nerf to heavy armor in that sense was enough. I also advocate bringing Black Rose back to its former glory.

Yeah, Black Rose should be restored! Now that Constitution and other variables have been dealt with, the original 5pc would be appropriate.

Izaki

Heavy Armor itself isn't the problem. The passives are very good but not OP. Just like Light Armor passives.

The problem is: the sets. Especially Ravager, Armor of Truth, Seventh Legion and Fury. How on earth are the first 2 even Heavy Armor? They should be medium. Seventh Legion and Fury are in line with the Brawler playstyle which fits the Heavy theme, but they still over the top. Why are they over the top? Because not a single medium armor set gives that much damage potential (not even close to be honest).

This leads us to the next problem. Why are all the medium armor sets, aside from Bone Pirate, terrible? There's literally only 1 Medium armor set that procs weapon damage: Senche. But its unusable by most builds since the buff duration is way too short. If there were medium armor sets like Ravager or Veiled Heritance, medium would already be much more popular.

This leads us to the last and biggest problem: medium armor passives suck. Sneak radius? Why? Replace this with a proper defensive passive.

Boom.

Urza1234

Sixty5 wrote: »

I had thought about a possible extension of the dodge frames with medium armour, but I'd rather not promote the endless dodgeroll playstyle

I'd also happily take either Phys Pen, Stam Cost Reduction, a buff to Evasion now that its Med only, or even idk some passive movement speed.

Maybe a passive chance to dodge projectiles instead would be nice.

Gilliamtherogue

No, explain.

Izaki wrote: »

Heavy Armor itself isn't the problem. The passives are very good but not OP. Just like Light Armor passives.

The problem is: the sets. Especially Ravager, Armor of Truth, Seventh Legion and Fury. How on earth are the first 2 even Heavy Armor? They should be medium. Seventh Legion and Fury are in line with the Brawler playstyle which fits the Heavy theme, but they still over the top. Why are they over the top? Because not a single medium armor set gives that much damage potential (not even close to be honest).

This leads us to the next problem. Why are all the medium armor sets, aside from Bone Pirate, terrible? There's literally only 1 Medium armor set that procs weapon damage: Senche. But its unusable by most builds since the buff duration is way too short. If there were medium armor sets like Ravager or Veiled Heritance, medium would already be much more popular.

This leads us to the last and biggest problem: medium armor passives suck. Sneak radius? Why? Replace this with a proper defensive passive.

Boom.

Been saying to just put blade cloak's 25% aoe mit in place of sneak radius. Would solve a lot of medium's issues in PvP, while helping weapons other than dual wield to be defensively viable in end game PvE.

Sixty5

Yes, explain.

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

Heavy Armor itself isn't the problem. The passives are very good but not OP. Just like Light Armor passives.

The problem is: the sets. Especially Ravager, Armor of Truth, Seventh Legion and Fury. How on earth are the first 2 even Heavy Armor? They should be medium. Seventh Legion and Fury are in line with the Brawler playstyle which fits the Heavy theme, but they still over the top. Why are they over the top? Because not a single medium armor set gives that much damage potential (not even close to be honest).

This leads us to the next problem. Why are all the medium armor sets, aside from Bone Pirate, terrible? There's literally only 1 Medium armor set that procs weapon damage: Senche. But its unusable by most builds since the buff duration is way too short. If there were medium armor sets like Ravager or Veiled Heritance, medium would already be much more popular.

This leads us to the last and biggest problem: medium armor passives suck. Sneak radius? Why? Replace this with a proper defensive passive.

Boom.

Been saying to just put blade cloak's 25% aoe mit in place of sneak radius. Would solve a lot of medium's issues in PvP, while helping weapons other than dual wield to be defensively viable in end game PvE.

I almost feel like that could be a bit much of a buff.

It would expedite a lot of the annoyance of builds that stack shuffle along with spamming dodge roll by seriously mitigating one of the harder counters to that playstyle.

I will admit that it does seem like a better solution than doing something like adding dodge chance per piece or increasing dodge frames on roll.

Having played a round with blade cloak a bit myself, I can honestly say that 25% might be too much for just a passive buff, given how strong it feels.

Urza1234

I think we can all agree though that the improved Sneak Radius is a bit weak compared to any of the LA passives.

Vaoh

No, explain.

Nope. I'm glad Wrobel tried but it won't work lol.

That 200-300 weapon damage boost is not what makes Heavy Armor so strong. Being able to survive the damage of a big burst and heal up quicker makes it so using Heavy Armor will remain a must. You can't do that with other armors. Much of the damage taken is too much for anything but Heavy Armor to survive through.

If you dont agree that's totally fine, but you'll see us having this same conversation about Heavy Armor being too strong again next patch.

Then again that would be the point of Heavy Armor..... this brings us to a situation where Medium Armor and possibly even Light Armor need buffs, right? I just don't even want to think about this issue anymore tbh. PvP is so screwed atm balance-wise that I can't even begin to discuss the direction they should take anymore. In the past, it would have been easy to fix balance, but bad decisions have scarred ESO for over a year now. They've dug the hole so deep that fixing it now is almost impossible. So many playstyles are completely dead and the PvP population is so low is makes me sad to think about it.

All I can truly ask for is to fix game performance and NOT screw up PvE like what they have done to PvP.

Gilliamtherogue

No, explain.

Sixty5 wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

Heavy Armor itself isn't the problem. The passives are very good but not OP. Just like Light Armor passives.

The problem is: the sets. Especially Ravager, Armor of Truth, Seventh Legion and Fury. How on earth are the first 2 even Heavy Armor? They should be medium. Seventh Legion and Fury are in line with the Brawler playstyle which fits the Heavy theme, but they still over the top. Why are they over the top? Because not a single medium armor set gives that much damage potential (not even close to be honest).

This leads us to the next problem. Why are all the medium armor sets, aside from Bone Pirate, terrible? There's literally only 1 Medium armor set that procs weapon damage: Senche. But its unusable by most builds since the buff duration is way too short. If there were medium armor sets like Ravager or Veiled Heritance, medium would already be much more popular.

This leads us to the last and biggest problem: medium armor passives suck. Sneak radius? Why? Replace this with a proper defensive passive.

Boom.

Been saying to just put blade cloak's 25% aoe mit in place of sneak radius. Would solve a lot of medium's issues in PvP, while helping weapons other than dual wield to be defensively viable in end game PvE.

I almost feel like that could be a bit much of a buff.

It would expedite a lot of the annoyance of builds that stack shuffle along with spamming dodge roll by seriously mitigating one of the harder counters to that playstyle.

I will admit that it does seem like a better solution than doing something like adding dodge chance per piece or increasing dodge frames on roll.

Having played a round with blade cloak a bit myself, I can honestly say that 25% might be too much for just a passive buff, given how strong it feels.

Passive dodge chance should just go away. There is no skilled interaction in passively negating an attack due to chance.

I'm also not against tethering the 25% aoe damage mit to a reward mechanic, such as actively avoiding damage for short periods of time (to fit into dodge roll play).
- I.e; ~Per Piece of Medium Armor Worn~ : Gain 4% damage mitigation against Area of Effect attacks if you have not taken damage in the last 3(?) seconds, for 3(?) seconds. If you did not take damage during the buff's duration, this effect is refreshed.

This helps medium armor builds feel rewarded for actually dodging damage and utilizing the playstyle/lore of medium properly; mobility and grace. It also gives a grace period where if you are attacked by an undodgeable attack, you have a short duration in which you retain some of your mitigation, but also has a set limit where a player who is specialized to counter you can do so. Obviously values are up to balance, but it would help medium armor have a unique ability to stand out defensively like the other two armors, and also help decision making vs just going 5-1-1, or going all 7 medium.

But alas, this is about heavy armor. I fear I have derailed the thread with my Stamina bias too long

Urza1234

I think based on the PVP Stam community being considerably more upset than, for instance, Sorc shield spammers, the problem is that Med doesnt feel tanky enough for a melee playstyle.

I personally think it would be neat if they received a small base chance to dodge projectiles, though dodge frames make all dodge mechanics somewhat iffy to balance.
Perhaps then Med simply doesnt receive enough baseline Resists, perhaps both the Med and Heavy armor classes would feel more appropriate if their base resists were tuned up a bit.