ARE U HAPPY NOW ZOS IS DOING SOMETHINGInterview With Miat Lets Talk Add Ons, Cheating and Q/A

Yiko · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

I really fail to see what you are trying to achieve with your little outburst.

Then you're really not trying hard enough. You probably only see what you want to see.

Some major things to keep in mind going going forward in this discussion:

- The current use of this addon is inarguably not cheating. To call it cheating in its current form is ignorant and disingenuous. It's perfectly fine to have a dialogue regarding whether or not ZOS should restrict their API, but to state that all users of this addon are cheaters is outright laughable and childish. This is ZOS' game. They decide the limitations of their API and how it is used. Even if you discount a bit and maintain that it is an exploit of unintended usage of the API, then it's been that way for about a year now? To put the blame on the players and addon creator is just silly.

- Which brings me to my next point.. To attack Miat for releasing and defending this addon is wrong for multiple reasons. I'm not saying that this is 100% the case, but it is possible that there were private addons with similar or better capabilities than Miat's addon making use of ZOS' available API. The fact that he has released this at all has shed some light onto addon capabilities. Knowledge of these capabilities lead to a dialogue between players and ZOS of what should or should not be allowable. If he had not released the addon, this conversation is not likely to have happened. To portray Miat as this egotistical mad scientist performing unethical experiments is hilarious. He is ridiculed for defending it. Consider his position. He knows more or less the limitations of ZOS' API. In regards to abilities like Dark Flare, Crystal Frags, and Snipe outside of stealth, yes, he COULD leave those out of the addon, but for the sake of consistency, he has included them. Now that other players have knowledge of what you can do in regards to the API, it would be much simpler for them to duplicate that desired notification. He has ensured that these features aren't held in private hands away from the masses by releasing his addon (fully-packaged) publicly.

- When the addon was released, it was during a time where stealth ganking was meta. Gankers were running Viper Sting, Selene's/Velidreth, and Clever Alchemist for the most part if I remember correctly, and Viper's Sting could crit and proc from range (due to a weird interaction with Poison glyph). Also, Stealth mechanics were more potent back then (more crit% damage + maybe others). The advantages of stealth were and still are FAR more than simply having the luxury of beginning a fight at your discretion and presumed advantage. Anyways, characters with less than 23k health would very likely die basically in less than a second without any kind of counterplay (read: counterPLAY, not counterBUILD) to any player sitting in stealth who could hit a sequence of 3 buttons. Skill levels were invalidated by in-game mechanics. There was no player vs. player. The individual that died might as well have been an NPC. In regards to build diversity, this immensely shifted players outside of stealth to Heavy Armor builds with 26k+ health in order to have a chance to survive these bursts (on top of the fact that Heavy Armor was also incredibly strong). It was essentially suicide to run a Medium Armor open world non-stealth build. This addon helped mitigate that. If I had to pick the lesser between two "evils," I would definitely pick the usage of this addon over being gimped from one or two invisible players. Think about who this addon affects and how it affects them. This addon benefits small scalers far more than it benefits zergers. Who is negatively impacted most by this addon? People who like to gank from stealth, spam Snipe, Dark Flare, and hard-cast Frags. When is the most appropriate time to use these abilities? When you outnumber your opponent and have freedom to cast. All of these can be bashed/interrupted and generally aren't recommendable in any type of "competitive" setting. I'm not saying that I support the API allowing all of these things to be trackable, I'm just pointing out the general types of players that are complaining the loudest about this addon. People who rely on numbers or stealth mechanics. Judging from the poll with ~75 % people thinking it's a cheat with ~25% thinking that it's not. I know this doesn't logically necessarily follow, but what percentage of the forum do you think zergs vs. small scales? More people play in larger groups, right? More people play casually, too. I think a certain degree of that would be reflected in the poll results.

Yubarius · October 2017

agegarton wrote: »

This thread defines the term “first world problems”. I’m sick and tired of these “cheater” posts.

I have been playing this game since the beta. I have logged more online hours than I’m prepared to post (you know..... in case my wife sees it), but I’m pretty clear that I have logged more hours than the vast majority of players. I have completed every single quest several times across about 16 alts and four accounts, spent huge amounts of time in PVP in Cyrodiil and in the Imperial City and Sewers, and I farm mats and resources for some pretty major trade.

I can safely say that not once - not one single time - have I been bothered by a bot, a Zerg, an add on user, a gold seller, or any so-called “cheat”. That’s not to say I haven’t seen all of the above, but as a grown-up I know when to say “it’s a game” and just move on. Experience not ruined.

Perhaps if you all spent more time just playing the game than whining like spoilt schoolgirls on these forums, you’d have a better time in Tamriel.

And her ladies and gentlemen is the "well it's just a game so shut up and stop crying post". We play to have fun and it's not fun to know that people out there have such a large advantage over you in certain scenarios because of a (my personal opinion) unfair addon/cheat.

DDuke · October 2017

Yiko wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I really fail to see what you are trying to achieve with your little outburst.

Then you're really not trying hard enough. You probably only see what you want to see.

Yeah, right back at ya.

I've provided quite clear rationale for everything and if the people defending this 3rd party cheat choose to ignore/not understand that it's on them - I've run out of different ways to explain obvious things and it's growing tiresome.

Yiko wrote: »

Some major things to keep in mind going going forward in this discussion:

- The current use of this addon is inarguably not cheating. To call it cheating in its current form is ignorant and disingenuous. It's perfectly fine to have a dialogue regarding whether or not ZOS should restrict their API, but to state that all users of this addon are cheaters is outright laughable and childish. This is ZOS' game. They decide the limitations of their API and how it is used. Even if you discount a bit and maintain that it is an exploit of unintended usage of the API, then it's been that way for about a year now? To put the blame on the players and addon creator is just silly.

Yeah, and Sharpened Maces/Double Mundus also remained in the game for months. I guess those weren't cheating/exploiting then?

Nobody is assigning blame on the players (I myself am one of the people using this cheat addon) or the addon creator - who would do that when half the playerbase is utilizing these cheats, just as they did with Sharpened Maces & Double Mundus etc.

But it is cheating. Cheating that ZOS doesn't care about.

Yiko wrote: »

- Which brings me to my next point.. To attack Miat for releasing and defending this addon is wrong for multiple reasons. I'm not saying that this is 100% the case, but it is possible that there were private addons with similar or better capabilities than Miat's addon making use of ZOS' available API. The fact that he has released this at all has shed some light onto addon capabilities. Knowledge of these capabilities lead to a dialogue between players and ZOS of what should or should not be allowable. If he had not released the addon, this conversation is not likely to have happened. To portray Miat as this egotistical mad scientist performing unethical experiments is hilarious. He is ridiculed for defending it. Consider his position. He knows more or less the limitations of ZOS' API. In regards to abilities like Dark Flare, Crystal Frags, and Snipe outside of stealth, yes, he COULD leave those out of the addon, but for the sake of consistency, he has included them. Now that other players have knowledge of what you can do in regards to the API, it would be much simpler for them to duplicate that desired notification. He has ensured that these features aren't held in private hands away from the masses by releasing his addon (fully-packaged) publicly.

Yeah, I don't think either he should be criticized for releasing this addon & making it public. But defending it? That's a different story - I have zero sympathy whatsoever towards people who defend & try to rationalize cheating.

Especially when said cheating is currently making the game unplayable for me & leaves me with one option if it isn't fixed: quit the game.

Yiko wrote: »

- When the addon was released, it was during a time where stealth ganking was meta. Gankers were running Viper Sting, Selene's/Velidreth, and Clever Alchemist for the most part if I remember correctly, and Viper's Sting could crit and proc from range (due to a weird interaction with Poison glyph). Also, Stealth mechanics were more potent back then (more crit% damage + maybe others). The advantages of stealth were and still are FAR more than simply having the luxury of beginning a fight at your discretion and presumed advantage.

Those issues lied with the proc sets, not stealth. Most people in this game don't even remember when stealth was actually powerful (even "op" to some extent).

Stealth now is a joke, a much weaker mechanic than in almost any other MMORPG I know.

Yiko wrote: »

Anyways, characters with less than 23k health would very likely die basically in less than a second without any kind of counterplay (read: counterPLAY, not counterBUILD) to any player sitting in stealth who could hit a sequence of 3 buttons. Skill levels were invalidated by in-game mechanics. There was no player vs. player. The individual that died might as well have been an NPC.

I've been playing this game since 2014 and I've never died to a ganker. Not on my relatively squishy medium stamblade, not on my heavy magplar.

The fact is that there are always ways to avoid (situational awareness) ganks or simply react to them in time before you die or even get hit (in case of ranged abilities).

Yiko wrote: »

In regards to build diversity, this immensely shifted players outside of stealth to Heavy Armor builds with 26k+ health in order to have a chance to survive these bursts (on top of the fact that Heavy Armor was also incredibly strong). It was essentially suicide to run a Medium Armor open world non-stealth build.

If you think this addon somehow magically made medium armor viable for open world non-stealth build, then I suggest you get Soul Assault combo'd by someone and come back with your thoughts.

As a medium armor player, I actually find the would-be gankers my easiest source of AP.

Yiko wrote: »

This addon helped mitigate that. If I had to pick the lesser between two "evils," I would definitely pick the usage of this addon over being gimped from one or two invisible players. Think about who this addon affects and how it affects them.

Yeah, could say the same to you.

Who does this addon affect? Bow builds, ranged Dark Flare builds, ranged builds in general. Builds that already struggle in the meta.
Whom it doesn't affect? Melee builds, the ones that are the meta.

You think it's fair to make the game unplayable to a whole large demographic simply because you & others like you dislike dying to builds that aren't even meta?

Those ranged builds (not talking about melee proc builds now) never made the game unplayable to anyone, yet people still feel "justified" to spit on them & drive those players to other games.

Disgraceful.

Yiko wrote: »

This addon benefits small scalers far more than it benefits zergers. Who is negatively impacted most by this addon? People who like to gank from stealth, spam Snipe, Dark Flare, and hard-cast Frags. When is the most appropriate time to use these abilities? When you outnumber your opponent and have freedom to cast. All of these can be bashed/interrupted and generally aren't recommendable in any type of "competitive" setting.

Bow has been viable in the past for both 1v1 & 1vX and could be again, if not for the existence of this addon. I'm still waiting for people to log on PTS so I can have duels, record them and prove it - the place is a ghost town at the moment.

I've personally never ever Xv1'd someone when playing a bow build - it's always been a 1v1/1vX tool for me (just like all my builds).

The "zerg snipers" who just spam Snipe somewhere behind other enemies are usually the easiest people to kill, why do you think they're a problem? I'm happy if one of my opponents is a snipe spammer, it means there's someone who won't be Incapping me or spamming snares/roots & leaping me.

There's effective & ineffective ways of utilizing cast time abilities - just spamming them is an ineffective one.

Yiko wrote: »

I'm not saying that I support the API allowing all of these things to be trackable, I'm just pointing out the general types of players that are complaining the loudest about this addon. People who rely on numbers or stealth mechanics. Judging from the poll with ~75 % people thinking it's a cheat with ~25% thinking that it's not. I know this doesn't logically necessarily follow, but what percentage of the forum do you think zergs vs. small scales? More people play in larger groups, right? More people play casually, too. I think a certain degree of that would be reflected in the poll results.

Yeah, I gladly confess I like to rely on stealth mechanics. Is that somehow a problem? I've played rogues & assassins in (MMO)RPGs since I was 7 years old - who are you (or anyone else) to tell me I shouldn't?

Besides, this addon affects much, much more than just attacks from stealth - it also gives you matrix reflexes against anything coming from out of your camera angle.

If this were a FPS, that'd be like a radar that detected bullets 1s+ before someone shot them. Surely you can understand how gamebreaking that is.

Instead of trying to discredit the poll, you should try to understand that most people (from casual zerger to dueler/1vXers like me) hate cheating, especially when those cheats affect how they play the game.

Dorrino · October 2017

@Yiko

Unfortunately this discussion is being forced into a stall.

One 'side' claims something is cheating and spends their time demonizing other 'side' for defending of cheating. On pure moral grounds.

The other 'side' strongly considers that not a cheating and thus rationalize this point. Obviously if that other 'side' agreed that the addon was cheating it would stop defending its existence.

That's why there is zero moral disagreement. Both 'sides' agree that cheating has to be prevented. This is not the point of the conflict, since there exists full agreement on cheating.

The point is whether it's valid to label the addon as 'cheating' or not.

And until the first 'side' (the one that fights so hard against their illusionary 'cheating apologets') will see that the others are totally on their side - there won't be any productive discussion.

This state of things is quite unfortunate, but by now i don't see a way to reconcile the 'sides'. it's always hard to fight against prejudice, because people from that 'side' believe the other people are evil (stupid, bad, egoistic) and thus aren't capable of discussion.

tl;dr One group of people waste their time to justify that the addon has nothing to do with cheating, while the other group of people waste their time justifying that cheating has to be punished. This is a conversation of a deaf person with a blind one.

Wrubius_Coronaria · October 2017

This discussion is turining in circle.

JonnytheKing · October 2017

Dorrino wrote: »

@Yiko

Unfortunately this discussion is being forced into a stall.

One 'side' claims something is cheating and spends their time demonizing other 'side' for defending of cheating. On pure moral grounds.

The other 'side' strongly considers that not a cheating and thus rationalize this point. Obviously if that other 'side' agreed that the addon was cheating it would stop defending its existence.

That's why there is zero moral disagreement. Both 'sides' agree that cheating has to be prevented. This is not the point of the conflict, since there exists full agreement on cheating.

The point is whether it's valid to label the addon as 'cheating' or not.

And until the first 'side' (the one that fights so hard against their illusionary 'cheating apologets') will see that the others are totally on their side - there won't be any productive discussion.

This state of things is quite unfortunate, but by now i don't see a way to reconcile the 'sides'. it's always hard to fight against prejudice, because people from that 'side' believe the other people are evil (stupid, bad, egoistic) and thus aren't capable of discussion.

tl;dr One group of people waste their time to justify that the addon has nothing to do with cheating, while the other group of people waste their time justifying that cheating has to be punished. This is a conversation of a deaf person with a blind one.

thank you for a great post

Yiko · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

I've provided quite clear rationale for everything and if the people defending this 3rd party cheat choose to ignore/not understand that it's on them - I've run out of different ways to explain obvious things and it's growing tiresome.

You're mostly misrepresenting other people's arguments while simultaneously maintaining your opinions as fact. That's probably why you find this tiresome.It's hard to connect with others in a conversation when you don't honestly and properly address the substance of what they're saying, and you both have different assumptions/definitions going into it.

DDuke wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Some major things to keep in mind going going forward in this discussion:

- The current use of this addon is inarguably not cheating. To call it cheating in its current form is ignorant and disingenuous. It's perfectly fine to have a dialogue regarding whether or not ZOS should restrict their API, but to state that all users of this addon are cheaters is outright laughable and childish. This is ZOS' game. They decide the limitations of their API and how it is used. Even if you discount a bit and maintain that it is an exploit of unintended usage of the API, then it's been that way for about a year now? To put the blame on the players and addon creator is just silly.

Yeah, and Sharpened Maces/Double Mundus also remained in the game for months. I guess those weren't cheating/exploiting then?

Nobody is assigning blame on the players (I myself am one of the people using this cheat addon) or the addon creator - who would do that when half the playerbase is utilizing these cheats, just as they did with Sharpened Maces & Double Mundus etc.

But it is cheating. Cheating that ZOS doesn't care about.

I think there's a bit of a difference between a few months for those things and then ~10-11 current ongoing months for Miat's addon, on top of the fact that people abusing the Sharpened Maces and Mundus Stones 100% knew how they were supposed to function. I'm fairly certain ZOS acknowledged those as issues/abuse/exploits as well, at least the Mundus Stone one.

Your argument is basically contingent on your knowledge of how exactly ZOS' API is supposed to function in its relation to combat, but how do you have that knowledge? How can you objectively state that it is cheating? It is not honest to keep reusing that term.

DDuke wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

- Which brings me to my next point.. To attack Miat for releasing and defending this addon is wrong for multiple reasons. I'm not saying that this is 100% the case, but it is possible that there were private addons with similar or better capabilities than Miat's addon making use of ZOS' available API. The fact that he has released this at all has shed some light onto addon capabilities. Knowledge of these capabilities lead to a dialogue between players and ZOS of what should or should not be allowable. If he had not released the addon, this conversation is not likely to have happened. To portray Miat as this egotistical mad scientist performing unethical experiments is hilarious. He is ridiculed for defending it. Consider his position. He knows more or less the limitations of ZOS' API. In regards to abilities like Dark Flare, Crystal Frags, and Snipe outside of stealth, yes, he COULD leave those out of the addon, but for the sake of consistency, he has included them. Now that other players have knowledge of what you can do in regards to the API, it would be much simpler for them to duplicate that desired notification. He has ensured that these features aren't held in private hands away from the masses by releasing his addon (fully-packaged) publicly.

Yeah, I don't think either he should be criticized for releasing this addon & making it public. But defending it? That's a different story - I have zero sympathy whatsoever towards people who defend & try to rationalize cheating.

Especially when said cheating is currently making the game unplayable for me & leaves me with one option if it isn't fixed: quit the game.

Again, he's defending something that definitionally is not cheating. Your assumption/obsession that it is cheating is a hindrance to a proper dialogue. The game is unplayable for you? You don't have any other options? You're being overdramatic. You have other options that you are not acknowledging. And no, you don't HAVE to play "meta" builds.

DDuke wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

- When the addon was released, it was during a time where stealth ganking was meta. Gankers were running Viper Sting, Selene's/Velidreth, and Clever Alchemist for the most part if I remember correctly, and Viper's Sting could crit and proc from range (due to a weird interaction with Poison glyph). Also, Stealth mechanics were more potent back then (more crit% damage + maybe others). The advantages of stealth were and still are FAR more than simply having the luxury of beginning a fight at your discretion and presumed advantage.

Those issues lied with the proc sets, not stealth. Most people in this game don't even remember when stealth was actually powerful (even "op" to some extent).

Stealth now is a joke, a much weaker mechanic than in almost any other MMORPG I know.

No, stealth had a huge part in it. The %dmg modifier, guaranteed crit, +stun on top of opening at your discretion are what pushed it over the top. Proc sets exacerbated the issues with stealth mechanics. Viper/selene's/veli certainly weren't needed to kill someone in less than a second. There's a reason stealth mechanics were nerfed.
I know this isn't the best example, but it is AN example of stealth mechanics being abused:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4dyYJo9FXg
I only played for 2 weeks in 1.5, so I don't know how strong stealth was there. I know it was incredibly strong in 1.6, but damage was toned down when Imperial City was released.
I'm not sure what other MMOs you've played, but in WoW and GW2, stealth never really allowed for instant kills against people of relative gear/skill afaik. It gave the stealthed play an advantage, but there was healthy counterplay involved (outside of Vanilla Wow Rogues).

DDuke wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Anyways, characters with less than 23k health would very likely die basically in less than a second without any kind of counterplay (read: counterPLAY, not counterBUILD) to any player sitting in stealth who could hit a sequence of 3 buttons. Skill levels were invalidated by in-game mechanics. There was no player vs. player. The individual that died might as well have been an NPC.

I've been playing this game since 2014 and I've never died to a ganker. Not on my relatively squishy medium stamblade, not on my heavy magplar.

The fact is that there are always ways to avoid (situational awareness) ganks or simply react to them in time before you die or even get hit (in case of ranged abilities).

Surely your anecdotal evidence would have something to do with the fact that you sit in stealth on your NB as a non-target or play a beefy/tanky templar presumably with immediate heals? Also, did you think you could just sweep my points under the rug with that anecdotal evidence? This is why your arguments don't get anywhere with people. "People with 22k health can die in less than a second, due to stealth mechanics." WELL I NEVER DIED, SO THERE'S NO PROBLEM FOR ANYONE. ??
Also, it is not PRACTICAL or enjoyable to be ready for a gank 100% of the time. Yes, I could ALWAYS chug detect pots or hold block anywhere I go (among other options), but I'm understandably not going to do that.

DDuke wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

In regards to build diversity, this immensely shifted players outside of stealth to Heavy Armor builds with 26k+ health in order to have a chance to survive these bursts (on top of the fact that Heavy Armor was also incredibly strong). It was essentially suicide to run a Medium Armor open world non-stealth build.

If you think this addon somehow magically made medium armor viable for open world non-stealth build, then I suggest you get Soul Assault combo'd by someone and come back with your thoughts.

As a medium armor player, I actually find the would-be gankers my easiest source of AP.

Another complete misrepresentation. I said the addon "helped mitigate," not magically made medium armor completely viable.
You should mention that you're a stealth player. Your statement would probably be more honest as something like, "As a medium armor stealth player, I find gankers that are already out of stealth easy to kill."
Not that killing a ganker out of stealth is hard for anyone, just pointing out that that is your preferred playstyle, as detailed by your frustration at the existence of this addon. This also implies that you are at less risk of dying, as you are presumably in stealth when prepping to attack.

DDuke wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

This addon helped mitigate that. If I had to pick the lesser between two "evils," I would definitely pick the usage of this addon over being gimped from one or two invisible players. Think about who this addon affects and how it affects them.

Yeah, could say the same to you.

Who does this addon affect? Bow builds, ranged Dark Flare builds, ranged builds in general. Builds that already struggle in the meta.
Whom it doesn't affect? Melee builds, the ones that are the meta.

You think it's fair to make the game unplayable to a whole large demographic simply because you & others like you dislike dying to builds that aren't even meta?

Those ranged builds (not talking about melee proc builds now) never made the game unplayable to anyone, yet people still feel "justified" to spit on them & drive those players to other games.

Disgraceful.

Builds that struggle in general are also builds that struggle in this meta. They're weak builds. Again, you're being dramatic. So the templar can't spam Dark Flare anymore, right? When does he have the opportunity to do that? When no one is on him, interrupting or bashing. Since when are people generally not on a healer? When they're outnumbered. Dark Flare is EXTREMELY telegraphed. You do not need an addon to dodge it. It is an easily avoidable ability. Therefore, if a build is suddenly "unplayable" because it cannot use its already unreliable move, then maybe it's a bad build to begin with. Does that mean that those players who used the build have to quit? No, obviously not. They can adapt. They don't have to become a meta build, they can innovate or iterate on their current build to make it more effective. You're just playing the role of the victim here, as if you have the power to do nothing. "Unplayable to a whole large demographic" is hilariously vague language.
For the above, you can substitute Templar/Dark Flare with Sorc/Hardcasted Frags or X/Snipe. My biggest gripe with these channeled abilities, namely Snipe, is when used from Stealth when I'm already engaged against other opponents. The channel should bring those players out of stealth.
A vast majority of these people blaming this addon for performance issues are not being honest with the root cause of the performance issues.

DDuke wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

This addon benefits small scalers far more than it benefits zergers. Who is negatively impacted most by this addon? People who like to gank from stealth, spam Snipe, Dark Flare, and hard-cast Frags. When is the most appropriate time to use these abilities? When you outnumber your opponent and have freedom to cast. All of these can be bashed/interrupted and generally aren't recommendable in any type of "competitive" setting.

Bow has been viable in the past for both 1v1 & 1vX and could be again, if not for the existence of this addon. I'm still waiting for people to log on PTS so I can have duels, record them and prove it - the place is a ghost town at the moment.

I've personally never ever Xv1'd someone when playing a bow build - it's always been a 1v1/1vX tool for me (just like all my builds).

The "zerg snipers" who just spam Snipe somewhere behind other enemies are usually the easiest people to kill, why do you think they're a problem? I'm happy if one of my opponents is a snipe spammer, it means there's someone who won't be Incapping me or spamming snares/roots & leaping me.

We'll have to agree to disagree about the bow being viable for 1v1 and 1vX. We probably have different definitions of viable.
The zerg snipers generally are the easiest to kill when they're outside of stealth, yes. When specfically did I say they were a problem? Open field snipers are candy. The problem is attacks from stealth, which this addon was created to address.

DDuke wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

I'm not saying that I support the API allowing all of these things to be trackable, I'm just pointing out the general types of players that are complaining the loudest about this addon. People who rely on numbers or stealth mechanics. Judging from the poll with ~75 % people thinking it's a cheat with ~25% thinking that it's not. I know this doesn't logically necessarily follow, but what percentage of the forum do you think zergs vs. small scales? More people play in larger groups, right? More people play casually, too. I think a certain degree of that would be reflected in the poll results.

Yeah, I gladly confess I like to rely on stealth mechanics. Is that somehow a problem? I've played rogues & assassins in (MMO)RPGs since I was 7 years old - who are you (or anyone else) to tell me I shouldn't?

Besides, this addon affects much, much more than just attacks from stealth - it also gives you matrix reflexes against anything coming from out of your camera angle.

If this were a FPS, that'd be like a radar that detected bullets 1s+ before someone shot them. Surely you can understand how gamebreaking that is.

Instead of trying to discredit the poll, you should try to understand that most people (from casual zerger to dueler/1vXers like me) hate cheating.

Nope, I did not say that you relying on stealth mechanics was a problem, nor did I say that you shouldn't. I do not like ZOS' implementation of stealth within this game, and I do happen to like Miat's addon that addresses my concerns with this game's stealth mechanics.
I agree with your point that this addon impacts many things outside of stealth like with Dark Flare. I do not like that aspect of it, but I understand why it is included (consistency and public availability). This is probably the biggest point of contention with the addon right now.

I wasn't trying to discredit the poll. I was actually trying to credit it by giving it more context lol. Just wanted to paint a picture of the types of players that have the biggest problem with this addon. As a reminder, that would be players that rely on numbers and stealth mechanics.
I understand that most people hate cheating. I hate cheating too, but as it stands, the use of this addon is not cheating.

@Dorrino Yeah, I'm starting to realize this is pretty much just a repeat of that thread from last December or January. It's extremely difficult to have a reasonable and honest exchange here.

Jayman1000 · October 2017

Yiko wrote: »

Now that other players have knowledge of what you can do in regards to the API, it would be much simpler for them to duplicate that desired notification. He has ensured that these features aren't held in private hands away from the masses by releasing his addon (fully-packaged) publicly..

This is a really good point. Miat's addon actually provide a way to level the field for everyone to use (and not just a secret private addon for a select elite of players) while at the same time exposing the capabilities of addons. In any case it is up to ZOS to decide whether to keep allowing the their API to be used in this way or not. Calling Miats addon for cheating is ridiculous, it is not cheating. In fact I wouldn't even call it an unfair advantage, because as we have already established, anyone can download and install the addon; it's not kept secret or off limits to some players. But do I want it to be this way? Nope, I'd like the API to be changed such that this information cannot be extracted. I don't think it's good pvp gameplay that you can spot a hidden players castbar. But blame ZOS for not changing this then. (On the other hand I also don't like that "stealthed" players can be invisible in broad daylight and in plain sight but that is how ZOS has chosen the game to work, and Im sure many think this is good and disagree with me, and that's perfectly fine, this is just an opinion and a matter of taste).

Dorrino · October 2017

@Yiko you are awesome

@Dduke, LegendaryMage (not tagging you, honey) and some others

I'm not trying to fight you, guys.
I'm not trying to defend cheating.
I'm not trying to make pvp worse to make up for my own deficiencies.
I'm not trying to enjoy a cheap fame.

I'm sincerely trying to help make pvp less frustrating and more fair place.

My view of pvp might be biased.
I might be wrong, with my understanding pvp in general.
But i'm doing my best to help it in the best way that i can see.

If you want proofs about my pvp skill level and you don't want to ask hundreds of people that fought me (or saw me fighting) in Vivec/Trueflame/Azura NA over the years i'll duel you and i'll kill you so you could finally set aside your blind prejudice and finally agree to listen to me.

You can prove me wrong. You can change my opinion. That's awesome.

Just talk to me. Don't turn yet another thread on these forums into a heap of hate.

I'm not your enemy, never was and never will be even if i happen to win a fight against you in pvp.

I respect your opinions even if you coat them with hatred, disgust and mocking.

I'll keep treating you as respectable human beings despite all that.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · October 2017

Can we take all of the drama, noise, and disagreement and refine it into ONE question for ZOS?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

ZOS: In your design philosophy for stealth combat, should players be able to detect (via add-on) the actions of stealthed enemies WITHOUT having to see them or reveal them first via in-game anti-stealth mechanics (magelight, detect pots, etc).

If so, will you retract this statement from @ZOS_ChipHilseberg ?
If not, what do you intend to do with the API to prevent detection of attacks originating in stealth?

THE END.

Seriously, all we need to do as a community is to get an answer to that question. Miat already asked this question and got an answer but that answer doesn't square up with ZOS's actions. If Chip is correct, then the API (as it currently functions) doesn't match the design vision. So what gives? The ball is in ZOS's court.

DDuke · October 2017

Yiko wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I've provided quite clear rationale for everything and if the people defending this 3rd party cheat choose to ignore/not understand that it's on them - I've run out of different ways to explain obvious things and it's growing tiresome.

You're mostly misrepresenting other people's arguments while simultaneously maintaining your opinions as fact. That's probably why you find this tiresome.It's hard to connect with others in a conversation when you don't honestly and properly address the substance of what they're saying, and you both have different assumptions/definitions going into it.

DDuke wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Some major things to keep in mind going going forward in this discussion:

- The current use of this addon is inarguably not cheating. To call it cheating in its current form is ignorant and disingenuous. It's perfectly fine to have a dialogue regarding whether or not ZOS should restrict their API, but to state that all users of this addon are cheaters is outright laughable and childish. This is ZOS' game. They decide the limitations of their API and how it is used. Even if you discount a bit and maintain that it is an exploit of unintended usage of the API, then it's been that way for about a year now? To put the blame on the players and addon creator is just silly.

Yeah, and Sharpened Maces/Double Mundus also remained in the game for months. I guess those weren't cheating/exploiting then?

Nobody is assigning blame on the players (I myself am one of the people using this cheat addon) or the addon creator - who would do that when half the playerbase is utilizing these cheats, just as they did with Sharpened Maces & Double Mundus etc.

But it is cheating. Cheating that ZOS doesn't care about.

I think there's a bit of a difference between a few months for those things and then ~10-11 current ongoing months for Miat's addon, on top of the fact that people abusing the Sharpened Maces and Mundus Stones 100% knew how they were supposed to function. I'm fairly certain ZOS acknowledged those as issues/abuse/exploits as well, at least the Mundus Stone one.

Mundus Stone exploit got in the game when Upper Craglorn was released, it took over a year to fix that (and it wasn't fully fixed). A version of Double Mundus actually worked until January this year (it got fixed in Homestead).

Yiko wrote: »

Your argument is basically contingent on your knowledge of how exactly ZOS' API is supposed to function in its relation to combat, but how do you have that knowledge? How can you objectively state that it is cheating? It is not honest to keep reusing that term.

Based on the last official word from ZOS on the subject:

Originally Posted by dorrino View Post
While you're here i have a question.

This change obviously severely limits the features of my addon. Can i (we) get an official stance on which parts of the addon are not desirable within ZOS design direction?

Even after the change i have some ideas how to still get the info i need for the addon to work. This will be noticeably more cumbersome and unreliable (probably) though.

In any case my intention is NOT to start an arms race with you guys. And i don't really want to spend hours of developing an intricate system to circumvent this change only to realize you will counter it with some other change

So, please, tell me which features are fine to have within your vision and which features will get an active countermeasures from you?

Thank you,

PS. Chip, in 5-10 min i'll PM you an exploit, that i found, that is very much possible with the current API. It technically allows to automate almost any players actions and CONDITIONALLY call protected and PRIVATE functions even when in combat. Cheers

ZOS_ChipHilseberg
I believe that it was anything that allows you to detect the presence or actions of a hostile player without having to see them.

That is how the API is supposed to function, though common sense could've told you that.

Yiko wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

- Which brings me to my next point.. To attack Miat for releasing and defending this addon is wrong for multiple reasons. I'm not saying that this is 100% the case, but it is possible that there were private addons with similar or better capabilities than Miat's addon making use of ZOS' available API. The fact that he has released this at all has shed some light onto addon capabilities. Knowledge of these capabilities lead to a dialogue between players and ZOS of what should or should not be allowable. If he had not released the addon, this conversation is not likely to have happened. To portray Miat as this egotistical mad scientist performing unethical experiments is hilarious. He is ridiculed for defending it. Consider his position. He knows more or less the limitations of ZOS' API. In regards to abilities like Dark Flare, Crystal Frags, and Snipe outside of stealth, yes, he COULD leave those out of the addon, but for the sake of consistency, he has included them. Now that other players have knowledge of what you can do in regards to the API, it would be much simpler for them to duplicate that desired notification. He has ensured that these features aren't held in private hands away from the masses by releasing his addon (fully-packaged) publicly.

Yeah, I don't think either he should be criticized for releasing this addon & making it public. But defending it? That's a different story - I have zero sympathy whatsoever towards people who defend & try to rationalize cheating.

Especially when said cheating is currently making the game unplayable for me & leaves me with one option if it isn't fixed: quit the game.

Again, he's defending something that definitionally is not cheating. Your assumption/obsession that it is cheating is a hindrance to a proper dialogue. The game is unplayable for you? You don't have any other options? You're being overdramatic. You have other options that you are not acknowledging. And no, you don't HAVE to play "meta" builds.

The only interesting build for next patch I've found is a bow build - and the only reason I can't play it competitively is this addon.

So no, I cannot actually play the game if this addon stays. I don't consider logging in for writs & logging off like I've done for the past 3-4 months really "playing".

I've given ZOS multiple patch cycles to shape up the meta & make me interested in the game again, and now only thing standing inbetween is a bloody 3rd party plugin.

The reason I consider this cheating is quite simple: the whole abusive element of the addon hinges on a flaw/bug in the API that is not functioning as intended (as per the latest official word from ZOS).

It is also a 3rd party plugin, which in many ways makes it worse than Sharpened Maces/Double Mundus ever were and it for a fact has had a more devastating effect on the game.

Reading material: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_exploits

Yiko wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

- When the addon was released, it was during a time where stealth ganking was meta. Gankers were running Viper Sting, Selene's/Velidreth, and Clever Alchemist for the most part if I remember correctly, and Viper's Sting could crit and proc from range (due to a weird interaction with Poison glyph). Also, Stealth mechanics were more potent back then (more crit% damage + maybe others). The advantages of stealth were and still are FAR more than simply having the luxury of beginning a fight at your discretion and presumed advantage.

Those issues lied with the proc sets, not stealth. Most people in this game don't even remember when stealth was actually powerful (even "op" to some extent).

Stealth now is a joke, a much weaker mechanic than in almost any other MMORPG I know.

No, stealth had a huge part in it. The %dmg modifier, guaranteed crit, +stun on top of opening at your discretion are what pushed it over the top. Proc sets exacerbated the issues with stealth mechanics. Viper/selene's/veli certainly weren't needed to kill someone in less than a second. There's a reason stealth mechanics were nerfed.
I know this isn't the best example, but it is AN example of stealth mechanics being abused: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4dyYJo9FXg
I only played for 2 weeks in 1.5, so I don't know how strong stealth was there. I know it was incredibly strong in 1.6, but damage was toned down when Imperial City was released.
I'm not sure what other MMOs you've played, but in WoW and GW2, stealth never really allowed for instant kills against people of relative gear/skill afaik. It gave the stealthed play an advantage, but there was healthy counterplay involved (outside of Vanilla Wow Rogues).

Sure, there have been broken things such as ultimates gaining stealth modifier and back before Battle Spirit stealth damage was absolutely out of control (as were many other things from infinite batswarms to infinite dodge rolls/streaks etc).

But ever since Battle Spirit was added in all stealth related burst (besides the 2H ultimate, which got fixed) has been either avoidable or survivable.

If you look at games like WoW, BnS, GW2 etc, they actually give you an entire special skill bar when you're stealthed to choose how you want utilize the stealth mechanic.

Yiko wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Anyways, characters with less than 23k health would very likely die basically in less than a second without any kind of counterplay (read: counterPLAY, not counterBUILD) to any player sitting in stealth who could hit a sequence of 3 buttons. Skill levels were invalidated by in-game mechanics. There was no player vs. player. The individual that died might as well have been an NPC.

I've been playing this game since 2014 and I've never died to a ganker. Not on my relatively squishy medium stamblade, not on my heavy magplar.

The fact is that there are always ways to avoid (situational awareness) ganks or simply react to them in time before you die or even get hit (in case of ranged abilities).

Surely your anecdotal evidence would have something to do with the fact that you sit in stealth on your NB as a non-target or play a beefy/tanky templar presumably with immediate heals? Also, did you think you could just sweep my points under the rug with that anecdotal evidence? This is why your arguments don't get anywhere with people. "People with 22k health can die in less than a second, due to stealth mechanics." WELL I NEVER DIED, SO THERE'S NO PROBLEM FOR ANYONE. ??
Also, it is not PRACTICAL or enjoyable to be ready for a gank 100% of the time. Yes, I could ALWAYS chug detect pots or hold block anywhere I go (among other options), but I'm understandably not going to do that.

You don't die with 20k+ health & 7 impen if you break CC quick enough and dodge roll.

Here's what happens to would-be gankers: https://youtu.be/LnAmR9dawa4?t=33s

Here's how you determine how much health/impen you should have:

Open up EsoBuildEditor
Come up with the nastiest ganker build you can imagine, apply buffs to it.
Look at skill tooltips, count how much initial burst there is.
Now, open up your own build & adjust impen/health values (as well as CPs) to survive.

Theorycrafting 101.

Yiko wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

This addon helped mitigate that. If I had to pick the lesser between two "evils," I would definitely pick the usage of this addon over being gimped from one or two invisible players. Think about who this addon affects and how it affects them.

Yeah, could say the same to you.

Who does this addon affect? Bow builds, ranged Dark Flare builds, ranged builds in general. Builds that already struggle in the meta.
Whom it doesn't affect? Melee builds, the ones that are the meta.

You think it's fair to make the game unplayable to a whole large demographic simply because you & others like you dislike dying to builds that aren't even meta?

Those ranged builds (not talking about melee proc builds now) never made the game unplayable to anyone, yet people still feel "justified" to spit on them & drive those players to other games.

Disgraceful.

Builds that struggle in general are also builds that struggle in this meta. They're weak builds. Again, you're being dramatic. So the templar can't spam Dark Flare anymore, right? When does he have the opportunity to do that? When no one is on him, interrupting or bashing. Since when are people generally not on a healer? When they're outnumbered. Dark Flare is EXTREMELY telegraphed. You do not need an addon to dodge it. It is an easily avoidable ability. Therefore, if a build is suddenly "unplayable" because it cannot use it's already unreliable move, then maybe it's a bad build to begin with. Does that mean that those players who used the build have to quit? No, obviously not. They can adapt. They don't have to become a meta build, they can innovate or reiterate on their current build to make it more effective. You're just playing the role of the victim here, as if you have the power to do nothing. "Unplayable to a whole large demographic" is hilariously vague language.
For the above, you can substitute Templar/Dark Flare with Sorc/Hardcasted Frags or X/Snipe. My biggest gripe with these channeled abilities, namely Snipe, is when used from Stealth when I'm already engaged against other opponents. The channel should bring those players out of stealth.
A vast majority of these people blaming this addon for performance issues are not being honest with the root cause of the performance issues.

Yes, Dark Flare is weak against melee builds that stick to them, but I disagree on it being easy to dodge when combined with a quick Javelin (especially from stealth).

Also, Snipe will be perfectly viable (atleast on stamblade) in 1V1 & 1vX next patch, as long as this 3rd party plugin doesn't exist. I will post a duel video proving this as soon as I can actually find people to duel on PTS (it's a ghost town).

1v1 Duels involve keeping melee players away from you by camping fear trap, rearming trap, using cloak & shadow image to kite and land snipe combos. All it takes is one combo to burst someone down, just like any other build.

If Snipe brought players out of stealth when channeling, it'd be unusable in 1vX as you'd get piled on by a zerg in an instant.

If you're having problems with snipers when engaged against other opponents, dodge roll & find LOS - it's not that hard.

Yiko wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

This addon benefits small scalers far more than it benefits zergers. Who is negatively impacted most by this addon? People who like to gank from stealth, spam Snipe, Dark Flare, and hard-cast Frags. When is the most appropriate time to use these abilities? When you outnumber your opponent and have freedom to cast. All of these can be bashed/interrupted and generally aren't recommendable in any type of "competitive" setting.

Bow has been viable in the past for both 1v1 & 1vX and could be again, if not for the existence of this addon. I'm still waiting for people to log on PTS so I can have duels, record them and prove it - the place is a ghost town at the moment.

I've personally never ever Xv1'd someone when playing a bow build - it's always been a 1v1/1vX tool for me (just like all my builds).

The "zerg snipers" who just spam Snipe somewhere behind other enemies are usually the easiest people to kill, why do you think they're a problem? I'm happy if one of my opponents is a snipe spammer, it means there's someone who won't be Incapping me or spamming snares/roots & leaping me.

We'll have to agree to disagree about the bow being viable for 1v1 and 1vX. We probably have different definitions of viable.
The zerg snipers generally are the easiest to kill when they're outside of stealth, yes. When specfically did I say they were a problem? Open field snipers are candy. The problem is attacks from stealth, which this addon was created to address.

Sure, just wait for the video. Last time people laughed when I said heavy armor magplar would be strong,
back in 2016 before heavy armor buffs. Look what happened.

I love proving people wrong.

So you think they should always "be candy"? Attacks from stealth are part of the game, whether you like it or not. Some players learned to deal with them, others learned how to create cheats.

Yiko wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

I'm not saying that I support the API allowing all of these things to be trackable, I'm just pointing out the general types of players that are complaining the loudest about this addon. People who rely on numbers or stealth mechanics. Judging from the poll with ~75 % people thinking it's a cheat with ~25% thinking that it's not. I know this doesn't logically necessarily follow, but what percentage of the forum do you think zergs vs. small scales? More people play in larger groups, right? More people play casually, too. I think a certain degree of that would be reflected in the poll results.

Yeah, I gladly confess I like to rely on stealth mechanics. Is that somehow a problem? I've played rogues & assassins in (MMO)RPGs since I was 7 years old - who are you (or anyone else) to tell me I shouldn't?

Besides, this addon affects much, much more than just attacks from stealth - it also gives you matrix reflexes against anything coming from out of your camera angle.

If this were a FPS, that'd be like a radar that detected bullets 1s+ before someone shot them. Surely you can understand how gamebreaking that is.

Instead of trying to discredit the poll, you should try to understand that most people (from casual zerger to dueler/1vXers like me) hate cheating.

Nope, I did not say that you relying on stealth mechanics was a problem, nor did I say that you shouldn't. I do not like ZOS' implementation of stealth within this game, and I do happen to like Miat's addon that addresses my concerns with this game's stealth mechanics.

I don't like the implementation of stealth much either and in the past I've proposed changes to it that'd make it more skill based.

The solution is to give your feedback to ZOS (while keeping in mind other people & how they enjoy playing the game), not removing those peoples' playstyle because you don't like it (not addressed at anyone in particular, just a general statement).

Besides, this addon doesn't even affect the strongest stealth builds out there (melee ones) - it only f's up ranged builds (some of which draw heavily on stealth).

Kalante · October 2017

console ftw

Riejael · October 2017

Dorrino wrote: »

And until the first 'side' (the one that fights so hard against their illusionary 'cheating apologets') will see that the others are totally on their side - there won't be any productive discussion.

There's an easy way to deal with it.

1. Report redundant threads, keeping it here (a few tried to avoid this thread by creating new ones to spread the discussion all over making it hard to defend a point against a spread out mob. ZOS will lock them.

2. Report anyone who calls anyone else a cheater or some other personal attack.

That will cut down on the bigoted responses

I mean I've said at least three times in this thread and several times in past threads that I don't like how much information your addon gives. But I'm not going to call you names or even think ill of you for making it. ZOS made the API available for you to use it. If they want to change it, that's on them. That's THEIR responsibility. Not yours.

But even with that said people make personal attacks against me because I don't vilify you or those who use the addon. That's how polarizing they are. How can anyone have a civil discussion when one group will have terrible behavior with people that even agree with them.

Its either 100% do as they say or you're the enemy.

That's why I mentioned in my above post that it isn't about what people think is cheating. Its about control. They want to have a personal list of 'approved' (by them only) addons, builds, and such. Anything that deviates it is evil, is cheating, is dishonorable. Might as well call it heretical at this point too.

They probably hate me more then they do you. Cause what I say applies to more than just your addon. Its crazy.

Dorrino · October 2017

Riejael wrote: »

1. Report redundant threads, keeping it here (a few tried to avoid this thread by creating new ones to spread the discussion all over making it hard to defend a point against a spread out mob. ZOS will lock them.

2. Report anyone who calls anyone else a cheater or some other personal attack.

The problem is ZOS CMs don't police anything besides the most stupid open aggression and name calling.

They allow people to insult other people unless those insults use specific words.

Even more, they remove the posts that discuss this attitude as being off-topic.

Riejael wrote: »

That will cut down on the bigoted responses

They tolerate bigoted responses. Even more they cultivate this attitude with their own approach to the communication.

Riejael wrote: »

I mean I've said at least three times in this thread and several times in past threads that I don't like how much information your addon gives. But I'm not going to call you names or even think ill of you for making it. ZOS made the API available for you to use it. If they want to change it, that's on them. That's THEIR responsibility. Not yours.

And that's the behavior that is normally expected, but on these forums i should thank you, for having tolerance and respect to people having different opinion than yourself. That's where we are now.

Riejael wrote: »

How can anyone have a civil discussion when one group will have terrible behavior with people that even agree with them.

Many people are not here for civil discussion. They got nothing to discuss because they don't have any questions. They already 'know' stuff. They got an opinion and blatantly use the forum as a means of pushing it through.

Riejael wrote: »

Might as well call it heretical at this point too.

And it is:)

Riejael wrote: »

They probably hate me more then they do you. Cause what I say applies to more than just your addon. Its crazy.

They ignore you. You're too rational. It's hard to make you the target.

Anyways, looks like this discussion about the addon is over. Just as Yiko said. This thread turned into yet another replication of all other threads on this topic.

LegendaryMage · October 2017

Dorrino wrote: »

@Yiko you are awesome

@Dduke, LegendaryMage (not tagging you, honey) and some others

I'm not trying to fight you, guys.
I'm not trying to defend cheating.
I'm not trying to make pvp worse to make up for my own deficiencies.
I'm not trying to enjoy a cheap fame.

I'm sincerely trying to help make pvp less frustrating and more fair place.

My view of pvp might be biased.
I might be wrong, with my understanding pvp in general.
But i'm doing my best to help it in the best way that i can see.

If you want proofs about my pvp skill level and you don't want to ask hundreds of people that fought me (or saw me fighting) in Vivec/Trueflame/Azura NA over the years i'll duel you and i'll kill you so you could finally set aside your blind prejudice and finally agree to listen to me.

You can prove me wrong. You can change my opinion. That's awesome.

Just talk to me. Don't turn yet another thread on these forums into a heap of hate.

I'm not your enemy, never was and never will be even if i happen to win a fight against you in pvp.

I respect your opinions even if you coat them with hatred, disgust and mocking.

I'll keep treating you as respectable human beings despite all that.

Listen sweetie, I've been dueling since launch of the game, kept the dueling scene active on PC EU all this time, dueled tens of thousands of players and who knows how many more along the years. To be honest, I don't think that there's anyone in this whole game that has had more duels under their belt than me. I am probably the only PC EU player who has dueled dozens of your 'best skilled NA players' as well, and you don't want to go in there either.

You should stop throwing taunts around, there is literally only one PC EU stam NB on a highly DEDICATED dueling build that can even compete with my sorc, and that's not you.

As for you, you should be happy you never got to duel me when I was actively into it, your whole PVP world would have collapsed in less than an hour if that's what you value (dueling skill). Then there would be excuses 'sorc op, nb no tools blah blah' and we'd get nowhere, so just forget it. Now that's that, dueling discussion over. You got no chance 9 out of 10 fights, I'm sorry but that's how it is.

Now, go ahead and have fun in ESO as much as you can. I really couldn't care less what ZOS does with the game at this point, I've been here way longer than you to see that even if one thing gets fixed, 5 others will get broken in the process.

Meld777 · October 2017

What is this discussion even about?

Let's assume Miat says, "Yes, you convinced me. My add-on is cheating. I'll take it down."

It wouldn't disappear from people's computers. And it would continue working forever, unless ZOS decides to take away the functionality. Of course people can then hope for some kind of functionality-breaking update that will require an add-on update. Guess what... there are tons of people that do not consider it cheating. It will be updated by someone else in under 1h, since the code and logic are already known. The add-on is quite easy to read for a coder.

As a Nightblade, I am happy this add-on exists. It's something everyone can use. And I believe it's better than having small groups of people using this functionality privately. And yes, there are tons of private addons as well. Some guilds used to have their own private Raid Notifiers (before Kyoma's public version became op

).

TL;DR: No point discussing this. The addon isn't going anywhere, even if all of us suddenly agree that it's bad/toxic/cheating/etc. If you don't like the addon, address ZOS. Leave Miat alone. He has the only addon that reliably shows all your group member locations around you, so that there's no confusion where to rez.

yodased · October 2017

In all the drama here I think this actually boils down to one main issue, and that is that a player has taken over the role of the developer.

I don't particularly care for this addon, but I don't run any addons that would affect anyone else's game play anyway.

The main problem is that there is one piece of addon software that is exposing information not readily shown to the player and negating other peoples play style.

Don't get me wrong I hated the 1shot ganks and stealth has always been a bane, I will chase a nightblade to hell if I see them playing marco polo, but the point is, this is a player made addon which you are debating.

The silence from ZOS doesn't actually mean anything, its interpreted by both sides for their arguments, but neither side actually know anything. If ZOS would actually sack up and deal with this, then everyone would just have to accept it.

Calling each other names and accusing people of cheating because they are using this is childish though. I understand the frustration that people have, that a player has this much supposed "power" over the game, but you have to accept that this information was always there, @Dorrino just figured out how to see ultraviolet light, as it were. Just because we can't see ultraviolet, doesn't mean its not there. Put on some special goggles and boom.

Like it or not, using goggles to see ultraviolet light is not cheating physics, its just working within the confines of the known spectrum. It's also not like these goggles are expensive or exclusionary at all, they are free and anyone can use them.

The strawman that an LUA UI addon will cause your machine to slowdown to a point of not playing is a bit ridiculous. Something like MM, sure, but that is simply because it is scanning thousands and thousands of lines of items and its much more than a simple UI overlay.

Tl;DR Players are made because another player has taken it upon himself to be the judge jury and executioner here. ZOS silence has fueled the flames and I doubt the two sides will ever come together here.

SanTii.92 · October 2017

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

@Yiko you are awesome

@Dduke, LegendaryMage (not tagging you, honey) and some others

I'm not trying to fight you, guys.
I'm not trying to defend cheating.
I'm not trying to make pvp worse to make up for my own deficiencies.
I'm not trying to enjoy a cheap fame.

I'm sincerely trying to help make pvp less frustrating and more fair place.

My view of pvp might be biased.
I might be wrong, with my understanding pvp in general.
But i'm doing my best to help it in the best way that i can see.

If you want proofs about my pvp skill level and you don't want to ask hundreds of people that fought me (or saw me fighting) in Vivec/Trueflame/Azura NA over the years i'll duel you and i'll kill you so you could finally set aside your blind prejudice and finally agree to listen to me.

You can prove me wrong. You can change my opinion. That's awesome.

Just talk to me. Don't turn yet another thread on these forums into a heap of hate.

I'm not your enemy, never was and never will be even if i happen to win a fight against you in pvp.

I respect your opinions even if you coat them with hatred, disgust and mocking.

I'll keep treating you as respectable human beings despite all that.

Listen sweetie, I've been dueling since launch of the game, kept the dueling scene active on PC EU all this time, dueled tens of thousands of players and who knows how many more along the years. To be honest, I don't think that there's anyone in this whole game that has had more duels under their belt than me. I am probably the only PC EU player who has dueled dozens of your 'best skilled NA players' as well, and you don't want to go in there either.

You should stop throwing taunts around, there is literally only one PC EU stam NB on a highly DEDICATED dueling build that can even compete with my sorc, and that's not you.

As for you, you should be happy you never got to duel me when I was actively into it, your whole PVP world would have collapsed in less than an hour if that's what you value (dueling skill). Then there would be excuses 'sorc op, nb no tools blah blah' and we'd get nowhere, so just forget it. Now that's that, dueling discussion over. You got no chance 9 out of 10 fights, I'm sorry but that's how it is.

Now, go ahead and have fun in ESO as much as you can. I really couldn't care less what ZOS does with the game at this point, I've been here way longer than you to see that even if one thing gets fixed, 5 others will get broken in the process.

Would you setup some fights on the pts this weekend? I'd like to check how good EU actually is.

LegendaryMage · October 2017

SanTii.92 wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

@Yiko you are awesome

@Dduke, LegendaryMage (not tagging you, honey) and some others

I'm not trying to fight you, guys.
I'm not trying to defend cheating.
I'm not trying to make pvp worse to make up for my own deficiencies.
I'm not trying to enjoy a cheap fame.

I'm sincerely trying to help make pvp less frustrating and more fair place.

My view of pvp might be biased.
I might be wrong, with my understanding pvp in general.
But i'm doing my best to help it in the best way that i can see.

If you want proofs about my pvp skill level and you don't want to ask hundreds of people that fought me (or saw me fighting) in Vivec/Trueflame/Azura NA over the years i'll duel you and i'll kill you so you could finally set aside your blind prejudice and finally agree to listen to me.

You can prove me wrong. You can change my opinion. That's awesome.

Just talk to me. Don't turn yet another thread on these forums into a heap of hate.

I'm not your enemy, never was and never will be even if i happen to win a fight against you in pvp.

I respect your opinions even if you coat them with hatred, disgust and mocking.

I'll keep treating you as respectable human beings despite all that.

Listen sweetie, I've been dueling since launch of the game, kept the dueling scene active on PC EU all this time, dueled tens of thousands of players and who knows how many more along the years. To be honest, I don't think that there's anyone in this whole game that has had more duels under their belt than me. I am probably the only PC EU player who has dueled dozens of your 'best skilled NA players' as well, and you don't want to go in there either.

You should stop throwing taunts around, there is literally only one PC EU stam NB on a highly DEDICATED dueling build that can even compete with my sorc, and that's not you.

As for you, you should be happy you never got to duel me when I was actively into it, your whole PVP world would have collapsed in less than an hour if that's what you value (dueling skill). Then there would be excuses 'sorc op, nb no tools blah blah' and we'd get nowhere, so just forget it. Now that's that, dueling discussion over. You got no chance 9 out of 10 fights, I'm sorry but that's how it is.

Now, go ahead and have fun in ESO as much as you can. I really couldn't care less what ZOS does with the game at this point, I've been here way longer than you to see that even if one thing gets fixed, 5 others will get broken in the process.

Would you setup some fights on the pts this weekend? I'd like to check how good EU actually is.

I don't think there's many PC EU players actively playing there now. I plan to be on the PTS next few weeks making PVE builds and having fun, but as I said - I'm always up for fights.

EU is very good in duels, I don't say this because I'm from EU, I say it because I fought many EU players and a significant amount of NA players as well. Granted, my NA dueling days are long gone, I haven't even logged into the server for over a year maybe, so things might have changed in the meantime.

The reason why EU seems to do better in duels than NA, is 1) there's more EU players so naturally there will be more dueling and more good ones, but that doesn't mean that there's no good NA duelers, 2) the metas are different and this is why I prefer NA duelers because they don't just build for dueling, but duel with open world builds (like I do) while a lot of EU players at the duel spot are just playing the dueling mini-game for the sake of it. And finally 3) NA seems to be less 'salty' than EU for some reason to me, EU is much more challenging to compete with but the salt is real hehe

Dorrino · October 2017

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Listen sweetie, I've been dueling since launch of the game, kept the dueling scene active on PC EU all this time, dueled tens of thousands of players and who knows how many more along the years. To be honest, I don't think that there's anyone in this whole game that has had more duels under their belt than me. I am probably the only PC EU player who has dueled dozens of your 'best skilled NA players' as well, and you don't want to go in there either.

You should stop throwing taunts around, there is literally only one PC EU stam NB on a highly DEDICATED dueling build that can even compete with my sorc, and that's not you.

The problem with this type of bragging is that it tries to push exclusivity on the basis of experience.

I could write a similar type of 'i did that and killed that and thousands and thousands' and since i've seen how you play i could easily tell you that 'i fought great sorcs and that's not you'. And unlike your statement i'd have ground for that.

But what's the point?

The only reason i poked your ego was your offensive and inappropriate behavior.

There's one thing that distinguish great players from good players. In any game in the world.

Great players aren't arrogant. They respect each single one of their opponent. They got nothing to prove. They already proved it all.

So a great player would never have try to assert dominance, by preassuming inferiority in other people. Great players love to find somebody of a similar level, because everything else is too easy and boring.

I mentioned my pvp skills only to try to stop false personal insults and assumptions.

You mention yours to intimidate the opponent.

You could've researched the subject. You could've asked around. You could've asked me.

Instead you added arrogance on top of your ignorance and called it a day.

That's why i can say with a lot of certainty that you will lose our duels.

Not because your experience or your motor skills.

But because you underestimate people and allow your emotions to talk for you.

You will lose because emotions always lose. You will make yourself lose.

This above is irrelevant to me. You're just another overemotional guy with lack of empathy and consequent social deficiencies.

I feel for you, but to help you i need you to want to get the help.

LegendaryMage wrote: »

As for you, you should be happy you never got to duel me when I was actively into it, your whole PVP world would have collapsed in less than an hour if that's what you value (dueling skill). Then there would be excuses 'sorc op, nb no tools blah blah' and we'd get nowhere, so just forget it. Now that's that, dueling discussion over. You got no chance 9 out of 10 fights, I'm sorry but that's how it is.

Since, unlike you i know what i'm talking about i do regret you fall as low as to expose yourself on the forums.

You already lost, without even starting a duel.

You've lost in the game of respect. And thus you will lose any actual duel in the game.

I am truly sorry about that.

LegendaryMage · October 2017

Dorrino wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Listen sweetie, I've been dueling since launch of the game, kept the dueling scene active on PC EU all this time, dueled tens of thousands of players and who knows how many more along the years. To be honest, I don't think that there's anyone in this whole game that has had more duels under their belt than me. I am probably the only PC EU player who has dueled dozens of your 'best skilled NA players' as well, and you don't want to go in there either.

You should stop throwing taunts around, there is literally only one PC EU stam NB on a highly DEDICATED dueling build that can even compete with my sorc, and that's not you.

The problem with this type of bragging is that it tries to push exclusivity on the basis of experience.

I could write a similar type of 'i did that and killed that and thousands and thousands' and since i've seen how you play i could easily tell you that 'i fought great sorcs and that's not you'. And unlike your statement i'd have ground for that.

But what's the point?

The only reason i poked your ego was your offensive and inappropriate behavior.

There's one thing that distinguish great players from good players. In any game in the world.

Great players aren't arrogant. They respect each single one of their opponent. They got nothing to prove. They already proved it all.

So a great player would never have try to assert dominance, by preassuming inferiority in other people. Great players love to find somebody of a similar level, because everything else is too easy and boring.

I mentioned my pvp skills only to try to stop false personal insults and assumptions.

You mention yours to intimidate the opponent.

You could've researched the subject. You could've asked around. You could've asked me.

Instead you added arrogance on top of your ignorance and called it a day.

That's why i can say with a lot of certainty that you will lose our duels.

Not because your experience or your motor skills.

But because you underestimate people and allow your emotions to talk for you.

You will lose because emotions always lose. You will make yourself lose.

This above is irrelevant to me. You're just another overemotional guy with lack of empathy and consequent social deficiencies.

I feel for you, but to help you i need you to want to get the help.

LegendaryMage wrote: »

As for you, you should be happy you never got to duel me when I was actively into it, your whole PVP world would have collapsed in less than an hour if that's what you value (dueling skill). Then there would be excuses 'sorc op, nb no tools blah blah' and we'd get nowhere, so just forget it. Now that's that, dueling discussion over. You got no chance 9 out of 10 fights, I'm sorry but that's how it is.

Since, unlike you i know what i'm talking about i do regret you fall as low as to expose yourself on the forums.

You already lost, without even starting a duel.

You've lost in the game of respect. And thus you will lose any actual duel in the game.

I am truly sorry about that.

Whatever dude, I didn't even read what you said. You're welcome to come see me any time you want. Now chill.

geonsocal · October 2017

hey man - what the hecks happened to that great: my response to my miat video thread???

it appears to have been erased from the anals of history...

Shardan4968 · October 2017

First of all this thread is being offtopic which is really good thing for ZOS, because they are just waiting to close problematic thread and cheat lovers (you just got insulted, bruh), who just wants everyone to move on and forget about the problem.
Second of all can some please tell me why ZOS closed Jonny's new thread? Did someone post really awful thing? Or they are like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0MK7qz13bU

And @Dorrino don't talk about emotions when you are being aggresive and shout at people with different opinion like in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqEq8mxwt2M

Dorrino · October 2017

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Listen sweetie, I've been dueling since launch of the game, kept the dueling scene active on PC EU all this time, dueled tens of thousands of players and who knows how many more along the years. To be honest, I don't think that there's anyone in this whole game that has had more duels under their belt than me. I am probably the only PC EU player who has dueled dozens of your 'best skilled NA players' as well, and you don't want to go in there either.

You should stop throwing taunts around, there is literally only one PC EU stam NB on a highly DEDICATED dueling build that can even compete with my sorc, and that's not you.

The problem with this type of bragging is that it tries to push exclusivity on the basis of experience.

I could write a similar type of 'i did that and killed that and thousands and thousands' and since i've seen how you play i could easily tell you that 'i fought great sorcs and that's not you'. And unlike your statement i'd have ground for that.

But what's the point?

The only reason i poked your ego was your offensive and inappropriate behavior.

There's one thing that distinguish great players from good players. In any game in the world.

Great players aren't arrogant. They respect each single one of their opponent. They got nothing to prove. They already proved it all.

So a great player would never have try to assert dominance, by preassuming inferiority in other people. Great players love to find somebody of a similar level, because everything else is too easy and boring.

I mentioned my pvp skills only to try to stop false personal insults and assumptions.

You mention yours to intimidate the opponent.

You could've researched the subject. You could've asked around. You could've asked me.

Instead you added arrogance on top of your ignorance and called it a day.

That's why i can say with a lot of certainty that you will lose our duels.

Not because your experience or your motor skills.

But because you underestimate people and allow your emotions to talk for you.

You will lose because emotions always lose. You will make yourself lose.

This above is irrelevant to me. You're just another overemotional guy with lack of empathy and consequent social deficiencies.

I feel for you, but to help you i need you to want to get the help.

LegendaryMage wrote: »

As for you, you should be happy you never got to duel me when I was actively into it, your whole PVP world would have collapsed in less than an hour if that's what you value (dueling skill). Then there would be excuses 'sorc op, nb no tools blah blah' and we'd get nowhere, so just forget it. Now that's that, dueling discussion over. You got no chance 9 out of 10 fights, I'm sorry but that's how it is.

Since, unlike you i know what i'm talking about i do regret you fall as low as to expose yourself on the forums.

You already lost, without even starting a duel.

You've lost in the game of respect. And thus you will lose any actual duel in the game.

I am truly sorry about that.

Whatever dude, I didn't even read what you said. You're welcome to come see me any time you want. Now chill.

"Great players aren't arrogant. They respect each single one of their opponent. They got nothing to prove. They already proved it all."

Dorrino · October 2017

Shardan4968 wrote: »

First of all this thread is being offtopic which is really good thing for ZOS, because they are just waiting to close problematic thread and cheat lovers (you just got insulted, bruh), who just wants everyone to move on and forget about the problem.
Second of all can some please tell me why ZOS closed Jonny's new thread? Did someone post really awful thing? Or they are like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0MK7qz13bU

And @Dorrino don't talk about emotions when you are being aggresive and shout at people with different opinion like in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqEq8mxwt2M

Ah, i love that video, and especially how people misinterpret it:)

People asked me to explain what was the problem with ganking. And i did. I didn't know the guy that asked did it because he wanted some fame (tm) from publishing that video. So i explained it with examples.

And some people watching it are so like 'wow that guy is angry':D

I wasn't.

To be fair, when i watched that video i also had an impression 'wow that guy is so angry':) Well, that's how i explain stuff from time to time:)

Wrubius_Coronaria · October 2017

geonsocal wrote: »

hey man - what the hecks happened to that great: my response to my miat video thread???

it appears to have been erased from the anals of history...

The thread has been deleted by moderators because it was full of many conflicts.

Ulfgarde · October 2017

This thread has basically turned into "1v1 me" because apparently mechanical skill has to do with this very argument.

The point still stands on both sides. Dueling and skill have nothing to do with arguing. If it was, then anyone who was god at the game (which is entirely a disputable and relative argument) would have final word. That isn't how reality works.

I think the main point is that ZOS has allowed something quite cheesy into their API. Miat used that to an advantage, sure, but it's impossible to blame him for it. You can only blame ZOS for letting this addon go on for THIS LONG and not do much about it.

Attacking Miat means nothing. The addon is already there and will be there until ZOS decides to do anything about it. Attempting to disparage his character for it only makes you look like a fool.

Do I think the addon should exist? Hell no, but ZOS has allowed a vulnerability in their code. It's destroying the skill difference of a knowledgeable, perceptive player and unskilled, inexperienced ones.

LegendaryMage · October 2017

Dorrino wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Listen sweetie, I've been dueling since launch of the game, kept the dueling scene active on PC EU all this time, dueled tens of thousands of players and who knows how many more along the years. To be honest, I don't think that there's anyone in this whole game that has had more duels under their belt than me. I am probably the only PC EU player who has dueled dozens of your 'best skilled NA players' as well, and you don't want to go in there either.

You should stop throwing taunts around, there is literally only one PC EU stam NB on a highly DEDICATED dueling build that can even compete with my sorc, and that's not you.

The problem with this type of bragging is that it tries to push exclusivity on the basis of experience.

I could write a similar type of 'i did that and killed that and thousands and thousands' and since i've seen how you play i could easily tell you that 'i fought great sorcs and that's not you'. And unlike your statement i'd have ground for that.

But what's the point?

The only reason i poked your ego was your offensive and inappropriate behavior.

There's one thing that distinguish great players from good players. In any game in the world.

Great players aren't arrogant. They respect each single one of their opponent. They got nothing to prove. They already proved it all.

So a great player would never have try to assert dominance, by preassuming inferiority in other people. Great players love to find somebody of a similar level, because everything else is too easy and boring.

I mentioned my pvp skills only to try to stop false personal insults and assumptions.

You mention yours to intimidate the opponent.

You could've researched the subject. You could've asked around. You could've asked me.

Instead you added arrogance on top of your ignorance and called it a day.

That's why i can say with a lot of certainty that you will lose our duels.

Not because your experience or your motor skills.

But because you underestimate people and allow your emotions to talk for you.

You will lose because emotions always lose. You will make yourself lose.

This above is irrelevant to me. You're just another overemotional guy with lack of empathy and consequent social deficiencies.

I feel for you, but to help you i need you to want to get the help.

LegendaryMage wrote: »

As for you, you should be happy you never got to duel me when I was actively into it, your whole PVP world would have collapsed in less than an hour if that's what you value (dueling skill). Then there would be excuses 'sorc op, nb no tools blah blah' and we'd get nowhere, so just forget it. Now that's that, dueling discussion over. You got no chance 9 out of 10 fights, I'm sorry but that's how it is.

Since, unlike you i know what i'm talking about i do regret you fall as low as to expose yourself on the forums.

You already lost, without even starting a duel.

You've lost in the game of respect. And thus you will lose any actual duel in the game.

I am truly sorry about that.

Whatever dude, I didn't even read what you said. You're welcome to come see me any time you want. Now chill.

"Great players aren't arrogant. They respect each single one of their opponent. They got nothing to prove. They already proved it all."

Then stop being arrogant going around labeling yourself as 'the best stamblade NA' telling players how you'll kill them, how they can't kill you and what not. Then when you try and bite a bit more than you can chew, try and poke someone who actually CAN put you down consistently, you resort to attacking them on the basis of being egoistic, and then in the end you don't even show up lol

I offered to fight you with less than optimal conditions on the PTS and where are you? Rolling around in Cyrodiil killing potatoes and tripping how you're doing something challenging.

I don't have anything to prove to you, myself or anyone else. I offered you a friendly challenge which you misinterpreted entirely.

DDuke · October 2017

Dorrino wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ok, I'll go record some duels on PTS then - if only to prove you wrong. I already did some on PTS and beat some good sorcs & stamblades with it.

What you can expect is a lot of rinse&repeat of trying to land the burst combo (just like any other build) & kiting around fear trap/rearming trap while multiple hard hitting DoTs pressure the opponent.

Truly a unique playstyle - closest equivalent would be sorc with mines, but it's different (and has a really, really steep learning curve).

If it doesn't incorporate snipe as the main spammable - this build is irrelevant to our discussion. If it does - i'd like to know how exactly do you expect to pull it off in 1v1.

As promised:

https://youtu.be/LtD7d7kopLY

This is how you 1v1 with Bow/Bow - took me ages to find signs of life on PTS, so I couldn't get more than a couple duels in, but the build works vs everything if played right and no one is cheating with addons.

I'm still a novice to the build as well (playtime in hours isn't even in double digits yet), so there's a loooot of untapped potential still that's not shown on the video.

But yes, I hope we can throw this "bow sucks anyway so it doesn't matter if we ruin it with an addon" derpy argument to the trash bin where it belongs and then incinerate it for good measure.

LegendaryMage · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ok, I'll go record some duels on PTS then - if only to prove you wrong. I already did some on PTS and beat some good sorcs & stamblades with it.

What you can expect is a lot of rinse&repeat of trying to land the burst combo (just like any other build) & kiting around fear trap/rearming trap while multiple hard hitting DoTs pressure the opponent.

Truly a unique playstyle - closest equivalent would be sorc with mines, but it's different (and has a really, really steep learning curve).

If it doesn't incorporate snipe as the main spammable - this build is irrelevant to our discussion. If it does - i'd like to know how exactly do you expect to pull it off in 1v1.

As promised:
https://youtu.be/LtD7d7kopLY

This is how you 1v1 with Bow/Bow - took me ages to find signs of life on PTS, so I couldn't get more than a couple duels in, but the build works vs everything if played right and no one is cheating with addons.

I'm still a novice to the build as well (playtime in hours isn't even in double digits yet), so there's a loooot of untapped potential still that's not shown on the video.

But yes, I hope we can throw this "bow sucks anyway so it doesn't matter if we ruin it with an addon" derpy argument to the trash bin where it belongs and then incinerate it for good measure.

Ironically I just dueled a guy 10 mins. ago that was using a double bow setup and even though he died in the end, he was very elusive and his damage was pretty decent too. Much respect for originality.

ARE U HAPPY NOW ZOS IS DOING SOMETHING***Interview With Miat*** Lets Talk Add Ons, Cheating and Q/A

ARE U HAPPY NOW ZOS IS DOING SOMETHINGInterview With Miat Lets Talk Add Ons, Cheating and Q/A