Change DK wings.

ak_pvp

DK wings currently are incredibly useless thanks to it being nerfed badly. And if they ever fix permablocking, then DK has little defense outside of that.

Lets take a look:

In CP all light, it costs 3.4k mag. That is a lot. Wayy too much infact for what it does.

It has BOTH a time and a projectile limit. Comparing it to shields in time isn't fair due to it being projectile based.

Some status effects ignore the reflect.

Many projectiles ignore the reflect. The only two that have a basis is bird, a summon and meteor, an AoE. Everything else should be reflected.

What should be done: Make all projectiles that aren't the 2 above reflected. There are quite a few options after this.

• Make it infinite projectiles for a short duration. Quite OP, due to no counters but has a high mag cost. Scales well against a group.
• Make it Infinite duration and 4 projectiles. Can use all 4 projectiles, and won't need spamming, Countered by using light attacks or by multiple opponents
• Add an extra bonus like warden. I suggest a snare removal+immunity, won't increase mobility greatly like expedition, (DK should be slightly slower) but would allow DKs something instead of shuffle/mist and to not be held down as easily. Replace the resistance morph.
• Mildly dynamic. X duration, and X projectiles per person This way it would scale well without being OP in 1v1 (same as now, just bugfix'd) Maybe the amount of players could influence the duration too.

I personally prefer option 3/4 because they each offer something that won't be incredibly overpowered but handy to the DK toolkit of a slow, but consistent class that can deal with damage.

Juhasow

It'll be 6 seconds now it seems according to PTS patch notes.

Draconic Power
Reflective Scale: Increased the duration of this ability and it morphs to 6 seconds from 4 seconds.

GeorgeBlack

Stamina morph.

Zophix

Seriously guys come on...

Wings is not a buff that you should be able to have a 100% up-time on. If you are fighting a a sorc for example you should have to predict when the crystal frag comes, its to easy to be able to spam wings. Wings are very strong and they just got better.

ak_pvp

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Stamina morph.

I hope you know it'd be more useful for a stamDK if it costs magicka. Because then it can sub for rolldodge or the snare removal in mag. Saving stam for breakfree etc.

Juhasow wrote: »

It'll be 6 seconds now it seems according to PTS patch notes.

Draconic Power
Reflective Scale: Increased the duration of this ability and it morphs to 6 seconds from 4 seconds.

A start, but broken beyond belief and doesn't scale well at all.

Zophix wrote: »

Seriously guys come on...

Wings is not a buff that you should be able to have a 100% up-time on. If you are fighting a a sorc for example you should have to predict when the crystal frag comes, its to easy to be able to spam wings. Wings are very strong and they just got better.

Shields, block cloak uptime fine?

And thats why I listed the options. 3/4 mainly. Perma uptime is impossible for a DK. its broken too quickly, and the cost is very high. And whilst good in a 1v1 it only affects frags out of the sorc kit. Then its decimated in anything bigger.

GeorgeBlack

Low costing stamina morph*

Kilandros

Make wings a 10 second 10m AoE Missile Dampening buff for you and your allies that reduces the damage of ranged effects by 35%. Done.

Juhasow

I would add Minor Heroism for 6 seconds after reflecting projectile. Kinda similar to Shimmering shield on Warden but it's minor because You can refelct all projectiles into enemie not just absorb them.

Maulkin

I would probably increase the projectiles to 6 before increasing the duration to 6". Saves you against a barrage but not increasing the up-time against 1-2 opponents.

I'll be keen to see how it'll play now though. I still find it a very potent skill. When you play versus Sorcs or ranged mageblades you shut down a lot of damage. It's the birds that *** you up these days though.

Wikter_Bravo

Issue I have had with wings is that some projectiles that its meant to reflect, don't reflect it 50% of the time. A fix for that would be having it reflect infinite projectiles for that duration. That then begs the question of, is it then more broken then it is now, for example a mag dk in theory could negate all ranged attack. Even then i still wouldn't risk using wings on my stam dk for the simple thing that it costs a bit too much. On the topic of things being broken, dragon leap is one of those things, maybe it just happens to me but when i take flight one of four things happen. 1. I leap and hit my target 2. My ulti is used by i get stuck in that animation where my wings come out but it looks like I ve eaten a bad egg 3. I get booted from the server 4. I leap into a sexy loading screen only to apear dead five mins later. Would like to see the fixes behind these skills.

ak_pvp

Juhasow wrote: »

I would add Minor Heroism for 6 seconds after reflecting projectile. Kinda similar to Shimmering shield on Warden but it's minor because You can refelct all projectiles into enemie not just absorb them.

Warden shield also returns mag.

Toc de Malsvi

Kilandros wrote: »

Make wings a 10 second 10m AoE Missile Dampening buff for you and your allies that reduces the damage of ranged effects by 35%. Done.

This is better without destroying all ranged builds.

DarkVector_PL wrote: »

Issue I have had with wings is that some projectiles that its meant to reflect, don't reflect it 50% of the time. A fix for that would be having it reflect infinite projectiles for that duration. That then begs the question of, is it then more broken then it is now, for example a mag dk in theory could negate all ranged attack. Even then i still wouldn't risk using wings on my stam dk for the simple thing that it costs a bit too much. On the topic of things being broken, dragon leap is one of those things, maybe it just happens to me but when i take flight one of four things happen. 1. I leap and hit my target 2. My ulti is used by i get stuck in that animation where my wings come out but it looks like I ve eaten a bad egg 3. I get booted from the server 4. I leap into a sexy loading screen only to apear dead five mins later. Would like to see the fixes behind these skills.

This happens to me as well, sometimes i leap and i actually fly through the air but deal no damage and knock no one down. Just lose my ult.

Maulkin

Juhasow wrote: »

I would add Minor Heroism for 6 seconds after reflecting projectile. Kinda similar to Shimmering shield on Warden but it's minor because You can refelct all projectiles into enemie not just absorb them.

Not bad shout, actually. I kinda wanted a way to get expedition, like Warden Wings, but I understand the devs don't want DKs and Templars to be mobile more the "stand your ground" style of class. So the Heroism fits better and matches what the Stam DK gets via Heroic Slash too.

Rohamad_Ali

Juhasow wrote: »

It'll be 6 seconds now it seems according to PTS patch notes.

Draconic Power
Reflective Scale: Increased the duration of this ability and it morphs to 6 seconds from 4 seconds.

Needs to be 10 seconds because it has a cap on how many projectiles it can reflect . 10 seconds and it's not a useless resource drain and the limit already keeps it in check for spamming .

Maulkin

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

It'll be 6 seconds now it seems according to PTS patch notes.

Draconic Power
Reflective Scale: Increased the duration of this ability and it morphs to 6 seconds from 4 seconds.

Needs to be 10 seconds because it has a cap on how many projectiles it can reflect . 10 seconds and it's not a useless resource drain and the limit already keeps it in check for spamming .

Nah. 10 seconds makes it extremely OP against 1-2 players that are built for range. They either have to eat 4 of their own attacks (which even with light weaving is magicka very well spent by the DK) or face the fact you have infinite uptime on wings with 10" duration. Both put you at a ridiculously strong position.

ak_pvp

DK currently gets crushed by range above 15m. Too slow to catch up, and that range is getting weakened. It is also the least sustainable out of all defense methods, its like saying cloak shouldn't be up much.I don't see why either:

3rd option: Added effect, has to be something comparative to wardens heroism, while they can't reflect, they gain magicka via it. Im all for snare removal and immunity class wise. IIRC no class buff has snare immunity. And it would be a good replacement for shuffle/mist. Not too OP.

4th option: Works same on 1 person, so can't completely shut them down, but works 4projectiles per person so its not trash against groups, though it can be broken through individually.

ak_pvp

Kilandros wrote: »

Make wings a 10 second 10m AoE Missile Dampening buff for you and your allies that reduces the damage of ranged effects by 35%. Done.

Maulkin wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

It'll be 6 seconds now it seems according to PTS patch notes.

Draconic Power
Reflective Scale: Increased the duration of this ability and it morphs to 6 seconds from 4 seconds.

Needs to be 10 seconds because it has a cap on how many projectiles it can reflect . 10 seconds and it's not a useless resource drain and the limit already keeps it in check for spamming .

Nah. 10 seconds makes it extremely OP against 1-2 players that are built for range. They either have to eat 4 of their own attacks (which even with light weaving is magicka very well spent by the DK) or face the fact you have infinite uptime on wings with 10" duration. Both put you at a ridiculously strong position.

I ask, what about permablock. Or shields that give you permanent immunity to status effects and absorb (near) all damage. Or even a more similar option. Cloak, that can make most attacks miss and be kept up infinitely by NBs.

DKs are at a massive disadvantage against ranged classes, eating 4 light attacks is the least of their worries,

Maulkin

ak_pvp wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Make wings a 10 second 10m AoE Missile Dampening buff for you and your allies that reduces the damage of ranged effects by 35%. Done.

Maulkin wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

It'll be 6 seconds now it seems according to PTS patch notes.

Draconic Power
Reflective Scale: Increased the duration of this ability and it morphs to 6 seconds from 4 seconds.

Needs to be 10 seconds because it has a cap on how many projectiles it can reflect . 10 seconds and it's not a useless resource drain and the limit already keeps it in check for spamming .

Nah. 10 seconds makes it extremely OP against 1-2 players that are built for range. They either have to eat 4 of their own attacks (which even with light weaving is magicka very well spent by the DK) or face the fact you have infinite uptime on wings with 10" duration. Both put you at a ridiculously strong position.

I ask, what about permablock. Or shields that give you permanent immunity to status effects and absorb (near) all damage. Or even a more similar option. Cloak, that can make most attacks miss and be kept up infinitely by NBs.

DKs are at a massive disadvantage against ranged classes, eating 4 light attacks is the least of their worries,

Absorbing damage is different to returning damage (and CC), amplified. It's not comparable.

Shields should not be absorbing status effects, that *** is wrong. Can't get fixed/changed quick enough. Permablock, they are trying to deal with. Cloak, if you've played NB you'd know breaks very very often as is, it's mostly useful as a reactive magicka dodge against incoming projectiles.

Mag DKs traditionally did not struggle against ranged classes, they were the hard counter to them. It's the lack of decent gap closer since Invasion became inaccessible in my opinion. Which is another subject as I've been advocating for changes to Chains to mitigate that.

I use my DK mostly in BGs and the thing that I hate the most when I put wings up, is there's some *** Warden seemingly 100m away, spamming pidgeons at me. The only projectile not reflected before was Meteor, but now we have this cancer introduced by Wrobel's genius.

brandonv516

Lower the cost.

Wikter_Bravo

Maulkin wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Make wings a 10 second 10m AoE Missile Dampening buff for you and your allies that reduces the damage of ranged effects by 35%. Done.

Maulkin wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

It'll be 6 seconds now it seems according to PTS patch notes.

Draconic Power
Reflective Scale: Increased the duration of this ability and it morphs to 6 seconds from 4 seconds.

Needs to be 10 seconds because it has a cap on how many projectiles it can reflect . 10 seconds and it's not a useless resource drain and the limit already keeps it in check for spamming .

Nah. 10 seconds makes it extremely OP against 1-2 players that are built for range. They either have to eat 4 of their own attacks (which even with light weaving is magicka very well spent by the DK) or face the fact you have infinite uptime on wings with 10" duration. Both put you at a ridiculously strong position.

I ask, what about permablock. Or shields that give you permanent immunity to status effects and absorb (near) all damage. Or even a more similar option. Cloak, that can make most attacks miss and be kept up infinitely by NBs.

DKs are at a massive disadvantage against ranged classes, eating 4 light attacks is the least of their worries,

Absorbing damage is different to returning damage (and CC), amplified. It's not comparable.

Shields should not be absorbing status effects, that *** is wrong. Can't get fixed/changed quick enough. Permablock, they are trying to deal with. Cloak, if you've played NB you'd know breaks very very often as is, it's mostly useful as a reactive magicka dodge against incoming projectiles.

Mag DKs traditionally did not struggle against ranged classes, they were the hard counter to them. It's the lack of decent gap closer since Invasion became inaccessible in my opinion. Which is another subject as I've been advocating for changes to Chains to mitigate that.

I use my DK mostly in BGs and the thing that I hate the most when I put wings up, is there's some *** Warden seemingly 100m away, spamming pidgeons at me. The only projectile not reflected before was Meteor, but now we have this cancer introduced by Wrobel's genius.

But hey atleast you got chains...oh wait

Maulkin

DarkVector_PL wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Make wings a 10 second 10m AoE Missile Dampening buff for you and your allies that reduces the damage of ranged effects by 35%. Done.

Maulkin wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

It'll be 6 seconds now it seems according to PTS patch notes.

Draconic Power
Reflective Scale: Increased the duration of this ability and it morphs to 6 seconds from 4 seconds.

Needs to be 10 seconds because it has a cap on how many projectiles it can reflect . 10 seconds and it's not a useless resource drain and the limit already keeps it in check for spamming .

Nah. 10 seconds makes it extremely OP against 1-2 players that are built for range. They either have to eat 4 of their own attacks (which even with light weaving is magicka very well spent by the DK) or face the fact you have infinite uptime on wings with 10" duration. Both put you at a ridiculously strong position.

I ask, what about permablock. Or shields that give you permanent immunity to status effects and absorb (near) all damage. Or even a more similar option. Cloak, that can make most attacks miss and be kept up infinitely by NBs.

DKs are at a massive disadvantage against ranged classes, eating 4 light attacks is the least of their worries,

Absorbing damage is different to returning damage (and CC), amplified. It's not comparable.

Shields should not be absorbing status effects, that *** is wrong. Can't get fixed/changed quick enough. Permablock, they are trying to deal with. Cloak, if you've played NB you'd know breaks very very often as is, it's mostly useful as a reactive magicka dodge against incoming projectiles.

Mag DKs traditionally did not struggle against ranged classes, they were the hard counter to them. It's the lack of decent gap closer since Invasion became inaccessible in my opinion. Which is another subject as I've been advocating for changes to Chains to mitigate that.

I use my DK mostly in BGs and the thing that I hate the most when I put wings up, is there's some *** Warden seemingly 100m away, spamming pidgeons at me. The only projectile not reflected before was Meteor, but now we have this cancer introduced by Wrobel's genius.

But hey atleast you got chains...oh wait

To be fair to them, they did change the skill massively based on player feedback to make one morph pull you to the player. It's still not good enough though, but now it needs tweaks rather than overhaul.

I proposed giving it a 2" root rather than Empower and buffing its base damage. That would synergise better with Flame Lash, be a better stamina drain and also bring it closer in damage to Crit Rush. Already gives a 30% snare due to Warmth passive

GeorgeBlack

It doesn't matter how much you develop conversations. Zos doesn't care for the quality of ideas in a single thread.
You need simple topics but large in numbers to get attention and make them realize that people want to inprove DKs or templars or whatever

GeorgeBlack

Honestly...

Ideally people would talk about a topic in ONE thread and Zos should examine the feedback.

Since we don't get that reaction for our civilied conversations from them, maybe every person should open a new topic to say their opinion.
That might make to take a look at what's being said

Wikter_Bravo

Maulkin wrote: »

DarkVector_PL wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Make wings a 10 second 10m AoE Missile Dampening buff for you and your allies that reduces the damage of ranged effects by 35%. Done.

Maulkin wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

It'll be 6 seconds now it seems according to PTS patch notes.

Draconic Power
Reflective Scale: Increased the duration of this ability and it morphs to 6 seconds from 4 seconds.

Needs to be 10 seconds because it has a cap on how many projectiles it can reflect . 10 seconds and it's not a useless resource drain and the limit already keeps it in check for spamming .

Nah. 10 seconds makes it extremely OP against 1-2 players that are built for range. They either have to eat 4 of their own attacks (which even with light weaving is magicka very well spent by the DK) or face the fact you have infinite uptime on wings with 10" duration. Both put you at a ridiculously strong position.

I ask, what about permablock. Or shields that give you permanent immunity to status effects and absorb (near) all damage. Or even a more similar option. Cloak, that can make most attacks miss and be kept up infinitely by NBs.

DKs are at a massive disadvantage against ranged classes, eating 4 light attacks is the least of their worries,

Absorbing damage is different to returning damage (and CC), amplified. It's not comparable.

Shields should not be absorbing status effects, that *** is wrong. Can't get fixed/changed quick enough. Permablock, they are trying to deal with. Cloak, if you've played NB you'd know breaks very very often as is, it's mostly useful as a reactive magicka dodge against incoming projectiles.

Mag DKs traditionally did not struggle against ranged classes, they were the hard counter to them. It's the lack of decent gap closer since Invasion became inaccessible in my opinion. Which is another subject as I've been advocating for changes to Chains to mitigate that.

I use my DK mostly in BGs and the thing that I hate the most when I put wings up, is there's some *** Warden seemingly 100m away, spamming pidgeons at me. The only projectile not reflected before was Meteor, but now we have this cancer introduced by Wrobel's genius.

But hey atleast you got chains...oh wait

To be fair to them, they did change the skill massively based on player feedback to make one morph pull you to the player. It's still not good enough though, but now it needs tweaks rather than overhaul.

I proposed give it a 2" root rather than empower and buffing its base damage. That would synergise better with Flame Lash, be a better stamina drain and also bring it closer in damage to Crit Rush. Already gives a 3" snare due to Warmth passive[/

That would work well, did they fix the bug with it not pulling people who were slightly higher/lower than you? I remember that being a pain trying to pull things that where slightly 1mm higher than you. There could be room for a stamina morph to pull people away from crit rush give a bit more build diversity but hey still got alot of things to fix first.

Wikter_Bravo

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Honestly...

Ideally people would talk about a topic in ONE thread and Zos should examine the feedback.

Since we don't get that reaction for our civilied conversations from them, maybe every person should open a new topic to say their opinion.
That might make to take a look at what's being said

Tbh, im starting to think zenimax doesn't really care anymore, that or its hard to fix/balance things with the amount of people getting fed up of one skill because they couldn't burst/kill/dodge/block etc this one guy thus making it a long and hard battle to get anything done.

lucky_Sage

the 6 seconds i still dont see use cost to high for only worring about a few abilty. it needs a effect like heroism or removes snares

ak_pvp

Maulkin wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Make wings a 10 second 10m AoE Missile Dampening buff for you and your allies that reduces the damage of ranged effects by 35%. Done.

Maulkin wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

It'll be 6 seconds now it seems according to PTS patch notes.

Draconic Power
Reflective Scale: Increased the duration of this ability and it morphs to 6 seconds from 4 seconds.

Needs to be 10 seconds because it has a cap on how many projectiles it can reflect . 10 seconds and it's not a useless resource drain and the limit already keeps it in check for spamming .

Nah. 10 seconds makes it extremely OP against 1-2 players that are built for range. They either have to eat 4 of their own attacks (which even with light weaving is magicka very well spent by the DK) or face the fact you have infinite uptime on wings with 10" duration. Both put you at a ridiculously strong position.

I ask, what about permablock. Or shields that give you permanent immunity to status effects and absorb (near) all damage. Or even a more similar option. Cloak, that can make most attacks miss and be kept up infinitely by NBs.

DKs are at a massive disadvantage against ranged classes, eating 4 light attacks is the least of their worries,

Absorbing damage is different to returning damage (and CC), amplified. It's not comparable.

Shields should not be absorbing status effects, that *** is wrong. Can't get fixed/changed quick enough. Permablock, they are trying to deal with. Cloak, if you've played NB you'd know breaks very very often as is, it's mostly useful as a reactive magicka dodge against incoming projectiles.

Mag DKs traditionally did not struggle against ranged classes, they were the hard counter to them. It's the lack of decent gap closer since Invasion became inaccessible in my opinion. Which is another subject as I've been advocating for changes to Chains to mitigate that.

I use my DK mostly in BGs and the thing that I hate the most when I put wings up, is there's some *** Warden seemingly 100m away, spamming pidgeons at me. The only projectile not reflected before was Meteor, but now we have this cancer introduced by Wrobel's genius.

Heroism+mag+absorb. >>>Broken reflect + amp.

Cloaks weakness is aoes. All St can be dodged. And has other bonuses. Wings ONLY affects certain St projectiles.

And sure, DK used to be the counter to ranged. Back when they had a decent invasion gap closer, working wings, chains to pull from afar and heights, and 40m leap which also worked on heights.

They want DK to be slow lock down class, but take away tools to lock anyone down, or at least deal with anyone they can't lock down.

tplink3r1

It should give some kind of buff like Major/Minor expedition.

thankyourat

Wings do a good job at shutting down magblade

Jjitsuboy98

You would think that with all the hate and complaining Wrobel would be fired. The lag is unbearable and I can't even play half the time. They have screwed over the only class that I enjoy playing. Why do they not freaking fix chains to work correctly? Stone fist is garbage. Wings cost way to dam much to use. That's the main reason I stopped using them. I have to run so much freaking recovery and lose damage just to sustain. Flames of oblivion is another garbage skill. So is eruption. An execute would be handy at least a passive one. Our damage is just not enough when you factor in building to survive with block and Magicka sustain. Stam DK skills are even worse, the few we have.

Master_Kas

"Make it infinite projectiles for a short duration. Quite OP, due to no counters but has a high mag cost. Scales well against a group."

Would be my pick, since wings don't reflect everything anymore and is pretty expensive. Should make up for the lack of a proper gapcloser vs ranged/kite builds aswell