Change DK wings.

Maulkin

brandonv516 wrote: »

Lower the cost.

I don't think making it a spammable is a good idea to be honest.

ak_pvp wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Make wings a 10 second 10m AoE Missile Dampening buff for you and your allies that reduces the damage of ranged effects by 35%. Done.

Maulkin wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

It'll be 6 seconds now it seems according to PTS patch notes.

Draconic Power
Reflective Scale: Increased the duration of this ability and it morphs to 6 seconds from 4 seconds.

Needs to be 10 seconds because it has a cap on how many projectiles it can reflect . 10 seconds and it's not a useless resource drain and the limit already keeps it in check for spamming .

Nah. 10 seconds makes it extremely OP against 1-2 players that are built for range. They either have to eat 4 of their own attacks (which even with light weaving is magicka very well spent by the DK) or face the fact you have infinite uptime on wings with 10" duration. Both put you at a ridiculously strong position.

I ask, what about permablock. Or shields that give you permanent immunity to status effects and absorb (near) all damage. Or even a more similar option. Cloak, that can make most attacks miss and be kept up infinitely by NBs.

DKs are at a massive disadvantage against ranged classes, eating 4 light attacks is the least of their worries,

Absorbing damage is different to returning damage (and CC), amplified. It's not comparable.

Shields should not be absorbing status effects, that *** is wrong. Can't get fixed/changed quick enough. Permablock, they are trying to deal with. Cloak, if you've played NB you'd know breaks very very often as is, it's mostly useful as a reactive magicka dodge against incoming projectiles.

Mag DKs traditionally did not struggle against ranged classes, they were the hard counter to them. It's the lack of decent gap closer since Invasion became inaccessible in my opinion. Which is another subject as I've been advocating for changes to Chains to mitigate that.

I use my DK mostly in BGs and the thing that I hate the most when I put wings up, is there's some *** Warden seemingly 100m away, spamming pidgeons at me. The only projectile not reflected before was Meteor, but now we have this cancer introduced by Wrobel's genius.

Heroism+mag+absorb. >>>Broken reflect + amp.

Cloaks weakness is aoes. All St can be dodged. And has other bonuses. Wings ONLY affects certain St projectiles.

And sure, DK used to be the counter to ranged. Back when they had a decent invasion gap closer, working wings, chains to pull from afar and heights, and 40m leap which also worked on heights.

They want DK to be slow lock down class, but take away tools to lock anyone down, or at least deal with anyone they can't lock down.

I understand the issues with the reflect like getting hit with frags through Scales, but putting the issues aside for a second, which are these projectiles that are not reflected? Cause it's basically only wardens pidgeons from where I'm standing.

Master_Kas wrote: »

"Make it infinite projectiles for a short duration. Quite OP, due to no counters but has a high mag cost. Scales well against a group."

Would be my pick, since wings don't reflect everything anymore and is pretty expensive. Should make up for the lack of a proper gapcloser vs ranged/kite builds aswell

The lack of proper gap closer should be addressed with a few tweaks to Chains and shouldn't really be a basis for judging the merit of other skills.

Back to Wings, it was a stupid change to nerf them in the first place but the reason why I'm a bit sceptical about reverting them back now is because now we also have Spell Wall. So if Wings are reflecting infinite attacks for 4" then coupled with Spell Wall we're getting back to DKs being a very hard counter to ranged Sorcs and Mageblades.

Derra

2.5 to 3s reflect for infinite projectiles would have been my approach. But what do i know.

pieratsos

Derra wrote: »

2.5 to 3s reflect for infinite projectiles would have been my approach. But what do i know.

this

Alcast

Is there still an abilities left in the game that it actually does reflect?

Maulkin

Alcast wrote: »

Is there still an abilities left in the game that it actually does reflect?

I really don't understand the question. I've asked 3 times in this thread already and no one responds. Besides Warden birds and Meteor what else is not reflected?

devilsTear

Maulkin wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Is there still an abilities left in the game that it actually does reflect?

I really don't understand the question. I've asked 3 times in this thread already and no one responds. Besides Warden birds and Meteor what else is not reflected?

Force pulse comes to mind, I think it's only those 3.

ak_pvp

Alcast wrote: »

Is there still an abilities left in the game that it actually does reflect?

Wrobel uses it to reflect any useful suggestion.

IlCanis_LupuslI

ak_pvp wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Make wings a 10 second 10m AoE Missile Dampening buff for you and your allies that reduces the damage of ranged effects by 35%. Done.

Maulkin wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

It'll be 6 seconds now it seems according to PTS patch notes.

Draconic Power
Reflective Scale: Increased the duration of this ability and it morphs to 6 seconds from 4 seconds.

Needs to be 10 seconds because it has a cap on how many projectiles it can reflect . 10 seconds and it's not a useless resource drain and the limit already keeps it in check for spamming .

Nah. 10 seconds makes it extremely OP against 1-2 players that are built for range. They either have to eat 4 of their own attacks (which even with light weaving is magicka very well spent by the DK) or face the fact you have infinite uptime on wings with 10" duration. Both put you at a ridiculously strong position.

I ask, what about permablock. Or shields that give you permanent immunity to status effects and absorb (near) all damage. Or even a more similar option. Cloak, that can make most attacks miss and be kept up infinitely by NBs.

DKs are at a massive disadvantage against ranged classes, eating 4 light attacks is the least of their worries,

You forgot the insane presste a dk can keep up with their dots, not to mentions the sheer endless amount of skills with hard (And-, or-) soft ccs, oh yes and the 2nd best class damage ult in game, and have i mentioned beeing able to permablock 10 min strait even as a mag dk. And thats without mentioning that alot of their abilitoes slow you down.
Disadvantage???? Lol

Checkmath

oh a dk specialist apperead here...sure extreme pressure, permablock and second best ult....
most dks struggle with sustain, so their damage is quite low...so not much pressure there just from dots...
they dont take much damage because of their crowd control abilities, but thats only their purpose in this game. permablock on magdk, thats a funny one. as long as you dont have block cost reduction, you cant on a magdk, and believe me, most magdks need their jewellry enchants for other purposes as cost reduction of magicka skills. second best damage ulti, yes...pve wise. but standards use in pvp is pretty neglible, they rather use leap or meteor.

ak_pvp

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Make wings a 10 second 10m AoE Missile Dampening buff for you and your allies that reduces the damage of ranged effects by 35%. Done.

Maulkin wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

It'll be 6 seconds now it seems according to PTS patch notes.

Draconic Power
Reflective Scale: Increased the duration of this ability and it morphs to 6 seconds from 4 seconds.

Needs to be 10 seconds because it has a cap on how many projectiles it can reflect . 10 seconds and it's not a useless resource drain and the limit already keeps it in check for spamming .

Nah. 10 seconds makes it extremely OP against 1-2 players that are built for range. They either have to eat 4 of their own attacks (which even with light weaving is magicka very well spent by the DK) or face the fact you have infinite uptime on wings with 10" duration. Both put you at a ridiculously strong position.

I ask, what about permablock. Or shields that give you permanent immunity to status effects and absorb (near) all damage. Or even a more similar option. Cloak, that can make most attacks miss and be kept up infinitely by NBs.

DKs are at a massive disadvantage against ranged classes, eating 4 light attacks is the least of their worries,

You forgot the insane presste a dk can keep up with their dots, not to mentions the sheer endless amount of skills with hard (And-, or-) soft ccs, oh yes and the 2nd best class damage ult in game, and have i mentioned beeing able to permablock 10 min strait even as a mag dk.
Disadvantage???? Lol

Insane pressure. DK has 2 class dots on the target, engulfing is weak. These are easily healed through or shielded, or cloaked, or purged. Etc. Melee range

Endless skills with ccs. Petrify is melee, talons is good. Stonefist/chains are useless. Sorc has cc on Frags (maybe changed, not shown in any patch notes) Rune, pet, streak, mines, encase.

NB has a better hard cc.

Leap and standard are great, no issues with leap in pvp or standard in pve. Aside from leap bugs. But pure high damage is useless when you die in seconds or can't reach the target.

Permablock is broken, but has been nerfed so much more than any defense mech. It has built in snare and constant cost nerfs. Gbaoes and dots ignore it, so do some ccs. They are really trying to nerf it. Meanwhile over to shields... A duration nerf.

Ladislao

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

You forgot the insane presste a dk can keep up with their dots, not to mentions the sheer endless amount of skills with hard (And-, or-) soft ccs, oh yes and the 2nd best class damage ult in game, and have i mentioned beeing able to permablock 10 min strait even as a mag dk.
Disadvantage???? Lol

It's not enough for competitive™ players. Magicka DK should be META to be competitively™ viable. All that is not META in competitiveness™ is not viable

ak_pvp

If anyone wants an better opinion than most in every DK thread ever. Even kodi thinks they killed DKs.

Maulkin

Derra wrote: »

2.5 to 3s reflect for infinite projectiles would have been my approach. But what do i know.

2.5" would be acceptable for reflecting everything (bar ultis, like Meteor).

Any more than that and it becomes too much when you take into account they added Spell Wall in the game and the fact that when Scales got nerfed we didn't even have CPs in the game. The sustain of it on a 5L build would be extremely high, shutting down too many builds.

At 2.5" seconds it becomes a good survivability tool when your are trying to GTFO from a tight situation. I don't agree with increasing the duration to 6", personally. Because at that duration you can keep it up as part of an offensive rotation in a 1v1 against a ranged build (say mageblade) and it becomes a problem in that very niche scenario, while still being useless in open world PvP where you are being pelted by 10 people and it instantly gets used up.

And it should at least Absorb, if not reflect, the Warden Birds. Wardens have too many skills at the moment bypassing game mechanics. Shalks bypass block and dodge, Birds bypass dodge and reflects, even Flies are an undodgeable ranged DoT you can put on a player.

Asmael

Maulkin wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Is there still an abilities left in the game that it actually does reflect?

I really don't understand the question. I've asked 3 times in this thread already and no one responds. Besides Warden birds and Meteor what else is not reflected?

You are a magicka DK and face a magicka sorcerer. When are you going to use your wings? To counter C.Frag.

The issue is that while your wings are up, the sorcerer can still heavily pressure you with Force pulse, curse, mines, pets and ultimates. Effectively, all you'll do is push him/her into using Force pulse over C.Frag for the next 4s... at the cost of 4k magicka.

You face a magicka Warden, and literally nothing they use besides light / heavy attacks can be reflected.

You face a magicka DK, and can only expect to reflect Stonefist (well known fact every single mDK uses that over Fossilize, kappa).

You face a magicka templar and can expect to get jabs to death.

You face a magicka NB... and can actually prevent them from doing a lot IF they are using a ranged build - crippling grasp, Assassin's will and Swallow soul.

You face any melee stamina build, you have a dead slot. You face a Snipe spammer, it's actually useful, but I have Spell Wall for that.

Overall? Countering the (extremely rare) ranged magblades in open world or Snipe spammers is not worth a slot. I still tried to give it a shot recently, but ended up swapping it out after 10 minutes. If I need reflects, I'm just going to use Spell Wall.

Aquanova

Maulkin wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Is there still an abilities left in the game that it actually does reflect?

I really don't understand the question. I've asked 3 times in this thread already and no one responds. Besides Warden birds and Meteor what else is not reflected?

Crushing shock, Mages Wrath, Curse, Sap Essence, Jesus beam, Soul Assault, The Bird. How many more need to be out there that can't be reflected when almost all magicka classes have access to magicka melee skills? Sweeps, Concealed Weapon, Whip. Sorc can use CS and mages wrath to do a lot of damage from a distance and Wardens Bugs and Birds are......well you know

Only someone using a bow on both bars would in theory get shut down completely and they should with the range bows have which is well outside of any gap closer.

If DKs had the best gap closer in the game then I could see some reason to consider ranged builds being at a disadvantage but as it stands we have the worst and no ranged abilities to deal with an enemy from a distance and that's the trade off. Wings is part of our survivability so that for instance a sorc using CS and Mages Wrath can't just stay out of range and kite us and we can have some sort of offence from that distance.

Maulkin

Aquanova wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Is there still an abilities left in the game that it actually does reflect?

I really don't understand the question. I've asked 3 times in this thread already and no one responds. Besides Warden birds and Meteor what else is not reflected?

Crushing shock, Mages Wrath, Sap Essence, Jesus beam, Soul Assault, The Bird. How many more need to be out there that can't be reflected when almost all magicka classes have access to magicka melee skills? Sweeps, Concealed Weapon, Whip. Sorc can use CS and mages wrath to do a lot of damage from a distance and Wardens Bugs and Birds are......well you know

Only someone using a bow on both bars would in theory get shut down completely and they should with the range bows have which is well outside of any gap closer.

If DKs had the best gap closer in the game then I could see some reason to consider ranged builds being at a disadvantage but as it stands we have the worst and no ranged abilities to deal with an enemy from a distance and that's the trade off. Wings is part of our survivability so that for instance a sorc using CS and Mages Wrath can't just stay out of range and kite us and we can have some sort of offence from that distance.

What are you talking about? Half the stuff you are talking about are not even remotely close to projectiles. Channels like Jesus Beam and Soul Assault were never reflectable. Sap Essence is an AoE, never has any AoE been reflectable how do you reflect an AoE anyway? My original question to Alcast was because he said, nothing gets reflected any more.

And Mage's Wrath does feck all damage unless you're in execute range. It hits those heavy armor DKs for under 1k. Try and tell me how much damage you are doing.

Crushing Shock used to be reflected but it ended up consuming the 4 projectiles in one rotation (Light Attack + 3xCrush) so they made it unreflectable to prevent using up the Scales too quickly. Not a good change, but a necessary one when they set a limited number of projectiles.

Feanor

To me Wings is one of the skills that are really hard to balance. If they do what they are intended to do they completely shut down any ranged build. I have played against mDKs before Wings got nerfed and remember how painful that was. Practically untouchable for a ranged build.

Now, if you take that away bit by bit the ability very quickly becomes almost useless. The line is just so fine that you try to walk here. Thus some sort of secondary effect that gives a useful tool would be a good solution.

Maulkin

Asmael wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Is there still an abilities left in the game that it actually does reflect?

I really don't understand the question. I've asked 3 times in this thread already and no one responds. Besides Warden birds and Meteor what else is not reflected?

You are a magicka DK and face a magicka sorcerer. When are you going to use your wings? To counter C.Frag.

The issue is that while your wings are up, the sorcerer can still heavily pressure you with Force pulse, curse, mines, pets and ultimates. Effectively, all you'll do is push him/her into using Force pulse over C.Frag for the next 4s... at the cost of 4k magicka.

You face a magicka Warden, and literally nothing they use besides light / heavy attacks can be reflected.

You face a magicka DK, and can only expect to reflect Stonefist (well known fact every single mDK uses that over Fossilize, kappa).

You face a magicka templar and can expect to get jabs to death.

You face a magicka NB... and can actually prevent them from doing a lot IF they are using a ranged build - crippling grasp, Assassin's will and Swallow soul.

You face any melee stamina build, you have a dead slot. You face a Snipe spammer, it's actually useful, but I have Spell Wall for that.

Overall? Countering the (extremely rare) ranged magblades in open world or Snipe spammers is not worth a slot. I still tried to give it a shot recently, but ended up swapping it out after 10 minutes. If I need reflects, I'm just going to use Spell Wall.

Well with Fossilise down to melee range from next patch, you can now reflect all those Stone Fists that will be the new meta so you can call that a buff now :Kappa

I appreciate it's situational skill and needs some love, I'm not saying it's in good shape as is. There's a lot of overlap currently with Spell Wall which has also made it a bit unnecessary.

It's a good retreat skill for avoiding ranged CC in the form of Cripple, Frags, Flying Blade, Stone Fist. Rune Prison unfortunately will [snip] it up from next patch and that's a change on the Sorc mechanics that I don't agree with. If it at least blocked or mitigated Crushing Shock and Birds it would have been a very potent skill.

[Edited to remove profanity masking]

Bashev

Feanor wrote: »

To me Wings is one of the skills that are really hard to balance. If they do what they are intended to do they completely shut down any ranged build. I have played against mDKs before Wings got nerfed and remember how painful that was. Practically untouchable for a ranged build.

Now, if you take that away bit by bit the ability very quickly becomes almost useless. The line is just so fine that you try to walk here. Thus some sort of secondary effect that gives a useful tool would be a good solution.

Wings were good only in 1.6. Before that they drained your resources based on the skills that you reflect, after 1.6 they were kind of useless when ppl got more CP. Double mitigation and tons of unreflectable skills + the bugs that appeared. I still believe that there is a CD of max 4 projectiles relflected for 4 seconds, even if you spam your wings you cannot reflect more than that. Also if the skill hits you form range longer than 28m it bypass the wings. Similar issue to Mother swarm set, when you block a range attack which is more than 28m you dont pull the target.

I proposed one of the morphs to be changed to absorb + major heroism, but guess what ZoS read the changes and gave it to the Warden

IlCanis_LupuslI

ak_pvp wrote: »

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Make wings a 10 second 10m AoE Missile Dampening buff for you and your allies that reduces the damage of ranged effects by 35%. Done.

Maulkin wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

It'll be 6 seconds now it seems according to PTS patch notes.

Draconic Power
Reflective Scale: Increased the duration of this ability and it morphs to 6 seconds from 4 seconds.

Needs to be 10 seconds because it has a cap on how many projectiles it can reflect . 10 seconds and it's not a useless resource drain and the limit already keeps it in check for spamming .

Nah. 10 seconds makes it extremely OP against 1-2 players that are built for range. They either have to eat 4 of their own attacks (which even with light weaving is magicka very well spent by the DK) or face the fact you have infinite uptime on wings with 10" duration. Both put you at a ridiculously strong position.

I ask, what about permablock. Or shields that give you permanent immunity to status effects and absorb (near) all damage. Or even a more similar option. Cloak, that can make most attacks miss and be kept up infinitely by NBs.

DKs are at a massive disadvantage against ranged classes, eating 4 light attacks is the least of their worries,

You forgot the insane presste a dk can keep up with their dots, not to mentions the sheer endless amount of skills with hard (And-, or-) soft ccs, oh yes and the 2nd best class damage ult in game, and have i mentioned beeing able to permablock 10 min strait even as a mag dk.
Disadvantage???? Lol

Insane pressure. DK has 2 class dots on the target, engulfing is weak. These are easily healed through or shielded, or cloaked, or purged. Etc. Melee range

Endless skills with ccs. Petrify is melee, talons is good. Stonefist/chains are useless. Sorc has cc on Frags (maybe changed, not shown in any patch notes) Rune, pet, streak, mines, encase.

NB has a better hard cc.

Leap and standard are great, no issues with leap in pvp or standard in pve. Aside from leap bugs. But pure high damage is useless when you die in seconds or can't reach the target.

Permablock is broken, but has been nerfed so much more than any defense mech. It has built in snare and constant cost nerfs. Gbaoes and dots ignore it, so do some ccs. They are really trying to nerf it. Meanwhile over to shields... A duration nerf.

No issues healing though them.... If your in light stacking shield heavy just outhealing them.... In medium(not stamblade) they hurt (and don't drop your shield as a sorc the dots will drop your health below half before you know it).And if built right they are very strong .
I wouldn't call 15m melee lets forget about the fact its a soft cc and hard cc in 1.
I've played both and id take Petrify over mass hysteria any day.
Rune=defensive rune only used occasionally,
Pets= useless in open world
Streak= cost increase, Mist Form way better
Mine= rarely used in open world PvP
Encase= only used in zergs basically a crappy version of talons.

Substain on a dk= L2P issue experiwmced players have no problems there

Toc de Malsvi

Feanor wrote: »

To me Wings is one of the skills that are really hard to balance. If they do what they are intended to do they completely shut down any ranged build. I have played against mDKs before Wings got nerfed and remember how painful that was. Practically untouchable for a ranged build.

Now, if you take that away bit by bit the ability very quickly becomes almost useless. The line is just so fine that you try to walk here. Thus some sort of secondary effect that gives a useful tool would be a good solution.

I brought this up in the DK feedback thread.

They really need to move away from hard reflect and more into additional buffs gained. Which would allow for a longer duration and more creativity with the skill. Mobility, defenses, healing, resource restore could all be used in someway for this skill without completely locking down projectiles.

The nerfs that were brought to this skill were a direct consequence of its power vs projectiles. I can tell you from playing against good mag DK's using this skill in BG's it is still powerful in small group play, provided your opponents actually use projectiles. It loses its value in open world PVP where there is an endless list of gankers trying to pop people.

Wings offers a far too specialized defense that is very strong vs a small group of attacks but useless versus the rest. This is because of how strong it is vs that small group. If they reduced the power against that small group of attacks, then they could increase its benefits elsewhere without worrying about turning into perma-reflect defenses of the past.

@Kilandros suggested an AOE projectile damage reduction that could benefit allies, this would create a defensive zone for allies, without the problems of having to balance possible endless reflecting of projectiles. This would also allow for more tertiary benefits.

Aquanova

Maulkin wrote: »

Aquanova wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Is there still an abilities left in the game that it actually does reflect?

I really don't understand the question. I've asked 3 times in this thread already and no one responds. Besides Warden birds and Meteor what else is not reflected?

Crushing shock, Mages Wrath, Sap Essence, Jesus beam, Soul Assault, The Bird. How many more need to be out there that can't be reflected when almost all magicka classes have access to magicka melee skills? Sweeps, Concealed Weapon, Whip. Sorc can use CS and mages wrath to do a lot of damage from a distance and Wardens Bugs and Birds are......well you know

Only someone using a bow on both bars would in theory get shut down completely and they should with the range bows have which is well outside of any gap closer.

If DKs had the best gap closer in the game then I could see some reason to consider ranged builds being at a disadvantage but as it stands we have the worst and no ranged abilities to deal with an enemy from a distance and that's the trade off. Wings is part of our survivability so that for instance a sorc using CS and Mages Wrath can't just stay out of range and kite us and we can have some sort of offence from that distance.

What are you talking about? Half the stuff you are talking about are not even remotely close to projectiles. Channels like Jesus Beam and Soul Assault were never reflectable. Sap Essence is an AoE, never has any AoE been reflectable how do you reflect an AoE anyway? My original question to Alcast was because he said, nothing gets reflected any more.

And Mage's Wrath does feck all damage unless you're in execute range. It hits those heavy armor DKs for under 1k. Try and tell me how much damage you are doing.

Crushing Shock used to be reflected but it ended up consuming the 4 projectiles in one rotation (Light Attack + 3xCrush) so they made it unreflectable to prevent using up the Scales too quickly. Not a good change, but a necessary one when they set a limited number of projectiles.

My point is all the things i listed are unaffected by wings so why do you ask how many "projectiles" are reflectible. Does there need to be any more skills that wings dont effect for it to be near useless?

Crushing shock does not do "feck damage" used with Mages Wrath can pressure a DK and they won't be spamming wings. I'd weave CS with MW and wear the DK down from a distance, they can't use burning embers for a cheap heal from range. You make it sound as if ranged builds are totally shut down by wings and my point is there not. Other classes have good options for damage from a distance and we do not!

Xvorg

I have an idea about wings,I put it in another post: what about wings makig you jump back, putting yu outside melee range (gap opener)? Like the secondary effect of Magnum shot. You can put a CD or a cost increase nerf like streak to avoid spamming it.

To me, it makes perfect sense with the concept of a DK and it could have a great synergie with chains.

Maulkin

Aquanova wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Aquanova wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Is there still an abilities left in the game that it actually does reflect?

I really don't understand the question. I've asked 3 times in this thread already and no one responds. Besides Warden birds and Meteor what else is not reflected?

Crushing shock, Mages Wrath, Sap Essence, Jesus beam, Soul Assault, The Bird. How many more need to be out there that can't be reflected when almost all magicka classes have access to magicka melee skills? Sweeps, Concealed Weapon, Whip. Sorc can use CS and mages wrath to do a lot of damage from a distance and Wardens Bugs and Birds are......well you know

Only someone using a bow on both bars would in theory get shut down completely and they should with the range bows have which is well outside of any gap closer.

If DKs had the best gap closer in the game then I could see some reason to consider ranged builds being at a disadvantage but as it stands we have the worst and no ranged abilities to deal with an enemy from a distance and that's the trade off. Wings is part of our survivability so that for instance a sorc using CS and Mages Wrath can't just stay out of range and kite us and we can have some sort of offence from that distance.

What are you talking about? Half the stuff you are talking about are not even remotely close to projectiles. Channels like Jesus Beam and Soul Assault were never reflectable. Sap Essence is an AoE, never has any AoE been reflectable how do you reflect an AoE anyway? My original question to Alcast was because he said, nothing gets reflected any more.

And Mage's Wrath does feck all damage unless you're in execute range. It hits those heavy armor DKs for under 1k. Try and tell me how much damage you are doing.

Crushing Shock used to be reflected but it ended up consuming the 4 projectiles in one rotation (Light Attack + 3xCrush) so they made it unreflectable to prevent using up the Scales too quickly. Not a good change, but a necessary one when they set a limited number of projectiles.

My point is all the things i listed are unaffected by wings so why do you ask how many "projectiles" are reflectible. Does there need to be any more skills that wings dont effect for it to be near useless?

Crushing shock does not do "feck damage" used with Mages Wrath can pressure a DK and they won't be spamming wings. I'd light attack weave CS and mix in MW and wear the DK down from a distance, they can't use burning embers for a cheap heal from range. You make it sound as if ranged builds are totally shut down by wings and my point is there not. Other classes have good options for damage from a distance and we do not!

You're typing whatever comes into your head know. I asked for projectiles and you kept listing stuff that are not projectiles, then you are confused when called up on it. Did I say that more stuff should not be reflectable?

I didn't say Crushing Shock does ** ** all damage. I said that about Mage's Wrath. They are different skills.

I didn't make any point about ranged builds being totally shut down. They used to be totally shut down when the skill reflected everything for 4". Now it needs some love.

You seem to be very confused about the conversation we're having here. The only thing I asked was which projectiles are not reflected and based on that you constructed an imaginary conversation in your head.

BohnT

Changing the defensive morph to remove snares would fit perfectly with the theme of wings and would give dks a much needed buff in pvp.

You use your wings and the wind they create removes any snare and gives you snare immunity for 4 seconds.
You can reflect 4 projectiles over 4 seconds.

Aquanova

Maulkin wrote: »

Aquanova wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Aquanova wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Is there still an abilities left in the game that it actually does reflect?

I really don't understand the question. I've asked 3 times in this thread already and no one responds. Besides Warden birds and Meteor what else is not reflected?

Crushing shock, Mages Wrath, Sap Essence, Jesus beam, Soul Assault, The Bird. How many more need to be out there that can't be reflected when almost all magicka classes have access to magicka melee skills? Sweeps, Concealed Weapon, Whip. Sorc can use CS and mages wrath to do a lot of damage from a distance and Wardens Bugs and Birds are......well you know

Only someone using a bow on both bars would in theory get shut down completely and they should with the range bows have which is well outside of any gap closer.

If DKs had the best gap closer in the game then I could see some reason to consider ranged builds being at a disadvantage but as it stands we have the worst and no ranged abilities to deal with an enemy from a distance and that's the trade off. Wings is part of our survivability so that for instance a sorc using CS and Mages Wrath can't just stay out of range and kite us and we can have some sort of offence from that distance.

What are you talking about? Half the stuff you are talking about are not even remotely close to projectiles. Channels like Jesus Beam and Soul Assault were never reflectable. Sap Essence is an AoE, never has any AoE been reflectable how do you reflect an AoE anyway? My original question to Alcast was because he said, nothing gets reflected any more.

And Mage's Wrath does feck all damage unless you're in execute range. It hits those heavy armor DKs for under 1k. Try and tell me how much damage you are doing.

Crushing Shock used to be reflected but it ended up consuming the 4 projectiles in one rotation (Light Attack + 3xCrush) so they made it unreflectable to prevent using up the Scales too quickly. Not a good change, but a necessary one when they set a limited number of projectiles.

My point is all the things i listed are unaffected by wings so why do you ask how many "projectiles" are reflectible. Does there need to be any more skills that wings dont effect for it to be near useless?

Crushing shock does not do "feck damage" used with Mages Wrath can pressure a DK and they won't be spamming wings. I'd light attack weave CS and mix in MW and wear the DK down from a distance, they can't use burning embers for a cheap heal from range. You make it sound as if ranged builds are totally shut down by wings and my point is there not. Other classes have good options for damage from a distance and we do not!

You're typing whatever comes into your head know. I asked for projectiles and you kept listing stuff that are not projectiles, then you are confused when called up on it. Did I say that more stuff that should not not be reflectable?

I didn't say Crushing Shock does ** ** all damage. I said that about Mage's Wrath. They are different skills.

I didn't make any point about ranged builds being totally shut down. They used to be totally shut down when the skill reflected everything for 4". Now it needs some love.

You seem to be very confused about the conversation we're having here. The only thing I asked is which projectiles are not reflected and based on that you constructed an imaginary conversation in your head.

What evers dude. Im drinking right now which is what i normally do when i post. My point is wings is only effective against certain skills and totally useless against others unlike shields. It is not OP as some have made it sound on these forums and anyone arguing against any type of buff or worst getting it nerfed isn't thinking about how situational it is.

Peace

NBrookus

Maulkin wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Is there still an abilities left in the game that it actually does reflect?

I really don't understand the question. I've asked 3 times in this thread already and no one responds. Besides Warden birds and Meteor what else is not reflected?

Wings -- when working -- reflects:

SORCS:
Overload light attacks
Crystal Frags

TEMPLARS:
Dark Flare (you still get debuffed)
Vamp Bane
Javelin

DKS:
Stonefist

NIGHTBLADES:
Impale
Assassin's Will
Crippling Grasp

WEAPON SKILLS:
Destructive Touch
Snipe
Poison Injection
Toxic Barrage

Xvorg

NBrookus wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Is there still an abilities left in the game that it actually does reflect?

I really don't understand the question. I've asked 3 times in this thread already and no one responds. Besides Warden birds and Meteor what else is not reflected?

Wings -- when working -- reflects:

SORCS:
Overload light attacks
Crystal Frags

TEMPLARS:
Dark Flare (you still get debuffed)
Vamp Bane
Javelin

DKS:
Stonefist

NIGHTBLADES:
Impale
Assassin's Will
Crippling Grasp

WEAPON SKILLS:
Destructive Touch
Snipe
Poison Injection
Toxic Barrage

I'm pretty sure it reflects Strife too

Bashev

NBrookus wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Is there still an abilities left in the game that it actually does reflect?

I really don't understand the question. I've asked 3 times in this thread already and no one responds. Besides Warden birds and Meteor what else is not reflected?

Wings -- when working -- reflects:

SORCS:
Overload light attacks
Crystal Frags

TEMPLARS:
Dark Flare (you still get debuffed)
Vamp Bane
Javelin

DKS:
Stonefist

NIGHTBLADES:
Impale
Assassin's Will
Crippling Grasp

WEAPON SKILLS:
Destructive Touch
Snipe
Poison Injection
Toxic Barrage

There are a few more skills but the point is that the only class that you will shut down if you perma relfect projectiles is magicka NBs and bow gankers.

Toc de Malsvi

NBrookus wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Is there still an abilities left in the game that it actually does reflect?

I really don't understand the question. I've asked 3 times in this thread already and no one responds. Besides Warden birds and Meteor what else is not reflected?

Wings -- when working -- reflects:

SORCS:
Overload light attacks
Crystal Frags

TEMPLARS:
Dark Flare (you still get debuffed)
Vamp Bane
Javelin

DKS:
Stonefist

NIGHTBLADES:
Impale
Assassin's Will
Crippling Grasp

WEAPON SKILLS:
Destructive Touch
Snipe
Poison Injection
Toxic Barrage

You forgot Draining Shot, and I'm pretty sure it reflects Acid Spray.