Armor Abilities requiring 5 pieces to use

Izaki

paulsimonps wrote: »

RIP Heavy armor Tava's Tanks, I never liked you and you will not be missed.

This ^

eso_nya

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

eso_nya wrote: »

Any option to attach that change to battlespirit?

Or is there any pve benefit or imbalance that i overlooked?

What? You don't run immovable on a light armor stamina dd?

hehe, good one^^

What i dislike about changes like that:
The big "imbalance" in pvp comes from good players knowing what they r doing roflstomping newbies and noobs alike.

I got the warning 3 days before it hit pts and i already decided what to use when it goes live that way.

3 of my current pve builds will kick the bucket (two for that one, one for the changes to dsa resto), two more builds will be affected negatively but will manage. It is an inconvience, but i can work around it and it wont stop me from doing what im doing.

And i guess the same goes for pvp: This wont bring the immortals down. They r already done reworking their builds before it hits live and chances r, they find sth even more powerful than before. In case they even need to. This wont do anything against permablocking. This wont interfere with shieldstacking. This does nothing against permadodging. No changes to oneshots. No bad news for blazeplars. Zergs will be zergs. Any other qq-source i forgot?

The only thing that will happen: Tavas and Armor Master get buried next to TBS.

Publius_Scipio

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Personally there is a point where the dev must force players to make choices in order to spread things out naturally amongst the playerbase in the sake of balancing things. And this change makes sense. Someone outfitted in heavy armor isn't supposed to be mobile and evading. They are supposed to be absorbing damage. Just makes sense. It will give a nice boost to the value of playing a medium armor NB. In theory this change should help a bit with the "op" or "meta" builds where players are just choosing all the "best" stuff with few drawbacks and consequences that should be there in the build decision process.

Are the armor skill line passives being reworked the same way? To run off 5 pieces of same weight armor? Because the passives of heavy armor are pretty strong. Forcing the change on the passives will further make players make more serious build decisions, and I'd bet we'd see some less troll tanks in PvP. Not to mention further specify and define roles for trial groups and group dungeons.

There are exciting possibilities with this proposed change.

Keeping it short
-NB is currently the only class that can make MA work bc of extra Defense Option from cloak
-Restricting shuffle won't buff other MA users, it will be just as bad as it is now (dive, soul assault...)
-already to much snares in this game, this change will rub that in our faces even more
-double nerfing HA would be way over the top
-HA passives are fine, some sets are not
-as HA User you now have to either be permasnared or give up a good heal (rally)
-troll tanks use permablock, HA has no block passives (only constitution contributes to it), problem is block cost calculation

Further specify define roles for trial groups? What? Didn't know HA DDs where overperforming in vet trials or anything. And even if some pve DD would gimp himself with HA, they wouldn't make good use of shuffle. The only thing this changes for PvE is that Tava tanks are now officially dead.

Only thing I can say in response is that there should be choices that players have to make. So yeah, if you choose heavy armor you have to deal with snares. Or you can choose to run medium. It makes sense, if you are someone decked out in heavy armor, you aren't evading anything. There should be even more meaningful choices a player has to make in ESO when coming up with builds. ESO for a long time, from launch until now, has always featured these crazy builds that have allowed players to have way more benefits than drawbacks. And I don't see that as a great formula.

Joy_Division

Probably how it should have always been.

Heavy Armor's skill is trash, though it's not like heavy needs help atm.

Wrobel needs to redo the Elude morph, since it's pointless as the base skill requires 5 pieces of medium.

Chilly-McFreeze

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Personally there is a point where the dev must force players to make choices in order to spread things out naturally amongst the playerbase in the sake of balancing things. And this change makes sense. Someone outfitted in heavy armor isn't supposed to be mobile and evading. They are supposed to be absorbing damage. Just makes sense. It will give a nice boost to the value of playing a medium armor NB. In theory this change should help a bit with the "op" or "meta" builds where players are just choosing all the "best" stuff with few drawbacks and consequences that should be there in the build decision process.

Are the armor skill line passives being reworked the same way? To run off 5 pieces of same weight armor? Because the passives of heavy armor are pretty strong. Forcing the change on the passives will further make players make more serious build decisions, and I'd bet we'd see some less troll tanks in PvP. Not to mention further specify and define roles for trial groups and group dungeons.

There are exciting possibilities with this proposed change.

Keeping it short
-NB is currently the only class that can make MA work bc of extra Defense Option from cloak
-Restricting shuffle won't buff other MA users, it will be just as bad as it is now (dive, soul assault...)
-already to much snares in this game, this change will rub that in our faces even more
-double nerfing HA would be way over the top
-HA passives are fine, some sets are not
-as HA User you now have to either be permasnared or give up a good heal (rally)
-troll tanks use permablock, HA has no block passives (only constitution contributes to it), problem is block cost calculation

Further specify define roles for trial groups? What? Didn't know HA DDs where overperforming in vet trials or anything. And even if some pve DD would gimp himself with HA, they wouldn't make good use of shuffle. The only thing this changes for PvE is that Tava tanks are now officially dead.

Only thing I can say in response is that there should be choices that players have to make. So yeah, if you choose heavy armor you have to deal with snares. Or you can choose to run medium. It makes sense, if you are someone decked out in heavy armor, you aren't evading anything. There should be even more meaningful choices a player has to make in ESO when coming up with builds. ESO for a long time, from launch until now, has always featured these crazy builds that have allowed players to have way more benefits than drawbacks. And I don't see that as a great formula.

Agree, choices should matter. But that's a lot of text to bring that across while ignoring everyone of my points.

Publius_Scipio

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Personally there is a point where the dev must force players to make choices in order to spread things out naturally amongst the playerbase in the sake of balancing things. And this change makes sense. Someone outfitted in heavy armor isn't supposed to be mobile and evading. They are supposed to be absorbing damage. Just makes sense. It will give a nice boost to the value of playing a medium armor NB. In theory this change should help a bit with the "op" or "meta" builds where players are just choosing all the "best" stuff with few drawbacks and consequences that should be there in the build decision process.

Are the armor skill line passives being reworked the same way? To run off 5 pieces of same weight armor? Because the passives of heavy armor are pretty strong. Forcing the change on the passives will further make players make more serious build decisions, and I'd bet we'd see some less troll tanks in PvP. Not to mention further specify and define roles for trial groups and group dungeons.

There are exciting possibilities with this proposed change.

Keeping it short
-NB is currently the only class that can make MA work bc of extra Defense Option from cloak
-Restricting shuffle won't buff other MA users, it will be just as bad as it is now (dive, soul assault...)
-already to much snares in this game, this change will rub that in our faces even more
-double nerfing HA would be way over the top
-HA passives are fine, some sets are not
-as HA User you now have to either be permasnared or give up a good heal (rally)
-troll tanks use permablock, HA has no block passives (only constitution contributes to it), problem is block cost calculation

Further specify define roles for trial groups? What? Didn't know HA DDs where overperforming in vet trials or anything. And even if some pve DD would gimp himself with HA, they wouldn't make good use of shuffle. The only thing this changes for PvE is that Tava tanks are now officially dead.

Only thing I can say in response is that there should be choices that players have to make. So yeah, if you choose heavy armor you have to deal with snares. Or you can choose to run medium. It makes sense, if you are someone decked out in heavy armor, you aren't evading anything. There should be even more meaningful choices a player has to make in ESO when coming up with builds. ESO for a long time, from launch until now, has always featured these crazy builds that have allowed players to have way more benefits than drawbacks. And I don't see that as a great formula.

Agree, choices should matter. But that's a lot of text to bring that across while ignoring everyone of my points.

What about your points? I said it makes complete sense. You are wearing heavy armor, wtf are you looking to evade? You have to deal with the snares. That’s called real a trade off that matters. Let ZOS worry about dive and soul assault as a separate matter.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

If this happens I'll buy everyone at ZoS a beer. wearing 5 or more pieces of something to use the specific skill associated with that armor type should of been a thing years ago.

I hope they make this change.

Chilly-McFreeze

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Personally there is a point where the dev must force players to make choices in order to spread things out naturally amongst the playerbase in the sake of balancing things. And this change makes sense. Someone outfitted in heavy armor isn't supposed to be mobile and evading. They are supposed to be absorbing damage. Just makes sense. It will give a nice boost to the value of playing a medium armor NB. In theory this change should help a bit with the "op" or "meta" builds where players are just choosing all the "best" stuff with few drawbacks and consequences that should be there in the build decision process.

Are the armor skill line passives being reworked the same way? To run off 5 pieces of same weight armor? Because the passives of heavy armor are pretty strong. Forcing the change on the passives will further make players make more serious build decisions, and I'd bet we'd see some less troll tanks in PvP. Not to mention further specify and define roles for trial groups and group dungeons.

There are exciting possibilities with this proposed change.

Keeping it short
-NB is currently the only class that can make MA work bc of extra Defense Option from cloak
-Restricting shuffle won't buff other MA users, it will be just as bad as it is now (dive, soul assault...)
-already to much snares in this game, this change will rub that in our faces even more
-double nerfing HA would be way over the top
-HA passives are fine, some sets are not
-as HA User you now have to either be permasnared or give up a good heal (rally)
-troll tanks use permablock, HA has no block passives (only constitution contributes to it), problem is block cost calculation

Further specify define roles for trial groups? What? Didn't know HA DDs where overperforming in vet trials or anything. And even if some pve DD would gimp himself with HA, they wouldn't make good use of shuffle. The only thing this changes for PvE is that Tava tanks are now officially dead.

Only thing I can say in response is that there should be choices that players have to make. So yeah, if you choose heavy armor you have to deal with snares. Or you can choose to run medium. It makes sense, if you are someone decked out in heavy armor, you aren't evading anything. There should be even more meaningful choices a player has to make in ESO when coming up with builds. ESO for a long time, from launch until now, has always featured these crazy builds that have allowed players to have way more benefits than drawbacks. And I don't see that as a great formula.

Agree, choices should matter. But that's a lot of text to bring that across while ignoring everyone of my points.

What about your points? I said it makes complete sense. You are wearing heavy armor, wtf are you looking to evade? You have to deal with the snares. That’s called real a trade off that matters. Let ZOS worry about dive and soul assault as a separate matter.

Point is that MA still sucks, that this adds nothing for this armor type and that the big issues (high dmg HA sets, permablocking, shieldstacking) still exist and make this game unbalanced.

They should have buffed MA instead or additionally to this restriction. Plus changing ravager & co and block cost calculation. I take no issue with shuffle being restricted except that it kills pve tava tanks. But this change wont help medium armor to survive.

But what I really want to know now, what did you mean with:

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

. Not to mention further specify and define roles for trial groups and group dungeons.

There are exciting possibilities with this proposed change.

What possibilites opened up with the restriction? The possibility to be permasnared or without burst heal on stam HA? Tthat you can slot shuffle on MA, just like before? The possibilty to use a completly useless heavy armor skill? Or the possibilty to deconstruct armor master set pieces because there is no reason in doubleslotting these?

And how does this define roles for trial groups? No good DD runs heavy, tava tanks will become extinct. That's all that will be different in PvE.

Publius_Scipio

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Personally there is a point where the dev must force players to make choices in order to spread things out naturally amongst the playerbase in the sake of balancing things. And this change makes sense. Someone outfitted in heavy armor isn't supposed to be mobile and evading. They are supposed to be absorbing damage. Just makes sense. It will give a nice boost to the value of playing a medium armor NB. In theory this change should help a bit with the "op" or "meta" builds where players are just choosing all the "best" stuff with few drawbacks and consequences that should be there in the build decision process.

Are the armor skill line passives being reworked the same way? To run off 5 pieces of same weight armor? Because the passives of heavy armor are pretty strong. Forcing the change on the passives will further make players make more serious build decisions, and I'd bet we'd see some less troll tanks in PvP. Not to mention further specify and define roles for trial groups and group dungeons.

There are exciting possibilities with this proposed change.

Keeping it short
-NB is currently the only class that can make MA work bc of extra Defense Option from cloak
-Restricting shuffle won't buff other MA users, it will be just as bad as it is now (dive, soul assault...)
-already to much snares in this game, this change will rub that in our faces even more
-double nerfing HA would be way over the top
-HA passives are fine, some sets are not
-as HA User you now have to either be permasnared or give up a good heal (rally)
-troll tanks use permablock, HA has no block passives (only constitution contributes to it), problem is block cost calculation

Further specify define roles for trial groups? What? Didn't know HA DDs where overperforming in vet trials or anything. And even if some pve DD would gimp himself with HA, they wouldn't make good use of shuffle. The only thing this changes for PvE is that Tava tanks are now officially dead.

Only thing I can say in response is that there should be choices that players have to make. So yeah, if you choose heavy armor you have to deal with snares. Or you can choose to run medium. It makes sense, if you are someone decked out in heavy armor, you aren't evading anything. There should be even more meaningful choices a player has to make in ESO when coming up with builds. ESO for a long time, from launch until now, has always featured these crazy builds that have allowed players to have way more benefits than drawbacks. And I don't see that as a great formula.

Agree, choices should matter. But that's a lot of text to bring that across while ignoring everyone of my points.

What about your points? I said it makes complete sense. You are wearing heavy armor, wtf are you looking to evade? You have to deal with the snares. That’s called real a trade off that matters. Let ZOS worry about dive and soul assault as a separate matter.

Point is that MA still sucks, that this adds nothing for this armor type and that the big issues (high dmg HA sets, permablocking, shieldstacking) still exist and make this game unbalanced.

They should have buffed MA instead or additionally to this restriction. Plus changing ravager & co and block cost calculation. I take no issue with shuffle being restricted except that it kills pve tava tanks. But this change wont help medium armor to survive.

But what I really want to know now, what did you mean with:

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

. Not to mention further specify and define roles for trial groups and group dungeons.

There are exciting possibilities with this proposed change.

What possibilites opened up with the restriction? The possibility to be permasnared or without burst heal on stam HA? Tthat you can slot shuffle on MA, just like before? The possibilty to use a completly useless heavy armor skill? Or the possibilty to deconstruct armor master set pieces because there is no reason in doubleslotting these?

And how does this define roles for trial groups? No good DD runs heavy, tava tanks will become extinct. That's all that will be different in PvE.

Um, if you read my original post you'd see I mentioned PvE if ZOS would take this change further and tweak armor line passives. Other than that you keep mentioning Tava Tanks like the PvE universe is about to implode.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Joy_Division wrote: »

Probably how it should have always been.

Heavy Armor's skill is trash, though it's not like heavy needs help atm.

Wrobel needs to redo the Elude morph, since it's pointless as the base skill requires 5 pieces of medium.

They need to redo all the armor skills, they all have some modifiers for skill based on number of armor pieces you have on.

BohnT

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Probably how it should have always been.

Heavy Armor's skill is trash, though it's not like heavy needs help atm.

Wrobel needs to redo the Elude morph, since it's pointless as the base skill requires 5 pieces of medium.

They need to redo all the armor skills, they all have some modifiers for skill based on number of armor pieces you have on.

Yeah the morphs which increase the duration scaling with the amount of armor pieces you wear should be changed.
The others are kinda fine except for harness that skill needs a readjustment because it is too powerful right now.
On a magblade with 40k mag and no points into bastion i still get a 8.3k shield for 4k mag with the potential to restore 6k magicka.
When fighting against mag chars this results in +2k mag and a 8k shield that is too powerful.

Reduce it to regain a maximum of 50% of the cost not 133%

Aedaryl

BohnT wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Probably how it should have always been.

Heavy Armor's skill is trash, though it's not like heavy needs help atm.

Wrobel needs to redo the Elude morph, since it's pointless as the base skill requires 5 pieces of medium.

They need to redo all the armor skills, they all have some modifiers for skill based on number of armor pieces you have on.

Yeah the morphs which increase the duration scaling with the amount of armor pieces you wear should be changed.
The others are kinda fine except for harness that skill needs a readjustment because it is too powerful right now.
On a magblade with 40k mag and no points into bastion i still get a 8.3k shield for 4k mag with the potential to restore 6k magicka.
When fighting against mag chars this results in +2k mag and a 8k shield that is too powerful.

Reduce it to regain a maximum of 50% of the cost not 133%

Harness is a real problem yeah, having a defense spammable mechanic giving you free ressource is just stupid. ZoS need to nerf harness magicka back.

In cyrodil, there is always someone using magicka skills, this make sorc shield stacking too effective.

If a sorc want to shield stack, he should pay magicka for it.

Jade1986

Kammakazi wrote: »

All I'm thinking about is my tank, and how it no longer will be able to use Elude (more duration).

Elude was my go-to ability when tanking vAA HM (Axes) & vHRC HM (The Warrior) and this change is really huge.

Please re-think this, in a PvE perspective!

You have enough benefits from heavy , this change is how it should have been. If you have a competent healer and team you will be fine.

Jade1986

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Personally there is a point where the dev must force players to make choices in order to spread things out naturally amongst the playerbase in the sake of balancing things. And this change makes sense. Someone outfitted in heavy armor isn't supposed to be mobile and evading. They are supposed to be absorbing damage. Just makes sense. It will give a nice boost to the value of playing a medium armor NB. In theory this change should help a bit with the "op" or "meta" builds where players are just choosing all the "best" stuff with few drawbacks and consequences that should be there in the build decision process.

Are the armor skill line passives being reworked the same way? To run off 5 pieces of same weight armor? Because the passives of heavy armor are pretty strong. Forcing the change on the passives will further make players make more serious build decisions, and I'd bet we'd see some less troll tanks in PvP. Not to mention further specify and define roles for trial groups and group dungeons.

There are exciting possibilities with this proposed change.

I hope they change heavy back to a tanking only gear instead of the dps tank hybrid it has become.

Jade1986

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Personally there is a point where the dev must force players to make choices in order to spread things out naturally amongst the playerbase in the sake of balancing things. And this change makes sense. Someone outfitted in heavy armor isn't supposed to be mobile and evading. They are supposed to be absorbing damage. Just makes sense. It will give a nice boost to the value of playing a medium armor NB. In theory this change should help a bit with the "op" or "meta" builds where players are just choosing all the "best" stuff with few drawbacks and consequences that should be there in the build decision process.

Are the armor skill line passives being reworked the same way? To run off 5 pieces of same weight armor? Because the passives of heavy armor are pretty strong. Forcing the change on the passives will further make players make more serious build decisions, and I'd bet we'd see some less troll tanks in PvP. Not to mention further specify and define roles for trial groups and group dungeons.

There are exciting possibilities with this proposed change.

Keeping it short
-NB is currently the only class that can make MA work
-Restricting shuffle won't buff other MA users, it will be just as bad as it is now
-double nerfing HA is way over the top
-HA passives are fine, some sets are not
-troll tanks use permablock, HA has no block passives (only constitution contributes to it), problem is block cost calculation

Further specify define roles for trial groups? What? Didn't know HA DDs where overperforming in vet trials or anything. And even if some pve DD would gimp himself with HA, they wouldn't make good use of shuffle. The only thing this changes for PvE is that Tava tanks are now officially dead.

Its great change pvp-wise. PvE-wise people ignoring such strong set as Gossamer, hopefully now they can try to adotp it into rotations.

Can you please specify how a MA stamDK will be any more viable after this than it is now?

Taking away things from others is not always the same as buffing yourself.

Again, as others have said, HA is not supposed to be mobile. Ever. You trade off mobility and damage ( supposed to trade off damage at least ) for survivability and healing when using heavy. This is how it should have been.

LMar

Perhaps they could at least leave Armour Master 5 piece users to still slot any armour skill. After all it is Armour MASTER. This way people could still use Armour Master and Tava's Favour in PvE while restricting it a bit in PvP. Both camps happy and Masters of Armour can still be Masters of Armour!

Chilly-McFreeze

laced wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Personally there is a point where the dev must force players to make choices in order to spread things out naturally amongst the playerbase in the sake of balancing things. And this change makes sense. Someone outfitted in heavy armor isn't supposed to be mobile and evading. They are supposed to be absorbing damage. Just makes sense. It will give a nice boost to the value of playing a medium armor NB. In theory this change should help a bit with the "op" or "meta" builds where players are just choosing all the "best" stuff with few drawbacks and consequences that should be there in the build decision process.

Are the armor skill line passives being reworked the same way? To run off 5 pieces of same weight armor? Because the passives of heavy armor are pretty strong. Forcing the change on the passives will further make players make more serious build decisions, and I'd bet we'd see some less troll tanks in PvP. Not to mention further specify and define roles for trial groups and group dungeons.

There are exciting possibilities with this proposed change.

Keeping it short
-NB is currently the only class that can make MA work
-Restricting shuffle won't buff other MA users, it will be just as bad as it is now
-double nerfing HA is way over the top
-HA passives are fine, some sets are not
-troll tanks use permablock, HA has no block passives (only constitution contributes to it), problem is block cost calculation

Further specify define roles for trial groups? What? Didn't know HA DDs where overperforming in vet trials or anything. And even if some pve DD would gimp himself with HA, they wouldn't make good use of shuffle. The only thing this changes for PvE is that Tava tanks are now officially dead.

Its great change pvp-wise. PvE-wise people ignoring such strong set as Gossamer, hopefully now they can try to adotp it into rotations.

Can you please specify how a MA stamDK will be any more viable after this than it is now?

Taking away things from others is not always the same as buffing yourself.

Again, as others have said, HA is not supposed to be mobile. Ever. You trade off mobility and damage ( supposed to trade off damage at least ) for survivability and healing when using heavy. This is how it should have been.

@laced
I see that it is a nerf to heavy, I know. And yes, this brings heavy armor performance down a bit, but the difference in dmg through sets, mitigation, healing etc. is still there. Also it changes nothing about medium armor's main defence (dodge roll) being gutted every patch (more undodgebles).

So how will it help medium armor builds to perform better, compared to how they do on live, once this change hits?

Jade1986

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Personally there is a point where the dev must force players to make choices in order to spread things out naturally amongst the playerbase in the sake of balancing things. And this change makes sense. Someone outfitted in heavy armor isn't supposed to be mobile and evading. They are supposed to be absorbing damage. Just makes sense. It will give a nice boost to the value of playing a medium armor NB. In theory this change should help a bit with the "op" or "meta" builds where players are just choosing all the "best" stuff with few drawbacks and consequences that should be there in the build decision process.

Are the armor skill line passives being reworked the same way? To run off 5 pieces of same weight armor? Because the passives of heavy armor are pretty strong. Forcing the change on the passives will further make players make more serious build decisions, and I'd bet we'd see some less troll tanks in PvP. Not to mention further specify and define roles for trial groups and group dungeons.

There are exciting possibilities with this proposed change.

Keeping it short
-NB is currently the only class that can make MA work
-Restricting shuffle won't buff other MA users, it will be just as bad as it is now
-double nerfing HA is way over the top
-HA passives are fine, some sets are not
-troll tanks use permablock, HA has no block passives (only constitution contributes to it), problem is block cost calculation

Further specify define roles for trial groups? What? Didn't know HA DDs where overperforming in vet trials or anything. And even if some pve DD would gimp himself with HA, they wouldn't make good use of shuffle. The only thing this changes for PvE is that Tava tanks are now officially dead.

Its great change pvp-wise. PvE-wise people ignoring such strong set as Gossamer, hopefully now they can try to adotp it into rotations.

Can you please specify how a MA stamDK will be any more viable after this than it is now?

Taking away things from others is not always the same as buffing yourself.

Again, as others have said, HA is not supposed to be mobile. Ever. You trade off mobility and damage ( supposed to trade off damage at least ) for survivability and healing when using heavy. This is how it should have been.

@laced
I see that it is a nerf to heavy, I know. And yes, this brings heavy armor performance down a bit, but the difference in dmg through sets, mitigation, healing etc. is still there. Also it changes nothing about medium armor's main defence (dodge roll) being gutted every patch (more undodgebles).

So how will it help medium armor builds to perform better, compared to how they do on live, once this change hits?

It wont, but it will bring down HA a bit. I have always advocated heavy to be a tank oriented armor, and was very against the changes they made to have it be a dps hybrid armor. Medium still needs some major help, a built in dodge chance would be good

Jade1986

LMar wrote: »

Perhaps they could at least leave Armour Master 5 piece users to still slot any armour skill. After all it is Armour MASTER. This way people could still use Armour Master and Tava's Favour in PvE while restricting it a bit in PvP. Both camps happy and Masters of Armour can still be Masters of Armour!

No. That would still create builds in pvp that were far too tanky and bursty. You should have to weigh the pros and cons of all armor. Atm heavy has all pros and pretty much no cons.

olsborg

From a pvp-perspective this is much needed, heavy armor builds having major evasion and high mitigation was just too darn strong.

Chilly-McFreeze

laced wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Personally there is a point where the dev must force players to make choices in order to spread things out naturally amongst the playerbase in the sake of balancing things. And this change makes sense. Someone outfitted in heavy armor isn't supposed to be mobile and evading. They are supposed to be absorbing damage. Just makes sense. It will give a nice boost to the value of playing a medium armor NB. In theory this change should help a bit with the "op" or "meta" builds where players are just choosing all the "best" stuff with few drawbacks and consequences that should be there in the build decision process.

Are the armor skill line passives being reworked the same way? To run off 5 pieces of same weight armor? Because the passives of heavy armor are pretty strong. Forcing the change on the passives will further make players make more serious build decisions, and I'd bet we'd see some less troll tanks in PvP. Not to mention further specify and define roles for trial groups and group dungeons.

There are exciting possibilities with this proposed change.

Keeping it short
-NB is currently the only class that can make MA work
-Restricting shuffle won't buff other MA users, it will be just as bad as it is now
-double nerfing HA is way over the top
-HA passives are fine, some sets are not
-troll tanks use permablock, HA has no block passives (only constitution contributes to it), problem is block cost calculation

Further specify define roles for trial groups? What? Didn't know HA DDs where overperforming in vet trials or anything. And even if some pve DD would gimp himself with HA, they wouldn't make good use of shuffle. The only thing this changes for PvE is that Tava tanks are now officially dead.

Its great change pvp-wise. PvE-wise people ignoring such strong set as Gossamer, hopefully now they can try to adotp it into rotations.

Can you please specify how a MA stamDK will be any more viable after this than it is now?

Taking away things from others is not always the same as buffing yourself.

Again, as others have said, HA is not supposed to be mobile. Ever. You trade off mobility and damage ( supposed to trade off damage at least ) for survivability and healing when using heavy. This is how it should have been.

@laced
I see that it is a nerf to heavy, I know. And yes, this brings heavy armor performance down a bit, but the difference in dmg through sets, mitigation, healing etc. is still there. Also it changes nothing about medium armor's main defence (dodge roll) being gutted every patch (more undodgebles).

So how will it help medium armor builds to perform better, compared to how they do on live, once this change hits?

It wont, but it will bring down HA a bit. I have always advocated heavy to be a tank oriented armor, and was very against the changes they made to have it be a dps hybrid armor. Medium still needs some major help, a built in dodge chance would be good

Exactly, ma still underperforms. But i don't believe another evasion is needed. Shuffle already grants that and many skills can't be dodged anyway.
I think a buff to dodge would be great. E.g. a mitigation/ resistance buff while performing the roll and a short window of increased healing recieved afterwards. Also a buff to the athletics passive, like half or a third of that sprint speed bonus to movement speed in general to further specify the difference between mobile medium and tanky heavy.

Jade1986

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Personally there is a point where the dev must force players to make choices in order to spread things out naturally amongst the playerbase in the sake of balancing things. And this change makes sense. Someone outfitted in heavy armor isn't supposed to be mobile and evading. They are supposed to be absorbing damage. Just makes sense. It will give a nice boost to the value of playing a medium armor NB. In theory this change should help a bit with the "op" or "meta" builds where players are just choosing all the "best" stuff with few drawbacks and consequences that should be there in the build decision process.

Are the armor skill line passives being reworked the same way? To run off 5 pieces of same weight armor? Because the passives of heavy armor are pretty strong. Forcing the change on the passives will further make players make more serious build decisions, and I'd bet we'd see some less troll tanks in PvP. Not to mention further specify and define roles for trial groups and group dungeons.

There are exciting possibilities with this proposed change.

Keeping it short
-NB is currently the only class that can make MA work
-Restricting shuffle won't buff other MA users, it will be just as bad as it is now
-double nerfing HA is way over the top
-HA passives are fine, some sets are not
-troll tanks use permablock, HA has no block passives (only constitution contributes to it), problem is block cost calculation

Further specify define roles for trial groups? What? Didn't know HA DDs where overperforming in vet trials or anything. And even if some pve DD would gimp himself with HA, they wouldn't make good use of shuffle. The only thing this changes for PvE is that Tava tanks are now officially dead.

Its great change pvp-wise. PvE-wise people ignoring such strong set as Gossamer, hopefully now they can try to adotp it into rotations.

Can you please specify how a MA stamDK will be any more viable after this than it is now?

Taking away things from others is not always the same as buffing yourself.

Again, as others have said, HA is not supposed to be mobile. Ever. You trade off mobility and damage ( supposed to trade off damage at least ) for survivability and healing when using heavy. This is how it should have been.

@laced
I see that it is a nerf to heavy, I know. And yes, this brings heavy armor performance down a bit, but the difference in dmg through sets, mitigation, healing etc. is still there. Also it changes nothing about medium armor's main defence (dodge roll) being gutted every patch (more undodgebles).

So how will it help medium armor builds to perform better, compared to how they do on live, once this change hits?

It wont, but it will bring down HA a bit. I have always advocated heavy to be a tank oriented armor, and was very against the changes they made to have it be a dps hybrid armor. Medium still needs some major help, a built in dodge chance would be good

Exactly, ma still underperforms. But i don't believe another evasion is needed. Shuffle already grants that and many skills can't be dodged anyway.
I think a buff to dodge would be great. E.g. a mitigation/ resistance buff while performing the roll and a short window of increased healing recieved afterwards. Also a buff to the athletics passive, like half or a third of that sprint speed bonus to movement speed in general to further specify the difference between mobile medium and tanky heavy.

Agreed 100% Us MA users need something.

Lord_Eomer

Kammakazi wrote: »

All I'm thinking about is my tank, and how it no longer will be able to use Elude (more duration).

Elude was my go-to ability when tanking vAA HM (Axes) & vHRC HM (The Warrior) and this change is really huge.

Please re-think this, in a PvE perspective!

This change will stop heavy armor or magicka build from using elude.

Indeed useful for pvp!

AverageJo3Gam3r

Add tavas favor to the scrap heap with all the other crappy crafted sets. BS+ADG+tavas was my favorite tanking setup. Rip the dream.

CatchMeTrolling

About a year ago most of the pvp community was suggesting this, so I don’t see why now it would be an issue. It’s a step in the right direction even if it’s late.

Derra

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

About a year ago most of the pvp community was suggesting this, so I don’t see why now it would be an issue. It’s a step in the right direction even if it’s late.

We were playing a pretty different game about one year ago though...

Which is why people might see issues in this now.

CatchMeTrolling

Derra wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

About a year ago most of the pvp community was suggesting this, so I don’t see why now it would be an issue. It’s a step in the right direction even if it’s late.

We were playing a pretty different game about one year ago though...

Which is why people might see issues in this now.

In terms of armor not much has changed, pretty much wearing the same armor & using the same skills for the same reasons.

code65536

Kammakazi wrote: »

All I'm thinking about is my tank, and how it no longer will be able to use Elude (more duration).

Elude was my go-to ability when tanking vAA HM (Axes) & vHRC HM (The Warrior) and this change is really huge.

Please re-think this, in a PvE perspective!

I don't use that ability when tanking either vAA HM or vHRC HM.

C0ndor

It’s a nerf to stam HA user, not to HA user. Unkillable tanks are mostly magika focused templar and dk and they use mist form to remove snare and immobilization. Don’t sell this as a HA nerf plz, is a stamina HA nerf. Magika heavy armor are untouched and almost unkillable tanks are still there. Don’t say medium is more appetible now, medium is still s***. All classes has hard counters to dodge roll, especially magika focused. Stam classes except for nb are forced to heavy cause are melted from magika burst. Most medium build are in huge disadvantage against any decent mag player, at least on pc eu. Give something decent to medium armor plz.

Narvuntien

Sounds like a big buff to medium armor to me...