Magicka DK Needs Buff in PvE

nalimoleb14_ESO

I have been playing a Dragon Knight since launch, my favorite class. I've played through the DK meta phase, the DK nerf phase, the second DK nerf phase, the third, the fourth - you get where I'm going with this. I'm at a point where I don't understand why anyone would choose to play a Magicka DK over a Magicka Sorcerer in PvE. DKs have no burst damage, the buff to burning in the most recent patch adds a pitiable 1K DPS at most, and it's getting to a point where I'm constantly asked if I have a Sorc alt to bring to trials and dungeons when I join groups.

I've played Stamina DK, but I enjoyed Magicka DK too much to make the switch long-term. The meta has been Stamina builds for a while, and I refuse to follow the meta anymore. Magicka builds suffered greatly from the removal of the Magicka regen skill in the Champion points tree, nerfing proc sets from critting, among countless other nerfs, which leaves Mag DK with two options: 1) do mediocre dps compared to sorcs with terrible resource sustainability, or 2) do terrible dps compared to sorcs with mediocre resource sustainability.

If ZOS' claim is to want to bring balance to the classes, then for the love of all that is holy give us a reason to want to play Magicka DK in PvE. While in a dungeon I actually had someone say that I was the first magicka DK they had ever seen in game; he had only ever seen Stamina DK DPS or Tanks. This is not good. ZOS wants to destroy meta builds but then enforces nerfs that drive people to have no other choice but abandon their favorite classes and sets in order to do decent damage.

ZOS please bare in mind that while there are the top tier of min/max players who will find ways to achieve insane DPS because they're great at that, a very large percentage of your player base are not achieving insane DPS, even with maxed-out legendary gear, because they want to enjoy the game but not at the sacrifice of staying competitive. Think about the rest of your playerbase when you make these nerfs just to hurt the min/maxers. People should not be throwing away characters they worked hard to level up and grind gear for because they can't achieve close-to-decent DPS anymore due to nerfs.

Anyway, I digress. Please revisit Magicka DK, because right now compared to Sorcs there just aren't any reasons to play them in PvE. Either buff damage, or buff resource management, but either way something has to change.

GreenhaloX

Alas..! A need to buff thread, amidst all the crappy crying out for nerfing threads. Hallelujah, amen and all that. Yes, and every other toons as well for PvE. Buff all things back! Separate nerfing for PvP only. There is no balance when nerfing toons and abilities for PvE when toons are shriveled down and bosses and even adds are packing more heat each time.

derpmander

MagDK and MagPlar are a joke right now. ZOS needs to give those two classes buffs to their dps that will not affect their PvP status as it stands otherwise they become overtuned for PvP.

casparian

There are three issues here, as I see it:

1. MagDK specifically has trouble pulling DPS comparable to other classes without running into ineliminable sustain problems. ZOS has repeatedly shown that they acknowledge this issue exists, having put DK through multiple rounds of cost reductions in U15. But the issue remains, and is exacerbated by the fact that stamina builds are now so desirable in trials. The presence of so many stamina builds means more frequent heavy attacks, and more frequent heavy attacks means increased consumption of Off-Balance, and increased consumption of Off-Balance means it's a group DPS loss to use Power Lash. Not using Power Lash is a major hit to magDK sustain.

2. Melee magicka builds in general don't do comparable DPS to melee stamina builds. Given the limited number of melee spots available in most trials, there is in general no reason to fill a valuable melee spot with a magicka build. (Important caveat: stamina DPS is in a very good place now, and should not be nerfed. Magicka DPS needs some attention, especially melee magicka DPS. Melee magicka skills shouldn't just be for PVP and unoptimized groups.)

3. MagDK's main group utility skill, Engulfing Flames, can simply be run by a tank.

Apherius

Please also revisit Sorc tank, because right now compared to DK there just aren't any reasons to play them in PVE. Either make some useless morph useful for tank, or make pet able to tank well in trials , but either way something has to change
( at least the difference between Mag sorc and mag dk dps is not so big ... while a sorc tank is just garbage compared to dk tank.)

the DK is not literally "dead " like the sorc tank ( yeah i've played sorc tank before ,until they make pet unable to tank in raid, and increase the cast time of dark deal ...) but currently the DK tank is the better tank and also the better stamina Dps ... in #1 leaderboard there is 5/6 DK .. in Vso ... Vhof ... everything, and buff Mag dk will just make this class the " the ultimate polyvalent class " . So i think they should make sorc/nb/dk heal | nb/sorc/templar tank useful in a first step , then work on the " dps " . there is some useless passif that they could make useful ... a lot of useless morph ( humhum crystal blast.. cinder storm ) that they could make usefull for tanking/healing , but personnaly i think a new " class line " or more morph for skill could fix this faster.

beetleklee

Yes please! My main is my MagDK. Sustain is awful and I do less DPS than my MagSorc who I haven't worked on/played nearly as much. I love MagDK though, it's a lot more fun, and I'd rather play him.

I really would love a buff.I hate relying on off balance to be useful. The skills cost way too much. Even using food with regen, I'm gasping for magicka. More ranged options would be nice but I won't count on it. Though I'd love for whip to reach further. But it needs to be worth it to stay in melee range.

I'll be happy though if we get a sustain buff and do something about the reliance on off balance.

Savos_Saren

Apherius wrote: »

Please also revisit Sorc tank, because right now compared to DK there just aren't any reasons to play them in PVE. Either make some useless morph useful for tank, or make pet able to tank well in trials , but either way something has to change
( at least the difference between Mag sorc and mag dk dps is not so big ... while a sorc tank is just garbage compared to dk tank.)

the DK is not literally "dead " like the sorc tank ( yeah i've played sorc tank before ,until they make pet unable to tank in raid, and increase the cast time of dark deal ...) but currently the DK tank is the better tank and also the better stamina Dps ... in #1 leaderboard there is 5/6 DK .. in Vso ... Vhof ... everything, and buff Mag dk will just make this class the " the ultimate polyvalent class " . So i think they should make sorc/nb/dk heal | nb/sorc/templar tank useful in a first step , then work on the " dps " . there is some useless passif that they could make useful ... a lot of useless morph ( humhum crystal blast.. cinder storm ) that they could make usefull for tanking/healing , but personnaly i think a new " class line " or more morph for skill could fix this faster.

@Apherius

I see that you're continuing your anti-DK sentiment from this post: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4454693#Comment_4454693

As I said before- you could create your own post about buffing sorc tanks instead of trolling mDK DPS buff posts.

Demolitionary

Apherius wrote: »

Please also revisit Sorc tank, because right now compared to DK there just aren't any reasons to play them in PVE. Either make some useless morph useful for tank, or make pet able to tank well in trials , but either way something has to change
( at least the difference between Mag sorc and mag dk dps is not so big ... while a sorc tank is just garbage compared to dk tank.)

the DK is not literally "dead " like the sorc tank ( yeah i've played sorc tank before ,until they make pet unable to tank in raid, and increase the cast time of dark deal ...) but currently the DK tank is the better tank and also the better stamina Dps ... in #1 leaderboard there is 5/6 DK .. in Vso ... Vhof ... everything, and buff Mag dk will just make this class the " the ultimate polyvalent class " . So i think they should make sorc/nb/dk heal | nb/sorc/templar tank useful in a first step , then work on the " dps " . there is some useless passif that they could make useful ... a lot of useless morph ( humhum crystal blast.. cinder storm ) that they could make usefull for tanking/healing , but personnaly i think a new " class line " or more morph for skill could fix this faster.

I kind of agree, although disagree with a point or two.

Most if not all the classes can be viable tanks, you just need to work harder as one compared to DK for example.
DK is the easier option for a tank due to the damage mitigation, just like Sorc is easier to DPS for example, there is little one can do wrong with both of those classes. Unless naive to how the skills work or what skills they actually have, seen that more than twice.

Anyone can be a healer with a restro staff, just not as effective as classes with class heals and passives.

Anyone can break the current Meta and try to be what they want, it just requires more work, more thinking (Heh), more skill and understanding of the class and its abilities.
Yeah some classes can't tank end game, but there is one or two others that can tank end game, very well in the right hands to be exact, just more difficult than just holding block permanently

But Meta is annoying, It would be cool to see a mix but all I see at the moment is DK's and Sorcs near undaunted chests. Either a little electric man speeding about and teleporting or the clumsy DK with spiked armor plodding along.

Kilandros

People have been asking for mDK buffs for two years. Though mDK has occasionally received small buffs, they also keep getting nerfed for some reason. I finally gave up after one of the Devs unceremoniously remarked during an ESO Live that "Not all classes have to be equal" and after Gina infamously posted that DK's are supposed to be tanks.

Inarre

I had a dark elf mag dk. Turned her into an imperial tank. Thats how *** the dps was lol.
The classes in general need tuning to make them equally viable for all roles.

Kilandros wrote: »

People have been asking for mDK buffs for two years. Though mDK has occasionally received small buffs, they also keep getting nerfed for some reason. I finally gave up after one of the Devs unceremoniously remarked during an ESO Live that "Not all classes have to be equal" and after Gina infamously posted that DK's are supposed to be tanks.

If dks are supposed to be tanks why do they keep *** ing nerfing templar heals. Were they supposed to be dps??!?

derpmander

Inarre wrote: »

I had a dark elf mag dk. Turned her into an imperial tank. Thats how *** the dps was lol.
The classes in general need tuning to make them equally viable for all roles.

Kilandros wrote: »

People have been asking for mDK buffs for two years. Though mDK has occasionally received small buffs, they also keep getting nerfed for some reason. I finally gave up after one of the Devs unceremoniously remarked during an ESO Live that "Not all classes have to be equal" and after Gina infamously posted that DK's are supposed to be tanks.

If dks are supposed to be tanks why do they keep *** ing nerfing templar heals. Were they supposed to be dps??!?

To be fair they also nerfed templar dps into nonexistance lol. I think ZOS had to make templars shittier so they could sell the Warden class. Otherwise no one would wanna give wardens a go. I mean nobody does still but yeah, that was the idea i believe. Wreck templar so wardens look juicier.

kojou

My list of Magicka DK buffs I'd like to see:

- More resource return on Battle Roar. To me Battle Roar is what makes a DK a DK, but I don't think the amount we are getting right now is enough. With classes that have buffs to Regen and Max magicka you can stack them up, but Battle Roar does not stack with and is not buffed by anything, so it needs to be higher to provide the same resource sustain.

- Change the Burning Embers heal into a HoT. It can heal for exactly the same amount overall just make it tick every 2 seconds instead of being a burst at the end. (This will help a lot for Solo content like VMA IMO.) If it is not too much can you also make it 7 meters instead of 5?

- Change Eruption and Flames of Oblivion both to 20 second DoTs. They can still do the same amount of damage, but this way I can reduce the amount of times I have to go to my back bar and re-cast them.

This is probably OP and never going to happen but:

- Make Flames of Oblivion into an "Impulse" like 8 meter AoE fire burst instead of lobbing a fireball at one target.

Olupajmibanan

My magDK is pulling more single target dps than my stamsorc right now.

Trust or not, sustain is perfect with Flame Lash and Witchmothers Potent Brew. The Silks of the Sun set solves health drop caused by Withmothers, even better.

However, I agree that without Blockade of Storms present my sustain would be a lot worse.

Soleya

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

My list of Magicka DK buffs I'd like to see:

- More resource return on Battle Roar. To me Battle Roar is what makes a DK a DK, but I don't think the amount we are getting right now is enough. With classes that have buffs to Regen and Max magicka you can stack them up, but Battle Roar does not stack with and is not buffed by anything, so it needs to be higher to provide the same resource sustain.

- Change the Burning Embers heal into a HoT. It can heal for exactly the same amount overall just make it tick every 2 seconds instead of being a burst at the end. (This will help a lot for Solo content like VMA IMO.) If it is not too much can you also make it 7 meters instead of 5?

I agree on battle roar, not sure why they nerfed it with Morrowind, MagDK already had sustain problems before.

You do realize if you recast burning embers on a mob you already hit with it, you get the heal right? I found that useful in VMA could I could heal on demand.

beetleklee

I like the burst heal on Embers, saved my butt so many times.

nalimoleb14_ESO

These are all great points.

Kilandros wrote: »

I finally gave up after one of the Devs unceremoniously remarked during an ESO Live that "Not all classes have to be equal".

That's very insightful, I actually never knew about that. @ZOS_GinaBruno Please shed some light on whether the current status of Magicka DKs is what the developers had in mind long-term for the class? That DKs should be tanks, Sorcs should be Magicka DPS, Templars should be healers and Nightblades should be Stamina DPS? Only incoming changes may be more nerfs? Your playerbase deserves to know so that we can stop wasting our time hoping for changes.

I honestly feel like making certain classes ideal for certain roles by making them utterly useless for all other roles is worse than any skill, mundus stone, trait imbalance ZOS could ever hope to fix. It's like those antiquated games that forces gender-locked classes. If all classes don't have to be equal then why did they even bother to try and balance the classes in the first place?

WaltherCarraway

mDK in current state is still OK

Please no more nerf.

rustic_potato

Yes please buff mDK. Just getting 50k dps on boss fights is kinda boring when I should be hitting 60k just because I want to.

Nemesis7884

honestly i think what dk needs is more sustain...even the dk specific sets don't really help with sustain...

rustic_potato

nalimoleb14_ESO wrote: »

These are all great points.

Kilandros wrote: »

I finally gave up after one of the Devs unceremoniously remarked during an ESO Live that "Not all classes have to be equal".

That's very insightful, I actually never knew about that. @ZOS_GinaBruno Please shed some light on whether the current status of Magicka DKs is what the developers had in mind long-term for the class? That DKs should be tanks, Sorcs should be Magicka DPS, Templars should be healers and Nightblades should be Stamina DPS? Only incoming changes may be more nerfs? Your playerbase deserves to know so that we can stop wasting our time hoping for changes.

I honestly feel like making certain classes ideal for certain roles by making them utterly useless for all other roles is worse than any skill, mundus stone, trait imbalance ZOS could ever hope to fix. It's like those antiquated games that forces gender-locked classes. If all classes don't have to be equal then why did they even bother to try and balance the classes in the first place?

All classes are viable in all roles for regular content. For true end game PVE content the roles are pretty much locked. ZOS balance exist only for PVP. Which is not a bad idea.

As far as PVE is concerned only people who complain are some special snowflakes who refuse to roll into the optimal races/classes for their roles.

Onefrkncrzypope

Both my chainers in the vMoL prog group I run have no issues with sustain. The both pull in current patch 35k. Both are new to mDKs. I recommend working on rotation, having crafted pots, and always have ele drain present. There is a spot on your bar. I mained a sDK went to a sorc and just leveled a mDK and it isn't bad. Its hard but mDK has the sustain. The damage though...all melee should always have better dps(but not by more than 12k though). Easy way to buff mDK PvE without damaging PvP? Buff Eruption, No use in pvp and is a must on a mDK dps.

Sordidfairytale

Soleya wrote: »

You do realize if you recast burning embers on a mob you already hit with it, you get the heal right? I found that useful in VMA could I could heal on demand.

I too use this like this, however when I realized it's only 75% of the inflicted damage as a heal I got into the habit of letting it cook a moment before recasting, if I can of course.

Personally I think MDK's take a lot of foreplay, but I like seeing 69k HA crits and feeling like the odd class. I don't like cookie cutter builds.

kojou

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

Soleya wrote: »

You do realize if you recast burning embers on a mob you already hit with it, you get the heal right? I found that useful in VMA could I could heal on demand.

I too use this like this, however when I realized it's only 75% of the inflicted damage as a heal I got into the habit of letting it cook a moment before recasting, if I can of course.

Personally I think MDK's take a lot of foreplay, but I like seeing 69k HA crits and feeling like the odd class. I don't like cookie cutter builds.

There in lies the problem... not only that you have to burn a cool down to get the partial heal. A HoT would be better.

I like the class overall as well, it just became a lot less fun after Morrowind.

nalimoleb14_ESO

rustic_potato wrote: »

Yes please buff mDK. Just getting 50k dps on boss fights is kinda boring when I should be hitting 60k just because I want to.

Not pulling even close to 50K DPS on boss fights, and by the look of this thread a lot of other players who use Magicka DKs aren't either, but thanks for contributing absolutely nothing to the conversation.

nalimoleb14_ESO

rustic_potato wrote: »

All classes are viable in all roles for regular content. For true end game PVE content the roles are pretty much locked. ZOS balance exist only for PVP. Which is not a bad idea.

As far as PVE is concerned only people who complain are some special snowflakes who refuse to roll into the optimal races/classes for their roles.

Yes, we're talking about end-game PvE, which at this point should be pretty clear, what with the mention of dungeons and trials. Second of all, you shouldn't have to re-roll your character or roll and alt just to be competitive if end-game PvE.

You should be able to play the class you want to or like best, not the class with the most meta builds. If that makes me a "special snowflake" (lol) then this game must be very depressing for you.

Getting the highest DPS is not the issue. It's getting high enough DPS to get through the most difficult vet dungeons to trial without being a DPS loss to your team is the issue. Any assumption that the complaints in this thread are being made by min/markers shows you're not reading clearly enough and therefore never meant to offer any useful insights.

MLGProPlayer

derpmander wrote: »

MagDK and MagPlar are a joke right now. ZOS needs to give those two classes buffs to their dps that will not affect their PvP status as it stands otherwise they become overtuned for PvP.

Have you played magicka warden? They parse like 5-6k behind magDK and magplar...

MLGProPlayer

derpmander wrote: »

Inarre wrote: »

I had a dark elf mag dk. Turned her into an imperial tank. Thats how *** the dps was lol.
The classes in general need tuning to make them equally viable for all roles.

Kilandros wrote: »

People have been asking for mDK buffs for two years. Though mDK has occasionally received small buffs, they also keep getting nerfed for some reason. I finally gave up after one of the Devs unceremoniously remarked during an ESO Live that "Not all classes have to be equal" and after Gina infamously posted that DK's are supposed to be tanks.

If dks are supposed to be tanks why do they keep *** ing nerfing templar heals. Were they supposed to be dps??!?

To be fair they also nerfed templar dps into nonexistance lol. I think ZOS had to make templars shittier so they could sell the Warden class. Otherwise no one would wanna give wardens a go. I mean nobody does still but yeah, that was the idea i believe. Wreck templar so wardens look juicier.

And yet templar is still a better healer than warden, and a MUCH better DPS.

Magicka warden is the worst DPS class in the entire game. And they aren't the best healer or tank.

O_LYKOS

Bout time they made some buffs in the game to all classes without considering PVP. The amount of crap they change because of pvp is insane.

SydneyGrey

I main a MagDK as a DPS (not tank), and my level 38 Altmer Sorceror definitely does better damage. I need to finish leveling him up to take him into dungeons. I agree that MagDKs need some love. I was sick when they destroyed the magicka sustain tree in Champion Points. Wow, that so did NOT do MagDKs any favors, since their spell costs are so high.

Olupajmibanan

I don't have sustain issues at all since switching from Molten Whip to Flame Lash. This alone is a huge step.

Which else class has a free spammable?

Zedrian

nalimoleb14_ESO wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

Yes please buff mDK. Just getting 50k dps on boss fights is kinda boring when I should be hitting 60k just because I want to.

Not pulling even close to 50K DPS on boss fights, and by the look of this thread a lot of other players who use Magicka DKs aren't either, but thanks for contributing absolutely nothing to the conversation.

Hello our trials guild did some testing when HotR was released.

Our guildmate mDK this patch is pulling between 3-5k more than other Magicka classes. 42k solo, 48-49k on the 26m without all the buffs and penetration caps, second best were sorcerers with 40-47k in group buffs, then Nightblade 40-45k. Our templar did 36k but admitted to have missed his parse and had to go. We didn't compare Stam classes in the mix. We spent about 3-4 hours on the 26 and 51 millions skeletons doing these tests with fully optimized characters.

We were stunned how high and how consistent the DPS of mDK was, and surely this is due to the free spammable whip that hits like a truck. The DK has pretty much all fire damages so can fully benefit from the Sun and BSW sets. The mDK is in a great spot right now, and I would say we should buff the other classes instead