Resource Guards once again

MADshadowman_

Yo @ZOS_BrianWheeler , did you mess up the guards again?

Remember when you had to admit that you accidentally buffed the guards and gave them abilities they shouldn't have? Did that happen again?

Cause here's a list of things that happen all the time when i solo take a resource:

• Instant heals to full health
• Chain stuns through block
• Instant stuns as soon as possible
• 24/7 eclipse bubble uptime if not purged
• if purged, it's immediately recast

Can we please get rid of this buggy mess already?

Thank you.

Vapirko

Yep, full heals and way too much cc.

WaltherCarraway

I can solo resource without a problem while playing magDK.

Seems like you need to relearn your class.

EDIT: don't say stuff like permablock or super tanky. I solo them under 2 minutes.

disintegr8

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

I can solo resource without a problem while playing magDK.

Seems like you need to relearn your class.

EDIT: don't say stuff like permablock or super tanky. I solo them under 2 minutes.

Ooohh you must be good.......I can solo resources too - at level 1 or 2, if I approach it properly.

There is a difference between level 1 and level 5 resources. Haven't tried in a few weeks and only getting the HotR patch now but I'd Like to see anyone solo a level 5 keep with the stupid OP guards and NPC's if they have brought the bugs back.

We had groups of 3 and 4 being wiped at level 4 and 5 resources while this was going on last time. Worst part was the stupid heals - get a guard down to 5-10% health, suddenly get cc'd or bubbled, and before you can break free the guard is up to full health again.

WaltherCarraway

disintegr8 wrote: »

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

I can solo resource without a problem while playing magDK.

Seems like you need to relearn your class.

EDIT: don't say stuff like permablock or super tanky. I solo them under 2 minutes.

Ooohh you must be good.......I can solo resources too - at level 1 or 2, if I approach it properly.

There is a difference between level 1 and level 5 resources. Haven't tried in a few weeks and only getting the HotR patch now but I'd Like to see anyone solo a level 5 keep with the stupid OP guards and NPC's if they have brought the bugs back.

We had groups of 3 and 4 being wiped at level 4 and 5 resources while this was going on last time. Worst part was the stupid heals - get a guard down to 5-10% health, suddenly get cc'd or bubbled, and before you can break free the guard is up to full health again.

That's your problem then, lol

MADshadowman_

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

I can solo resource without a problem while playing magDK.

Seems like you need to relearn your class.

EDIT: don't say stuff like permablock or super tanky. I solo them under 2 minutes.

i've been soloing resources for 3.5 years now. i don't think there is anything new to learn for me.

i don't have a problem taking them, we're talking about the broken behavior of the NPCs, which are ignoring core game mechanics, and we had this before and @ZOS_BrianWheeler admited that this kind of behavior was not intented and he fixed it. But now it feels like some of these broken mechanics are back in the game and i'd like to see them removed.

leepalmer95

Its not the fact if its soloable or not its the fact the npc's are broke.

Npc bubble reflects dawnbreakers, whips, trap beast etc..

Full hp heals are annoying.

Drummerx04

MADshadowman_ wrote: »

Yo @ZOS_BrianWheeler , did you mess up the guards again?

Remember when you had to admit that you accidentally buffed the guards and gave them abilities they shouldn't have? Did that happen again?

Cause here's a list of things that happen all the time when i solo take a resource:

1. Instant heals to full health
2. Chain stuns through block
3. Instant stuns as soon as possible
4. 24/7 eclipse bubble uptime if not purged
5. if purged, it's immediately recast

Can we please get rid of this buggy mess already?

Thank you.

I guess I'll touch on each point in turn.

1. This one is a little annoying, but timed CC can prevent it. It also only happens with honor guards and then only every minute or so... and if it takes that long you have other problems.
2. The guards cast an interruptible disorient spell. This is like fossilize, agony, and defensive rune. Taking health damage releases the CC.
3. CC immunity. It does work... usually.
4. CC immunity actually prevents new eclipse bubbles from being cast on you. When the guard disorients you, break free and enjoy free casting for 7 seconds.
5. See 4.

If anything it may be nice if guards were a little tougher. Atm they are mostly a passing inconvenience to a decent player or group. They are really only a threat if you are actively fighting a tough player. A resource or keep may as well be empty if there are no players defending.

leepalmer95

Drummerx04 wrote: »

MADshadowman_ wrote: »

Yo @ZOS_BrianWheeler , did you mess up the guards again?

Remember when you had to admit that you accidentally buffed the guards and gave them abilities they shouldn't have? Did that happen again?

Cause here's a list of things that happen all the time when i solo take a resource:

1. Instant heals to full health
2. Chain stuns through block
3. Instant stuns as soon as possible
4. 24/7 eclipse bubble uptime if not purged
5. if purged, it's immediately recast

Can we please get rid of this buggy mess already?

Thank you.

I guess I'll touch on each point in turn.

1. This one is a little annoying, but timed CC can prevent it. It also only happens with honor guards and then only every minute or so... and if it takes that long you have other problems.
2. The guards cast an interruptible disorient spell. This is like fossilize, agony, and defensive rune. Taking health damage releases the CC.
3. CC immunity. It does work... usually.
4. CC immunity actually prevents new eclipse bubbles from being cast on you. When the guard disorients you, break free and enjoy free casting for 7 seconds.
5. See 4.

If anything it may be nice if guards were a little tougher. Atm they are mostly a passing inconvenience to a decent player or group. They are really only a threat if you are actively fighting a tough player. A resource or keep may as well be empty if there are no players defending.

The problem is the guards disorient usually break from other guards dmg quickly.

There has been a few times where i have been cc like 3 times in a row before i can break it.

Sharee

MADshadowman_ wrote: »

[*] Instant heals to full health
[*] Chain stuns through block
[*] Instant stuns as soon as possible
[*] 24/7 eclipse bubble uptime if not purged
[*] if purged, it's immediately recast

The instant heals are on a timer. Only the DK-ish guards have them. Been like this forever, i consider it a feature (not meant ironically). Its not too bad, the timer is fairly long.

They don't stun thru block, but they do spam you with disorient (the yellow-ish bubble, disorients do go through block). They also stun (shield bash) but only the mobile tank guards (but that one does not go through block). I actually like when they disorient me, because:

The eclipse bubbles are a PITA for a magicka character. They are unbreakable, and dont give immunity(so you can get chain-bubbled), but you can get immunity to them if you manage to break the disorient from above before it is removed.

There is one thing that is definitely broken with guards, and that is the lack of auto-CC immunity you are supposed to get when CC on you expires without you using CC-break.

As an additional tip, the eclipse bubble does not stop warden birds, and you can recover magicka with heavy attacks if you use resto staff(channels arent reflected).

MADshadowman_

Drummerx04 wrote: »

MADshadowman_ wrote: »

Yo @ZOS_BrianWheeler , did you mess up the guards again?

Remember when you had to admit that you accidentally buffed the guards and gave them abilities they shouldn't have? Did that happen again?

Cause here's a list of things that happen all the time when i solo take a resource:

1. Instant heals to full health
2. Chain stuns through block
3. Instant stuns as soon as possible
4. 24/7 eclipse bubble uptime if not purged
5. if purged, it's immediately recast

Can we please get rid of this buggy mess already?

Thank you.

I guess I'll touch on each point in turn.

1. This one is a little annoying, but timed CC can prevent it. It also only happens with honor guards and then only every minute or so... and if it takes that long you have other problems.
2. The guards cast an interruptible disorient spell. This is like fossilize, agony, and defensive rune. Taking health damage releases the CC.
3. CC immunity. It does work... usually.
4. CC immunity actually prevents new eclipse bubbles from being cast on you. When the guard disorients you, break free and enjoy free casting for 7 seconds.
5. See 4.

If anything it may be nice if guards were a little tougher. Atm they are mostly a passing inconvenience to a decent player or group. They are really only a threat if you are actively fighting a tough player. A resource or keep may as well be empty if there are no players defending.

you don't get the point. you don't have to tell me how to take a resource, i do this all day every day. i just want a consistent experience without bugs, glitches or broken mechanics. There is no excuse for NPCs that are ignoring game rules.

A full health heal is not acceptable. period.

I got cc'd through block by a shield bash. 3 times in a row. with cc immunity from breaking free.

CC immunity does work against eclipse bubbles, but why is it mandatory to have a couple seconds without a bubble on me? Making eclipse bubbles unbreakable was a stupid change no one asked for and created a lot of new problems. i have ways of purging the eclipse, but it immediately gets put on me again, and again, and again, til no npc is left that could cast another bubble. keeping a constant eclipse on a player is not acceptable, no matter what. And here's another funny story: sometimes when i don't remove the bubble, i can hear NPCs spam casting it on me over and over again. like once a second. Why would that be necessary? I mean... i didn't remove the old bubble, why is he casting a new one every second?

I want a decent NPC AI that doesn't rely on spamming buggy disabling effects on me as their only answer for everything.

MADshadowman_

They don't stun thru block, but they do spam you with disorient (the yellow-ish bubble, disorients do go through block). They also stun (shield bash) but only the mobile tank guards (but that one does not go through block). I actually like when they disorient me, because:

That's true. Normally.

But this in particular was the reason i made this thread, cause here is what happened yesterday:

I'm blocking with like 80%+ stam, a guard walks up to me and shield bashes me and i get stunned through block. Ok... that sucked, but i broke out and blocked again, then the 2nd one came and bashed me again, through block, with active cc immunity from breaking free, ok... broke that cc too, then i took another cc, while blocking, with cc immunity.

That's the stuff i'm talking about. This should not happen. It's this broken buggy mess that happens all the time and makes me not enjoy this game anymore.

Sharee

MADshadowman_ wrote: »

They don't stun thru block, but they do spam you with disorient (the yellow-ish bubble, disorients do go through block). They also stun (shield bash) but only the mobile tank guards (but that one does not go through block). I actually like when they disorient me, because:

That's true. Normally.

But this in particular was the reason i made this thread, cause here is what happened yesterday:

I'm blocking with like 80%+ stam, a guard walks up to me and shield bashes me and i get stunned through block.

What likely happened there is that one guard hit you with disorient just as another hit you with shield bash. The disorient CC-ed you, removing your block, and allowing the shield bash to apply its stun. If the 2 CCs get applied at the same time, visually you just see the bash+stun...

MADshadowman_ wrote: »

Ok... that sucked, but i broke out and blocked again, then the 2nd one came and bashed me again, through block, with active cc immunity from breaking free, ok... broke that cc too, then i took another cc, while blocking, with cc immunity.

That's just a plain bug then(or lag). From my experience, when you have CC immunity running, you are immune to anything they throw your way (except the damage, ofc)

Lucky28

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

I can solo resource without a problem while playing magDK.

Seems like you need to relearn your class.

EDIT: don't say stuff like permablock or super tanky. I solo them under 2 minutes.

everyone can solo resources, it's just more of a pain in the ass than it needs to be as a magicka build. i mean eclipse reflects even concealed weapon (which it should not) eclipse needs to be breakable again, it was a terrible idea.

NightbladeMechanics

I've not noticed any changes with guards between this patch and last patch. I do have two main issues with guards, though:

1) guards present vastly different levels of difficulty to magicka classes versus stam classes because eclipse doesn't reflect most stamina based attacks.

2) eclipse teaches bad habits because it cannot be broken free from (this goes for player eclipse too). When fighting guards, players are inclined not to block reverb, frag, and other ccs in order to break free and acquire cc immunity, during which they are immune to eclipse and can dps freely. These reflexes can get you killed against players. When you are eclipsed, most aoe abilities still work, inclining many players to use bar setups for taking resources which vastly differ from proper PvP bars. These will also get you killed should players arrive to fight you.

EdTerra

eclipse can be cleanse by mist form but it's really annoying when you have to spam it to be able to hit them, even concealed weapon and soul harvest are reflected... (yeah it's weird because it's melee, magicka but melee... reflected.... )

now when I see ressource, I just use bomb+sap+tether, then it's easy mod (if there is no one for defense ofc)

Alpheu5

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I've not noticed any changes with guards between this patch and last patch. I do have two main issues with guards, though:

1) guards present vastly different levels of difficulty to magicka classes versus stam classes because eclipse doesn't reflect most stamina based attacks.

2) eclipse teaches bad habits because it cannot be broken free from (this goes for player eclipse too). When fighting guards, players are inclined not to block reverb, frag, and other ccs in order to break free and acquire cc immunity, during which they are immune to eclipse and can dps freely. These reflexes can get you killed against players. When you are eclipsed, most aoe abilities still work, inclining many players to use bar setups for taking resources which vastly differ from proper PvP bars. These will also get you killed should players arrive to fight you.

I wouldn't call the intentional application of CC immunity a bad habit in all cases, as long as you have a retaliation immediately available when you do it. Sometimes I'll hardcast a frag while eclipsed just so I don't have to worry the situations where the eclipse is reapplied almost immediately before a reflectable ability is cast.

WaltherCarraway

Lucky28 wrote: »

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

I can solo resource without a problem while playing magDK.

Seems like you need to relearn your class.

EDIT: don't say stuff like permablock or super tanky. I solo them under 2 minutes.

everyone can solo resources, it's just more of a pain in the ass than it needs to be as a magicka build. i mean eclipse reflects even concealed weapon (which it should not) eclipse needs to be breakable again, it was a terrible idea.

Eclipse does not reflect AoE skills.

bikerangelo

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

I can solo resource without a problem while playing magDK.

Seems like you need to relearn your class.

EDIT: don't say stuff like permablock or super tanky. I solo them under 2 minutes.

everyone can solo resources, it's just more of a pain in the ass than it needs to be as a magicka build. i mean eclipse reflects even concealed weapon (which it should not) eclipse needs to be breakable again, it was a terrible idea.

Eclipse does not reflect AoE skills.

My toon getting knocked on their ass while using dawnbreaker would beg to disagree.

The eclipse that NPC's use is not the same as the Templar eclipse. The NPC eclipse has old code and functions differently, which "reflects" all the other skills used by NPC's being horrendously outdated and buggy. CC's that stun but break after you take damage still don't apply CC immunity. Stunlocks through block are still definitely a thing. It's not about how quickly you can solo a resource at this point, it's analyzing each of the skills and realizing that some of them are not functioning as intended.

Koolio

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

I can solo resource without a problem while playing magDK.

Seems like you need to relearn your class.

EDIT: don't say stuff like permablock or super tanky. I solo them under 2 minutes.

everyone can solo resources, it's just more of a pain in the ass than it needs to be as a magicka build. i mean eclipse reflects even concealed weapon (which it should not) eclipse needs to be breakable again, it was a terrible idea.

Eclipse does not reflect AoE skills.

It will even reflect siege.

NightbladeMechanics

Alpheu5 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I've not noticed any changes with guards between this patch and last patch. I do have two main issues with guards, though:

1) guards present vastly different levels of difficulty to magicka classes versus stam classes because eclipse doesn't reflect most stamina based attacks.

2) eclipse teaches bad habits because it cannot be broken free from (this goes for player eclipse too). When fighting guards, players are inclined not to block reverb, frag, and other ccs in order to break free and acquire cc immunity, during which they are immune to eclipse and can dps freely. These reflexes can get you killed against players. When you are eclipsed, most aoe abilities still work, inclining many players to use bar setups for taking resources which vastly differ from proper PvP bars. These will also get you killed should players arrive to fight you.

I wouldn't call the intentional application of CC immunity a bad habit in all cases, as long as you have a retaliation immediately available when you do it. Sometimes I'll hardcast a frag while eclipsed just so I don't have to worry the situations where the eclipse is reapplied almost immediately before a reflectable ability is cast.

When on earth would you do that against actual players? Never. You'd burn unnecessary stam, take unnecessary damage, and put yourself in a channel that says "hey, hit me in one second when I'm lying flat on my back."

JDC1985

Resources are very easy to solo if anything they need a buff ive solod multiple resources while fighting 2 max level cp players plenty of times and won its a matter of skill if your having problems soloing it you need to uninstall if THREE OR FOUR of you are having issues taking a resource with no resistance other than ncps then there is no hope for you.

Sharee

JDC1985 wrote: »

Resources are very easy to solo if anything they need a buff ive solod multiple resources while fighting 2 max level cp players plenty of times and won its a matter of skill if your having problems soloing it you need to uninstall if THREE OR FOUR of you are having issues taking a resource with no resistance other than ncps then there is no hope for you.

Noone here is having problems soloing a resource. We are just pointing out that:

1, some of the abilities are bugged (you ARE supposed to become CC immune after a CC on you expires!)
2, soloing a resource is disproportionally more pain in the ass for a magicka character than for a stamina character because of eclipses that are a) unbreakable, b) don't give immunity on expire like they should (so you'll get perma-eclipsed)and c) they do not affect stamina toons.

Metemsycosis

As much as i disdain nerf threads, i will say that if i am on a stamina character theres no resource i cant take quickly using typically just snipe snipe snipe. But on a magicka character the threat is real and the struggle is real.

Only reason this matters to me btw is that solo players can impact the scoreboard thru resource ganking. It should be a challenge in other words. Idc about full heals but i care about my cc immunity getting ignored which becomes 100 percent more problematic when an opposing player shows up to defend.

RMerlin

I appreciate the level of difficulty/challenge involved (as a magsorc). I can still solo them if I don't blindly charge in. After all, 1500 AP shouldn't be freely handed to anyone.

The problem I have is the way these are made more difficult: it's just highly frustrating to be constantly spam-CCed, to constantly have the bubble appear right in the middle of a spell cast (and with the lag, aborting it in time is often not an option).

These need to apply CC immunity (to be in-line with the rest of the game). Make them hit a bit harder if you want to compensate.

Challenge doesn't necessarily need to imply frustrating.

Takes-No-Prisoner

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I've not noticed any changes with guards between this patch and last patch. I do have two main issues with guards, though:

1) guards present vastly different levels of difficulty to magicka classes versus stam classes because eclipse doesn't reflect most stamina based attacks.

2) eclipse teaches bad habits because it cannot be broken free from (this goes for player eclipse too). When fighting guards, players are inclined not to block reverb, frag, and other ccs in order to break free and acquire cc immunity, during which they are immune to eclipse and can dps freely. These reflexes can get you killed against players. When you are eclipsed, most aoe abilities still work, inclining many players to use bar setups for taking resources which vastly differ from proper PvP bars. These will also get you killed should players arrive to fight you.

Reason 2) is why I run into the tower first to bait a reaction from any and all incoming enemies. If the kitchen is too hot, I can pop a invis potion and drop out the back of the tower. Least if I get engaged in a tower by a player while dealing with NPC, I only have to go up to the top of the tower to make the enemy NPC go away.

Koolio

I would really like to see a dev grab a ranged or melee MNB and take a 3+ resource. Not saying it's difficult just want to see it. Chains through the floor and all. Then go take it with a Stam Sorc. See if they notice a difference.

sirston

ehh give @ZOS_BrianWheeler a break he gets screamed at every day. for not having PVP working properly too high of expectations from a trashy company.

waitwhat

Um, @MADshadowman , our understanding in Vivec isn't that they broke it again, but that they never fixed it. Was there supposed to be a time when they fixed it?

MADshadowman_

waitwhat wrote: »

Um, @MADshadowman , our understanding in Vivec isn't that they broke it again, but that they never fixed it. Was there supposed to be a time when they fixed it?

Yes, there was a time when they supposedly fixed it, and from my own experience i can say that they actually did fix it. But now the guards kinda feel like before with the constant cc spam and buggy crap like chains through walls, stun locks, instant full heals and stuff like that.

Serjustin19

It's happening again? After what happened last time with guards acting up, I'm kinda nervous attacking npc's guards by self. I now usually wait by the enemy (lvl 1 and 2) resources and hopefully someone comes.

If not, if no one comes to aid me in (lvl1 and lvl2 resources) I just go hide in keep, with shame. I don't believe I can anymore, these guards are way OP. But if What you say is true, in which I believe. The End Is Nigh.... Least for me since I not OP lol.