Magic sorcs are not op . Sort your build out

Countcalorie

magsorc op.

Minno

Araviel2 wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Shields in general are out of balance because of simply how they allow a light armor wearer to be tanky with no sacrifice to sustain or damage. Medium armor wearers are not tanky and have to go to heavy for greater survivability but in that process lose sustain and damage. There's nothing that forces Shield classes like MagSorc to wear heavy armor for more survivability because they already have max survivability in shields.

how did you come to this conclusion?
Shields are some of the resource heaviest skills there is.
I could also argue that you sacrifice damage as it is active defense that takes up slots which could be filled with dps skills otherwise.
and also because how resource intensive they are one also has to sacrifice damage in order to sustain them


@Minno you might be on to something.

Well since my Templar is a Breton and they get a ridiculous amount of spell resistance in LA, I've been testing how much I need to survive. In LA, if I use a few other sources of resistance gain, I can be at 34000 spell resistance. Take that HA users! (Templar - 2640, Breton - 3960, LA - 1815 = 8415 or 12% mitigation before penetration)

Vanilla LA physical armor is around 13000, if you take one HA piece and one medium armor piece. Vanilla HA gets around 21k physical resistance. LA, when buffed, can reach 23k physical without defending traits, but you need other items/sources of resistance if you want to keep an offensive trait.

And I still can get 10% to Hardy, which is important to have since bleeds ignore resistance and it takes less CP to get 10% mitigation than it does to stack LA focus. I also dropped vampire since the extra fire DMG and FG skills defeats the purpose of having such high resistance. Overall it's looking promising, especially since I also have 4000 crit resistance, 45-51% crit chance, 37k mag, 2600 SD buffed, and 1500 mag recovery lol.

Takes-No-Prisoner

Dk_needs_a_buff wrote: »

Im sick of the million posts saying sorcs are op. Just because you find sorcs for difficult it doesnt mean theyr op. It just means you have the wrong build.
Ouch that hurts doesnt it.

But it's true. Sort your build out and l2p before raging

Micah_Bayer

Twohothardware wrote: »

Shields in general are out of balance because of simply how they allow a light armor wearer to be tanky with no sacrifice to sustain or damage. Medium armor wearers are not tanky and have to go to heavy for greater survivability but in that process lose sustain and damage. There's nothing that forces Shield classes like MagSorc to wear heavy armor for more survivability because they already have max survivability in shields.

You want survivability. Wear troll king

Brrrofski

They've been top two in PvP for as long as I can remember. I play mageblade a lot but sometimes go on to my sorc and it is pretty easy in comparison.

The fact you can proc a big damage skill when spanking shield is pretty strong. Ridiculous execute as well.

Not sure if op, but they are damn strong.

Koolio

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

I duel a friend with 10 characters the other night. he was a Stam Sorc. And a good player. Lost every time. Doesn't matter the build. Sustain Tanky bursty. Or the class MNB stamblade Templar. Grab my Sorc and beat him a few times. It was almost easy.

I don't care either way. I kill sorcs I get killed by sorcs. Buff my MNB lol.

Your sorc counters him thats why.

Can't really dark deal when he's being spammed by crushing shock.

I dont use crushing shock though. Just frag curse and fury. Same when I fight my friend that's a Dk. Struggle with other classes. I'd say he wins 75% of the time. With my Sorc it's a 10 min fight until we walk away.

Solariken wrote: »

IMO it's actually Healing Ward that is over-performing. I struggle big time with mag users who know how to cast HW at low health and then bury it with a Hardened or Harness. Sorcs are the biggest offenders but magvlades come in a close second.

Let's get Healing ward to actually work 100% of the time before it gets nerfed.

Solariken

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

IMO it's actually Healing Ward that is over-performing. I struggle big time with mag users who know how to cast HW at low health and then bury it with a Hardened or Harness. Sorcs are the biggest offenders but magvlades come in a close second.

The shield you cast first is the one to come off first.

So if their casting ward first they're doing it wrong.

@leepalmer95 that may be what they do idk I'm no sorc expert, but it's kind of irrelevant because the point still stands that a nearly-maxed Healing Ward plus a Hardened Ward is 6 seconds of near invincibility versus 1 player (and still ridiculously strong versus multiple).

ak_pvp

Biro123 wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

All they need to do is change Curse back to how it was..

I have no problem with that. Scoring kills after someone has already escaped is just wrong. (although I don't really understand the fuss as its sooo rare it happens)

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Shorten the window for Wrath/Fury.

Not sure on this. You can see - at 4 seconds, its designed to be cast before curse as part of the burst.. It *could* screw that up for some people.. Makes no difference to my usual DW builds tho since wrath is my spammable.

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Increase the cost of Streak and remove the ridiculous penalty.

I'm not sure that this would actually be a nerf..

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Everyone is happy.

They will NEVER be happy.

The only real issue is shields, and maayyyybe implosion. Curse buff was unnecessary, but not really a problem. Wrath/fury is fine as is, just make kill medals for assists in other gamemodes too.I think that streak should have its penalty removed, but not work whilst rooted. (Same with cloak, require setup before escape, but not punish the player for using it.)

Biro123 wrote: »

They will NEVER be happy.

Yup

Sandman929

Sorcs aren't OP, shields are. Make them crittable and all is well.

Koolio

Sandman929 wrote: »

Sorcs aren't OP, shields are. Make them crittable and all is well.

That's a great idea. I would love a 12k shield to crit and have an 18k shield.

Sandman929

Koolio wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Sorcs aren't OP, shields are. Make them crittable and all is well.

That's a great idea. I would love a 12k shield to crit and have an 18k shield.

Honestly I wouldn't even mind that as the tradeoff

Qbiken

When OP´s post is on the same level as most nerf-sorc threads.

CyrusArya

Solariken wrote: »

@leepalmer95 that may be what they do idk I'm no sorc expert, but it's kind of irrelevant because the point still stands that a nearly-maxed Healing Ward plus a Hardened Ward is 6 seconds of near invincibility versus 1 player (and still ridiculously strong versus multiple).

Nope. Keep in mind that the heal doesn't go off till the shield expires, and its strength scales with what remains of the shield. The counter play to healing ward is to apply pressure when it is applied at low health to deny a big heal and force a mistake. A well placed CC here will end the fight, but it relies on the aggressor having sufficient damage. Hardened Ward->healing Ward isn't over performing at all, not any more than vigor->dodge->rally. Whats over performing is harness magicka.

Sandman929 wrote: »

Sorcs aren't OP, shields are. Make them crittable and all is well.

Shields cannot be crit because they themselves cannot crit, and they also do not have any resistances. Let them have resistances and be able to crit and sure. Otherwise the amount of damage they take would be too high for them to be viable,

Waffennacht

Again though, shields + crit + resistance + impen = truly redonkuliously OP

Sandman929

A shield should be artificial armor and they should be brought in line with armor.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Again though, shields + crit + resistance + impen = truly redonkuliously OP

I don't think so. It makes them what I think shields should be which is artificial armor. A resistance implies, and maybe others are thinking of it differently, that a shield is not 100% mitigation.

Drdeath20

In groups sorcs are not really special but what makes sorcs great is they have best mobility, top tier damage and burst and the best class shield

Waffennacht

Sandman929 wrote: »

A shield should be artificial armor and they should be brought in line with armor.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Again though, shields + crit + resistance + impen = truly redonkuliously OP

I don't think so. It makes them what I think shields should be which is artificial armor. A resistance implies, and maybe others are thinking of it differently, that a shield is not 100% mitigation.

I'm slightly confused, are you saying it would just reduce dmg?

Cuz I read it as:

8k ward that could crit to 14k+ alone, then have my heavy armor's resistance, and then my 2.5k impen too, essentially having a single ward be valued at 20k+ mitigation that I can spam?

Hatoreehanzo

Classes have counters. You either aren't playing yours correctly or you're not on a counter.

Example, MagDK, Stamplar and Magplar.

Otherwise it's all about catching someone slipping. Shields don't mean anything if they're not up. Stall their resources.

Sandman929

Other things would have to change of course, cost, duration. They wouldn't have to be cheaper but the duration would have to be long so that shield casting is applying the artificial resistance to your low resistance light armor build.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

A shield should be artificial armor and they should be brought in line with armor.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Again though, shields + crit + resistance + impen = truly redonkuliously OP

I don't think so. It makes them what I think shields should be which is artificial armor. A resistance implies, and maybe others are thinking of it differently, that a shield is not 100% mitigation.

I'm slightly confused, are you saying it would just reduce dmg?

Cuz I read it as:

8k ward that could crit to 14k+ alone, then have my heavy armor's resistance, and then my 2.5k impen too, essentially having a single ward be valued at 20k+ mitigation that I can spam?

Spamming it wouldn't be needed, recasting shields would be like recasting a skill for Major Resolve. You cast it when it expires. It can be 50% mitigation, 60% whatever. Unfracturable? Fine. Cheaper? Ok. You'd use it to keep your mitigation high while using the benefits of light armor, but not as a way to keep your health bar immune from all damage.
Class heals would need another look and any change couldn't be in isolation, ZOS does enough of that already. Honestly it's not even worth the time discussing because anything bigger than changing tooltip numbers won't happen, that's why we only see number buffs and nerfs and rarely mechanic changes.
Keeping everything else as it is, make them crittable, make them able to crit, and we can see if that helps.

thankyourat

Hatoreehanzo wrote: »

Classes have counters. You either aren't playing yours correctly or you're not on a counter.

Example, MagDK, Stamplar and Magplar.

Otherwise it's all about catching someone slipping. Shields don't mean anything if they're not up. Stall their resources.

I agree the only problem is a lot of sorcs are wearing double sustain sets so it's impossible to do that now. I'm pretty sure it's cp and sets that's making shields unbalanced. Really if they just get rid of bastion shields would probably balance themselves out or either make a damage shield cap out at like 8k.

Lokey0024

Its funny noone mentioned 7-10k overload spamable or immovable pot streak destro ward spam. You know, the real reason they're OP

Minno

thankyourat wrote: »

Hatoreehanzo wrote: »

Classes have counters. You either aren't playing yours correctly or you're not on a counter.

Example, MagDK, Stamplar and Magplar.

Otherwise it's all about catching someone slipping. Shields don't mean anything if they're not up. Stall their resources.

I agree the only problem is a lot of sorcs are wearing double sustain sets so it's impossible to do that now. I'm pretty sure it's cp and sets that's making shields unbalanced. Really if they just get rid of bastion shields would probably balance themselves out or either make a damage shield cap out at like 8k.

Bastion results in weaker shields. It's access to Hardy, Ironclad, thick skin and ele defender that are inflating shields. Overall all the classes have access to redic crit resistance and resistances, but easily access to major protection+ CP mitigation stack is what keeps LA alive versus Stam builds.

Or add DMG, add burst, ignore penetration, and time CC to crack a shield quickly. But then be annoyed that HA users are doing to much mitigation for you to crack and have to start a nerf thread about that.

Or we can accept one build does not fit all situations.

Hatoreehanzo

thankyourat wrote: »

Hatoreehanzo wrote: »

Classes have counters. You either aren't playing yours correctly or you're not on a counter.

Example, MagDK, Stamplar and Magplar.

Otherwise it's all about catching someone slipping. Shields don't mean anything if they're not up. Stall their resources.

I agree the only problem is a lot of sorcs are wearing double sustain sets so it's impossible to do that now. I'm pretty sure it's cp and sets that's making shields unbalanced. Really if they just get rid of bastion shields would probably balance themselves out or either make a damage shield cap out at like 8k.

Nearly every sorc I fight on my Stamplar gets cooked. The pressure I put on them, while cleansing any burst setup attempt they do makes it rough to fight my bar, even if they mine camp. My stamblade however has trouble with them from time to time.

Lexxypwns

thankyourat wrote: »

Hatoreehanzo wrote: »

Classes have counters. You either aren't playing yours correctly or you're not on a counter.

Example, MagDK, Stamplar and Magplar.

Otherwise it's all about catching someone slipping. Shields don't mean anything if they're not up. Stall their resources.

I agree the only problem is a lot of sorcs are wearing double sustain sets so it's impossible to do that now. I'm pretty sure it's cp and sets that's making shields unbalanced. Really if they just get rid of bastion shields would probably balance themselves out or either make a damage shield cap out at like 8k.

If you're wearing 2 sustain sets you are losing out on utility or damage, that's a fair trade off. These sorcs still have a painfully small burst window to get off their telegraphed damage. Sure, maybe you can't burst them if they just turtle and stack shields but they also can't put out threatening burst if you're built correctly. Poisons counter sustain sets anyway.

The sorcs that are "scary" are running either a damage or utility set. This gives them more effective burst or a longer burst window respectively, both of which allow the sorc to actually mount threatening offense.

Lexxypwns

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Its funny noone mentioned 7-10k overload spamable or immovable pot streak destro ward spam. You know, the real reason they're OP

For large group play any Damage build that isn't a mageblade is an absolute waste. Sorc with destro and streak can't be OP when it's such a mediocre facsimile of what mageblade does in the same scenario.

Solariken

CyrusArya wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

@leepalmer95 that may be what they do idk I'm no sorc expert, but it's kind of irrelevant because the point still stands that a nearly-maxed Healing Ward plus a Hardened Ward is 6 seconds of near invincibility versus 1 player (and still ridiculously strong versus multiple).

Nope. Keep in mind that the heal doesn't go off till the shield expires, and its strength scales with what remains of the shield. The counter play to healing ward is to apply pressure when it is applied at low health to deny a big heal and force a mistake. A well placed CC here will end the fight, but it relies on the aggressor having sufficient damage. Hardened Ward->healing Ward isn't over performing at all, not any more than vigor->dodge->rally. Whats over performing is harness magicka.

Sandman929 wrote: »

Sorcs aren't OP, shields are. Make them crittable and all is well.

Shields cannot be crit because they themselves cannot crit, and they also do not have any resistances. Let them have resistances and be able to crit and sure. Otherwise the amount of damage they take would be too high for them to be viable,

I think you are missing the point - it's not the heal component that's strong with Healing Ward - it's the size of the shield at low health. All magicka classes can heal up passively while they go offensive after stacking Healing Ward with another shield. The heal from Healing Ward is just icing on top.

If you front-load a shield like Hardened, you can soak just about any burst rotation in the game and still have some HP left, at which point you break free then cast Healing Ward and then another shield - now you are the incredible Hulk and can go ham on your target without any fear whatsoever.

My ONLY hope against a good sorc is lining up my CC plus burst at the same instant all shields drop, and even then it's only if they make a mistake and don't recast Hardened.

Alpheu5

Biro123 wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

All they need to do is change Curse back to how it was..

I have no problem with that. Scoring kills after someone has already escaped is just wrong. (although I don't really understand the fuss as its sooo rare it happens)

Managed to snag a clip of it happening the other night. First time it's happened to me.

https://youtu.be/OqWX5VmFAA8

br0steen

I dont have any issues killing sorcs on my stamplar, stam warden, magic warden, mag dk or stam sorc. Ever thought, "maybe its me". Cause you should.

I find it more difficult killing mag sorcs while on a mag sorc ironically enough.

Biro123

I think most complaints come from stamblades who fail with the gank then realise that they can't finish them off cos shields.

I suspect they also subconsciously subscribe to the gameplay common in other MMOs whereby the cloth caster is the natural prey of the stealther.

Waffennacht

.

Solariken wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

@leepalmer95 that may be what they do idk I'm no sorc expert, but it's kind of irrelevant because the point still stands that a nearly-maxed Healing Ward plus a Hardened Ward is 6 seconds of near invincibility versus 1 player (and still ridiculously strong versus multiple).

Nope. Keep in mind that the heal doesn't go off till the shield expires, and its strength scales with what remains of the shield. The counter play to healing ward is to apply pressure when it is applied at low health to deny a big heal and force a mistake. A well placed CC here will end the fight, but it relies on the aggressor having sufficient damage. Hardened Ward->healing Ward isn't over performing at all, not any more than vigor->dodge->rally. Whats over performing is harness magicka.

Sandman929 wrote: »

Sorcs aren't OP, shields are. Make them crittable and all is well.

Shields cannot be crit because they themselves cannot crit, and they also do not have any resistances. Let them have resistances and be able to crit and sure. Otherwise the amount of damage they take would be too high for them to be viable,

I think you are missing the point - it's not the heal component that's strong with Healing Ward - it's the size of the shield at low health. All magicka classes can heal up passively while they go offensive after stacking Healing Ward with another shield. The heal from Healing Ward is just icing on top.

If you front-load a shield like Hardened, you can soak just about any burst rotation in the game and still have some HP left, at which point you break free then cast Healing Ward and then another shield - now you are the incredible Hulk and can go ham on your target without any fear whatsoever.

My ONLY hope against a good sorc is lining up my CC plus burst at the same instant all shields drop, and even then it's only if they make a mistake and don't recast Hardened.

Which is why nerfing Oblivion Damage Glyphs was such a poor decision