To the people kicking out lvl40+ players from normal dungeons for not having CP.....

Stinkyremy

Zoliru wrote: »

and giving that Player a 15 min CD because of it....

all of you that do this.... in a normal dungeon...

Go and F.... yourselfs....

thats all....

wish i could slap people through the screen sometimes....

What I find worse is going into a cp160 vet dungeon and finding a 100cp player or even less, making me have to quit and take a 15min suspension.
So it works both ways.

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO

@Artis No I get that you've been doing a devil's advocate thing or whatever. I just don't agree with your justifications, because I care about feelings I guess. When you're dealing with a community, virtual or otherwise, there are factors to consider beyond "simple logic".

Yeah, it's not a big deal. Everyone was there. 

Really? I never had to deal with vote to kick bs while I was leveling a low level and running dungeons. A lot of people have never had to.

Again, if people want to act like jerks more power to them. I'm not deciding anyones playstyle obviously. Just pointing out that high level players have options, and can't really act scandalized when others point out their rude behavior.

Mickey_Ox

Level is irrelevant, if you don't pull your weight you get the boot. Simples

Artis

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

@Artis No I get that you've been doing a devil's advocate thing or whatever. I just don't agree with your justifications, because I care about feelings I guess. When you're dealing with a community, virtual or otherwise, there are factors to consider beyond "simple logic".

Yeah, it's not a big deal. Everyone was there. 

Really? I never had to deal with vote to kick bs while I was leveling a low level and running dungeons. A lot of people have never had to.

Again, if people want to act like jerks more power to them. I'm not deciding anyones playstyle obviously. Just pointing out that high level players have options, and can't really act scandalized when others point out their rude behavior.

Yes, really. Not a big deal. Vote kick or removed by a leader - doesn't matter. Everyone started as level 1.

Also, I'd like to notice that it's not high level players who act scandalized here.

Low level players have options, too, and aren't entitled to any special treatment. If they get it - good. If not - not a big deal.

p.s. I just noticed that the title specifically mentions players of lvl 40+. So guess even for OP it's ok to kick players that are lower?

anitajoneb17_ESO

Artis wrote: »

It's not about me. It might be discourteous, but no one is entitled to others' courtesy.

That's where we disagree. Courtesy and politeness are the common ground for social interaction with strangers. Everyone should feel compelled to be courteous and is entitled to other people being courteous. Sure, some people aren't courteous but they're in the wrong and that should be made very clear.

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

I'm exhausted. I feel like I'm typing the same thing over and over again.

That's the signal that it's time to leave this conversation, I guess.
Rest assured that you made your point very clear and that many, if not most people agree with you. There will always be people who refuse to understand, even with the best rationality and the most detailed explanations.
Rest also assured that most PUGs ingame behave in a nice, civil, open and helpful way. It's not the jungle we tend to imagine when reading the forums.

Artis

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

That's where we disagree. Courtesy and politeness are the common ground for social interaction with strangers. Everyone should feel compelled to be courteous and is entitled to other people being courteous. Sure, some people aren't courteous but they're in the wrong and that should be made very clear.

And some students disagree that you can take a square root of -1. Doesn't change anything. Yes, you can. And no, you are not entitled to anything from other people. YOU can be courteous all you want - you do you, but you are NOT entitled to courtesy of others. It's just like with respect. You have to earn it. Or happen to come across a person who feels like being courteous to you (or everybody).

But you are absolutely not entitled to a person putting your needs and goals before his own. You can hope for it, or ask for it, and should be thankful if you get it. But you can't expect it.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

That's the signal that it's time to leave this conversation, I guess.
Rest assured that you made your point very clear and that many, if not most people agree with you. There will always be people who refuse to understand, even with the best rationality and the most detailed explanations.
Rest also assured that most PUGs ingame behave in a nice, civil, open and helpful way. It's not the jungle we tend to imagine when reading the forums.

No, that's the signal that you can't argue with logic and after you argument was shown wrong, you can't come up with a better one. If most people agreed with him though, then why would threads like this one be so common? Again, if most PUGs in game behave in that way - then there's no big deal and nothing should be changed. Just like I said.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Artis wrote: »

And some students disagree that you can take a square root of -1. Doesn't change anything. Yes, you can. And no, you are not entitled to anything from other people. YOU can be courteous all you want - you do you, but you are NOT entitled to courtesy of others. It's just like with respect. You have to earn it.
.../...
No, that's the signal that you can't argue with logic and after you argument was shown wrong, you can't come up with a better one. If most people agreed with him though, then why would threads like this one be so common? Again, if most PUGs in game behave in that way - then there's no big deal and nothing should be changed. Just like I said.

Let's agree to disagree. On everything you said. Have a nice evening.

Artis

So then you are saying you are entitled to people putting your goals and needs before their own.

No, I can't agree with that.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Artis wrote: »

So then you are saying you are entitled to people putting your goals and needs before their own.

No, I can't agree with that.

Do not put words in my mouth.
Also, learn to read. I didn't ask you to agree with me. I said lets agree to disagree.
You're looking for fight. That's why it's the last message from me to you on the subject.
Have a nice evening.

Artis

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

So then you are saying you are entitled to people putting your goals and needs before their own.

No, I can't agree with that.

Do not put words in my mouth.
Also, learn to read. I did ask you to agree with me. I said lets agree to disagree.
You're looking for fight. That's why it's the last message from me to you on the subject.
Have a nice evening.

Nope, that's not what you said. You said you want to agree to disagree. On everything I said.

And I said - and I keep insisting on this - that you are absolutely not entitled to a person putting your needs and goals before his own. I'll add time to the list, too, actually: goals, needs, and time. You can hope for it, or ask for it, and should be thankful if you get it. But you can't expect it.

If you want to disagree with this, I can't agree to disagree. But you absolutely feel free to leave if you have nothing to say.

Eshenya

Zoliru wrote: »

and giving that Player a 15 min CD because of it....

all of you that do this.... in a normal dungeon...

Go and F.... yourselfs....

thats all....

wish i could slap people through the screen sometimes....

seeing your attitude, i can see why people would kick you..

Jeremy

Eshenya wrote: »

Zoliru wrote: »

and giving that Player a 15 min CD because of it....

all of you that do this.... in a normal dungeon...

Go and F.... yourselfs....

thats all....

wish i could slap people through the screen sometimes....

seeing your attitude, i can see why people would kick you..

I think his attitude is justified, assuming it occurred after he was removed from a normal dungeon based entirely on his CP levels (probably done at the very beginning as well).

People frequently abuse the kick option on this game like I've rarely if ever seen on any other game in my life. It's utterly ridiculous how quick people are to kick others on this game. The developers should have taken some steps to correct it years ago.

Dysprosium

To me, if you want a fast flawless run then run with people you know from your guilds.

If you que for a dungeon, you do so with the full knowledge you could get anyone eligible for that dungeon- suck it up buttercup and run it...and if you are unhappy with the group you drop instead of kicking.

Perhaps ZOS should hide levels from players so they cannot be elitist jerks. You want someone with a certain CP you can shop around in zone chat to form a group or run with guildees/pals.

Of course typically people that are queing for dungeons don't have friends either because they are new (low levels) or if they have high CP they are people who are generally are selfish/lacking social graces and view the rest of the people in world as npc's /means to an end. I guess this is why we see so much kicking in those cases.

Mancombe_Nosehair

I had another amusing group finder yesterday. My lvl 41 healer found himself with a group of cp 100 to 150's, who had either kicked or lost their healer. However, a bug meant that I couldn't teleport to them, so they kicked me out.

I joined the queue again to find myself with them a second time. This time I was able to teleport to them. I found them in banished cells 1, unable to kill the last two bosses at the end, despite it being one of the easiest dungeons. I found it amusing that, despite their levels, they couldn't finish a simple dungeon without me.

It just goes to show that a char's level doesn't really mean much in this game; it's the human playing that char that counts.

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO

Welp. Shame on me for not having the strength to avoid thread. @Artis This is the last response you'll get from me I promise.

Artis wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

That's the signal that it's time to leave this conversation, I guess.
Rest assured that you made your point very clear and that many, if not most people agree with you. There will always be people who refuse to understand, even with the best rationality and the most detailed explanations.
Rest also assured that most PUGs ingame behave in a nice, civil, open and helpful way. It's not the jungle we tend to imagine when reading the forums.

No, that's the signal that you can't argue with logic and after you argument was shown wrong, you can't come up with a better one. If most people agreed with him though, then why would threads like this one be so common? Again, if most PUGs in game behave in that way - then there's no big deal and nothing should be changed. Just like I said.

I'm a chick jsyk. Before you accuse me of being an SJW again, that's not intended to be a "gotcha". My avatar is currently a chub loon. I understand.

And some students disagree that you can take a square root of -1. Doesn't change anything. Yes, you can. And no, you are not entitled to anything from other people. YOU can be courteous all you want - you do you, but you are NOT entitled to courtesy of others. It's just like with respect. You have to earn it. Or happen to come across a person who feels like being courteous to you (or everybody).

But you are absolutely not entitled to a person putting your needs and goals before his own. You can hope for it, or ask for it, and should be thankful if you get it. But you can't expect it.

I don't know how much training you've had in formal logic, but I will tell you that's not really how any of this works.

Your square root of -1 example is irrelevant because it can and has been proven that negative numbers cannot possibly have square roots. We know that every number squared is positive. Now let's look at your last sentence as a series of assertations (statements) so I can demonstrate the difference.

statements:
a: Most PUGS in this game kick low level players
b: There is no problem
c: Nothing should be changed

In terms of propositional logic you have said:

a (if-then) (b (and) c)

Your arguement is logically valid, but not logically sound because you haven't provided any quanitative evidence that your premise is true. Sure we've established a lot of PUGS are guilty of this behavior but not >50%. An if-then arguement cannot be logically sound until there is a verifiably true premise that guarentees the outcome.

Additionally, "there is no problem" and "nothing has changed" are subjective statements that are true or false depending on a person's "feelings" since no concrete criteria has been decided upon. Since there are no set truth values, I cannot disprove your claim.

To illustrate what I'm saying, here's an example from a textbook:

Beth says "I think all swans are white. If there are black swans, then science is stupid."

a: Beth thinks all swans are white
b: There are black swans
c: Science is stupid

(a (and) b) (if-then) c

Her arguement is obviously unsound, but is it logically valid? Absolutely. If I was arguing with her, I could not prove her wrong because based on her criteria science is indeed stupid. Her premise is demonstrably true. So even if you proved that more than 50% would kick low level players, I could never disprove your claim, because we have not, and will not ever establish a common criteria on the statements "everything is fine" and "nothing should change".

Now do you see why I said we couldn't reach a common understanding earlier? When people say "agree to disagree" this is why. My main argument in terms of propositional logic can be simplified to this:

a: a player is kicking low level players for (insert reason)
b: kicking players for (insert reason) is rude
c: this player is rude

(a (and) b)(if-then)(c)

This statement is logically valid. To me this statement is true, because of my feelings on rude online play. Our difference of opinion means our truth values for statements b and c are different, even if a is objectively true. Therefore you cannot possibly prove my argument wrong.

This is why I'm uninterested in continuing this argument, and why earlier I said there's more to this discussion than simple logic. I don't mean to be an *** about it, I just want to be clear. You are demanding I objectively prove and disprove arguments where such thinking doesn't apply. I have stated again and again my position on the matter, and explained my reasoning. That is the absolute best I can do. The criteria for entitled behavior and entitlement to courtesy, and rude behavior are absolutely subjective, which is why there is no headway to be made in this matter.

zaria

Jeremy wrote: »

Eshenya wrote: »

Zoliru wrote: »

and giving that Player a 15 min CD because of it....

all of you that do this.... in a normal dungeon...

Go and F.... yourselfs....

thats all....

wish i could slap people through the screen sometimes....

seeing your attitude, i can see why people would kick you..

I think his attitude is justified, assuming it occurred after he was removed from a normal dungeon based entirely on his CP levels (probably done at the very beginning as well).

People frequently abuse the kick option on this game like I've rarely if ever seen on any other game in my life. It's utterly ridiculous how quick people are to kick others on this game. The developers should have taken some steps to correct it years ago.

WOW has an kick limit, think it was you can kick once in an dungeon, you get an second kick if non in group has kicked before that day. Worked well and force some care in kicking.

In fact far the most kicks I have seen is kicking low levels as in below 20 from normal dlc at the start.
And yes it tend to be an bad sign. Its always scrubs who ask for the kicks as they know dungeons will be hard with two weak players

Most fun was darkshade 2 normal, guildmates asked for healer and I joined, has done it many times, green phase is the issue, stack up and block during it and its no issue, a couple of wipes and cp300 left, lvl 17 enter, explained tactic go and clear
Think it was one death yes group got more experience and an low level has lots of health.

Mancombe_Nosehair

Had a horrible pug two nights ago. We got put in crypt of hearts normal 2. We got the the spider boss, and it was obvious the the two dps guys didn't know what they were doing. Wiped three times before tank quit. 2nd tank arrives, asks us if we know what we are doing (dps guys are strangely quiet). We wipe again, 2nd tank quits.

3rd "tank" arrives, with 12k hp. Oh, and also listed as a dps. Doesn't taunt. We wipe again. One dps quits and I become leader. I vote to kick "tank". Rejected. As leader I just don't use group finder until fanker gets the hint. He does, and quits. We get a 4th tank and another dps joins. First dps quits and another joins. Finally beat the spider.

By the time we get to the last boss, everyone runs in the same direction and we wipe a few more times. By this time I have been in this dungeon over an hour and my wife is going to kill me for playing far too long. I quit and find my wife asleep on the sofa, with no idea how long a had been playing, which was about the only good thing that happened.

Oh, and the red fear ghost bug pushed me through the wall twice. Must have wiped at least 12 times, if not more overall.

Artis

Dysprosium wrote: »

To me, if you want a fast flawless run then run with people you know from your guilds.

If you que for a dungeon, you do so with the full knowledge you could get anyone eligible for that dungeon- suck it up buttercup and run it...and if you are unhappy with the group you drop instead of kicking.

Perhaps ZOS should hide levels from players so they cannot be elitist jerks. You want someone with a certain CP you can shop around in zone chat to form a group or run with guildees/pals.

Of course typically people that are queing for dungeons don't have friends either because they are new (low levels) or if they have high CP they are people who are generally are selfish/lacking social graces and view the rest of the people in world as npc's /means to an end. I guess this is why we see so much kicking in those cases.

Trust me, I don't need to see your level to know if you suck or not. I will know it by seeing group buff/debuff, mobs running around, people spending way too much with low hp, number of warhorns that I hear if you're tank or healer, I will see it by how you weave attacks and by group DPS in combat metrics if you're a DPS.

I will probably even see your level by your hp. But yes, what you suggest might help a little.

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

I'm a chick jsyk. Before you accuse me of being an SJW again, that's not intended to be a "gotcha". My avatar is currently a chub loon. I understand.

Because I said "him"? I didn't know who you were and in my language "python" is a "he". Imagine that I used "her" instead of "him".

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

I don't know how much training you've had in formal logic, but I will tell you that's not really how any of this works.

Your square root of -1 example is irrelevant because it can and has been proven that negative numbers cannot possibly have square roots. We know that every number squared is positive. Now let's look at your last sentence as a series of assertations (statements) so I can demonstrate the difference.

LOL is anyone else reading this? See, thanks for proving my point. Being so opinionated comes from ignorance. Of course, negative numbers have square roots. You just need to define the set you're working on. A first-grader won't know this, but someone who takes higher-level math will. And that's the thing - you have no idea what you are talking about, but still argue with someone who does. I recommend you don't do that anymore.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_unit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_number

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

statements:
a: Most PUGS in this game kick low level players
b: There is no problem
c: Nothing should be changed

In terms of propositional logic you have said:

a (if-then) (b (and) c)

That's not what I said. I never said most pugs kick low level players, and I never based my argument on that either. Like, that's not at all what I said.

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

Your arguement is logically valid, but not logically sound because you haven't provided any quanitative evidence that your premise is true. Sure we've established a lot of PUGS are guilty of this behavior but not >50%. An if-then arguement cannot be logically sound until there is a verifiably true premise that guarentees the outcome.

Additionally, "there is no problem" and "nothing has changed" are subjective statements that are true or false depending on a person's "feelings" since no concrete criteria has been decided upon. Since there are no set truth values, I cannot disprove your claim.

My argument is both valid and sound. And it's also not what you're saying it is. Re-read the thread.

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

To illustrate what I'm saying, here's an example from a textbook:

Beth says "I think all swans are white. If there are black swans, then science is stupid."

a: Beth thinks all swans are white
b: There are black swans
c: Science is stupid

(a (and) b) (if-then) c

Her arguement is obviously unsound, but is it logically valid? Absolutely. If I was arguing with her, I could not prove her wrong because based on her criteria science is indeed stupid. Her premise is demonstrably true. So even if you proved that more than 50% would kick low level players, I could never disprove your claim, because we have not, and will not ever establish a common criteria on the statements "everything is fine" and "nothing should change".

Now do you see why I said we couldn't reach a common understanding earlier? When people say "agree to disagree" this is why. My main argument in terms of propositional logic can be simplified to this:

a: a player is kicking low level players for (insert reason)
b: kicking players for (insert reason) is rude
c: this player is rude

(a (and) b)(if-then)(c)

This statement is logically valid. To me this statement is true, because of my feelings on rude online play. Our difference of opinion means our truth values for statements b and c are different, even if a is objectively true. Therefore you cannot possibly prove my argument wrong.

Back to textbooks for you @theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO . The actual example is different. What you did is tried to rephrase it to fit your argument and failed. And you could prove her wrong, because there's no such thing as her criteria of science.

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

This is why I'm uninterested in continuing this argument, and why earlier I said there's more to this discussion than simple logic. I don't mean to be an *** about it, I just want to be clear. You are demanding I objectively prove and disprove arguments where such thinking doesn't apply. I have stated again and again my position on the matter, and explained my reasoning. That is the absolute best I can do. The criteria for entitled behavior and entitlement to courtesy, and rude behavior are absolutely subjective, which is why there is no headway to be made in this matter.

Nope, I don't demand that. Or show me where I do. I demand you explain why you are entitled to me putting your time and goals before my own, when you are just a stranger to me. No one is entitled for that or can expect that. You can hope for it, though.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Artis wrote: »

Of course, negative numbers have square roots. You just need to define the set you're working on.

LooooooooLLLLL !!!
Are you REALLY bringing IMAGINARY numbers ("created" or "declared as existant" by mathematicians for the sole purpose to fill in the holes in their equations) into a discussion about social relationships ?????? Really ?
I think you're better off staying in your own "world" I guess Have fun in there.

SoLooney

lol, some ppl dont like carrying low levels. Some low level I carried was extremely ungrateful and a jerk for saying wow, wish i had more max cps to match like you, didnt have to do anything and i get free loot and exp, too easy. i told him youre not always gonna be lucky to have strong dps or people who are gonna tolerate that behavior. he was very lucky me and a friend didnt kick. it was random normal, needed to lvl up some skills, just needed to complete the dungeon.

also those queueing a tank or healer as a dps, i dont really mind tbh except hard vet dungeons like ds2 or dlc ones but you better have some dang good dps and if youre a fake tank, you better initiate the boss fights or kick and a bye bye

Artis

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Of course, negative numbers have square roots. You just need to define the set you're working on.

LooooooooLLLLL !!!
Are you REALLY bringing IMAGINARY numbers ("created" or "declared as existant" by mathematicians for the sole purpose to fill in the holes in their equations) into a discussion about social relationships ?????? Really ?
I think you're better off staying in your own "world" I guess Have fun in there.

Facepalm. Take some classes maybe?

They are not imaginary in the sense that they are just in imagination. They have very practical use. eFor example, showing the extinction coefficient of a material in optics. Or frequency when doing the Laplace transform.

In my world the gravitational waves wouldn't be detected if not those "imaginary" numbers.


But you can stay in your world of people who have no idea how the world works and don't even want to know. Or you can google something like "imaginary numbers aren't actually imaginary" for further reading. Right now you just embarrassed your self in front of everyone with decent education.

The morale - if you are ignorant @anitajoneb17_ESO , you shouldn't be proud of it. You are wrong and need to broaden your mind. Because otherwise you'll be saying things like this:

Your square root of -1 example is irrelevant because it can and has been proven that negative numbers cannot possibly have square roots. We know that every number squared is positive.

Which is twice false. 1) it hasn't been proven, in fact, the opposite has been proven. 2) second sentence is irrelevant at all. Every number squared is positive, indeed. Regardless of whether this number is positive.

The fact that you even got some likes is upsetting and tells a lot about american education system. On the other hand, that's why people like myself are in demand and get into academia.

Alexandrious

starkerealm wrote: »

Vipstaakki wrote: »

How far up the deep end do you have to be to kick someone with no CP from a normal spindleclutch?

A Skyreach baby pulling something like that wouldn't surprise me.

Skyreach baby?

Alexandrious

Sighs. Yet another thing eso can learn from a superior mmo, ffxiv. K this will fix it all.

Copy ffxiv kick system. Cant kick when entering dungeon for 15 mins, gives players a chance to show they aint ***. Cannot kick for 15 mins after a boss kill, that way, cant kick if ya feel a player is bad, he will wanna get to the next boss and try his hardest. Remove penalty if kicked. Also, set a min requirement for dungeons, maybe cp req and equipment star req for specific tough dungeons, xiv has basically the same. This will solve most problems. Also remove being able to que as multiple roles, game shoild do a check on your gear, current skill bar and lock that skill bar while in dungeon so that you cant que as tank due to what ya set, go in then change your skills to dps orientation.

But zenimax wont do it. Too busy making stuff for microtransactions and content geared towards casuals. Meh.

Ah well, if any of ya is bold enough, ya can start making a collective *** list of idiots and *** to post on reddit so ppl can kick em for they're bad behavior. Meh.

Rianai

I like the idea of not being able to kick right at the start of the dungeon, not sure about the after boss kill restriction though. Overall 15 minutes seems a bit long, considering how fast some dungeons can be done.

I definitely don't like your suggestion about being locked into one role and a certain setup. There are players that can perform multiple roles just fine (either because the have multiple gear and skill setups aviable, or because they can actually heal/tank on a (slightly adjusted) dps build. Your suggestion would most likely lead to 2 things:
1. Increased queue time for dps players, because even less players will queue as tanks and healers.
2. More failed runs, because players can't adapt their build to a given situation, eg. tanks and healers can't swap to a more dmg oriented setup, if grp dps is lacking (which is very common in pug runs and which will make those 2 roles even less appealing for pug runs), or the tank can't slot some heals if healing is lacking, or a dps slotting ele drain and a shield, because tank and healer aren't doing that great, and so on ...

But it would not increase the "quality" of players in your pug dungeon runs, because queueing for 1 role only doesn't neccessarily mean, that player is better at performing his role than someone who has choosen multiple roles.

Zypheran

It always annoys me when I read these threads because it seems to demonstrate that both the community (and probably society at large) has an abundance of individuals who are staggeringly oblivious to simple curteousy!
There is no defensible excuse for kicking players from normal dungeons just because they are low level. I have heard and read all the arguments countless times but they all amount to the fact that some people just don't give a damn about others and as long as they get what they want, that's all that matters!

Artis

Zypheran wrote: »

It always annoys me when I read these threads because it seems to demonstrate that both the community (and probably society at large) has an abundance of individuals who are staggeringly oblivious to simple curteousy!
There is no defensible excuse for kicking players from normal dungeons just because they are low level. I have heard and read all the arguments countless times but they all amount to the fact that some people just don't give a damn about others and as long as they get what they want, that's all that matters!

I agree. It is very sad that some people don't give a damn about others and go to dungeons without doing their homework and making sure they aren't a burden for others to carry. They just don't care as long as get what they want, that's all that matters to them.

Zypheran

Artis wrote: »

Zypheran wrote: »

It always annoys me when I read these threads because it seems to demonstrate that both the community (and probably society at large) has an abundance of individuals who are staggeringly oblivious to simple curteousy!
There is no defensible excuse for kicking players from normal dungeons just because they are low level. I have heard and read all the arguments countless times but they all amount to the fact that some people just don't give a damn about others and as long as they get what they want, that's all that matters!

I agree. It is very sad that some people don't give a damn about others and go to dungeons without doing their homework and making sure they aren't a burden for others to carry. They just don't care as long as get what they want, that's all that matters to them.

We're talking about normal dungeons. You don't need to 'do your homework' here, you just do them and learn as you go along. Also, neither the thread title nor my comments make any mention of poor players. The thread (as I read it) is talking about kicking lvl 40 players because they don't have CP. I believe it is wrong to imply a correlation between non-CP players and bad players, as your comments seem to have done.

Artis

Well that's your belief. The correlation is definitely there, that's for sure, whether you believe it or not. Now, should players kick them? I don't think so, I know I wouldn't. But are they entitled to not being kicked and should they expect anything from a random dungeon? I don't think so, I know I wouldn't.

Normal or not, you do need to do your homework if you want to play with other people. See, that's the different in mentality - you think it's cool to be a burden, and I don't want to be one. As a result, I have no expectations and don't get butt hurt if I get kicked. Not that I get kicked because I just figured our how my character worked and how to perform my role before actually starting group content. Then again, it was easier for me after playing another MMO for years.

Either way I think the kicking happens very rarely in normals and the thread just gets way more attention than it deserves.

Rianai

<lvl 50 doesn't equal no cp, just saying ...

Could be an experienced player with max cp on an alt, who can perform much better than many other players above lvl 50.

Storymaster

Yeah, it just gets problematic when the more difficult dungeons are included in the Random Normal rotation, so you end up snagging a level 10 Tank and a level 12 healer, to say little of the wee DPS's new to the game that come in with a sword and board, execute zero abilities, and do nothing but light attacks the whole time. None of this would matter if the Random Norm dungeon rotation only included the original launch dungeons. But when you get Mazzatun, Bloodrot, or Falkreathe Hold, White Gold Tower it can be potentially frustrating.

And it's not the players' fault either. They're just queueing for a random normal, which is their right. They just tryin to get they lowbie dungeon on, yo.

But why the more difficult DLC dungeons are included in this rotation is beyond baffling to me.