To the people kicking out lvl40+ players from normal dungeons for not having CP.....

QuebraRegra

Danksta wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

humpalicous wrote: »

XxBradeyxX wrote: »

It depends on the dungeon though. I am not carrying no low level 100 through vet mazzatun.

He specifically mentioned a normal dungeon, most which are soloable.

not the ones with mechanics ie. fungal II, etc.

I've solo'ed FG2 on normal dozens of times.

ok I'll play...

So when you get chained by the shadow tormentors of Gaymne Bandu , what happens?

deleted008293

They kick them because:
- they want smooth fast runs and don't have time to spend with low level players. Quick judging because some of those players could be end game players as well.
- they want to farm certain stuff and you can't provide them with what they want.
- they farm certain bosses for some particular loot. I had players leaving after a certain boss because they wanted to farm that particular boss over and over.
- communication problems, attitude, racism, etc
- their class is not at all optimal, or they are new players who do not know much about the game and they don't have time to teach them what to do and how to do their job.

There should be a tiered level for random dungeon finder so high level players can avoid grouping with low level players if they do not want to.

If this helps:

Some normal dungeons lasts for like 1 hour if not more due to bad groups That mean lost time and resources. In good groups you can just go full dds and have fun and finish the whole dungeon in 15-20 minutes and that even on veteran, let alone normal.

Rianai

QuebraRegra wrote: »

ok I'll play...

So when you get chained by the shadow tormentors of Gaymne Bandu , what happens?

They die to aoe dots.

nordmarian wrote: »

Some normal dungeons lasts for like 1 hour if not more due to bad groups That mean lost time and resources. In good groups you can just go full dds and have fun and finish the whole dungeon in 15-20 minutes and that even on veteran, let alone normal.

A single "bad" player won't slow down a good group significantly, especially when compared to the time it takes to wait for replacement (that might be even worse) or to 3-man the dungeon. Hour long normal dungeon runs are usually the result of the whole group being unexperienced - and then all of them are in the same boat. There is no good reason to kick a player right at the beginning of a dungeon. Doing so is nothing but dumb.

Merlin13KAGL

Not justifying it, by any means, but it sounds like they may have been doing a farming run, and wanting CP160 tradable gear as a consequence.

If such was the case, they could have had the decency to say so, however. It's not as if the run was going to take hours to complete either way.

Either way, it's a *** move, and they shouldn't have been queuing if that was their intent.

Vrienda

Sadly this is the reality of the massive gap between players. Low level/gear/skill players are made to feel like they're excluded from group content whilst higher skilled players brag about how easy everything is.

It might be time to squish everything down a little bit, make the maximum DPS one can pull closer to 20k and adjust the content to suit the new, lower average DPS whilst still allowing average players to pull 14k-15k.

DirkRavenclaw

Its not all about CP. Im now CP 189, started Dungeons just 3 Days ago. I had good groups, bad groups and even groups where i was the strongest, lol. I even done both Shadow of the Hist DLC Dungeons yestrday throught Random Dungeon Finder. And, died a lot in Ruins of Mazzatum. But, we had somebody in the Group who talked us throught it. I learned in 3 DAys Dungeons a lot about my Character and how i want to play. Try to queue for Banished Cells 1 or Fungal Grotto 1, they are quite easy, not really about mechaniks more like a public dungeon run like the vile manse

zaria

Rianai wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

ok I'll play...

So when you get chained by the shadow tormentors of Gaymne Bandu , what happens?

They die to aoe dots.

nordmarian wrote: »

Some normal dungeons lasts for like 1 hour if not more due to bad groups That mean lost time and resources. In good groups you can just go full dds and have fun and finish the whole dungeon in 15-20 minutes and that even on veteran, let alone normal.

A single "bad" player won't slow down a good group significantly, especially when compared to the time it takes to wait for replacement (that might be even worse) or to 3-man the dungeon. Hour long normal dungeon runs are usually the result of the whole group being unexperienced - and then all of them are in the same boat. There is no good reason to kick a player right at the beginning of a dungeon. Doing so is nothing but dumb.

This, an weak group don't like low level players.
An farming group who invite an random from finder do it as one more body is an benefit.
Farming for an cp160 is just vile and they don't know if he might keep it all himself, he might farm it too or being an idiot and leave just after last boss without sharing.

WhoSlappedThePie

Yeah, silly people! Right on! Don't kick them out mannnn.

O_LYKOS

Being kicked and having to deal with the timer is never fair. If you leave then yeah, be punished for it.

Normal dungeons can be a breeze. I often q as a tank just to get in faster but only on normal and even when I've had Ruins recently it wasn't exactly difficult. I believe the others were maybe level 40 and 2 below 20. No big deal. No major deaths and no wipes.

People who kick low levels on normal are either *** and need carrying themselves or just simply don't was to be held back or help others out.

D0PAMINE

I love running normals with low level players. Most of the time they play well, and I feel OP lol. I dont mind carrying players either. I wont ever kick someone based on level, only if they're stubborn and refuse to learn, or treat people like garbage.

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO

imo if you are a cp160+ player and you are gear farming in a normal level dungeon, you are obligated to take low level players through the dungeon when they show up. Normal dungeons are for beginner to mid level players. Pay it forward a little lol. Obviously leeches get kicked. And I'll get irritated with divas that aggro the boss while I'm explaining basic mechanics of the game.

I've run nICP about a dozen times the last week, and gotten several groups all <lvl 30, or with one cp100+ who didn't know mechanics. Nobody's had to be kicked, and every run was still less of a time commit than pugging vICP lol.

Morgul667

If you want a fast run go with your guild

If you go through group finder you can expect a lot of lowbies.

But seriously in normal... all you gotta do is dps like a little bit and youre fine. If youre tank or healer slot a dps bar and youre fine.

I can tank and dps on a low level reroll and go through pretty fast. And im not a great player

It is easy nowadays, absolutly no need to kick people based on their level

Artis

O_LYKOS wrote: »

People who kick low levels on normal are either *** and need carrying themselves or just simply don't was to be held back or help others out.

Never understood this logic. Are you saying this just because it's important for you to feel that you are superior to them? Because this statement is not true in general. Maybe they just don't want to carry those low levels?

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

imo if you are a cp160+ player and you are gear farming in a normal level dungeon, you are obligated to take low level players through the dungeon when they show up. Normal dungeons are for beginner to mid level players. Pay it forward a little lol. Obviously leeches get kicked. And I'll get irritated with divas that aggro the boss while I'm explaining basic mechanics of the game.

I've run nICP about a dozen times the last week, and gotten several groups all <lvl 30, or with one cp100+ who didn't know mechanics. Nobody's had to be kicked, and every run was still less of a time commit than pugging vICP lol.

And some more entitlement here. Why are they obligated to do anything? Are you paying them or something? I'll just assume that you aren't 100% serious. I mean, just read again what you said and think about it.

Morgul667 wrote: »

If you want a fast run go with your guild

If you go through group finder you can expect a lot of lowbies.

Running with the guild is not always realistic. Even in guild there are groups of players who only run with each other and won't take you unless they need a replacement and won't even reply to you when you're looking for a group.

Morgul667

Artis wrote: »

O_LYKOS wrote: »

People who kick low levels on normal are either *** and need carrying themselves or just simply don't was to be held back or help others out.

Never understood this logic. Are you saying this just because it's important for you to feel that you are superior to them? Because this statement is not true in general. Maybe they just don't want to carry those low levels?

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

imo if you are a cp160+ player and you are gear farming in a normal level dungeon, you are obligated to take low level players through the dungeon when they show up. Normal dungeons are for beginner to mid level players. Pay it forward a little lol. Obviously leeches get kicked. And I'll get irritated with divas that aggro the boss while I'm explaining basic mechanics of the game.

I've run nICP about a dozen times the last week, and gotten several groups all <lvl 30, or with one cp100+ who didn't know mechanics. Nobody's had to be kicked, and every run was still less of a time commit than pugging vICP lol.

And some more entitlement here. Why are they obligated to do anything? Are you paying them or something? I'll just assume that you aren't 100% serious. I mean, just read again what you said and think about it.

Morgul667 wrote: »

If you want a fast run go with your guild

If you go through group finder you can expect a lot of lowbies.

Running with the guild is not always realistic. Even in guild there are groups of players who only run with each other and won't take you unless they need a replacement and won't even reply to you when you're looking for a group.

Maybe time to change guild :-) Keep in mind we are talking normal runs here, not vet

But this aside : in most normal dungeons, having low levels with you is not an issue, provided you slot some dps skills, you can finish the dungeon in the blink of an eye.

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO

@Artis I guess I didn't make my position terribly clear. I'm cp295. I'm far past needing to lean on anyone to get me through a normal dungeon lol. But you do make a fair point. Obligated is certainly too strong a word. The crux of what I'm saying here is normal dungeons should be the domain of under 50s and people having fun and wanting to learn mechanics. Not gear farmers. If you don't want to help low levels, that's perfectly fair. Leaving the group is always an option.

And I may point out that anyone who is kicking low levels so they can get gear faster or similar reasons probably shouldn't be throwing around accusations of entitlement.

Artis

Morgul667 wrote: »

Maybe time to change guild :-) Keep in mind we are talking normal runs here, not vet

But this aside : in most normal dungeons, having low levels with you is not an issue, provided you slot some dps skills, you can finish the dungeon in the blink of an eye.

Maybe if you show me another guild that clears trials and has enough people who run 4 man dungeons, I will. In the mean time, I think I'll stick to the one where I can raid, because finding 3 people if I want to run pledges is easier than finding 11 people if I want to run trials. And the problem is not the guild here. It's a combination of players not having time/not being interested in running those dungeons and me being not likable, hence, not having friends who would reply to my message in guild chat/whispers or would message me to run with the (many groups form without even guild chat - through personal messages).

And you need to see the difference between "not an issue" and "wants to carry". Not everyone wants to carry, who are you to judge them? Yes there will be lowbies, but lowbies are different, too.

And don't get me wrong, I don't support kicking lowbies from normal. I'm purely talking about logic and entitlement here.

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

@Artis I guess I didn't make my position terribly clear. I'm cp295. I'm far past needing to lean on anyone to get me through a normal dungeon lol. But you do make a fair point. Obligated is certainly too strong a word. The crux of what I'm saying here is normal dungeons should be the domain of under 50s and people having fun and wanting to learn mechanics. Not gear farmers. If you don't want to help low levels, that's perfectly fair. Leaving the group is always an option.

And I may point out that anyone who is kicking low levels so they can get gear faster or similar reasons probably shouldn't be throwing around accusations of entitlement.

I completely agree. I would also like to note that kicking form a group is as viable of an option as leaving it yourself. For example, a group of 2-3 farmers who were queued while they were looking for more and they got it faster than they could find the 4th in guild/friends/zone. Why would you expect them all to leave if they got matched with a lowbie?

DirkRavenclaw

Hi, this one is now on cp250 or so. This one is still a kitten in a lot of Material, Tamriel trows at us. This one can run Dungeons and most public Dung alone. But, im always happy to help and go the extra mile, point out chests or Heavy Sacks. I can run sooo much content low lvl players struggle with, so, when i wanna farm i do it somewhere quiet. First thing i do, i look around for low lvls and ask to group. And 4 man Dungs. We had tonight a Lvl 20 Healer in Banished Cells 2 with us and he was awesome, keeped the whole group alive and kicking. The Low Lvl players of today are the badass Adventourers of tommorow.

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO

@Artis That doesn't strike you as a bit discourteous? The group finder is a public service. Nobody is queueing just to be kicked. Plus 2-3 farmers that know the dungeon shouldn't really be slowed down by one lowbie.

Artis

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

@Artis That doesn't strike you as a bit discourteous? The group finder is a public service. Nobody is queueing just to be kicked. Plus 2-3 farmers that know the dungeon shouldn't really be slowed down by one lowbie.

It's not about me. It might be discourteous, but no one is entitled to others' courtesy. Nobody is queuing just to be kicked, of course. But also not everybody is queuing to teach others maybe. Not everyone likes that.

Plus 2-3 farmers having a lowbie ARE slowed down compared to having a highbie in his place (or whatever you call it lol). But there are 3 things you are forgetting. 1. They still aren't obligated to carry if they don't want to. 2. If everyone is cp160 - there's a chance that a player who'd be instead of a lowbie would get some gear that those farmers need and maybe he doesn't need. 3. Lowbies very much can slow them down a lot sometimes. DPS checks are laughable (if those times are good dps, which again - maybe they aren't and need someone who pulls their weight), but there are some fights where you get punished for ignoring mechanics or bad positioning, which can lead to killing other players (like coh2 the one before last boss where you can oneshot other players).

Again, I understand what you're saying and how someone wouldn't mind carrying others or wouldn't mind having 25% less group loot when farming. But I also understand why others wouldn't want that. I'm questioning you to show you that your argument isn't based on anything but "I wouldn't mind", while there are reasons for others to mind. And they shouldn't be judged for playing how they want. You shouldn't expect everyone to be courteous, or you will be sad and post stuff like the OP. Save your nervous system and don't have expectations.That's all.

Morgul667

Artis wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

Maybe time to change guild :-) Keep in mind we are talking normal runs here, not vet

But this aside : in most normal dungeons, having low levels with you is not an issue, provided you slot some dps skills, you can finish the dungeon in the blink of an eye.

Maybe if you show me another guild that clears trials and has enough people who run 4 man dungeons, I will. In the mean time, I think I'll stick to the one where I can raid, because finding 3 people if I want to run pledges is easier than finding 11 people if I want to run trials. And the problem is not the guild here. It's a combination of players not having time/not being interested in running those dungeons and me being not likable, hence, not having friends who would reply to my message in guild chat/whispers or would message me to run with the (many groups form without even guild chat - through personal messages).

And you need to see the difference between "not an issue" and "wants to carry". Not everyone wants to carry, who are you to judge them? Yes there will be lowbies, but lowbies are different, too.

And don't get me wrong, I don't support kicking lowbies from normal. I'm purely talking about logic and entitlement here.

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

@Artis I guess I didn't make my position terribly clear. I'm cp295. I'm far past needing to lean on anyone to get me through a normal dungeon lol. But you do make a fair point. Obligated is certainly too strong a word. The crux of what I'm saying here is normal dungeons should be the domain of under 50s and people having fun and wanting to learn mechanics. Not gear farmers. If you don't want to help low levels, that's perfectly fair. Leaving the group is always an option.

And I may point out that anyone who is kicking low levels so they can get gear faster or similar reasons probably shouldn't be throwing around accusations of entitlement.

I completely agree. I would also like to note that kicking form a group is as viable of an option as leaving it yourself. For example, a group of 2-3 farmers who were queued while they were looking for more and they got it faster than they could find the 4th in guild/friends/zone. Why would you expect them all to leave if they got matched with a lowbie?

The low level guys chose a difficulty that is suitable for them while the high level guys chose a simple dungeon to rush and is willing to prevent low levels of their fun, for saving himself couple of minutes. It all comes down to whether this is fine or not (fyi you dont really carry pug in most normal dungeons in the sense that if you have a dps bar, the dungeon is very quick anyway)

spikesaurus

I've never kicked anyone & always at least tried to give them a chance.
Though if I get qued with someone who has selected all three DD + TANK + HEALER and is obviously not setup for anything other than DD..
Then I will immediately drop from group.

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO

@Artis I mean the discussion is about kicking low level characters because they're low level. Anyone can get anyone killed at Mezeluth period, so I don't really see the argument there. If dps demonstrates they can't get through the dps check in dsc 2, then yes kicking should be an option. That's why the vote to kick function should be there. Not so that high lvl players can muscle out low level players in their gear chase.

And my argument is not "I wouldn't mind". This thread has established that newer players are negatively affected by high level players kicking them out for gear runs. Something that the vote to kick system really wasn't intended for. I personally don't mind explaining mechanics or carrying lowbies, but as I said before there are ways to avoid doing that without rudely wasting someone else's time. If you're looking for dungeon buddies that can swap gear then group finder isn't the place to look because you are going to see a lot of low levels queuing for normal. I am sympathetic because I didn't have to deal with this frustration. I got to learn how to handle dungeons without the vote to kick system and never had to spend any time as an <160 cp player. I feel fairly confident that many players abusing this system have had the same experience.

That got sort of rambley and a little maudlin so tl;dr:
1. You don't need to carry anyone. You can leave.
2. If you are using the group finder and going through normal dungeons you'll get non-cp players with as much right to be there as you. Find a guild or make friends if that's a problem. You're wasting everyone's time including your own trying to assemble an elite farming team in group finder.
3. cp doesn't indicate knowledge of mechanics and non-cp doesn't indicate ignorance.

It's not about me. It might be discourteous, but no one is entitled to others' courtesy. Nobody is queuing just to be kicked, of course. But also not everybody is queuing to teach others maybe. Not everyone likes that.

My "don't kick low level players" stance is 100% basic "think of others" stuff. If someone thinks a 25% chance for loot is worth forcing a person with no say in the matter to re-queue is worth it, then that's the end of it. If high cp players want to treat dungeons like their own exclusive grinding kingdom they are enabled to do so. All the suggestions I've made can be completely disregarded so long as people value their own time and convenience above others. The hard truth of the matter is this behavior will continue as long as long as zos allows it anyway so whatever.

Mancombe_Nosehair

I have had a couple of interesting runs using group finder. A few days ago my alt had got to lvl 10 so I picked fungal 1 as a specific dungeon. The group contained two other low level players and a high level tank. After killing the first set of enemies the tank was furious for not running straight to the next batch of enemies, threw his toys out of the pram and left. We got another tank, this time low level, and we completed the dungeon without anyone dying, and quite quickly too.

Yesterday my lvl 37 healer got matched in another 1 dungeon with two lvl 11's and a 15 tank. We only wiped once as the guy couldn't really tank, but we did it pretty quickly. Being the highest level player at only 37 was quite fun. They gained some levels doing it too.

Artis

Morgul667 wrote: »

The low level guys chose a difficulty that is suitable for them while the high level guys chose a simple dungeon to rush and is willing to prevent low levels of their fun, for saving himself couple of minutes. It all comes down to whether this is fine or not (fyi you dont really carry pug in most normal dungeons in the sense that if you have a dps bar, the dungeon is very quick anyway)

Again you keep ignoring the fact that high level people can be there to farm gear and are doing multiple runs. Couple of minutes each run = extra run every several runs. Also, yes you carry in the sense that it could be quicker. It's like a job market in a way. People compete for a spot in a group, yeah sure it's doable with this person, but it's doable faster with another person, then it's obvious which one will be preferred.

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

@Artis I mean the discussion is about kicking low level characters because they're low level. Anyone can get anyone killed at Mezeluth period, so I don't really see the argument there. If dps demonstrates they can't get through the dps check in dsc 2, then yes kicking should be an option. That's why the vote to kick function should be there. Not so that high lvl players can muscle out low level players in their gear chase.

And my argument is not "I wouldn't mind". This thread has established that newer players are negatively affected by high level players kicking them out for gear runs. Something that the vote to kick system really wasn't intended for. I personally don't mind explaining mechanics or carrying lowbies, but as I said before there are ways to avoid doing that without rudely wasting someone else's time. If you're looking for dungeon buddies that can swap gear then group finder isn't the place to look because you are going to see a lot of low levels queuing for normal. I am sympathetic because I didn't have to deal with this frustration. I got to learn how to handle dungeons without the vote to kick system and never had to spend any time as an <160 cp player. I feel fairly confident that many players abusing this system have had the same experience.

That got sort of rambley and a little maudlin so tl;dr:
1. You don't need to carry anyone. You can leave.
2. If you are using the group finder and going through normal dungeons you'll get non-cp players with as much right to be there as you. Find a guild or make friends if that's a problem. You're wasting everyone's time including your own trying to assemble an elite farming team in group finder.
3. cp doesn't indicate knowledge of mechanics and non-cp doesn't indicate ignorance.

Yes, and as you should know by now, the lower the level the more probable it is that they will also be clueless. The correlation is there. And yes, it should be there so that players can refuse to play whoever they don't want to play with. For example, yes, high lvl players chasing gear. What's wrong with that? Got kicked by high players chasing gear? Queue again until you find players who don't care.

Yes, that is your argument. Vote-to-kick system was intended for kicking players the majority of group doesn't want to play with. If the majority is after gear - then yes it's intended they can kick a lowbie. Wasting someone's time? What about people queuing without having a clue how to perform and wasting someone's time? In the end, no one's time is more valuable than your own. And yes group finder IS the place if you couldn't find a full group of 4. Then what else what they do not to waste their time?

tl;dr.

1. Or you can kick them. Both are fair game. No one has to play with you and you don't have to play with anyone.
2. Yes, and you have equal rights to kick each other as well. Not everyone can make friends. Not everyone has a guild that will farm gear or not everyone will be able to find 3 more people in guilds at any given point of time. In that case - YES they will use group finder. No, no one cares about the team being elite. The argument was about everyone being cp160 because that means more loot.
3. Sure, no one was arguing about it. However, the correlation is usually there, especially low CP (low level can have high cp lol). Also, no matter how good I know mechanics, the numbers I pull on my low level characters are, well, low .

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

My "don't kick low level players" stance is 100% basic "think of others" stuff. If someone thinks a 25% chance for loot is worth forcing a person with no say in the matter to re-queue is worth it, then that's the end of it. If high cp players want to treat dungeons like their own exclusive grinding kingdom they are enabled to do so. All the suggestions I've made can be completely disregarded so long as people value their own time and convenience above others. The hard truth of the matter is this behavior will continue as long as long as zos allows it anyway so whatever.

Yep, as I'm saying - your argument is "I wouldn't mind". Think of others is good and all, but that's something everyone should follow, not expect from others. No one is entitled to others thinking about him. And yes, as you understand, 25% more loot (meaning saving 25% of your own time) is more valuable than not wasting 15 mins of somebody who you will never see again. OF course it will continue. I'm just explaining why and why it's not wrong.

The time wasting can be fixed by adding something like - "if you're kicked within 1 min, then the 15min timer is removed". However, in this case you won't be punishing people who will just port in and insult everyone right away. Maybe, could a button like "kick without prejudice" and if you're kicked that way - then you got no timer, and if you're just kicked (like for bad performance), then you do. Idk. What would make you and other SJWs happy? Just forcing players to play with others and pretend it's okay?

p.s. And yeah personally I don't do that, because I don't even farm. But if I did and couldnt' find a full group of 4 - I would use dungeon finder because that would mean I could at least start looting instead of waiting and trying to get a group together.

Bowdowntogreatness

Zoliru wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Never heard of that, sounds very weird,
some tries to kick below level 30 in the normal dlc ones, nothing else.
No other reason fake tank / healer or many wipes?

Or that you queued for veteran instead ?
Has done that many times. Sometimes it works out well

Nope not even got to the 1st trash mob... and people were talking to kick me because no CP... and then i got kicked....

then i requoed and got the same group -.- so i got kicked again Instantly and also got a 15 min wait time for it..... thx devs...

also im a dps quoing as a DPS sooo.....

and it IS Normal Dung...... veteran stuff arent even unlocked for me....

Now that's just *** up u got kicked from the group. You get qued with them again and they kick you out a second time is even more *** up.

Bowdowntogreatness

m12d12_ESO wrote: »

[It depends on the dungeon though. I am not carrying no low level 100 through vet mazzatun.]

This thread is about "Normal" runs not Vet.

Kicking people out for not having cp on a 'Normal' run is rude and un-called for. Alot of this I blame on newer players, especially younger ones, that have quick leveled up and havent built a sense of community yet.

I agree b/c having ppl of differ levels and classes can still have a great gaming experience. You never know what somebody can contribute to the group.

Morgul667

Artis wrote: »

Again you keep ignoring the fact that high level people can be there to farm gear and are doing multiple runs. Couple of minutes each run = extra run every several runs. Also, yes you carry in the sense that it could be quicker. It's like a job market in a way. People compete for a spot in a group, yeah sure it's doable with this person, but it's doable faster with another person, then it's obvious which one will be preferred.

When a high level runs a dungeon quickly in normal mode he should be prepared to find people without CP. Otherwise, it is like going to the doctor and raging about meeting other patients or a nurse.

The low level is using appropriate level dungeon, he is in the right place but will be kicked and prevented of his fun so the high level guy can save a few minutes.

That is as selfish as it can get and is not fine in my book.

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO

@Artis

Again you keep ignoring the fact that high level people can be there to farm gear and are doing multiple runs. Couple of minutes each run = extra run every several runs. Also, yes you carry in the sense that it could be quicker. It's like a job market in a way. People compete for a spot in a group, yeah sure it's doable with this person, but it's doable faster with another person, then it's obvious which one will be preferred.

You know what? High cp players can farm in vet dungeons, where there are no <50s and they get purple gear to boot. win. If they are worried about a couple extra minutes each run then they should stop using the group finder all together, because all that's going to do is cause delays. They can maybe shave off minutes of their own time, but they're selfishly adding to other peoples'.

Pugging for normal dungeons is not like the job market. That's completely absurd. There are no leaderboards. There's no resume review or interview. Randos wait in line for spots in groups, they don't compete for them. PvE guilds or trial runs are probably the only place you should be seeing an intensive vetting process.

Yes, and as you should know by now, the lower the level the more probable it is that they will also be clueless. The correlation is there. And yes, it should be there so that players can refuse to play whoever they don't want to play with. For example, yes, high lvl players chasing gear. What's wrong with that? Got kicked by high players chasing gear? Queue again until you find players who don't care.

The issue is that sort of behavior is annoying and disruptive. It's a misuse of the group finder. Who wants to spend all their time in a queue?

Yes, that is your argument. Vote-to-kick system was intended for kicking players the majority of group doesn't want to play with. If the majority is after gear - then yes it's intended they can kick a lowbie. Wasting someone's time? What about people queuing without having a clue how to perform and wasting someone's time? In the end, no one's time is more valuable than your own. And yes group finder IS the place if you couldn't find a full group of 4. Then what else what they do not to waste their time?

Yep, as I'm saying - your argument is "I wouldn't mind". Think of others is good and all, but that's something everyone should follow, not expect from others. No one is entitled to others thinking about him. And yes, as you understand, 25% more loot (meaning saving 25% of your own time) is more valuable than not wasting 15 mins of somebody who you will never see again. OF course it will continue. I'm just explaining why and why it's not wrong.

This is why we aren't going to come to an agreement. We have fundamentally different views on acceptable ways to treat your fellow human beings. You act like re-queuing is a trivial thing. People who are kicked aren't placed at the front of the queue. They have to wait for a position again, and once they get it they might just end up kicked a 2nd time lol.

No, no one cares about the team being elite. The argument was about everyone being cp160 because that means more loot.

Okay scenario:
You queue into your dungeon. Someone else is looking for the same set you are. What are the chances now you're going to get your items? And I mean hey you can try to kick them, but the chances of that passing are slim. After all why should they have to leave because you're looking for items. You're probably just gonna come off as an a-hole.

What would make you and other SJWs happy? Just forcing players to play with others and pretend it's okay?

lmao.... alright. I guess this is my indicator that this discussion is going nowhere fast.

I'm exhausted. I feel like I'm typing the same thing over and over again. I'm not putting a gun to anyone's head and demanding they carry a low level player through a dungeon. I'm saying normal dungeons should be where they can practice mechanics and understand how to perform their roles. There are spaces for high level players that low levels don't have access to. Kicking low levels because "muh loot" is scummy behavior, and is placing an unfair burden on newcomers. This game is not only for one type of player.

Morgul667

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

I'm saying normal dungeons should be where they can practice mechanics and understand how to perform their roles. There are spaces for high level players that low levels don't have access to. Kicking low levels because "muh loot" is scummy behavior, and is placing an unfair burden on newcomers. This game is not only for one type of player.

This pretty much sums it up

Artis

Morgul667 wrote: »

When a high level runs a dungeon quickly in normal mode he should be prepared to find people without CP. Otherwise, it is like going to the doctor and raging about meeting other patients or a nurse.

The low level is using appropriate level dungeon, he is in the right place but will be kicked and prevented of his fun so the high level guy can save a few minutes.

That is as selfish as it can get and is not fine in my book.

You need to keep your morals to yourself and not expect that other people will follow them. Some people don't see anything wrong with being selfish, especially in a computer game.

Also, the logic of your first paragraph works two ways. When ANY player uses dungeon finder he should be prepared to find people who don't want to play with him. And it doesn't even matter WHY one can get kicked.

@theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO

You know what? High cp players can farm in vet dungeons, where there are no <50s and they get purple gear to boot. win. If they are worried about a couple extra minutes each run then they should stop using the group finder all together, because all that's going to do is cause delays. They can maybe shave off minutes of their own time, but they're selfishly adding to other peoples'.

Pugging for normal dungeons is not like the job market. That's completely absurd. There are no leaderboards. There's no resume review or interview. Randos wait in line for spots in groups, they don't compete for them. PvE guilds or trial runs are probably the only place you should be seeing an intensive vetting process.

You know what? High cp players are allowed to choose where to farm and who to farm with. Purple gear - win? No, normal dungeons are not extra minutes - they can be done noticeably faster. They can stop using group finder if they have a full group already. If they don't - they might use group finder and start like that. I believe, I said it 3 times already. Are you saying it's better for them to just not farm at all if they don't have a full group? How is that getting them closer to their goal? Yes they are adding to other people's time. That sounds like those people's problem, no?

And how about phrasing it like this - those other people can get carried/complete faster than if they ran with the full group of other lowbies, but they are selfishly making other people spend more time?

Yes, everything where you have supply and demand is like a market. Since in this case it's people - it's like the job market. There are no leaderboards etc, sure. But there are people choosing who to play with. And they can still kick you if they believe they can get a better option soon. I mean, it's not different than PvE guilds. It's like comparing mcdonald's getting their cashiers with some corporation requiring degrees and work experience and such. Sure -the standards are different, but the idea is still the same. No one is forced to settle.

The issue is that sort of behavior is annoying and disruptive. It's a misuse of the group finder. Who wants to spend all their time in a queue?

Oh it's annoying? okay, there's a lot of things that annoy me, too. Doesn't mean they need to be changed. Weren't you just talking about selfishness just a few lines above? For sure, no one wants to spend all their time in queue. But you've already solved this problem yourself. Don't want to spend time in queue? Get a group and run with it. Don't rely on DF. This applies to both high and low levels.

This is why we aren't going to come to an agreement. We have fundamentally different views on acceptable ways to treat your fellow human beings. You act like re-queuing is a trivial thing. People who are kicked aren't placed at the front of the queue. They have to wait for a position again, and once they get it they might just end up kicked a 2nd time lol.

No, we won't come to an agreement because you don't read what I write. I already said couple of times, that I'm not arguing about my point of view. I'm answering to what you're saying with simple logic. But I see you care about feelings.

Yeah, it's not a big deal. Everyone was there. When I was level guess what I did? I didn't impose myself on other players without their consent. I would never hide if I didn't know the dungeon etc. And if I get kicked? Oh well. Keep getting stronger and then you won't get kicked. And then you will be actually valuable to the group. I don't see how this is a wrong way to treat human beings as opposed to the entitled attitude that no one should refuse to play with me.

Consider a scenario 1:
Dungeon starts. I say that I've never ran it before. I get kicked.

Is it annoying? Yes. But did they do anything wrong? No.

Okay scenario:
You queue into your dungeon. Someone else is looking for the same set you are. What are the chances now you're going to get your items? And I mean hey you can try to kick them, but the chances of that passing are slim. After all why should they have to leave because you're looking for items. You're probably just gonna come off as an a-hole.

Well, and if I'm in a group with other 2 and we just had to queue because we couldn't find the 4th - we can easily kick him. But answering your queston - my chances only increase in case that person doesn't need the same particular piece + we can trade duplicates. Worst case scenario - my chances don't change, because everyone has their own loot.

I'm exhausted. I feel like I'm typing the same thing over and over again. I'm not putting a gun to anyone's head and demanding they carry a low level player through a dungeon. I'm saying normal dungeons should be where they can practice mechanics and understand how to perform their roles. There are spaces for high level players that low levels don't have access to. Kicking low levels because "muh loot" is scummy behavior, and is placing an unfair burden on newcomers. This game is not only for one type of player.

Nah, that's pretty much what you're doing. You're trying to shame people into playing the way you think the game should be played. You're calling them a-holes, you're calling them selfish, you don't support the right to choose. You're saying normal dungeons should be that? Well, that's just like your opinion man. And what you're describing doesn't describe dungeons, it describes how other players should play there. That's not up to you to decide. And I think normal dungeons should be what they are - easy dungeons, first step in progress for players to achieve on their way to get strong (or their last step of that way if all they care about is the story or loot).

There is no unfair burden on newcomers. Not to mention, that everyone was once a newcomer. People want to be matched with their equals (or someone higher). That's just how people want to associate with each other. There are multiple studies about this and it works like that pretty much everywhere on a big scale. Dating. Friendships. Sports teams. etc. This is no different. ZoS didn't give players an option to choose level (or item level) brackets, so they could queue together with their equals, because they were afraid that certain brackets would be less popular and all that. Well, not everyone is okay with that and what you see is completely natural.

IF you want to say how you think dungeons should be - go ahead and rephrase what you said. You aren't in the position to say how people should play there.