Thoughts from a new PvP player

Remag_Div

So like many I'm sure I decided to attempt PvP during this Midyear Mayhem event. I've been playing ESO since PC beta (with long breaks here and there) but I've always been on the PvE side of things. Not because I don't like PvP, but because after taking long breaks I always had to play catch up in terms of finishing the PvE content and this game has a ton of PvE content. I'm at the point where I've done pretty much everything when it comes to solo play so I thought it was a perfect time to jump in and try something different.

Another thing that gave me pause from PvP'ing was my build / gear. It's more for PvE and my gear is only beginner stuff (currently wearing a mix of Julianos and Seducer as a DPS Magplar). I'm only 390 CP, too. Either way, I decided I'd be designated to backing up zergs and trying to pick people off and land my destro ultimate as much as possible to catch other zergs by surprise.

After two days my very basic initial impressions on Cyrodiil is that it's pretty fun! I assume there's way more people playing with the event, though. Some of the best battles have been when all three factions are fighting over a single keep. Everything is just so chaotic and it truly feels like a large scale battlefield. However, there's a few things that, to me, are keeping this from greatness. I'm sure these are things that have been discussed to death for the past 3 years amongst the avid PvP fanbase.

- The game engine can't seem to handle what the developers' scope for Cyrodiil is

This is probably the biggest shame in this. Now, I assume the event causes way more lag, latency, and FPS issues than normal, but it's still disappointing to see how bad it is. I have a pretty beefy gaming PC and I muster around 20-30 FPS during battles and usually even lower than that when lots of flashy abilities are on screen (more about this later). My latency also skyrockets to 250+ which really makes the game feel unresponsive. The entire time I'm fighting I just think to myself, "My god, would this be amazing if it were a stable 60fps and a latency of around 100?" Unfortunately, this comes down to the skeleton of the game and how it's made, and I don't see this ever really improving.

- Too many flashy abilities and AoE makes things VERY confusing

This complaint may be more since I'm a new player and it's only really bothersome during large scale battles but there are some points where my screen is just lit up with crazy abilities, DOTs, and AoE spam that it's impossible to make sense of it all. This is probably a major factor in the lag department, too.

- The give and take of capturing points can become tiresome

I have to admit, it's fun to capture and defend, but after awhile it can become a bit mentally draining to keep track of what keep or resource needs help where and the constant back and forth nature of the mode can become a bit overwhelming, almost to the point of things becoming pointless. Maybe because I'm older but I have to take breaks every few hours because I just can't handle the constant nature of the mode!

- Gear seems too beneficial, at least in the CP Campaign

This is probably more of a me thing but many a times if I do square off against a single foe there are times where I die in literally a second or two. Again, I'm 390 CP with Julianos / Seducer that's more geared towards PvE so if I face a 630 CP player with a fully decked out PvP build I have to expect to get demolished, but man is it demoralizing to get smashed like that. In a way I think this makes newer players less likely to stick around once the event is over. The barrier to entry seems pretty high if you want to hold your own in a fight. Another thing I don't get: Why are the best PvP sets acquired in PvE? This makes little sense to me.

--

Overall though, I have been enjoying my time in Cyrodiil. What I really want to try doing now is acquiring some good PvP gear and build and practice and see if I can start winning fights more often. It's fun to zerg but also boring if you have to rely on it. I think the biggest disappoint just stems from the fact that the game engine cannot keep up with the amount of players so the lag and unresponsiveness really dampens what could potentially be an amazing PvP experience. I have not tried Battlegrounds yet either but since that's a smaller focused PvP arena setting I feel I would get destroyed in there just the same, but with the mode having no CP it might play out differently.

Malic

Remag_Div wrote: »

- The game engine can't seem to handle what the developers' scope for Cyrodiil is

This is probably the biggest shame in this. Now, I assume the event causes way more lag, latency, and FPS issues than normal, but it's still disappointing to see how bad it is. I have a pretty beefy gaming PC and I muster around 20-30 FPS during battles and usually even lower than that when lots of flashy abilities are on screen (more about this later). My latency also skyrockets to 250+ which really makes the game feel unresponsive. The entire time I'm fighting I just think to myself, "My god, would this be amazing if it were a stable 60fps and a latency of around 100?" Unfortunately, this comes down to the skeleton of the game and how it's made, and I don't see this ever really improving.

Part of the problem is, we've had this issue for years to varying degree's. Everyone knows it too, its been discussed to death. Yet given this fact, what we dont have is a meaningful change in the actual game play mechanic.

Yes they put in IC, yes they put in BG however neither spoke to the fundamental issue of large groups in one place taxing the servers. So we always had that, then they implemented the CP system. This created EVEN MORE server load as every CP bonus has to be calculated for every player.

So what we have is a company who knew prior there was a problem with servers, I mean we have had lag reports for literally years. They implemented a system that taxed the servers more. So during this time the CP system not only has a negative impact on the servers but the actual game play goes in the can too. Reports all over the forums about low CP players getting rolled on and on. Only recently has this been addressed in a meaningful way, but thats not the point.

The point is Zos has demonstrated a clear pattern. They continue to implement systems that exacerbate long standing problem but on top of that create an event that will amplify the problem even more due to volume of player and proximity.

So the logical objective player has to ask why? Why would a company do that? Apathy? I mean they have a lot of players and are making money. Lack of skill? Do they not know what they are doing?

Thats the part that is most troubling, what possible conclusion could someone come to other than ZOS doesnt know what they are doing and or dont know how to fix the problems they created?

sadownik

@Malic i got this game for pvp after trying it in pc beta and let me tell you game run better at first. Sure there were crashes even rollbacks but they were very occasional for me. Now i see what everyone does, technical problems all around with the loading screens at the top.

Malic

sadownik wrote: »

@Malic i got this game for pvp after trying it in pc beta and let me tell you game run better at first. Sure there were crashes even rollbacks but they were very occasional for me. Now i see what everyone does, technical problems all around with the loading screens at the top.

ive been playing since beta. I used to run with a very organized PVP group that has since moved on. I log on two times a week now to solo around.

Its still a fun game to play, outside of PVP really.

geonsocal

not sure why I find these pvp beginner threads so interesting - nostalgia?

Edit: a nice AvAvA battle with at least 30+ on each side is most definitely the bee's knees (whatever that means)...

performance might suffer a bit - but, a whole heck of a lot of fun...particularly with durable characters and cp...

olsborg

Gear seems too beneficial? ....Agreed. Shame this game also became all about itemization. best pvp memories I have was back in the day when the sets you had available gave base stats and a few niche bonuses here and there, skill and your hotbars was what made you...you. Not the sets you were wearing, like now.

IcyDeadPeople

Remag_Div wrote: »

This is probably more of a me thing but many a times if I do square off against a single foe there are times where I die in literally a second or two. Again, I'm 390 CP with Julianos / Seducer that's more geared towards PvE so if I face a 630 CP player with a fully decked out PvP build I have to expect to get demolished, but man is it demoralizing to get smashed like that.

Julianos and seducer can be quite good in PVP, but you need some way to mitigate damage incoming. Either large shields (sorc class shield, bastion or high health for templar shield), blocking (sturdy trait, S&B, Shadow Ward), dodge rolling frequently (well-fitted trait, tumbling passive, stam recovery), very high crit resistence (impen trait, impregnable set), very high phys/spell resistance (heavy armor). If you are in 7/7 light divines without large shields you can get facerolled quickly from enemy crits.

Also you can improve a lot if you get a friend with some PVP experience to help you duel over and over a bit. You can learn this way to manage your resources, adjust your gear and skills to make sure you have some damage mitigation, also you need some way to stun enemy players, debuff them and hit them with some kind of burst dps combo.

Remag_Div wrote: »

Another thing I don't get: Why are the best PvP sets acquired in PvE? This makes little sense to me.

Yes a lot of players feel the same way. It would be nice if we could gear up our PVP builds without having to spend months in PVE running the same dungeon over and over.

zyk

I miss the days of 2.1 and 2.2 (IC and Orsinium) when most sets had not been updated to the max level and therefore crafted armor was extremely competitive.

Since 2.3, itemization has been pure cheese: VD, Fasalla's, Viper, Selene, and on and on and on.

What's worse is that @ZOS_BrianWheeler has described how proc sets negatively impact performance.

The ultimate issue is that this is a PVE focused game with an ideological goal to have one set of rules for both PVP and PVE. I think it's impossible to design optimized gameplay for both 12 player instances and open world AvA with hundreds of players. So PVP gets the short end of the stick.

The engine and server are less of a problem than people think. The existing tech would work well if gameplay was redesigned so players are unable to overwhelm the server. But this can't happen because of what I wrote in the paragraph above.

The best thing that could happen to Cyrodiil would be for ZOS to spin it off as its own game with its own business model, but I can't see that happening.

It's disappointing because this game has the potential to be one of the best multiplayer experiences in gaming if ZOS had the will to make it so.

Remag_Div

Malic wrote: »

Yes they put in IC, yes they put in BG however neither spoke to the fundamental issue of large groups in one place taxing the servers. So we always had that, then they implemented the CP system. This created EVEN MORE server load as every CP bonus has to be calculated for every player.

sadownik wrote: »

@Malic i got this game for pvp after trying it in pc beta and let me tell you game run better at first. Sure there were crashes even rollbacks but they were very occasional for me. Now i see what everyone does, technical problems all around with the loading screens at the top.

So all the CP abilities which causes huge bright effects on screen are the major cause of the lag. Makes perfect sense. Like I said, there were moments where so many flashy abilities were on screen at once my game turns into a slideshow and I have no idea what's going on, it's just way too confusing to make sense of it all so I end up just backing away and not engaging anything until it's over.

Whatever happened to that test ZOS did awhile back when they changed the main campaign to have no CP for a week to test lag? Did they ever make an official announcement on their findings? Are the no CP campaigns that much better in the latency department?

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Julianos and seducer can be quite good in PVP, but you need some way to mitigate damage incoming. Either large shields (sorc class shield, bastion or high health for templar shield), blocking (sturdy trait, S&B, Shadow Ward), dodge rolling frequently (well-fitted trait, tumbling passive, stam recovery), very high crit resistence (impen trait, impregnable set), very high phys/spell resistance (heavy armor). If you are in 7/7 light divines without large shields you can get facerolled quickly from enemy crits.

Yup, my issue right now is I'm running 5 light, 1 medium, 1 heavy with all Divines and double staves. I assume having all Impenetrable armor is the first thing you should have when you PvP in this. This is why if I want to continue to PvP I need to learn and research what gear to acquire with the proper stats as a Magplar.

Also you can improve a lot if you get a friend with some PVP experience to help you duel over and over a bit. You can learn this way to manage your resources, adjust your gear and skills to make sure you have some damage mitigation, also you need some way to stun enemy players, debuff them and hit them with some kind of burst dps combo.

The bolded is my other issue. I don't have any abilities to stun players currently. Whenever I die, the enemy player always seems to CC me first and proceed to pummel me with one or two massive damage abilities. I have things like Reflective Light and Biting Jabs with some AoE stuff but nothing to lock a player down.

GeorgeBlack

This guy gets it. I agree with all the points you made.

Xsorus

Remag_Div wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

Yes they put in IC, yes they put in BG however neither spoke to the fundamental issue of large groups in one place taxing the servers. So we always had that, then they implemented the CP system. This created EVEN MORE server load as every CP bonus has to be calculated for every player.

sadownik wrote: »

@Malic i got this game for pvp after trying it in pc beta and let me tell you game run better at first. Sure there were crashes even rollbacks but they were very occasional for me. Now i see what everyone does, technical problems all around with the loading screens at the top.

So all the CP abilities which causes huge bright effects on screen are the major cause of the lag. Makes perfect sense. Like I said, there were moments where so many flashy abilities were on screen at once my game turns into a slideshow and I have no idea what's going on, it's just way too confusing to make sense of it all so I end up just backing away and not engaging anything until it's over.

Whatever happened to that test ZOS did awhile back when they changed the main campaign to have no CP for a week to test lag? Did they ever make an official announcement on their findings? Are the no CP campaigns that much better in the latency department?

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Julianos and seducer can be quite good in PVP, but you need some way to mitigate damage incoming. Either large shields (sorc class shield, bastion or high health for templar shield), blocking (sturdy trait, S&B, Shadow Ward), dodge rolling frequently (well-fitted trait, tumbling passive, stam recovery), very high crit resistence (impen trait, impregnable set), very high phys/spell resistance (heavy armor). If you are in 7/7 light divines without large shields you can get facerolled quickly from enemy crits.

Yup, my issue right now is I'm running 5 light, 1 medium, 1 heavy with all Divines and double staves. I assume having all Impenetrable armor is the first thing you should have when you PvP in this. This is why if I want to continue to PvP I need to learn and research what gear to acquire with the proper stats as a Magplar.

Also you can improve a lot if you get a friend with some PVP experience to help you duel over and over a bit. You can learn this way to manage your resources, adjust your gear and skills to make sure you have some damage mitigation, also you need some way to stun enemy players, debuff them and hit them with some kind of burst dps combo.

The bolded is my other issue. I don't have any abilities to stun players currently. Whenever I die, the enemy player always seems to CC me first and proceed to pummel me with one or two massive damage abilities. I have things like Reflective Light and Biting Jabs with some AoE stuff but nothing to lock a player down.

Your biggest issue in PvP is summed up right here

Etaniel

To me it makes sense that the best PvP gear is obtained in PvE. Can you imagine joining the game as anew player, and not being able to farm PvP gear because everyone destroys you since they've been here forever and are decked out?
At least in this scenario you can start PvP without the gear drawback if you prepare in PvE.

Biro123

Etaniel wrote: »

To me it makes sense that the best PvP gear is obtained in PvE. Can you imagine joining the game as anew player, and not being able to farm PvP gear because everyone destroys you since they've been here forever and are decked out?
At least in this scenario you can start PvP without the gear drawback if you prepare in PvE.

That's a good point, although I personally think that the best PvP gear should be crafted with your secondary set (ie the bit with jewels) not being as strong as the crafted bits in PvP, but should come from pvp and be better than most pve options at PvP.

I guess a simple (but drastic) change to achieve this would be to simply remove impen from all dropped gear. Make it a crafted-only trait?

NightbladeMechanics

Biro123 wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

To me it makes sense that the best PvP gear is obtained in PvE. Can you imagine joining the game as anew player, and not being able to farm PvP gear because everyone destroys you since they've been here forever and are decked out?
At least in this scenario you can start PvP without the gear drawback if you prepare in PvE.

That's a good point, although I personally think that the best PvP gear should be crafted with your secondary set (ie the bit with jewels) not being as strong as the crafted bits in PvP, but should come from pvp and be better than most pve options at PvP.

I agree with this design philosophy wholeheartedly.

Biro123 wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

To me it makes sense that the best PvP gear is obtained in PvE. Can you imagine joining the game as anew player, and not being able to farm PvP gear because everyone destroys you since they've been here forever and are decked out?
At least in this scenario you can start PvP without the gear drawback if you prepare in PvE.

I guess a simple (but drastic) change to achieve this would be to simply remove impen from all dropped gear. Make it a crafted-only trait?

This is...interesting. Eh, I feel like we'd lose a lot of build diversity. I'd prefer a less drastic albeit less simple change, if any is warranted.

Kostic

Remag_Div wrote: »

- The game engine can't seem to handle what the developers' scope for Cyrodiil is

From what I've noticed the game ran much more smoothly before they implemented anti bot and anti cheat code. If you look at vids from the 1.6 days you'll see that big battles have much less lag.

Ffastyl

Remag_Div wrote: »

Whatever happened to that test ZOS did awhile back when they changed the main campaign to have no CP for a week to test lag? Did they ever make an official announcement on their findings? Are the no CP campaigns that much better in the latency department?

The No CP campaigns are better in the latency department, significantly so. But the servers still buckle faction v faction piles on one keep. Large scale battles that do not exceed 300 players on location run smoothly on my GTX970, but latency may take a hit. However, it also does not exceed 300, so all is playable. Some large scale battles stay at 90 ping, my guess being less flashy abilities. ZOS is addressing this in the next update, but we'll see the fix's efficacy.

Nivellan

The biggest issue is you can't even tell what your latency is. The ZOS approved UI latency meter doesn't even work. It will show anywhere in the 100-200ms area regardless of if your skills go of seamlessly or 3 seconds after you press the button. Even when the server completely shuts down and turns into a powerpoint presentation it won't show 999+ until well after you're already feeling the effects.

tinythinker

olsborg wrote: »

Gear seems too beneficial? ....Agreed. Shame this game also became all about itemization. best pvp memories I have was back in the day when the sets you had available gave base stats and a few niche bonuses here and there, skill and your hotbars was what made you...you. Not the sets you were wearing, like now.

Agreed, plus it felt like there was more counterplay for everyone so you could learn faster and improve.

Remag_Div

I'm trying out a variation of this build since Shacklebreaker is crafted: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/357169/zweihandplar-2h-magicka-templar-pvp-build/p2

It's more for duels and BG's but I already notice I can survive a bit longer but even with all Impen I still die within seconds to some players.