Wizards reposte needs to be toned down i feel.

GrumpyDuckling

Rianai wrote: »

WR is not a counter to those dmg buffs. It is a counter to dmg in general. Is overall dmg too high? That's debateable, but even if would be the case, one single set shouldn't outperform other defensive sets like WR does.

And please stop those comparisons with dmg buffs. As already mentioned, every source of those buffs allow easy 100% uptime. You are supposed to be able to keep those buffs up permanently. It is different with Minor Maim. Nothing else grants as high Minor Maim uptime as WR. It is not even close. Again, one thing shouldn't outperform all other options.

Who says the game is "supposed" to be played with permanent damage buffs? Do you not understand how counters work? Why should damage buffs be vastly better and more accessible than maim/debuffs?

Destyran

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

WR is not a counter to those dmg buffs. It is a counter to dmg in general. Is overall dmg too high? That's debateable, but even if would be the case, one single set shouldn't outperform other defensive sets like WR does.

And please stop those comparisons with dmg buffs. As already mentioned, every source of those buffs allow easy 100% uptime. You are supposed to be able to keep those buffs up permanently. It is different with Minor Maim. Nothing else grants as high Minor Maim uptime as WR. It is not even close. Again, one thing shouldn't outperform all other options.

Who says the game is "supposed" to be played with permanent damage buffs? Do you not understand how counters work? Why should damage buffs be vastly better and more accessible than maim/debuffs?

Look mate there are small groups of 6 with 35-40k health each with *** heals running this set its broken just admit your op set is broken stop defending it ot needs a fine tune

IxskullzxI

Yes, please, let's nerf more defensive options. God forbid you're allowed to defend yourself in this game.

leepalmer95

Destyran wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

WR is not a counter to those dmg buffs. It is a counter to dmg in general. Is overall dmg too high? That's debateable, but even if would be the case, one single set shouldn't outperform other defensive sets like WR does.

And please stop those comparisons with dmg buffs. As already mentioned, every source of those buffs allow easy 100% uptime. You are supposed to be able to keep those buffs up permanently. It is different with Minor Maim. Nothing else grants as high Minor Maim uptime as WR. It is not even close. Again, one thing shouldn't outperform all other options.

Who says the game is "supposed" to be played with permanent damage buffs? Do you not understand how counters work? Why should damage buffs be vastly better and more accessible than maim/debuffs?

Look mate there are small groups of 6 with 35-40k health each with *** heals running this set its broken just admit your op set is broken stop defending it ot needs a fine tune

They're not tanky because of this set, they're tanky becaus they're tanks.

The set is fine.

Destyran

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Destyran wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

WR is not a counter to those dmg buffs. It is a counter to dmg in general. Is overall dmg too high? That's debateable, but even if would be the case, one single set shouldn't outperform other defensive sets like WR does.

And please stop those comparisons with dmg buffs. As already mentioned, every source of those buffs allow easy 100% uptime. You are supposed to be able to keep those buffs up permanently. It is different with Minor Maim. Nothing else grants as high Minor Maim uptime as WR. It is not even close. Again, one thing shouldn't outperform all other options.

Who says the game is "supposed" to be played with permanent damage buffs? Do you not understand how counters work? Why should damage buffs be vastly better and more accessible than maim/debuffs?

Look mate there are small groups of 6 with 35-40k health each with *** heals running this set its broken just admit your op set is broken stop defending it ot needs a fine tune

They're not tanky because of this set, they're tanky becaus they're tanks.

The set is fine.

Im wearing it and its like heavy armour i can 1vX with ease. Im using it its unbalanced. So is everyone in cyrodill NA

GrumpyDuckling

Destyran wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

WR is not a counter to those dmg buffs. It is a counter to dmg in general. Is overall dmg too high? That's debateable, but even if would be the case, one single set shouldn't outperform other defensive sets like WR does.

And please stop those comparisons with dmg buffs. As already mentioned, every source of those buffs allow easy 100% uptime. You are supposed to be able to keep those buffs up permanently. It is different with Minor Maim. Nothing else grants as high Minor Maim uptime as WR. It is not even close. Again, one thing shouldn't outperform all other options.

Who says the game is "supposed" to be played with permanent damage buffs? Do you not understand how counters work? Why should damage buffs be vastly better and more accessible than maim/debuffs?

Look mate there are small groups of 6 with 35-40k health each with *** heals running this set its broken just admit your op set is broken stop defending it ot needs a fine tune

How is it "broken?" Do you still not understand that it is a counter to damage buffs?

And your group of 6 with 35-40k health is a poor example. That group could all wear a combination of sets like Reactive, Pirate Skeleton, Armor Master, Troll King + Beekeeper + Orgnum's, etc. and you would have similar results.

Are you just upset that you're not two-shotting enemies?

Rianai

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

WR is not a counter to those dmg buffs. It is a counter to dmg in general. Is overall dmg too high? That's debateable, but even if would be the case, one single set shouldn't outperform other defensive sets like WR does.

And please stop those comparisons with dmg buffs. As already mentioned, every source of those buffs allow easy 100% uptime. You are supposed to be able to keep those buffs up permanently. It is different with Minor Maim. Nothing else grants as high Minor Maim uptime as WR. It is not even close. Again, one thing shouldn't outperform all other options.

Who says the game is "supposed" to be played with permanent damage buffs? Do you not understand how counters work? Why should damage buffs be vastly better and more accessible than maim/debuffs?

If you weren't supposed to play with permanent dmg buffs, access to those buffs would be much more limited (eg potions not granting longer duration than cd). And no, Minor Maim is not a counter to dmg buffs. It is a counter to all dmg, regardless of buffs. If i don't use any dmg buffs my dmg will still get reduced. And it is not the only counter to dmg. There are buffs that reduce incoming dmg and there are plenty of other means of dmg mitigation. Buffs and debuffs vary a lot across the board when it comes to strengh and accessibility. And that's fine. They don't have to be all the same. By your logic access to Major Berserk has to be increased and it has to be buffed to grant +30% dmg in order to "counter" Major Protection. Would be balanced, right?

The thing with WR is: It outperforms all other Minor Maim sources by a lot. It outperforms other defensive sets, especially in group play, and it is strong for any magicka build. It could be nerfed in duration and would still be super strong. All those points are facts and all those points are clear signs that the set is op. Compared to many other sets and compared to other Minor Maim applications.

Waffennacht

I don't think turning a 7k hit into a 6k hit is OP

GrumpyDuckling

Rianai wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

WR is not a counter to those dmg buffs. It is a counter to dmg in general. Is overall dmg too high? That's debateable, but even if would be the case, one single set shouldn't outperform other defensive sets like WR does.

And please stop those comparisons with dmg buffs. As already mentioned, every source of those buffs allow easy 100% uptime. You are supposed to be able to keep those buffs up permanently. It is different with Minor Maim. Nothing else grants as high Minor Maim uptime as WR. It is not even close. Again, one thing shouldn't outperform all other options.

Who says the game is "supposed" to be played with permanent damage buffs? Do you not understand how counters work? Why should damage buffs be vastly better and more accessible than maim/debuffs?

If you weren't supposed to play with permanent dmg buffs, access to those buffs would be much more limited (eg potions not granting longer duration than cd). And no, Minor Maim is not a counter to dmg buffs. It is a counter to all dmg, regardless of buffs. If i don't use any dmg buffs my dmg will still get reduced. And it is not the only counter to dmg. There are buffs that reduce incoming dmg and there are plenty of other means of dmg mitigation. Buffs and debuffs vary a lot across the board when it comes to strengh and accessibility. And that's fine. They don't have to be all the same. By your logic access to Major Berserk has to be increased and it has to be buffed to grant +30% dmg in order to "counter" Major Protection. Would be balanced, right?

The thing with WR is: It outperforms all other Minor Maim sources by a lot. It outperforms other defensive sets, especially in group play, and it is strong for any magicka build. It could be nerfed in duration and would still be super strong. All those points are facts and all those points are clear signs that the set is op. Compared to many other sets and compared to other Minor Maim applications.

Your list of problems points to the need for better access to Minor Maim across the board, not a nerf to WR.

Chilly-McFreeze

Waffennacht wrote: »

I don't think turning a 7k hit into a 6k hit is OP

I don't think someone will stop after one hit. It sums up. You know that but acknowledging this would ruin your sassy comment.

Waffennacht

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I don't think turning a 7k hit into a 6k hit is OP

I don't think someone will stop after one hit. It sums up. You know that but acknowledging this would ruin your sassy comment.

It's the same ratio no matter what the damage amount is.... 15% is always 15%, aka not very much

Chilly-McFreeze

Sure. But remember people spend dozends of hours and thousands of gold to get the right trait item to squeeze out even 0.x% more dmg. So 15% is huge

Waffennacht

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Sure. But remember people spend dozends of hours and thousands of gold to get the right trait item to squeeze out even 0.x% more dmg. So 15% is huge

You're comparing % of improvement, yeah if people spend 200k on gold jewelry they spent 200k for like a 3% improvement, making Riposte valued at 1 mil... And what 75 hours?

....

See how monetary value and time is not an accurate way to assess combat value right?

15% damage reduction can be accurately assessed by TTK increase, which is assessed by: total health + HoTs + burst heal divided by damage taken divided by time

So if you have 20k health, 1k hot and 0 burst heal and your opponent is trying to kill you and it takes 5 seconds he is trying to deal 25k / 5 or an average of 5k dps, meaning Riposte will add a value of 15% of 25k or 3.75k health over 5k

So mathematically, Riposte in the above example is worth less than 1k hps.... (2k hps tooltip)

Viper deals on average more than 1k dps

(I know burst is king however as Riposte is a constant in our thought experiment so burst damage changes nothing)

As a defensive set, it's on par with offensive sets - therefore not OP

WreckfulAbandon

Waffennacht wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Sure. But remember people spend dozends of hours and thousands of gold to get the right trait item to squeeze out even 0.x% more dmg. So 15% is huge

You're comparing % of improvement, yeah if people spend 200k on gold jewelry they spent 200k for like a 3% improvement, making Riposte valued at 1 mil... And what 75 hours?

....

See how monetary value and time is not an accurate way to assess combat value right?

15% damage reduction can be accurately assessed by TTK increase, which is assessed by: total health + HoTs + burst heal divided by damage taken divided by time

So if you have 20k health, 1k hot and 0 burst heal and your opponent is trying to kill you and it takes 5 seconds he is trying to deal 25k / 5 or an average of 5k dps, meaning Riposte will add a value of 15% of 25k or 3.75k health over 5k

So mathematically, Riposte in the above example is worth less than 1k hps.... (2k hps tooltip)

Viper deals on average more than 1k dps

(I know burst is king however as Riposte is a constant in our thought experiment so burst damage changes nothing)

As a defensive set, it's on par with offensive sets - therefore not OP

Not really the same since one person in a group can run this and get 100% uptime on maim on multiple ppl.. By just getting hit

Waffennacht

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Sure. But remember people spend dozends of hours and thousands of gold to get the right trait item to squeeze out even 0.x% more dmg. So 15% is huge

You're comparing % of improvement, yeah if people spend 200k on gold jewelry they spent 200k for like a 3% improvement, making Riposte valued at 1 mil... And what 75 hours?

....

See how monetary value and time is not an accurate way to assess combat value right?

15% damage reduction can be accurately assessed by TTK increase, which is assessed by: total health + HoTs + burst heal divided by damage taken divided by time

So if you have 20k health, 1k hot and 0 burst heal and your opponent is trying to kill you and it takes 5 seconds he is trying to deal 25k / 5 or an average of 5k dps, meaning Riposte will add a value of 15% of 25k or 3.75k health over 5k

So mathematically, Riposte in the above example is worth less than 1k hps.... (2k hps tooltip)

Viper deals on average more than 1k dps

(I know burst is king however as Riposte is a constant in our thought experiment so burst damage changes nothing)

As a defensive set, it's on par with offensive sets - therefore not OP

Not really the same since one person in a group can run this and get 100% uptime on maim on multiple ppl.. By just getting hit

How the heck does that apply to the actual effect it has on said players? That has absolutely no change on TTk where the source is coming from.


It could hit Every player in game and you'll still take 7k frags

Chilly-McFreeze

So you basically say 15% difference in damage is no issue?

WreckfulAbandon

Waffennacht wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Sure. But remember people spend dozends of hours and thousands of gold to get the right trait item to squeeze out even 0.x% more dmg. So 15% is huge

You're comparing % of improvement, yeah if people spend 200k on gold jewelry they spent 200k for like a 3% improvement, making Riposte valued at 1 mil... And what 75 hours?

....

See how monetary value and time is not an accurate way to assess combat value right?

15% damage reduction can be accurately assessed by TTK increase, which is assessed by: total health + HoTs + burst heal divided by damage taken divided by time

So if you have 20k health, 1k hot and 0 burst heal and your opponent is trying to kill you and it takes 5 seconds he is trying to deal 25k / 5 or an average of 5k dps, meaning Riposte will add a value of 15% of 25k or 3.75k health over 5k

So mathematically, Riposte in the above example is worth less than 1k hps.... (2k hps tooltip)

Viper deals on average more than 1k dps

(I know burst is king however as Riposte is a constant in our thought experiment so burst damage changes nothing)

As a defensive set, it's on par with offensive sets - therefore not OP

Not really the same since one person in a group can run this and get 100% uptime on maim on multiple ppl.. By just getting hit

How the heck does that apply to the actual effect it has on said players? That has absolutely no change on TTk where the source is coming from.


It could hit Every player in game and you'll still take 7k frags

Yeah it could also provide dmg reduction for all of your group mates... 15% x however many ppl get debuffed by this complete no-brainer of a set.

I should add.. 15 sec uptime for doing nothing to ensure buff is applied.. just get hit and carry on. Also, 1 spell dmg bonus and 1 magicka bonus for the set. So it's got 2/4 dps traits, then health and a ridiculous debuff. It's a stupidly effective way to "build" defensively.

They sure don't make it seem like you're building defensive by giving you dmg for wearing it.

Edit: not sure how this double posted, but that's ok some ppl need to read it twice and reconsider

Wreuntzylla

Just change it to be a buff to the wearer.

But, with OP sets like Daedric Trickery out there, I can't believe we are even having this discussion.

Waffennacht

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

So you basically say 15% difference in damage is no issue?

Definitely not OP when that's all it does

HoloYoitsu

Destyran wrote: »

15% damage reduction is ALOT for pvp. Especially when it's permanent or ina zerg. It can get everyone who touches it. It needs a con to running it its waaay to op in open world

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Why are you ignoring that 20% weapon/spell damage =/= +20% more damage done?
People go batsh*t for minor berserk, which is +8% dmg done. 15% dmg loss is huge, especially with possible 100% uptime on multiple targets.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Sure. But remember people spend dozends of hours and thousands of gold to get the right trait item to squeeze out even 0.x% more dmg. So 15% is huge

Ishammael wrote: »

Riposte procs when "critting" shields. Also, the 15% dmg reduction applies to the crit which procs it.

Bottom line... its an extremely strong set. Is it OP? Probably not because of the number of other available options which cause that status effect. The opportunity cost of a 5-pc bonus is quite high as well.

Waffennacht wrote: »

It's the same ratio no matter what the damage amount is.... 15% is always 15%, aka not very much

OK so I see this thread is full of people on both sides of the debate, none of whom have actually tested the numbers beyond looking at the erroneous tooltip. Allow me to quote myself from the other riposte thread:

All sources of Minor Maim only reduce player damage by 10% not 15% as the tooltip says.

Likewise:

• Major Maim only reduces player damage by 20%, not 30%.
• Bastion of the Heartland (5% player dmg + 20% AoE mitigation) only gives 20% mitigation total, not 25%.
• Blade Cloak (25% tooltip mitigation) only gives 20% mitigation.

These sources of mitigation all do give the actual tooltip mitigation against NPC mobs, just not against players - which is what I discovered after testing each one.

C0ndor wrote: »

Dunno, I just tanked 4 people in light armor with this set on backbar with a light armored warden, the set can be really strong also on templar and sorc. You can slot it in one bar and use a monster set, like pirate skeleton (planning to try it) and be unkillable (with minor protection you can reach 53% damage reduction). Not sure if it need a nerf but I'm definitely having a lot of fun with it

Your math is incorrect: Major and Minor Protection are multiplicative with all other sources of mitigation and as I stated, Minor Maim only gives 10% mitigation, not 15%.

Thence, stacking all three effects results in 42.04% mitigation. Yes that's still a lot of mitigation, but what I would like to say to everyone is please be forward thinking and do some in game testing to see what the numbers really are.

paulsimonps

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Destyran wrote: »

15% damage reduction is ALOT for pvp. Especially when it's permanent or ina zerg. It can get everyone who touches it. It needs a con to running it its waaay to op in open world

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Why are you ignoring that 20% weapon/spell damage =/= +20% more damage done?
People go batsh*t for minor berserk, which is +8% dmg done. 15% dmg loss is huge, especially with possible 100% uptime on multiple targets.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Sure. But remember people spend dozends of hours and thousands of gold to get the right trait item to squeeze out even 0.x% more dmg. So 15% is huge

Ishammael wrote: »

Riposte procs when "critting" shields. Also, the 15% dmg reduction applies to the crit which procs it.

Bottom line... its an extremely strong set. Is it OP? Probably not because of the number of other available options which cause that status effect. The opportunity cost of a 5-pc bonus is quite high as well.

Waffennacht wrote: »

It's the same ratio no matter what the damage amount is.... 15% is always 15%, aka not very much

OK so I see this thread is full of people on both sides of the debate, none of whom have actually tested the numbers beyond looking at the erroneous tooltip. Allow me to quote myself from the other riposte thread:

All sources of Minor Maim only reduce player damage by 10% not 15% as the tooltip says.

Likewise:

• Major Maim only reduces player damage by 20%, not 30%.
• Bastion of the Heartland (5% player dmg + 20% AoE mitigation) only gives 20% mitigation total, not 25%.
• Blade Cloak (25% tooltip mitigation) only gives 20% mitigation.

These sources of mitigation all do give the actual tooltip mitigation against NPC mobs, just not against players - which is what I discovered after testing each one.

C0ndor wrote: »

Dunno, I just tanked 4 people in light armor with this set on backbar with a light armored warden, the set can be really strong also on templar and sorc. You can slot it in one bar and use a monster set, like pirate skeleton (planning to try it) and be unkillable (with minor protection you can reach 53% damage reduction). Not sure if it need a nerf but I'm definitely having a lot of fun with it

Your math is incorrect: Major and Minor Protection are multiplicative with all other sources of mitigation and as I stated, Minor Maim only gives 10% mitigation, not 15%.

Thence, stacking all three effects results in 42.04% mitigation. Yes that's still a lot of mitigation, but what I would like to say to everyone is please be forward thinking and do some in game testing to see what the numbers really are.

@HoloYoitsu
All of this is only half truths, You give values but they are only in certain situations. The tooltip values are accurate but are subject to diminish returns. Battlespirit+minor maim=0.5*0.85=0.425=57.5% total mitigation. Your claim that minor maim is only 10% is false, its less, but only when counting with battlespirit. If we count the damage after battlespirit as the default damage then minor maim is indeed a 15% damage mitigation.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-and-list-of-options/p1