ESO is all about DPS DPS DPS

idk

@Troneon

Your first comment is something that is an obvious statement in any MMO. The higher DPS is the faster things die.

Your comment seems more to pugging group dungeons. Find a guild that you like and do dungeons with them. Much better than pugging dungeons when low CP or learning combat and survival in this game, in any game. If I really want to knock stuff out fast and guarantee a smoother run I go to guild.

Additionally, Zos has moved more towards mechanics being the key element for clearing content, well, group content. vMoL was a start with being able to manage the mechanics being more important than the DPS though good DPS is has still been helpful.

Then they added vHoF with Morrowind. Mechanics are everything there. DPS is very much secondary in that trial. Have issues with area awareness and using the tools we are all given then expect a roadblock.

code65536

I rarely go on runs with 4 DPS. It's unnecessary, and frankly I prefer the smoothness and cleaniness of properly supported runs. It's much easier for me to DPS when a tank is grouping and positioning things and when the healer gives me resources and buffs.

Sure, for most of the old dungeons there isn't that much for the tanks and healers to do, but who really cares about those dungeons anyway? For the far more interesting DLC dungeons, I absolutely want a good tank and good healer. We regularly speed through vRoM/vCoS with hard mode and no deaths in under 20 minutes precisely because the other DPS and I are properly supported by a good tank and healer. And I have seen runs fall apart because we sub in an inexperienced tank or healer. So I can say with certainty that 4 DPS runs of the DLC dungeons are going to be messy and slower.

Also, ZOS does listen. The new trial has almost no DPS checks and so many immunity phases that high DPS is almost rendered moot. Instead, the burden has shifted almost entirely to the tanks. vHoF is by far the most tank-intensive trial and it's the tanks that will make or break​ the run. (And yes, I have been in vHoF as both tank and as DPS.)

Mettaricana

Make more bosses able to one shot players in medium or lower gear defense brackets and virtually impossoble without a tank. Make some bosses immune to burns like only have some momentary dps options between being immune. Add more must heal through or die senarios. And final option which i dont like as being a dps myself make all dps self heals weaker. Requiring a dedicated healer or at bare min off healer. Other option is install wep dmg and spell dmg soft caps and hard caps to prevent 5k wep dmg infinite self heals based on dmg done. Last option and least likely make skills cost a ton more and make them all revolve around heavy attack and sometimes skills rather than skills and sometimes heavy attaks.

Mettaricana

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Would be great if having high dps would make the fight faster, but at the same time more difficult.
For many bosses this could easiely be accomplished by tying add spawns and other mechanics to boss hp and not to a timer.

Just imagine:
- if Rakkhat would ignore his timer and instantly jump to the next platform when he took more than 5% damage on a short one or more than 10% on a long one.
- If Valariel would sommon her adds every time she lost 15% or 20% of her hp.
- If the planar inhibitor would spawn one portal for every 3% lost hp.
Additionally you could also add enrage mechanics, that kick in when you kill a boss way to fast:
- burned down Valkyn Skoria for more than 45% on a single platform -> too bad he now destroys all the platforms, good luck surviving the rest of the fight
- burned Nerien'eth to 40% with less than 3 add waves -> prepare for some unlimited ghost spawns, similar to the mannimarco main quest but with ghosts that don't die to a single heavy attack

This would be great for many players: High end players will still have a nice challenge, no matter how much dps they can do, but players with less dps could also deal with those bosses in a slow but steady fight.

I like this or even better just add your odea and ad random evolving boss AI have bosses do some mechanics at random just summon adds randomly regardless of time and health boss could throw powerful attack several times in a row rather than once every few mins. Make some more bosses hve sustain drain skills like fungal 2. Have reactive skills also like say a magicka based boss when being ganged up on just does a massive f€#% your dps blast and sends all nearby players flying to get the dps burn off its back.

Fusiondk

vMoL and vHoF are confused by this theory as are most other vet trials and 2nd part/dlc dungeons. So yea... you can totally 4xdps trivial content. But when your healer can do 20k dps while efficiently healing does that now make him a dps? The game isn't always about clearly defined roles.

malcolmhagger

Zvorgin wrote: »

When magsorc can cast a single shield for extreme survival why worry about anything but cranking out dps? Magic shields should be removed.

leaving mag sorcs with what defense? bound armor? haha...no

Ihatenightblades

Troneon wrote: »

Is pretty obvious now that pretty much all content is faster completed with DPS being everything, even to the point of having 4 dps with one self survival skill is enough to burn down 90% of content.

Even to the point where "DPS Triggers" and "Timers" are in almost all new content ZOS puts out. 90% of the problem with LFG tool is CP500+ players being put with CP 100 or below players, which end up with everyone leaving because "lack of DPS", due to how now if you don't have enough DPS within the the "Timer" of the boss it becomes impossible to complete the content....and progress....

Even in PVP its all about dps / proc sets with one or two survival skills...but mainly DPS...or Burst..

Forget healers, forget tanks, for 90% of content just go full dps with one or two survival skills...this is 90% of content and its getting boring. ZOS tried to solve it by nerfing sustain into the ground but that failed miserably and only made content take even longer and worsen the problem that still exists....just to try and make healers / tanks useful again, did not work either...

Either scale up CP 100 and below players to CP 600+ dps or stop putting lower level players with higher level players in groups...thats the short fix...long fix, make healers and tanks viable again and stop making content all about "have X amount of DPS within X amount of time or you all die and can not progress, or you reach a point where boss can never die = same outcome".....

ZOS even tried to solve it by adding loads of cheapy one shot mechanics to most of it's content, again failing miserably...

This is why almost everyone now is doing this to cheese through content.

1. Use highest class for DPS
2. Use BIS gear and sets or as close to as possible
3. Find three other players with same
4. Cheese through content
5. Never feel the pain of lack of dps again

90% of what content?

I will tell you this you will never complete a vet trial without a healer and tank. Period.

Ya most dungeons you can 4 dps it but now on they make dlc dungeons much tougher to where you need a tank and healer no doubt. ( ruins, cos icp etc )

Doctordarkspawn

It's how the game was designed on more than one occasion, and how it was allways designed.

Taking a sledgehammer to our ability to DPS does not change the fact you made DPS a big deal.

Magdalina

Mettaricana wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Would be great if having high dps would make the fight faster, but at the same time more difficult.
For many bosses this could easiely be accomplished by tying add spawns and other mechanics to boss hp and not to a timer.

Just imagine:
- if Rakkhat would ignore his timer and instantly jump to the next platform when he took more than 5% damage on a short one or more than 10% on a long one.
- If Valariel would sommon her adds every time she lost 15% or 20% of her hp.
- If the planar inhibitor would spawn one portal for every 3% lost hp.
Additionally you could also add enrage mechanics, that kick in when you kill a boss way to fast:
- burned down Valkyn Skoria for more than 45% on a single platform -> too bad he now destroys all the platforms, good luck surviving the rest of the fight
- burned Nerien'eth to 40% with less than 3 add waves -> prepare for some unlimited ghost spawns, similar to the mannimarco main quest but with ghosts that don't die to a single heavy attack

This would be great for many players: High end players will still have a nice challenge, no matter how much dps they can do, but players with less dps could also deal with those bosses in a slow but steady fight.

I like this or even better just add your odea and ad random evolving boss AI have bosses do some mechanics at random just summon adds randomly regardless of time and health boss could throw powerful attack several times in a row rather than once every few mins. Make some more bosses hve sustain drain skills like fungal 2. Have reactive skills also like say a magicka based boss when being ganged up on just does a massive f€#% your dps blast and sends all nearby players flying to get the dps burn off its back.

Definitely no rng based mechanics. We already have too much of those, we don't need more.

Luckylancer

A healer can crit a full DD health. A healer can heal tank hp pool in few seconds. A shielding skill gives more shield than your max hp. You take 10 times or more dmg than your full hp in fight but you live with life gain.

I think this system is the reason. If you would have 10 times more healt but heals/shield would give 6-7 times more hp, you would need healers. now sorc shields or templar life leech allow you to live. (except trials)
_________________________________________________________________
min/max builds are way better than others. if there were little diffrence, min/maxers numbers will reduce.

JWKe

ZO$ just doesn't know what they're doing. If Zo$ wasn't sitting on such a strong IP they would've been wildstarred by now.

Also, being that most of Zo$ xpacs and DLC are story driven it's rather a nuisance to play as a tank as burning through the NPC's as a tank take ages. Being that the story content is more geared toward DPS, Tanks now have to swap over to a DPS set up having to then pay gold for CP redistribution and skill reallocation. Not fun. So most like myself despite despite rather to just DPS, and have a one size fit all type set up for all content.

Drummerx04

Zvorgin wrote: »

When magsorc can cast a single shield for extreme survival why worry about anything but cranking out dps? Magic shields should be removed.

You must be a pvp stamblade or something. Without shields, magsorc is basically walking AP in any pvp environment. Templars and dks can build kind of tanky and offset damage with class self heals. magsorc cannot, not even close.

Shields are powerful in pve for sure, but in pve magicka shields are powerful on every class since running more than one shield is generally a complete waste anyway.

There are also a couple of dungeons where a boss can easily one shot me through a 27k magicka shield and 17k health while blocking.

I've also tried unslotting a shield for easier content, like the final boss of vEH1, which is about as easy as you can get. I freaking died because the healer didn't heal me (I even had surge up) and there was no tank to draw the aggro. I'm very experienced with magsorc, and every time I see someone suggest that shields should be removed, I wish I could reach through the internet and pimp smack the idiot on the other end. Either they are a stamina player upset that shields are an effective defense while infinitely popping vigor and dodge roll themselves, or they are a magicka player looking for another excuse to quit the game.

Elsonso

code65536 wrote: »

Also, ZOS does listen. The new trial has almost no DPS checks and so many immunity phases that high DPS is almost rendered moot. Instead, the burden has shifted almost entirely to the tanks. vHoF is by far the most tank-intensive trial and it's the tanks that will make or break​ the run. (And yes, I have been in vHoF as both tank and as DPS.)

Makes me wonder if other content has being revised to match HoF. Nerfed, as people will probably see it.

Insandros

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

ZOS heavily nerfed resources in the Morrowind patch so people would have to "choose" between damage and sustain.

I am of the opinion that the decision was a lazy way to "fix" the problem of players stacking damage as high they could.

Heavily nerfed? Let's not HEAVILY over exagerate here. It's so far from being that nerfed, if it's that much of an issue on your side, you're having a serious issue to understand your toons and what to do to actualy overcome this, in my own opinion.

Faulgor

People wanted it this way. They asked for "fast action combat", and that means neglecting strategic aspects.
We all saw how much people were freaking out because the changes to sustain might require to use a heavy attack or two in their precious rotation. If they were asked to rely even more on tanks and healers they would tear the servers apart.

code65536

lordrichter wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Also, ZOS does listen. The new trial has almost no DPS checks and so many immunity phases that high DPS is almost rendered moot. Instead, the burden has shifted almost entirely to the tanks. vHoF is by far the most tank-intensive trial and it's the tanks that will make or break​ the run. (And yes, I have been in vHoF as both tank and as DPS.)

Makes me wonder if other content has being revised to match HoF. Nerfed, as people will probably see it.

The dungeon team learns from what we do. We stacked and burned the original trials, so they designed MoL with anti stacking mechanics. We burned past crucial mechanics in MoL and DPS became crucial because those mechanics were so unforgiving so skipping made life so much easier. So they designed HoF with anti burn mechanics and immunity phases to stop all that but they also made the mechanics more recoverable.

The importance of the support roles has also risen, from tanks that had very little of interest to do in vAA to a much more important role with a lot of subtle nuance in vMoL to vHoF where the tank makes or breaks the run.

We see a similar progression with dungeons where Ibomez had mechanics that were so overwhelming that burning past them was the only way that most people could clear him. They revised the mechanic by adding immunity phases to stop the burn, but also toned down the ridiculous difficulty of the mechanic so that most people could actually do them.

They took this lesson to heart with the SotH dungeons where many fights have immunity phases, mechanics are unskippable no matter how much DPS you have, and pacing and coordination becomes more important (notably in vRoM HM where there are distinct burst and recovery phases and not respecting that will often result in a very messy fight or outright wipe).

With the notable exception of Ibomez, however, ZOS does not revise old fights. They can and have tweaked damage and health numbers, but to truly revise the old content, they would need to do much more and redesign the mechanics or even the entire encounter. That's not a realistic expectation, for them to spend that much time and energy on redesigning fights in years-old content. But their newer content is much better designed, and I look forward to seeing want the next dungeon DLC brings.

So while ZOS hasn't "fixed" the design of their old content, they have addressed most of these problems with their newest content. And this is why the only pledges that I do these days are vCoS and vRoM and why I hate the old Craglorn trials and think that only vMoL and vHoF are fun.

KingYogi415

I have never seen so much wine in one thread.

Would you guys like some cheese?

Or maybe L2P and enjoy that you are in a game with a high skill cap. After 1000 hours you can play the same way.

TheDarkoil

Farmed wgt and banished cells with 3 other dps mag sorcs, honestly I almost felt sorry for the bosses they were dying almost as soon as they had spawned. I don't think tanks are needed much in dungeons apart from a few vet bosses if you have a decent healer, then again a good/bad tank will make or break a trial run.

Ling

zos should just make softcaps again!

Dragonking06

You're all doing it wrong... 1 Tank (With Alkosh) 3 mag Sorc squads ftw. (those were fun before MW dropped lol)

But no seriously, adapt and survive.

dday3six

Faulgor wrote: »

People wanted it this way. They asked for "fast action combat", and that means neglecting strategic aspects.
We all saw how much people were freaking out because the changes to sustain might require to use a heavy attack or two in their precious rotation. If they were asked to rely even more on tanks and healers they would tear the servers apart.

Wanting fast paced combat doesn't mean fights have to lack mechanics. It's not synonymous with desiring all and only simplified burn phases. Speed and strategy can co-exist, and fast pace translates to a continuous stream of combat inputs during the burn phases of fights.

The issue is more about the everyone can do everything approach. If roles were more defined, content could be more easily designed for requiring Tanks, Healers, and DPS.

Xylphan

Troneon wrote: »

jlboozer wrote: »

Not true, I always appreciate a good healer or tank. Its just good ones are hard to find...

It does not matter if you have best healer and tank in the world, without good DPS, you can't complete content...period.

Well...you can it will just be slow. With the exception of the DPS e-Peen content, like vMA. There you simply can't win unless you can out-DPS the regen which pretty much rules out tanks.

But more importantly, DPS is definitely king. Get a high enough DPS and you can solo almost everything including most dungeons. The only reason you can't solo some of them is that they have mechanics that require multiple people.

It's a rather large imbalance (one shared by more than one MMO) and contributes to having 100 DPS players for every tank or healer. If content would adjust dynamically based on the characters running it, that could help balance things out a bit more. But as things stand right now you get a hell of a lot more benefits running DPS than any class.

disintegr8

DPS has been king here for all the time I have been playing. It may be even more so once this patch is out (PS4 here).

My Templar healer build can currently solo any dolmen and a lot of world bosses better than some of my DD's, not through pure DPS but through good self sustain with 'reasonable' DPS. Once any nerfs come in, I might now have to worry about resources a lot more and may fail trough not having enough DPS to defeat them before my resources run out.

My view is that this just makes high DPS even more ideal - simply to defeat the enemy before your resources run out.

Betsararie

I play sorc so I usually don't have an issue staying alive in vet dungeons.

I only have one shield slotted in my dungeon setup ward, but it's all I need and with points into bastion, you become very hard to kill.

My health is at 17.4k but can go to up to over 18k if I slot a healthy willpower ring instead of arcane.

I have gone for the 3 man dps setup several times in vet dungeons with other sorcs and we absolutely blow through content.

A tank or healer would be nice but it's simply not needed with the amount of dps we put out. lol

Ep1kMalware

Troneon wrote: »

Is pretty obvious now that pretty much all content is faster completed with DPS being everything, even to the point of having 4 dps with one self survival skill is enough to burn down 90% of content.

Even to the point where "DPS Triggers" and "Timers" are in almost all new content ZOS puts out. 90% of the problem with LFG tool is CP500+ players being put with CP 100 or below players, which end up with everyone leaving because "lack of DPS", due to how now if you don't have enough DPS within the the "Timer" of the boss it becomes impossible to complete the content....and progress....

Even in PVP its all about dps / proc sets with one or two survival skills...but mainly DPS...or Burst..

Forget healers, forget tanks, for 90% of content just go full dps with one or two survival skills...this is 90% of content and its getting boring. ZOS tried to solve it by nerfing sustain into the ground but that failed miserably and only made content take even longer and worsen the problem that still exists....just to try and make healers / tanks useful again, did not work either...

Either scale up CP 100 and below players to CP 600+ dps or stop putting lower level players with higher level players in groups...thats the short fix...long fix, make healers and tanks viable again and stop making content all about "have X amount of DPS within X amount of time or you all die and can not progress, or you reach a point where boss can never die = same outcome".....

ZOS even tried to solve it by adding loads of cheapy one shot mechanics to most of it's content, again failing miserably...

This is why almost everyone now is doing this to cheese through content.

1. Use highest class for DPS
2. Use BIS gear and sets or as close to as possible
3. Find three other players with same
4. Cheese through content
5. Never feel the pain of lack of dps again

I disagree entirely. I do agree dps makes everything easier, which seems to be a perfectly fine no brainer. The only instances where dps seems to actually be a win/loose situation is manticora in vso amd vmol. Other than that the dps requirements to easilly clear content remains incredibly relaxed. If you cannot pull 15k dps then you are doing some things very very wrong amd your ability to play the game should be evaluated and brought into question.

The worst dps specs in the game can manage 15k without much effort.

FrostFallFox

So when the DPS is good, people think it's bad. When DPS is bad, people think it's bad.

I'd rather have competent people on my team but that's just me. Won't spend over and hour on any dungeon. But hey, you do you.

Tannus15

Boss's just need hits which ignore shields and are mitigated by large amounts of physical / spell resist.
Basically "every now and then it will kill anyone in medium / light armour" and this attack needs to be taunt able.
Now tanks are required or the dps will just get destroyed one after the other.

The problem is that too many bosses ignore taunts which made people realise that they don't need tanks, or that tanks are actually a liability. Add to that all the self healing that all the classes have and healers aren't required either. Obviously ZoS have attempted to address this by cutting sustain, in hopes of lowering dps, and by pretty much removing major mending, hoping to shift groups back to the traditional group format, but honestly it hasn't worked.

Health and resist needs to matter more and bosses need to be tauntable for tanks to be important.
Incoming damage needs to be over 7kdps for self healing to no longer cut it.

For added fun I would add certain mechanics which wipe/ignore/extra damage vs shields

Ep1kMalware

Tannus15 wrote: »

Boss's just need hits which ignore shields and are mitigated by large amounts of physical / spell resist.
Basically "every now and then it will kill anyone in medium / light armour" and this attack needs to be taunt able.
Now tanks are required or the dps will just get destroyed one after the other.

The problem is that too many bosses ignore taunts which made people realise that they don't need tanks, or that tanks are actually a liability. Add to that all the self healing that all the classes have and healers aren't required either. Obviously ZoS have attempted to address this by cutting sustain, in hopes of lowering dps, and by pretty much removing major mending, hoping to shift groups back to the traditional group format, but honestly it hasn't worked.

Health and resist needs to matter more and bosses need to be tauntable for tanks to be important.
Incoming damage needs to be over 7kdps for self healing to no longer cut it.

For added fun I would add certain mechanics which wipe/ignore/extra damage vs shields

'Kill your team' participation mechanics were introduced during imperial city. People would just sit there amd let their team members die off 1 by 1 amd complained that it was way too hard. They could go this way, but they'd sve to deal with casuals threatening to not biy 500$ houses long enoygh for these mechanics to become accepted.

Kalante

proc sets that do a lot of damage ruined this game. Congratulations your armor killed me yippee.

Saucy_Jack

The problem is that you have two groups of people who are running end game pve:

1) the people who actually want to be challenged, and are thus disappointed at the fact that most dungeons are just a DPS frenzy and nothing more.

2) the people who want to get through the content as fast as possible, either due to wanting to farm gear faster, or farm exp faster. They love the fact that most dungeons are a DPS frenzy, as resources and time spent tanking/healing are just eating into their time.

These two groups will always be at odds, and when you please one, you will anger the other.