ESO is all about DPS DPS DPS

Ep1kMalware

Dantaria wrote: »

me_ming wrote: »

I agree. Trial mechanic isn't really suitable for non-DPS orient builds. I think the reason why there isn't too much build diversity towards end-game content is because end-game contents you will always want to maximize DPS, even healers and tanks should be tailored to maximize DPS.

Wut? WUT?! Like... have you ever been in a vet trial?

Healers do NOT dps in trials. Tanks do NOT dps in trials. When it comes to vet trials, tanks only tank and healers only heal.

There is almost no build diversity, simply because there can be none. When you go to the hardest content and do it for leaderboard... you need maximum efficiency. It comes down to hard cold numbers. Until warden came, templar was the best healer simply because of existing skills (and templars still are the best imo). DKs are the best tanks, yet again, simply because of skills and numbers.

There are many ways to do stuff. But only very few - to do it fast and efficient.

In his defense, I spy a miscomunication. Healers and tanks are indeed built and setuo to aid the team, the majority of which are dps. builds that so not focus on sustained dps, like pvp builds or casual questing builds/hybrids also do not fair too well in raids, as they cannot overcome enrage mechanics.

me_ming

Dantaria wrote: »

me_ming wrote: »

I agree. Trial mechanic isn't really suitable for non-DPS orient builds. I think the reason why there isn't too much build diversity towards end-game content is because end-game contents you will always want to maximize DPS, even healers and tanks should be tailored to maximize DPS.

Wut? WUT?! Like... have you ever been in a vet trial?

Healers do NOT dps in trials. Tanks do NOT dps in trials. When it comes to vet trials, tanks only tank and healers only heal.

There is almost no build diversity, simply because there can be none. When you go to the hardest content and do it for leaderboard... you need maximum efficiency. It comes down to hard cold numbers. Until warden came, templar was the best healer simply because of existing skills (and templars still are the best imo). DKs are the best tanks, yet again, simply because of skills and numbers.

There are many ways to do stuff. But only very few - to do it fast and efficient.

All off them. Have you?

And I am tired of just doing DPS for the sake of downing a boss as fast as you can. It's boring to me. I do 43k DPS on my toons. I know how to work my rotations. lol. I'm just feels it's repetitive. It's boring to me. You didn't need to educate me of what class or race is suited for what role. It's irrelevant to this topic. I have toons I min/maxed, and I play end-game with them.

Where in my message did I say that healers and tank should DPS? I said there should be DPS builds that should not entirely focus on DPSing. Because like I said, it's so boring when ever DPS in this game is wearing the same damn thing (eg last patch every magicka class is wearing BSW).

Before you comment please read and understand first. tyvm

Ep1kMalware

Qbiken wrote: »

ShayPatrickCormac wrote: »

Zos can easily counter the DPS with new Mechanics. For example the Boss have a phase in which to high or to low DPS would activate an early enrage mode. Or if the Boss gets to much damage he heals himselft by 20% or so of his life. Or the Boss gives the group an special Debuff which reduces the healing of the group by 90% or so. Zos only have to need some creativity to counter this. And i think Zos Should rework almost all Bosses in group dungeons and trials to have anti DPS mechanincs to close the gap between Progess and normal players. Zos dont get so much money from these 1%-5% of the players. they get their money from the 90%-95%

Once again punishing people for min/maxing their dpsbuilds is a terrible idea.

Scenario (if this terrible idea was added)
Let´s say both me and a friend can do 40+ dps (80k group dps +), but since this idea was added, we have to limit ourself to do maximum 25-30k dps each.......

Numbers can Always be tweaked but you get my Point of how stupid this sounds. It´s almost the same thing as adding a hardcap for dps. Putting time/effort into a character/build should be rewarded not punished.

PvE and PvP regarding dps is fine. At least now people can´t complain about sustain/dmg overperforming in PvE anymore. Wonder what kind of argument that will be thrown next.....?

I like the term 'over performing' from people that stuggle to clear content with their 'over performing' builds. I also don't get how people can call sustained dps in a well organized group content inteded by zos to be farmed into oblivion as 'over performin'.

I'm with you, I do not understand these people.

me_ming

me_ming wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

me_ming wrote: »

I agree. Trial mechanic isn't really suitable for non-DPS orient builds. I think the reason why there isn't too much build diversity towards end-game content is because end-game contents you will always want to maximize DPS, even healers and tanks should be tailored to maximize DPS.

Wut? WUT?! Like... have you ever been in a vet trial?

Healers do NOT dps in trials. Tanks do NOT dps in trials. When it comes to vet trials, tanks only tank and healers only heal.

There is almost no build diversity, simply because there can be none. When you go to the hardest content and do it for leaderboard... you need maximum efficiency. It comes down to hard cold numbers. Until warden came, templar was the best healer simply because of existing skills (and templars still are the best imo). DKs are the best tanks, yet again, simply because of skills and numbers.

There are many ways to do stuff. But only very few - to do it fast and efficient.

All off them. Have you?

And I am tired of just doing DPS for the sake of downing a boss as fast as you can. It's boring to me. I do 43k DPS on my toons. I know how to work my rotations. lol. I'm just feels it's repetitive. It's boring to me. You didn't need to educate me of what class or race is suited for what role. It's irrelevant to this topic. I have toons I min/maxed, and I play end-game with them.

Where in my message did I say that healers and tank should DPS? I said there should be DPS builds that should not entirely focus on DPSing. Because like I said, it's so boring when ever DPS in this game is wearing the same damn thing (eg last patch every magicka class is wearing BSW).

Before you comment please read and understand first. tyvm

PS: tanks don't just tank, and healers don't just heal. That is a misconception. Most end-game guilds will have healers wear julianos, because no one else really is dying as much, healers take a more supportive role-- yes, but trust me they have to pull decent DPS numbers as well. So even though a templar healer may not have puncturing sweeps in his/her bar, he/she will have a couple of skills that is DPS-oriented. lol.

Jamascus

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

ZOS heavily nerfed resources in the Morrowind patch so people would have to "choose" between damage and sustain.

I am of the opinion that the decision was a lazy way to "fix" the problem of players stacking damage as high they could.

They need to reinstate hard caps...

Saturn

Troneon wrote: »

Is pretty obvious now that pretty much all content is faster completed with DPS being everything, even to the point of having 4 dps with one self survival skill is enough to burn down 90% of content.

Even to the point where "DPS Triggers" and "Timers" are in almost all new content ZOS puts out. 90% of the problem with LFG tool is CP500+ players being put with CP 100 or below players, which end up with everyone leaving because "lack of DPS", due to how now if you don't have enough DPS within the the "Timer" of the boss it becomes impossible to complete the content....and progress....

Even in PVP its all about dps / proc sets with one or two survival skills...but mainly DPS...or Burst..

Forget healers, forget tanks, for 90% of content just go full dps with one or two survival skills...this is 90% of content and its getting boring. ZOS tried to solve it by nerfing sustain into the ground but that failed miserably and only made content take even longer and worsen the problem that still exists....just to try and make healers / tanks useful again, did not work either...

Either scale up CP 100 and below players to CP 600+ dps or stop putting lower level players with higher level players in groups...thats the short fix...long fix, make healers and tanks viable again and stop making content all about "have X amount of DPS within X amount of time or you all die and can not progress, or you reach a point where boss can never die = same outcome".....

ZOS even tried to solve it by adding loads of cheapy one shot mechanics to most of it's content, again failing miserably...

This is why almost everyone now is doing this to cheese through content.

1. Use highest class for DPS
2. Use BIS gear and sets or as close to as possible
3. Find three other players with same
4. Cheese through content
5. Never feel the pain of lack of dps again

I think that going forward ZOS will shy away from DPS > Mechanics, as in the new trial, Halls of Fabrication, there are very few dps checks and it's more about a consistent effort to obey mechanics, which is near opposite of Maw, where DPS allows you to skip mechanics. Personally I'm a fan of the former, since I do like me some good mechanics and hate the whole idea that people are only judged by their DPS output and nothing else.

That being said, I've never had any problem clearing random veteran queues with low cp players, regardless of what role I picked (usually I tank or heal them). You get a damage buff from randomly queueing now and there are very few dps check mechanics left in dungeons, and all of them are avoidable with an average dps output like you'd see from new players. I do agree that there are people who will leave group if they see low level players, but I rarely see it happen and personally don't know anyone who does that. I would be interested in knowing, specifically which dungeons you are referring to though.

I think you might be blowing this issue out of proportion a bit, considering how the game is right now, though your thread does remind me of back in year 1, when everybody was saying, "You don't need healers and tanks, just four dpses with robes and staves." It's an incredibly misleading idea though, as not everyone could pull that off and that still remains true now.

High DPS is of course still an important factor, but it's not the only necessary thing anymore, and I think the new trial will see people shy away from that idea and adopting an outlook wherein players are also judged based on survivability, as well as adherence to mechanics.

KerinKor

newtinmpls wrote: »

Well, I 'splore, and wander and have fun and don't need to worry about that sorta thing much.

Indeed, I've played ESO since closed beta and never once been in a dungeon in a group and never will do .. plenty to do without having to deal with groups with their L2P attitude and fixation on TEH BIG NUMBERZ.

Sallington

You could spend more time focusing on that 10% of content that requires all roles to complete?

Dantaria

me_ming wrote: »

Where in my message did I say that healers and tank should DPS? I said there should be DPS builds that should not entirely focus on DPSing. Because like I said, it's so boring when ever DPS in this game is wearing the same damn thing (eg last patch every magicka class is wearing BSW).

I did quoted:

me_ming wrote: »

I think the reason why there isn't too much build diversity towards end-game content is because end-game contents you will always want to maximize DPS, even healers and tanks should be tailored to maximize DPS.

Unless you meant all the stuff like 100% uptime of Combat Prayer and Alkosh meta, in which case I apologize, I indeed misunderstood.

But then...

me_ming wrote: »

PS: tanks don't just tank, and healers don't just heal. That is a misconception. Most end-game guilds will have healers wear julianos, because no one else really is dying as much, healers take a more supportive role-- yes, but trust me they have to pull decent DPS numbers as well. So even though a templar healer may not have puncturing sweeps in his/her bar, he/she will have a couple of skills that is DPS-oriented. lol.

...
...
...
Julinos. On a healer. In vet trial. Like... what?

Dungeons. In dungeons healers do damage, yes, because the trial amount of support is not needed here. But trials? Trials?

https://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-templar-healer-build-pve-homestead/

In vet Trial it was plus-minus this whole homestead. Both healers wearing SPC + 2 of Worm/Twilight/Mending.

For god's sake, which dps skills will you put? Radiant Oppression? And where?! When you totally need all this, all Extended Ritual, Orbs, Shards, Ele Drain, Combat Prayer, BoL, Healing Springs, Radiant Aura/Repenrance... And, might I add, occasional Purge and Chanelled Focus.

Healers only throw Blockade of Storm for offbalance. Well... Idk about offbalance strategy now, we still use it and it seems to work, but with all heavy-attacks...

Julianos on a healer is like... It's some singular, very specific cases. And a risk still.

Sakiri

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

ShayPatrickCormac wrote: »

Zos can easily counter the DPS with new Mechanics. For example the Boss have a phase in which to high or to low DPS would activate an early enrage mode. Or if the Boss gets to much damage he heals himselft by 20% or so of his life. Or the Boss gives the group an special Debuff which reduces the healing of the group by 90% or so. Zos only have to need some creativity to counter this. And i think Zos Should rework almost all Bosses in group dungeons and trials to have anti DPS mechanincs to close the gap between Progess and normal players. Zos dont get so much money from these 1%-5% of the players. they get their money from the 90%-95%

Zos has done this, the crown roared in rage. I'll list some anti dps mechanics:

Maw - city of ash. Craps adds
Fiend - icp. Craps adds
Sculpter - icp. Imune to damage, craps adds
Lord warden - icp. craps adds that obliterate you.
Planar inhibitor - wgt. Ignorning mechanics kills team member
Dranos - cradle of shadows. Ignoring mechanics kills teamate
Koopa turtle boss - rom. Kills group when mechs are ignored.
Argonian screamer - rom. Kills group when mechs are ignored.
Rom last boss - rom. Kills group when mechs are ignored.
Manticora - sanctum. Kills tank (then group) when mechs are ignored.
Ozara - kills group when mechanics are ignored
Warrior - kills group when mechs are ignored.
Everything in vmol. Kills group when mechs are ignored.
Serpent - kills group when mechs are ignored.
Every trials boss - group is *** and murdered brutally when you ignore the mechanics.

Do you see the pattern? All these are recent additions to eso. Every one kf them gave way to waves and waves of terrified child like tantrums erupting on the forums about 'how hard' it was, and they were getring exposed and how zos should nerf the content so thst their lack of understanding and giving a *** wouldnt get their team members killed.

What you asked for has been given, and given, and given. The best solutions are:

Make some content hard, and some contenr easy to appeal to both groups.

Or

Raise the bar and make these things standard, and not rare isolated instances so players become conditioned to group mechanics.

I'm not so sure where zos is headed, i facor the latter, though.

Those are all trial and"avoided in dungeon finder" DLC dungeons.

Ok except coh. Which I still see served down.

Rickter

I hate the DPS oriented meta.

Its why I am such a proponent of the Trinity (Healer Tank DPS)

GW2 tried no trinity and everyone was dps and it got so bad that everyone was a two hander bezerker geared warrior.

I would really hate to see ESO go down this route. Thats why i understand the changes to sustain they pushed that caused all that back lash only to be disregarded all before the official launch date.

but this is how games have always been- its all about the path of least resistance. its why at the start of a gears of war pvp match, you pull out your shotgun and disregard the lancer rifle which is your main weapon in pve. the shotty gives insta-gib.

same with eso - BiS, max dmg, melt faces, farm, get rich.

i blame humanity

Troneon

Rickter wrote: »

I hate the DPS oriented meta.

Its why I am such a proponent of the Trinity (Healer Tank DPS)

GW2 tried no trinity and everyone was dps and it got so bad that everyone was a two hander bezerker geared warrior.

I would really hate to see ESO go down this route. Thats why i understand the changes to sustain they pushed that caused all that back lash only to be disregarded all before the official launch date.

but this is how games have always been- its all about the path of least resistance. its why at the start of a gears of war pvp match, you pull out your shotgun and disregard the lancer rifle which is your main weapon in pve. the shotty gives insta-gib.

same with eso - BiS, max dmg, melt faces, farm, get rich.

i blame humanity

Yeah I also hated how they dumb down GW2 so much to the point it was nothing but achievement grinding every update and DPS DPS DPS, pew pew done. Grind more achievements with zergs DPS DPS DPS pew pew done....