ESO is all about DPS DPS DPS

Troneon

Is pretty obvious now that pretty much all content is faster completed with DPS being everything, even to the point of having 4 dps with one self survival skill is enough to burn down 90% of content.

Even to the point where "DPS Triggers" and "Timers" are in almost all new content ZOS puts out. 90% of the problem with LFG tool is CP500+ players being put with CP 100 or below players, which end up with everyone leaving because "lack of DPS", due to how now if you don't have enough DPS within the the "Timer" of the boss it becomes impossible to complete the content....and progress....

Even in PVP its all about dps / proc sets with one or two survival skills...but mainly DPS...or Burst..

Forget healers, forget tanks, for 90% of content just go full dps with one or two survival skills...this is 90% of content and its getting boring. ZOS tried to solve it by nerfing sustain into the ground but that failed miserably and only made content take even longer and worsen the problem that still exists....just to try and make healers / tanks useful again, did not work either...

Either scale up CP 100 and below players to CP 600+ dps or stop putting lower level players with higher level players in groups...thats the short fix...long fix, make healers and tanks viable again and stop making content all about "have X amount of DPS within X amount of time or you all die and can not progress, or you reach a point where boss can never die = same outcome".....

ZOS even tried to solve it by adding loads of cheapy one shot mechanics to most of it's content, again failing miserably...

This is why almost everyone now is doing this to cheese through content.

1. Use highest class for DPS
2. Use BIS gear and sets or as close to as possible
3. Find three other players with same
4. Cheese through content
5. Never feel the pain of lack of dps again

Browiseth

unfortunately, this problem is so seeded in the game design that it isn't going to be fixed anytime soon

it's still shameful zos has done so little to address it

newtinmpls

Well, I 'splore, and wander and have fun and don't need to worry about that sorta thing much.

Elsonso

I do not worship the Daedric Prince of DPS, like a lot of people do.

ZOS should just cap DPS at 20k and make people work for their winnings. Ok, not seriously, but I find that I enjoy the game a lot more when I don't worry about DPS.

jlboozer

Not true, I always appreciate a good healer or tank. Its just good ones are hard to find...

GrumpyDuckling

ZOS heavily nerfed resources in the Morrowind patch so people would have to "choose" between damage and sustain.

I am of the opinion that the decision was a lazy way to "fix" the problem of players stacking damage as high they could.

STEVIL

i do agree the bulk of the content is DPS oriented and hope they start adding more non-DPS challenges as a routine part of new content.

Let me observe that there is a noticeable amount of sneak-based content in the new zone - not as part of sneak-specific quests but as a part of routine quests. I consider that a plus - although to me it kind of hits at the core of "new player zone" since early characters wont have many of the things needed for reliable success.

But from what i can tell of the high end group/trial play (not just normal mode or even vet mode but more hard mode) dedicated and skilled tanks and healers are needed for top performance.

if new content trials and the like added in scenarios where having a good sneak meant finishing it quicker/easier/higher score then that set of skills could become more significant in PVE. A challenge where as the fight went on a skilled sneak who had reduced sneak radius or better sneak speed and good force lock for quick open could say drop a gate to prevent more adds from pouring in could well make it worth the while to let one or even two of your 12 go after that role, especially if the adds were fairly potent at either cc. buff, debuff or heals on multi-character scales.

Drummerx04

I will always run dungeons with a good healer and tank... partly because I have good dps, but partly because runs with that level of support and mob control tend to be very clean.

But the nerf did not affect only dps. It really did hit tanks and healers pretty hard as well.

Also, I really don't encounter 4 dps teams very often for vet pledges at least, and content like vCoS/vRoM really tends to be much easier with the traditional group set up.

theamazingx

The content would be absurdly easy if everyone tanking up and tapping the bosses to death were a viable strat on all the bosses. As it stands, the vast majority of existing dps checks are relatively low anyway.

MLGProPlayer

I'd rather have 4x DPS for the majority of my vet pledges since we simply complete the content faster. Shields and damage reduction CP passives make it almost impossible to die, so tanks and healers aren't needed.

Having said that though, you still need a balanced team comp for trials.

casparian

STEVIL wrote: »

i do agree the bulk of the content is DPS oriented and hope they start adding more non-DPS challenges as a routine part of new content.

Let me observe that there is a noticeable amount of sneak-based content in the new zone - not as part of sneak-specific quests but as a part of routine quests. I consider that a plus - although to me it kind of hits at the core of "new player zone" since early characters wont have many of the things needed for reliable success.

But from what i can tell of the high end group/trial play (not just normal mode or even vet mode but more hard mode) dedicated and skilled tanks and healers are needed for top performance.

if new content trials and the like added in scenarios where having a good sneak meant finishing it quicker/easier/higher score then that set of skills could become more significant in PVE. A challenge where as the fight went on a skilled sneak who had reduced sneak radius or better sneak speed and good force lock for quick open could say drop a gate to prevent more adds from pouring in could well make it worth the while to let one or even two of your 12 go after that role, especially if the adds were fairly potent at either cc. buff, debuff or heals on multi-character scales.

There is already a great Trial fight that almost introduces a mechanic like this: Rakkhat. It shouldn't be too hard to design a backroom-style mechanic that is significantly easier if performed by sneaking players.

subtlezeroub17_ESO

I'll admit, the dps races are kinda uninspiring. There's plenty of mechanics and such that they could implement into the game that wouldn't just be about dps. Since I've really only had Healer experience in hard core raids, I'll give my input on that.

I'll use a few AAA games to make a point.

-FFXIV commonly has quite a few Healer related status effects and scenarios that really challenge the healers and make them think. For example, my first one that I never knew about was the "curse" effect. Basically, the boss will hit the group with curse and heavy damage, and if the HP bars aren't over healed, then their afflicted team mate will die.

- As far as class design, there's Astrologians, who aren't "just about healing", their heals are actually quite mediocre. Their true value is augmenting the team and offering short term buffs that no other class can provide. They pull their weight, not because of raw numbers, but because they increase the effectiveness of everyone around them. Honestly, the Warden has the potential to be that kind of class.

- As whole, I never got into hard core raiding with FFxiv, but each and every Healer had something to contribute to the team. There were a lot of stressors in raids that made healing difficult but fun and captivating. There were times I was at the edge of my seat letting loose a sigh of relief because everyone was on their last legs, including me.

Then there's WoW. Where do I even begin?

- Every Healer has an identity that makes them different from the other Healer. My favorite Healer was the discipline priest. Why? Because it wasn't just about putting out the big numbers, it was about making sure your party wasn't taking massive damage to begin with. The dragon knight has potential for a " mitigation" Healer style but ZoS is going to have to rework the earthen heart tree.

- there's healing and tanking mechanics galore to the point where sometimes, the Healer or tank are the most important factor to a fight. I can't remember which raid, but there's a certain scenario where the dpsers are just there to kill adds. The healers and their output are the real stars. They have to heal and repair a shield for a set amount of time while adds must be cc'd or killed so they won't destroy the shield. I remember being a discipline priest keeping the group shielded while also dpsing and healing the shield with my dps. Fun times.


----

Oh, and speaking of CC. That really needs to start being relevant , not only for tanks, but for dps too. If you look at the BIS dps builds for any veteran level content, you'll notice that not one of them includes CC. Why? Because they don't have to.

Also, in regards to heals. I feel like there's only 2 "true" healing classes with an identity. What about DK healers ? Sorc healers ? Night blade healers? What is their identity?

DK healers, imo, have so much potential and I truly feel like they had a plan for them and backed out last minute. Earthen heart could be such an interesting play on mitigation, etc but they really have to change a few spells and replace a few passives to get them up to speed.

Event though I no longer play their games, I must give Blizzard and SE credit on creativity in regards to their content and class designs. They have realized, you can't have a healthy population of healers and tanks without giving your community the incentive to make one. That's why FFXIV in particular has such a healthy tank:dps:healer ratio. All classes feel powerful solo and group wise while having healthy and varied contributions to their teams rather than their most basic function.

Troneon

jlboozer wrote: »

Not true, I always appreciate a good healer or tank. Its just good ones are hard to find...

It does not matter if you have best healer and tank in the world, without good DPS, you can't complete content...period.

Izaki

I don't get how having high DPS equals to cheesing content

Troneon

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

I don't get how having high DPS equals to cheesing content

Basically, you throw away healers and tanks.

All go DPS with shields or some other self survival skill.

Bypass most of the boss mechanics and just burst them down.

Even with the sustain nerf, it is still what most do.

Even worse is even if you have a good tank and good healer, if your group dps sucks, you can't complete content....which is what happens in most PUGS if you choose to play tank or healer...the DPS sucks...

Even worse, it means less people are playing with lower level players, even worse, the amount of people using the LFG Tool is less as they are only grouping with 4 DPS high level players to cheese through content...

So basically...go 4 DPS or go home.

jlboozer

Troneon wrote: »

jlboozer wrote: »

Not true, I always appreciate a good healer or tank. Its just good ones are hard to find...

It does not matter if you have best healer and tank in the world, without good DPS, you can't complete content...period.

I personally have great DPS so I do appreciate a good tank and healer. Even if the other DPS is lacking I can bring enough damage to down dungeon bosses....I try to solo a lot of the Vet Dungeons that I can anyway, but the support is greatly appreciated. It makes my part a lot easier!

Wifeaggro13

Troneon wrote: »

Is pretty obvious now that pretty much all content is faster completed with DPS being everything, even to the point of having 4 dps with one self survival skill is enough to burn down 90% of content.

Even to the point where "DPS Triggers" and "Timers" are in almost all new content ZOS puts out. 90% of the problem with LFG tool is CP500+ players being put with CP 100 or below players, which end up with everyone leaving because "lack of DPS", due to how now if you don't have enough DPS within the the "Timer" of the boss it becomes impossible to complete the content....and progress....

Even in PVP its all about dps / proc sets with one or two survival skills...but mainly DPS...or Burst..

Forget healers, forget tanks, for 90% of content just go full dps with one or two survival skills...this is 90% of content and its getting boring. ZOS tried to solve it by nerfing sustain into the ground but that failed miserably and only made content take even longer and worsen the problem that still exists....just to try and make healers / tanks useful again, did not work either...

Either scale up CP 100 and below players to CP 600+ dps or stop putting lower level players with higher level players in groups...thats the short fix...long fix, make healers and tanks viable again and stop making content all about "have X amount of DPS within X amount of time or you all die and can not progress, or you reach a point where boss can never die = same outcome".....

ZOS even tried to solve it by adding loads of cheapy one shot mechanics to most of it's content, again failing miserably...

This is why almost everyone now is doing this to cheese through content.

1. Use highest class for DPS
2. Use BIS gear and sets or as close to as possible
3. Find three other players with same
4. Cheese through content
5. Never feel the pain of lack of dps again

Yes ive been screaming about this for two years. The easy shallow combat mechanics of eso is an easier cheaper cow to milk. Focus on the churn casual player base until the cow runs dry

jircris11

Troneon wrote: »

Is pretty obvious now that pretty much all content is faster completed with DPS being everything, even to the point of having 4 dps with one self survival skill is enough to burn down 90% of content.

Even to the point where "DPS Triggers" and "Timers" are in almost all new content ZOS puts out. 90% of the problem with LFG tool is CP500+ players being put with CP 100 or below players, which end up with everyone leaving because "lack of DPS", due to how now if you don't have enough DPS within the the "Timer" of the boss it becomes impossible to complete the content....and progress....

Even in PVP its all about dps / proc sets with one or two survival skills...but mainly DPS...or Burst..

Forget healers, forget tanks, for 90% of content just go full dps with one or two survival skills...this is 90% of content and its getting boring. ZOS tried to solve it by nerfing sustain into the ground but that failed miserably and only made content take even longer and worsen the problem that still exists....just to try and make healers / tanks useful again, did not work either...

Either scale up CP 100 and below players to CP 600+ dps or stop putting lower level players with higher level players in groups...thats the short fix...long fix, make healers and tanks viable again and stop making content all about "have X amount of DPS within X amount of time or you all die and can not progress, or you reach a point where boss can never die = same outcome".....

ZOS even tried to solve it by adding loads of cheapy one shot mechanics to most of it's content, again failing miserably...

This is why almost everyone now is doing this to cheese through content.

1. Use highest class for DPS
2. Use BIS gear and sets or as close to as possible
3. Find three other players with same
4. Cheese through content
5. Never feel the pain of lack of dps again

i tank and have little issue killing things in pve quickly. Its mainly the player base that is fixated on the DPS aspect.

AcadianPaladin

The damage vs sustain nerf seems to me to be more of a heals/support vs sustain and a tank/block vs sustain nerf. Healers and tanks seem to be more hurt by it than our wonderful dps folks. Doesn't exactly encourage more folks to play healers and tanks, does it?

As a magplar healer, the loss of major healing means I need to put out more heals. The sustain requirement to sometimes have to do a heavy resto attack is time spent not healing during which I could otherwise put out several support skills to help my allies. Or perhaps I need to slot Channeled Focus for sustain - well, there goes a slot to something that does not directly support my team.

The changes were apparently to stop 'unkillable characters' and those with 'infinite resources'. I don't play PvP. In the world I play in, I have never encountered such characters. Even if they exist, what do they hurt in PvE and what tiny sliver of the player population do they represent?

Frankly, my healer has lost total interest in ever undertaking any content beyond normal PvE.

jircris11

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

The damage vs sustain nerf seems to me to be more of a heals/support vs sustain and a tank/block vs sustain nerf. Healers and tanks seem to be more hurt by it than our wonderful dps folks. Doesn't exactly encourage more folks to play healers and tanks, does it?

As a magplar healer, the loss of major healing means I need to put out more heals. The sustain requirement to sometimes have to do a heavy resto attack is time spent not healing during which I could otherwise put out several support skills to help my allies. Or perhaps I need to slot Channeled Focus for sustain - well, there goes a slot to something that does not directly support my team.

The changes were apparently to stop 'unkillable characters' and those with 'infinite resources'. I don't play PvP. In the world I play in, I have never encountered such characters. Even if they exist, what do they hurt in PvE and what tiny sliver of the player population do they represent?

Frankly, my healer has lost total interest in ever undertaking any content beyond normal PvE.

i do not play a healer, tank wise it seems more manageable but healing from what you said seems to have been burned to the ground.

Darlgon

Troneon wrote: »

jlboozer wrote: »

Not true, I always appreciate a good healer or tank. Its just good ones are hard to find...

It does not matter if you have best healer and tank in the world, without good DPS, you can't complete content...period.

Pretty much this..

And, when no one uses a tank or healer until trials, no tank or healer is good at their job until many wipes learning how to do it. The lack of need for them in lower level content causes this.. and it is a ZoS design decision. Its why there are so few "taunts" to control aggro. They really dont want tanks, or even dedicated healers. They want melee DPS with self heals and DPS/healers. Been that since launch.

Axoinus

A focus on DPS is typical for MMOs that do not want to discourage solo play.

Ackwalan

Worbel has said he wants to keep combat fast, that means high DPS. It's the slippery slop, the DPS keeps getting higher to combat the high DPS.

Magdalina

Well in 1.5 dungeons you could NOT bypass most bosses mechanics by high dps. You needed high dps to complete places but if you had high dps and bad situational awareness - lawl you're dead. If you didn't have a damn good healer? You were dead. No tank? Dead in most of the dungeons. Because things actually hurt. I remember asking healers if they needed help healing FG 2 last boss because it was actually legit hard and very few people could do it without help. Now I can cast one shield and dps on. Healer, what healer?

This is what you get when you nerf all the content to its current condition - there's no more challenge in completion, just in completing asap and dps rules the day.

The little content actually still challenging enough to hurt requires more than just high dps, which is how it should be. There're some issues with core game design but they're intensified a thousandfold by content's nerfs and player buffs(cp).

Izaki

Troneon wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

I don't get how having high DPS equals to cheesing content

Basically, you throw away healers and tanks.

All go DPS with shields or some other self survival skill.

Bypass most of the boss mechanics and just burst them down.

Even with the sustain nerf, it is still what most do.

Even worse is even if you have a good tank and good healer, if your group dps sucks, you can't complete content....which is what happens in most PUGS if you choose to play tank or healer...the DPS sucks...

Even worse, it means less people are playing with lower level players, even worse, the amount of people using the LFG Tool is less as they are only grouping with 4 DPS high level players to cheese through content...

So basically...go 4 DPS or go home.

If you need 4 DPS to burst down group dungeons means your DPS is low...

Tanks and healers enable DPS by the way.

ValkynSketha

You clearly don't run with good tanks and good healers.

Valkysas154

I don't mind helping low levels in a dungeon as long as they know the class it's when i get tanks that don't taunt or dps that do maybe 4kdps that it kinda bugs me, i mean i done mazz -normal- with level 25's no ideal if they had cp tho and beat it just fine,
Then i get into groups where my healer is doing 49% of total dmg on the boss -8kdps- and doing 100khps since they all stand in red or just get 1 shooted since they got 11khp, i am no elite player but man when a healer out dps's you that's just bad

lolo_01b16_ESO

Would be great if having high dps would make the fight faster, but at the same time more difficult.
For many bosses this could easiely be accomplished by tying add spawns and other mechanics to boss hp and not to a timer.

Just imagine:
- if Rakkhat would ignore his timer and instantly jump to the next platform when he took more than 5% damage on a short one or more than 10% on a long one.
- If Valariel would sommon her adds every time she lost 15% or 20% of her hp.
- If the planar inhibitor would spawn one portal for every 3% lost hp.
Additionally you could also add enrage mechanics, that kick in when you kill a boss way to fast:
- burned down Valkyn Skoria for more than 45% on a single platform -> too bad he now destroys all the platforms, good luck surviving the rest of the fight
- burned Nerien'eth to 40% with less than 3 add waves -> prepare for some unlimited ghost spawns, similar to the mannimarco main quest but with ghosts that don't die to a single heavy attack

This would be great for many players: High end players will still have a nice challenge, no matter how much dps they can do, but players with less dps could also deal with those bosses in a slow but steady fight.

DeHei

You need this for a 4 guys group.. 1 offtank, 2 dd, 1 offheal. This is the best setup you can choose for nearly everything in this game... If the Tank are able to deal 15-20k DPS, has a bit survivalskills.. The healer just heal passiv too most time to deal 20k+ DPS too and the 2 DDs are good too you are able to make every dungeon with speedrun.

ArchMikem

Troneon wrote: »

This is why almost everyone now is doing this to cheese through content.

1. Use highest class for DPS
2. Use BIS gear and sets or as close to as possible
3. Find three other players with same
4. Cheese through content
5. Never feel the pain of lack of dps again

I 99% of the time play alone, and on characters that are definitely not the best Race or builds, but instead are what I enjoy. So when I go through the content and struggle (even though I've been playing this game for 2 years now) I come to the Forum to express my experiences, and almost everyone here mocks me and just tells me to Git Gud and L2P.

Yeah, L2P like the Cheese I guess.

Zvorgin

When magsorc can cast a single shield for extreme survival why worry about anything but cranking out dps? Magic shields should be removed.