Why chapters are nails in the coffin of ESO

Galwylin

Buy to play. Its right there in their model. If you want to play, you will buy. You want to keep playing, you will buy some more. You will buy and buy and buy. Even they can't sell enough character slots for you to keep doing all the same stuff if you refuse to buy. It may not be chapters in the future but I would almost bet the days of ESO+ will give all future content are long past. It already doesn't and probably never will again.

olsborg

I agree, eso plus basicly doesnt mean you get the full experience anymore, and in a couple of years if you want to play and have access to the entire game means you have to buy 2 or 3 chapters in top of the base game, this quickly becomes too expensive for most ppl.

kunquatb16_ESO

olsborg wrote: »

I agree, eso plus basicly doesnt mean you get the full experience anymore, and in a couple of years if you want to play and have access to the entire game means you have to buy 2 or 3 chapters in top of the base game, this quickly becomes too expensive for most ppl.

Yea, there are many who'll say "but they'll do sales / deal ect" to claim no paywall. Without mentioning this directly punishes loyalty by letting new players get the same play experience for less.

Including it in ESO+, or at least the crownstore, is a simple, fair, and likely just, if not more, profitable in the long run.

Rosveen

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

First of all, Morrowind will not be a paywall for new players since it comes with the base game. Next chapter will come in bundle with Morrowind + Base game. This is how expansions work in all other MMOs. So your paywall argument makes no sense.

About ESO+ loosing value though... They added double bank to ESO+ and Gina mentioned that they are looking into other options to add value to it. We are yet to see if those words are true but for now ESO+ is good value to me. I still have access to all other DLCs and will have access to new dungeons from Q3 and the other DLC in Q4.

If morrowind comes with the base game, I have the base game, why don't I have morrowind?
Because I bought earlier, how does that make sense?

This means new players will be getting the same play experience for less money. Punishing customers for loyalty isn't a good business model.

As ESO+ gives access to less and less of the overall game, will it remain good value?

Literally everything works like this, early adopters pay a higher price. The barrier of entry for new players has to be lowered or we won't get any new players at all and the game will die. Nobody would pay $180 upfront to try out a new game.

You're not punished because by buying early you can also play early, do the content while it's fresh and relevant and own it for longer than people who join months later. Especially when it comes to group content, there's great value in being able to play with your friends immediately instead of being excluded while you wait for the price to drop.

kunquatb16_ESO

Rosveen wrote: »

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

First of all, Morrowind will not be a paywall for new players since it comes with the base game. Next chapter will come in bundle with Morrowind + Base game. This is how expansions work in all other MMOs. So your paywall argument makes no sense.

About ESO+ loosing value though... They added double bank to ESO+ and Gina mentioned that they are looking into other options to add value to it. We are yet to see if those words are true but for now ESO+ is good value to me. I still have access to all other DLCs and will have access to new dungeons from Q3 and the other DLC in Q4.

If morrowind comes with the base game, I have the base game, why don't I have morrowind?
Because I bought earlier, how does that make sense?

This means new players will be getting the same play experience for less money. Punishing customers for loyalty isn't a good business model.

As ESO+ gives access to less and less of the overall game, will it remain good value?

Literally everything works like this, early adopters pay a higher price. The barrier of entry for new players has to be lowered or we won't get any new players at all and the game will die. Nobody would pay $180 upfront to try out a new game.

You're not punished because by buying early you can also play early, do the content while it's fresh and relevant and own it for longer than people who join months later. Especially when it comes to group content, there's great value in being able to play with your friends immediately instead of being excluded while you wait for the price to drop.

Excluded, waiting for the price to drop is where I am now. Announcement was made after I paid latest sub, and I'm on a budget.

Including it in ESO+ would avoid both this issue, and the paywall issue, and the fairness issue all at once. And, as it doesn't depreciate ESO+, doesn't make it less likely people will choose to subscribe. I believe in fact, that it would increase subscription numbers.

idk

People have been calling out that ESO was dying for more than 3 years. I have seen it in other games as well that were still strong years later.

Just because someone personally disagrees with a change does not mean it is the end, or even the beginning of the end for the game.

Acrolas

I have more of an issue being coerced to buy standalone stories that don't really add anything worth discussing in the long run.

If A Song of Ice and Fire Online existed, I wouldn't want to buy a Dunk & Egg chapter every year just to get more features in ASOIAFO. And I wouldn't have to, because I don't think anyone running ASOIAFO would worry about babysitting noobs to the point where every piece of new content has to cater almost exclusively to brand-new players.

I'm starting to think I'm playing the game wrong, and that anyone who has managed to stay more than two weeks is somehow exploiting because you're supposed to get bored and leave. I mean, I didn't know coming in that playing ESO is supposed to have as high a turnover as employment at Kmart...

rotaugen454

ESO has had so many proclaimed "last nail in the coffin" that the top must just be nail heads.

kunquatb16_ESO

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

People have been calling out that ESO was dying for more than 3 years. I have seen it in other games as well that were still strong years later.

Just because someone personally disagrees with a change does not mean it is the end, or even the beginning of the end for the game.

And there have been game that appeared like they last a decade or more, only to fail after badly managing content releases, and putting up paywalls. There will be those who will claim "this won't happen to ESO, Bethsuda, zenimax ect ect"

And there are those who would say the opposite. That not the point.

What I present is a logical and reasoned argument as to why chapters being excluded from ESO+ and the crown store leads to an increasing paywall, or with "new player discounts" an increasing disincentive to subscribe, and unfairness for loyalty.

Your point doesn't refute any of that.

davey1107

A lecture about Morrowind pricing? Say it ain't so! Oddly this is THE VERY FIRST POST ON THIS SUBJECT. Congrats, you've made a point that absolutely no one has ever voiced before, ever.

I'd prefer it be free too, but look, ZOS has said they can provide ABC for the entry cost of the vanilla game. Sub or crowns gets you DEF. Then they want to expand the game farther, but have to charge for it.

You're still getting everything you were before, now with a schedule for ESO+ accessible dlc releases. Choose which parts of the game you want to access, then budget accordingly.

Elsonso

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

What I present is a logical and reasoned argument as to why chapters being excluded from ESO+ and the crown store leads to an increasing paywall, or with "new player discounts" an increasing disincentive to subscribe, and unfairness for loyalty

The game is B2P and that is what the Chapters really represent. As long as they make money doing this, and you can bet that Bethesda has a way to make money doing this for a couple of years, Chapters will not be the barrier that you think they will be. I think they will always sell the base game bundled with the Chapter, so new player entry will be relatively smooth. The main issue that I see is "Chapter Fatigue", where existing players get tired of forking over US$39.99 for a small update every year.

Eventually, Chapters will run their course, and they will roll out something else to get people spending money on the game. By this point though, the base game will probably be bundled with multiple Chapters (like Gold did with DLC), and that could form the new base game for whatever comes next.

As for ESO Plus, I think that actually retains value quite nicely with Chapters. They are focusing subscriptions less on DLC content and more on premium features. This is not good news for people who only subscribe for DLC, but it is great news for people who see DLC as just one of many benefits.

Kuwhar

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

People have been calling out that ESO was dying for more than 3 years. I have seen it in other games as well that were still strong years later.

Just because someone personally disagrees with a change does not mean it is the end, or even the beginning of the end for the game.

And there have been game that appeared like they last a decade or more, only to fail after badly managing content releases, and putting up paywalls. There will be those who will claim "this won't happen to ESO, Bethsuda, zenimax ect ect"

And there are those who would say the opposite. That not the point.

What I present is a logical and reasoned argument as to why chapters being excluded from ESO+ and the crown store leads to an increasing paywall, or with "new player discounts" an increasing disincentive to subscribe, and unfairness for loyalty.

Your point doesn't refute any of that.

Well your OP and title insinuates that its marking the beginning of the end so that was kind of your ppoint to begin with.

I do agree with you on the fact that it was a lame move and pretty grimy, but your premise of it starting the downfall of ESO is crazy talk

Sharee

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

Fewer player will be able to afford the whole game, and so fewer will join.

Players need the whole game to join?

Tandor

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

LadyLavina wrote: »

edit: deleted b/c i'd rather not touch this discussion

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

First of all, Morrowind will not be a paywall for new players since it comes with the base game. Next chapter will come in bundle with Morrowind + Base game. This is how expansions work in all other MMOs. So your paywall argument makes no sense.

About ESO+ loosing value though... They added double bank to ESO+ and Gina mentioned that they are looking into other options to add value to it. We are yet to see if those words are true but for now ESO+ is good value to me. I still have access to all other DLCs and will have access to new dungeons from Q3 and the other DLC in Q4.

If morrowind comes with the base game, I have the base game, why don't I have morrowind?
Because I bought earlier, how does that make sense?

This means new players will be getting the same play experience for less money. Punishing customers for loyalty isn't a good business model.

As ESO+ gives access to less and less of the overall game, will it remain good value?

Youre not a new player...Logic...............

I am therefore excluded from getting Morrowind with base game at a reduce price. Punished for loyalty, logic.

As an existing player you do get Morrowind as a cheaper upgrade to go with your existing base game than a new player will pay for both.

Tandor

olsborg wrote: »

I agree, eso plus basicly doesnt mean you get the full experience anymore, and in a couple of years if you want to play and have access to the entire game means you have to buy 2 or 3 chapters in top of the base game, this quickly becomes too expensive for most ppl.

Most people can't afford one chapter per annum?

I think you're confusing those people who cannot afford to pay for the whole game with those people who don't want to pay for the whole game but still expect to be able to play it all.

Bouldercleave

Oh, FFS. There are so many "nails in the coffin" already I'm surprised that you found room to put your special new nail.

I didn't even bother reading the post to be honest.

Juju_beans

Even subscription based games charge for expansion packs.
At least ESO+ is optional so you're free to just buy expansion packs and still play for free.

The company has to make it's money some way.

Banana

thomas1970b16_ESO wrote: »

I want better graphics!

and multiple core support

kunquatb16_ESO

Kuwhar wrote: »

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

People have been calling out that ESO was dying for more than 3 years. I have seen it in other games as well that were still strong years later.

Just because someone personally disagrees with a change does not mean it is the end, or even the beginning of the end for the game.

And there have been game that appeared like they last a decade or more, only to fail after badly managing content releases, and putting up paywalls. There will be those who will claim "this won't happen to ESO, Bethsuda, zenimax ect ect"

And there are those who would say the opposite. That not the point.

What I present is a logical and reasoned argument as to why chapters being excluded from ESO+ and the crown store leads to an increasing paywall, or with "new player discounts" an increasing disincentive to subscribe, and unfairness for loyalty.

Your point doesn't refute any of that.

Well your OP and title insinuates that its marking the beginning of the end so that was kind of your ppoint to begin with.

I do agree with you on the fact that it was a lame move and pretty grimy, but your premise of it starting the downfall of ESO is crazy talk

The title "why chapters are a poor long term marketing plan" would sink without a trace, it's the nature of forums that just saying it plainly does no good. I'm not saying "Morrowind is the end, it'll kill ESO", I'm saying it's the start of a slippery slope, it might be sure footed enough to be ok, but why go there in the first place.

I still think they should be included in ESO+, even if it means subs go up in cost slightly. But the idea the Sub don't get you the full game, crown don't either, and weirdly, money (unless you spend on subs AND crown AND chapters) doesn't either, being a sensible way holds no reason.

Zos need to be more upfront with the true cost of full game access on an ongoing basis, and not make it so you have to pay 3 ways to get it. I want to sub, and play. Not sub, browse online store outside of game, login buy from crownstore just to get that, just sub, and play.

Agobi

Was wondering when the weekly "the game is dying"- thread would pop up....not a moment too soon

ObsidianMichi

Guys, I have news for you. Morrowind hasn't launched yet. That's next week.

NewBlacksmurf

Why is anyone still subscribing and talking about it as required.

I get that some of the eso Plus benefits aren't otherwise accessible and in many cases required but....be smart and don't throw money away for something that isn't required if it bothers you in anyway.

Also....progression isn't like a typical MMO type. Play for 60 days maybe and stop for 60....rinse and repeat and you'll still be at cap even if your casual.

1. Stop buying crowns (you should have over 10k-20k if you're not equating them on cosmetics)
2. Stop subscribing
3. Only play if it's enjoyable or stop for a while (weeks, months or a year)

MLGProPlayer

Charging for DLC, expansions, and micro-transactions might become overwhelming.

Its main competitor, GW2, only charges for micro-transactions and expansions (DLC are free). You can also buy cash shop currency with in-game gold. It's a lot more accessible. With ESO, more and more things are becoming paywalled.

I'm not saying this will kill the game, but it might. They have a ton of revenue streams right now (more than any other MMO). Everything has a real-world cost to it in the game.

Wifeaggro13

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

I'd like to start with the acknowledgement that Zos has the right to use whatever business model it chooses. This however, does not make whatever business model they choose the right one.

The effect the chapters will have going forwards, will be to build up an increasing pay wall to new players. Player base growth is vital to the long term viability of any MMO.
Currently, this paywall is not too onerous for most, being base + chapter + subscription (or crowns) for the full game.
Next year, for new players, it will be base game + 2 chapters + subscription. Year on year, this situation will get worse. Fewer player will be able to afford the whole game, and so fewer will join. This reduces player base grown sharply. As the cost of the full game will become prohibitive for all but the wealthy, and soon after, people leaving will outpace those joining.

There is also an issue with the way they introduced chapters as an idea. The announcement that it would not be included in ESO+, or be available on the crown store was not made until after I paid my last subscription. I know that I am only one of a few for whom this is the case, that is no defence of it. Even if I do subscribe, which is in the balance right now, I will not do so before offsetting the cost of Morrowind.

Chapters are DLCs in all but name, and given the way in which it's been foisted upon players seems craven, mealy mouthed and dishonest. I'd like to reiterate, that Zos has the right to do this, but that this does not make right for them to do so.

If people don't speak out against this, what is to stop them from swapping out another DLC for a “optional content pack” go “it's not a DLC” and not make it available on the crownstore either next year? And then another the year after that?

I encourage other ESO+ members to offset the cost of the Morrowind DLC (calling it what it is) from their subscriptions. In the hopes Zos realize that depreciating rather than appreciating the ESO+ membership will only do their profitability harm. ESO+ Members are the steady stream lifeblood of ESO, and should be treated as such.

Additionally, not making chapters available on the crownstore seems directly target against those that have already bought crowns, with the understanding that all future DLC will be purchasable there. Morrowind is a DLC in all but name, and therefore should be available on the crownstore.

The nail in the proverbial coffin is the decision to just expand the map. The game play is not emerging , it has all but abondoned the development cycle. ZOS has cornered their cow and set to milking a player base that does not really play MMOs for the long haul.the simple fact that the AA system is this shallow non functioning part of the game that actually breaks the foundation the game mechanics rest upon. The generation of MMos that came before put out more content with less budget and still are going strong. This is pretty sad that from launch there is not one guild that survived and has its original core intact. Community dependent upon one another and individuals to have impact in that community was something that made MMOs great. That dynamic does not exist here. Its a churning base of casual players that only care cor the superfical crust of the game. The long term end game community is a reclusive thin player base . Not because that gamer has died away. It was because zos picked a cheaper easier cow to milk

Ulo

How many nails does ESO's coffin need?!

zaria

RoamingRiverElk wrote: »

I agree quite a bit with your post. Subscribers and those who buy crowns weren't treated very well when it comes to Morrowind.

One thing though, I'm not as concerned about the cumulative cost to new players over time because ZoS can always release new bundles of old content for a low price.

This, same as wow has done, you don't have to buy all the expansions, just the last or perhaps the two last.
Also ESO is nicer than WOW here, you can become emperor and beat vMoL without Morrowind,
Only thing its give is an new trial, battleground and a questing zone, you need it to get the battleground and trial set, buy they are not OP, neither is warden.
In WOW you need the last expansion for anything end game.

ProfesseurFreder

Oh, cut out the dramatics.

Everyone is entitled to their INFORMED opinion, but there's just no need for all the melodramatic show-offy cries of "IT'S THE ENNNND!!! THE ENNNNNNNNNNNND!!!"

IMHO, it's not only *not* the end, it's not even the end of the beginning.

Elsonso

Ulo wrote: »

How many nails does ESO's coffin need?!

We tried to count them, but people keep running off with them. The world will never know.

Galwylin

Oh, this game could go on for a long long time. There are so many people that treat ZOS like a charity. They don't expect nothing for their money. They just give because they'll so in love or something. Having played many different MMOs, this is the only one that has nothing in its so called expansion. Its just opening a new area of the map where once you finish the quests there, you might as well love looking at towers because sightseeing is all you'll have. Same really happened with Orsinium. Once I finished it, I think I've been back to try MA and craft some gear. Its just useless to me.

They didn't introduce all the things other MMOs do in expansions. A new class? We have four already doing the exact same thing the same way. No factions to work toward. No token system or new gear that makes the old obsolete. We've been made to have no more that we did at creation. In fact, our stats actually go down. Every thing about it is just ass backwards. Where's the new weapon skills. The new passives. Why can we join one of the Great Houses? Why does Vivec send us on our way knowing we're going right back to what we did months ago if we're making a new character and have been playing. ESO has committed the worse crime any game could. Its becoming boring. Morrowind just exposed how truly a shell it really is.

There are things about Morrowind I like just like the regular game. But its got to grow at some point. Really grow. Not the same thing the same way for years and years. If that keeps on going like this then it will be just those poor charity givers playing. The real actual game may just be the broken PvP and the rest is just useless window dressing to entice some open wallets. I mainly play PvE and its so incredible that after a great main story quest I get set to Auridon to do the same quests I did with my high elf before. I get to do them all again. For nothing but to do them on a different character. I'm collecting skill points to do some half hearted raids? Run vets? That's all there is after three years, the game is this stalled? And one is all you can manage in a new expansion, chapter, dlc or whatever you want to call it? Lazy.

Pops_ND_Irish

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

MoTeets wrote: »

Another priceless thread !
Notice how whiners will find fault with everything ! Cannot play game gotta find something to complain about
Game is fine. For every person who threatens to quit, 5 signup
Bye

Show where I threatened to quit. The closest you'll find is me questioning if I wish to continue subscribing. This is different to quitting.

Your right, the game IS fine, that isn't the point. The point is that ESO+ members are excluded from the "chapters", they should be included in ESO+, or crownstore.

And claiming that someone who has played continuously since day 1 of closed beta, can't play, only serves to undermine everything you said.

Sorry about the "quit" part. Misread