Why chapters are nails in the coffin of ESO

kunquatb16_ESO

I'd like to start with the acknowledgement that Zos has the right to use whatever business model it chooses. This however, does not make whatever business model they choose the right one.

The effect the chapters will have going forwards, will be to build up an increasing pay wall to new players. Player base growth is vital to the long term viability of any MMO.
Currently, this paywall is not too onerous for most, being base + chapter + subscription (or crowns) for the full game.
Next year, for new players, it will be base game + 2 chapters + subscription. Year on year, this situation will get worse. Fewer player will be able to afford the whole game, and so fewer will join. This reduces player base grown sharply. As the cost of the full game will become prohibitive for all but the wealthy, and soon after, people leaving will outpace those joining.

There is also an issue with the way they introduced chapters as an idea. The announcement that it would not be included in ESO+, or be available on the crown store was not made until after I paid my last subscription. I know that I am only one of a few for whom this is the case, that is no defence of it. Even if I do subscribe, which is in the balance right now, I will not do so before offsetting the cost of Morrowind.

Chapters are DLCs in all but name, and given the way in which it's been foisted upon players seems craven, mealy mouthed and dishonest. I'd like to reiterate, that Zos has the right to do this, but that this does not make right for them to do so.

If people don't speak out against this, what is to stop them from swapping out another DLC for a “optional content pack” go “it's not a DLC” and not make it available on the crownstore either next year? And then another the year after that?

I encourage other ESO+ members to offset the cost of the Morrowind DLC (calling it what it is) from their subscriptions. In the hopes Zos realize that depreciating rather than appreciating the ESO+ membership will only do their profitability harm. ESO+ Members are the steady stream lifeblood of ESO, and should be treated as such.

Additionally, not making chapters available on the crownstore seems directly target against those that have already bought crowns, with the understanding that all future DLC will be purchasable there. Morrowind is a DLC in all but name, and therefore should be available on the crownstore.

LukosCreyden

Well, one way they will likely get around the chapter issue is by releasing "ESO: Murkmire" (for example) next year, which will include the base game and both chapters, probably for the same price that Morrowind is going for in the shops. Repeat so on and so forth each year for each chapter release.

RoamingRiverElk

I agree quite a bit with your post. Subscribers and those who buy crowns weren't treated very well when it comes to Morrowind.

One thing though, I'm not as concerned about the cumulative cost to new players over time because ZoS can always release new bundles of old content for a low price.

LorenzoSober

Ahhhh... I remember these kind of posts when The Burning Crusade launched on World of Warcraft. In all honesty the Morrowind chapter does bring alot more gameplay time then any of the other DLC's. As why i treat it more like an expansion or a chapter in ZOS's case. Which is not considered a story addon like The Dark Brotherhood. But an entire new chapter on the base game.

Also in my honest opinion it is too soon to call out the in 2 years people wont be handling to pay it because the price will be too high.

(1 The game does not force you to buy the expansion to progress any further (excluding raids).
(2 World of Warcraft had dat exclusion and pay wall and actually turned out fine in their business model even though they charges full price for their expansion.

I do know where you are coming from thouh but imo this is just doom thoughts. Lets just wait and see what ZOS has up their sleeves to solve a potential problem like this.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Also keep in mind, almost every year of its exsistance eso has changed the way it wants to make money. We may never see another chapter.

Kiralyn2000

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Well, one way they will likely get around the chapter issue is by releasing "ESO: Murkmire" (for example) next year, which will include the base game and both chapters, probably for the same price that Morrowind is going for in the shops. Repeat so on and so forth each year for each chapter release.

Of course, that would be a problem for people who bought the base game first, then decided to get the expansions. I suppose they could make combination bundles.

But yeah, it's a possible issue.... in games like WoW, where each expansion is part of a continuing story w/increasing level caps/etc, it makes sense to have the "old" expansions get cheaper & get combined into the base game. But in ESO's model, where anything can be done in any order and it's all level scaled.... none of the content is "old"/outdated/outleveled, so how do they determine when/if to discount it? /ponder

kunquatb16_ESO

LorenzoSober wrote: »

Ahhhh... I remember these kind of posts when The Burning Crusade launched on World of Warcraft. In all honesty the Morrowind chapter does bring alot more gameplay time then any of the other DLC's. As why i treat it more like an expansion or a chapter in ZOS's case. Which is not considered a story addon like The Dark Brotherhood. But an entire new chapter on the base game.

Also in my honest opinion it is too soon to call out the in 2 years people wont be handling to pay it because the price will be too high.

(1 The game does not force you to buy the expansion to progress any further (excluding raids).
(2 World of Warcraft had dat exclusion and pay wall and actually turned out fine in their business model even though they charges full price for their expansion.

I do know where you are coming from thouh but imo this is just doom thoughts. Lets just wait and see what ZOS has up their sleeves to solve a potential problem like this.

These are different time, old bisiness models don't necessarily work today.

kunquatb16_ESO

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Well, one way they will likely get around the chapter issue is by releasing "ESO: Murkmire" (for example) next year, which will include the base game and both chapters, probably for the same price that Morrowind is going for in the shops. Repeat so on and so forth each year for each chapter release.

So, best to opt out till they stop releasing them, as you'll get them way cheaper later. As others have said, they not required for advancement, so, why buy them now?

LorenzoSober

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Well, one way they will likely get around the chapter issue is by releasing "ESO: Murkmire" (for example) next year, which will include the base game and both chapters, probably for the same price that Morrowind is going for in the shops. Repeat so on and so forth each year for each chapter release.

So, best to opt out till they stop releasing them, as you'll get them way cheaper later. As others have said, they not required for advancement, so, why buy them now?

If you can wait that long, sure it is probably the cheapest way to upgrade the game. Like they did this for almost every MMO to date.

kunquatb16_ESO

RoamingRiverElk wrote: »

I agree quite a bit with your post. Subscribers and those who buy crowns weren't treated very well when it comes to Morrowind.

One thing though, I'm not as concerned about the cumulative cost to new players over time because ZoS can always release new bundles of old content for a low price.

Seem unfair to the longer standing membership, they'll either be excluded from content for a duration of play, or be paying more than new players for the same game experience.

kunquatb16_ESO

LorenzoSober wrote: »

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Well, one way they will likely get around the chapter issue is by releasing "ESO: Murkmire" (for example) next year, which will include the base game and both chapters, probably for the same price that Morrowind is going for in the shops. Repeat so on and so forth each year for each chapter release.

So, best to opt out till they stop releasing them, as you'll get them way cheaper later. As others have said, they not required for advancement, so, why buy them now?

If you can wait that long, sure it is probably the cheapest way to upgrade the game. Like they did this for almost every MMO to date.

I was a subscriber, as this gave me access to the full game, as is the case for any good MMO. It no longer gives me full access, nor does the crownstore, nor do crowns.

kevlarto_ESO

They don't make these game because they love us they are for profit companies, I am not a fan of chapters and small content dlc's I prefer the real expansion that give me huge growth in a game and hundreds of hours of new content, and I expect to pay for these things if I like the game.

To much expectations for free these days, and free to play and even buy to play to be has not done the mmo world any good, we the player end up with weak content poor customer service, and just not the best game we could be getting, I prefer a sub as well. If you have played mmo's as long as I have and seen the progression and now the decline you would really understand what I mean games today lack good in depth content they are to easy do not promote community, but players have changed over the years as well a lot of the cool things from the past would most likely never work today.

If your a fan of the game and enjoy I do not understand what the problem is about supporting it and buying the new content, I am very critical of ZOS, because they are not hard enough on cheaters and exploiters, I also think the team of lamebut/wobble are horrible at what they do, but I enjoy the pve and the stories thanks to people like the Lore Master. I have enjoyed the stories in Morrowind so far.

kunquatb16_ESO

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

They don't make these game because they love us they are for profit companies, I am not a fan of chapters and small content dlc's I prefer the real expansion that give me huge growth in a game and hundreds of hours of new content, and I expect to pay for these things if I like the game.

To much expectations for free these days, and free to play and even buy to play to be has not done the mmo world any good, we the player end up with weak content poor customer service, and just not the best game we could be getting, I prefer a sub as well. If you have played mmo's as long as I have and seen the progression and now the decline you would really understand what I mean games today lack good in depth content they are to easy do not promote community, but players have changed over the years as well a lot of the cool things from the past would most likely never work today.

If your a fan of the game and enjoy I do not understand what the problem is about supporting it and buying the new content, I am very critical of ZOS, because they are not hard enough on cheaters and exploiters, I also think the team of lamebut/wobble are horrible at what they do, but I enjoy the pve and the stories thanks to people like the Lore Master. I have enjoyed the stories in Morrowind so far.

It's not so much about enjoyment. The problem is that one of the major feature and reasons for getting ESO+ is full access to the game. The value of ESO+ has been reduced by this no longer being the case, but the price of ESO+ has not been reduced. Why this is a problem is that it now gets you less, but does not cost less. Sub fee effectively increase for full game access.

Is there anything other way than player voices speaking out against it to stop them doing this with another DLC swap out? from putting up other "not DLC honest" paywalls?

staracino_ESO

I agree with this; especially the part about subscribers being the lifeblood of the game. We give them anywhere between $155.88 - $179.88 annually just to be subbed. This is on top of any other purchases we may or may not make. Morrowind, however, is over the top. I have never seen a system where the customers paying a steady, recurring fee are not the premium members of the game with all of the perks; and I find that odd. All 'chapters' should:

1) Be reduced in price or increased in content (Morrowind as-is does not have the value, from what I have seen)
2) Be available for crowns
3) Be part of the ESO+ program
4) Stop being called 'chapters'

I certainly hope this approach to content delivery goes down in history as a failed attempt, and is abandoned. It has driven away loyal subscribers and created a rift in the playerbase. (anyone who was around when they announced the pricing details will know what I am talking about) The game already has a system of haves and have-nots, but this move created a tiered system that saw the players fractured further into the have-nots(base game), have-somes(morrowind, no sub), have-more-than-mosts(base+sub) and have-alls(morrowind+sub).

I am very curious to see what sort of things Zenimax announces in the coming months, both in regards to new content as well as business decisions. I believe they are at an important crossroads and their decisions will have a deep impact on their future success.

thomas1970b16_ESO

I want better graphics!

Rosveen

I'm curious how they're going to justify the price of future chapters. They can't add a new class every year, so what will make them different from other DLC?

kunquatb16_ESO

thomas1970b16_ESO wrote: »

I want better graphics!

Lol, ESO is a beautiful game. Some animation stuff is a touch sketchy, but still a great looking game.

Asardes

The older chapters will most likely be discounted once new ones are released, just like they did with the DLCs. The base game can be found heavily discounted as well. Subscription is not required to play and the DLCs can still be bought with crowns. Crown packs are also found heavily discounted once every few months. And on top of that the game has a lot of content for the money compared to a single player one that costs $40 and you finish it in one week tops.

kunquatb16_ESO

Asardes wrote: »

The older chapters will most likely be discounted once new ones are released, just like they did with the DLCs. The base game can be found heavily discounted as well. Subscription is not required to play and the DLCs can still be bought with crowns. Crown packs are also found heavily discounted once every few months. And on top of that the game has a lot of content for the money compared to a single player one that costs $40 and you finish it in one week tops.

It not about whether you have to subscribe, it's about subscription being depreciated while cost remains unadjusted. ESO+ used to give full access to the game, it no longer does, further "chapters" will only worsen this.

DLC can't be bought for crowns if Zos decide to not call them DLC. they've done it once, why not 2, 3 or 4 times?

Relying on discounts as a central part of your business model is risky at best, tends to cause funding spikes and troughs, and makes forward planning far more difficult. Subscription help even out the income stream, making for a more stable and reliable business model.

By depreciating ESO+, Zos are making it less like people will choose to subscribe.

NoFlash

I've yet to buy a house and my sub runs out and I renew it randomly. The people is the only reason to keep playin this game imo. From a growth and business standpoint, I believe they are doing it all wrong and I have no suggestions that could sway them otherwise.

Pops_ND_Irish

Another priceless thread !
Notice how whiners will find fault with everything ! Cannot play game gotta find something to complain about
Game is fine. For every person who threatens to quit, 5 signup
Bye

Gargath

Rosveen wrote: »

I'm curious how they're going to justify the price of future chapters. They can't add a new class every year, so what will make them different from other DLC?

They don't need to justify anything, it's the community of yes-men who will always confirm any price is good enough, simply because this is ESO and supporting ZOS is a must .

kunquatb16_ESO

MoTeets wrote: »

Another priceless thread !
Notice how whiners will find fault with everything ! Cannot play game gotta find something to complain about
Game is fine. For every person who threatens to quit, 5 signup
Bye

Show where I threatened to quit. The closest you'll find is me questioning if I wish to continue subscribing. This is different to quitting.

Your right, the game IS fine, that isn't the point. The point is that ESO+ members are excluded from the "chapters", they should be included in ESO+, or crownstore.

And claiming that someone who has played continuously since day 1 of closed beta, can't play, only serves to undermine everything you said.

jircris11

Sadly this is a trend on the forums, we have seen countless threads such as this and the replies tend to all be the same. some agreeing others flat out insulting and then the rest much like my self who are "meh" about it. I love eso, i will continue to sub and to buy chapters as it comes out. Compared to other mmos it is a rather cheap model. SWTOR locks content behind subscription, WoWs expansions offer about the same and cost 10-20 bucks more. And then you got game that give the content for free like gw2 with a random expansion thrown in there like HoT.

Bottom line is this, ZoS will do what makes them money, and not nearly as many people will quit due to it as you think. Most forum goers only represent a small portion of the over all player base. So in the end there is no nail in the coffin for eso, perhaps for your drive to play it but that is about it.

As for your eso+ complaint, look at it this way we pay 15 a month and get 15 USD in crowns, all DLC (chapters excluded), a larger bank, bottomless crafting bag, gold and xp boost, unlimited dye use. The crowns alone are enough for me and honestly if you want every bit of content they come out with to be part of eso+ then they should charge 20 bucks a month for eso+. Most threads about eso+ tend to be people wanting more for a little amount, if they increase what we get then the price goes up as well or they will lose too much money.

Tandor

If the argument was going to be made that chapters were nails in the coffin of ESO it would be necessary first to establish that the game was dying and secondly that the only chapter released to date (and therefore the only evidence on which to base the argument) was a commercial failure. Not only is the game very much alive and continuing to go from strength to strength, but Morrowind is clearly a commercial success judging by the number of people in early access and who only represent a small proportion of the overall number of people who will be playing Morrowind across the platforms when it actually launches.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Also keep in mind, almost every year of its exsistance eso has changed the way it wants to make money. We may never see another chapter.

This I think is relevant. ZOS hasn't picked a strategy and stuck with it long enough to really see it pan out, and until and unless they keep the same strategy for 3-5 years, I don't think we can really predict how it's going to work out in the long term.

Khenarthi

I can afford the sub and a chapter each year, considering the huge amount of entertainment I get from this game. With Morrowind the perceived value of the subscription was shaken up a bit, but on the other hand, they gave us more bank space. Hopefully ZOS will continue to add perks to ESO+ to keep it attractive.

As someone above said, the business model keeps changing, so who knows what next year will bring? As long as the game remains fun and engaging (and until TES6 comes out), I'll stick around.

kunquatb16_ESO

jircris11 wrote: »

Sadly this is a trend on the forums, we have seen countless threads such as this and the replies tend to all be the same. some agreeing others flat out insulting and then the rest much like my self who are "meh" about it. I love eso, i will continue to sub and to buy chapters as it comes out. Compared to other mmos it is a rather cheap model. SWTOR locks content behind subscription, WoWs expansions offer about the same and cost 10-20 bucks more. And then you got game that give the content for free like gw2 with a random expansion thrown in there like HoT.

Bottom line is this, ZoS will do what makes them money, and not nearly as many people will quit due to it as you think. Most forum goers only represent a small portion of the over all player base. So in the end there is no nail in the coffin for eso, perhaps for your drive to play it but that is about it.

Quitting doesn't need to increase if an ever increasing paywall decreases new joiners to a lower number then those that leave. And if ESO+ is depreciated, fewer will subscribe. The more they try to increase income from chapters, the fewer subs they'll get, and it runs an increasing risk of ESO becoming P2W. The more "must have" bop chapter gear there is, the more P2W-esque ESO will become.

These are all unhealthy trends.

Drogo50

What is it about MMO players which results in this entitlement thinking?

kunquatb16_ESO

Tandor wrote: »

If the argument was going to be made that chapters were nails in the coffin of ESO it would be necessary first to establish that the game was dying and secondly that the only chapter released to date (and therefore the only evidence on which to base the argument) was a commercial failure. Not only is the game very much alive and continuing to go from strength to strength, but Morrowind is clearly a commercial success judging by the number of people in early access and who only represent a small proportion of the overall number of people who will be playing Morrowind across the platforms when it actually launches.

My argument against chapter is clear, 1 they will become an increasing paywall, 2, there exclusion from ESO+ depreciates ESO+, therefore making it less likely people will choose ESO+. Additionally, depended on chapter content, such as BOP gear, chapter run the risk of making the game P2W. Morrowind may be a short to medium term success, that doesn't mean chapters are a long term winning strategy.

Proving that Morrowind is a success doesn't prove that chapters in the long term will be. Or that they won't have a overall negative affect on profitability. Short term thinking is the downfall of many an MMO

Gargath

Tandor wrote: »

but Morrowind is clearly a commercial success judging by the number of people in early access and who only represent a small proportion of the overall number of people who will be playing Morrowind across the platforms when it actually launches.

Have you checked how many players actually play warden class in your guilds, before you named it a commercial success? I see maybe 7-10 % the overall guldies online. Either the warden isn't that popular as ZOS predicted, or the number of copies sold isn't as high as people think. The amount of wardens online is some indicator of Morrowind popularity as the warden was the main novelty.