Vivec EU-PC

ToRelax

@LarsS if you really want to investigate DC's alleged obsession with Chalman, it would help actually having data on the number of times it was captured by different factions and time held by each.

LarsS

ToRelax my objective was to get data on the broader picture who is DC and EP attacking and the data is clear on that point. But if the Chalman myth was true that Most DC go there there would no chance to take the AD keeps.

ToRelax

LarsS wrote: »

ToRelax my objective was to get data on the broader picture who is DC and EP attacking and the data is clear on that point. But if the Chalman myth was true that Most DC go there there would no chance to take the AD keeps.

Honestly, in my experience EP just doesn't care that much about holding Chal if they're pushing AD, and DC doesn't always push beyond Chal in force; I mean, that's the point of this myth, same with DC Brindle. But whether there is actually something behind that statistically, idk...

Alphaa

Without AD morning caps EP would be 2nd and DC 1st in the campaign scores.

As soon as UF disband the group all AD's pressure goes from the map and they get squashed.

Guild recruitment seems very hard work on EP vivec, not sure how the other alliances find it?

AbraXuSeXile

Pugs go only in straight lines. AD have the advantage of not having a straight line. If a guild group takes a keep not in the line the pugs will go there and make a new line. They are essentially lemmings.

Biro123

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Pugs go only in straight lines. AD have the advantage of not having a straight line. If a guild group takes a keep not in the line the pugs will go there and make a new line. They are essentially lemmings.

Its true.

I'm fairly sure that fairly large part of the PVP population play solo, but also play for the campaign. They cannot open up new attacks(sieges), change direction alone - that needs a group.

But I think groups tend to become too 'internal'. I mean a group could be working FOR the faction - but if all their comms are restricted to those group members, then they are not working 'With' the faction. Honestly, if we saw more 'my group is gonna hit x' in /zone, there would be a lot more direction-changes going on as quite a lot of those soloers are likely to go and support them.

And many of the soloers are solid players, and provide a very vital role in attacks - either adding to sieges or protecting them, suppressing wall-defenders, blocking enemy re-inforcements etc.. as well as just generally adding to numbers and killing the bad-guys.

In-fact I saw a good instance a couple of weeks ago of what can happen without them. There was a very organised EP group who took Glade one day. They all sieged the outer with multiple sieges each and it quickly went down - same with the inner before any defence could arrive (apart from a couple of fast-moving soloers). There were maybe 5 defenders who couldn't hold the doors.
They opened the inner and in a very organised way did a circle upstairs and capped the flags - all very quick, very slick.

But 2 of those defenders (me and another guy) hid once they took it. The other 3 saw us hiding and didn't release.

The attackers - again, all very organised, doing exactly what their leader told them to , all went out to repair - and ended up defending the outer against a DC counter attack. All very well co-ordinated, healing and rezzing each other.

While inside the keep.. we rezzed the dead guys and took it from inside - right behind them.

What was missing from their attack? Those soloers - the ones who spread out from the mob, roam around, check all corners, tempt gankers etc.. Without these on the enemy team, we were able to hide inside and start capping.
Without these outside defending (and therefore rezzing inside the keep) - nobody saw us.

Group leaders in Cyro would do well to remember these guys - and that just a little communication in /zone can get their help - free of charge :-)

Nermy

Biro123 wrote: »

But I think groups tend to become too 'internal'. I mean a group could be working FOR the faction - but if all their comms are restricted to those group members, then they are not working 'With' the faction. Honestly, if we saw more 'my group is gonna hit x' in /zone, there would be a lot more direction-changes going on as quite a lot of those soloers are likely to go and support them.

One of the main reasons we don't shout out in zone and tend to keep our communication internal between a few guilds is multi-faction guilds. There's always a fear that if I say in zone, 'WJ is heading for Drake' - there will be a huge welcoming committee because a player on their EP toon has told all his guildies who are on their AD toons. Same for sieging a keep, I will only shout in zone what is under siege and where AFTER it goes UA.

Biro123 wrote: »

And many of the soloers are solid players, and provide a very vital role in attacks - either adding to sieges or protecting them, suppressing wall-defenders, blocking enemy reinforcements etc.. as well as just generally adding to numbers and killing the bad-guys.

Couldn't agree with you more and they do an invaluable job as your example shows.

Biro123 wrote: »

Group leaders in Cyro would do well to remember these guys - and that just a little communication in /zone can get their help - free of charge :-)

We are trying to pool these guys together by having Wabba lfg groups which we can then coordinate with the main guild groups. I have to say, a lot of the guys we pick up are good PvPers and follow the crown like good little randoms... lol!

Biro123

I think people can worry about the spy thing too much.

Is it really worth losing so much /zone co-ordination all the time vs the risk that on the odd occasion a spy is listening and gets reacted to.? And do people really care about the campaign that much nowadays to bother with spying?
I've honestly never seen/heard anybody say 'faction X is gonna attack here' in the last 2 years. of. that doesn't mean it doesn't happen - but I kind of think its rare.

I guess if it does happen too often - you could always spread a little misinformation..... :-)

I don't think getting these guys to group is a solution, Nermy. I can't speak for all, but for my part I don't group for a number of reasons - lack of a group willing to take me isn't one :-)

Its mostly because when ungrouped, nobody is relying on me, I can go AFK when I choose without warning. I can fall asleep, go where I want, when I want and do what I want in the way I want.
All this is because I'm naturally a responsible team-player and joining a group makes me feel like I need to be a reliable member and not let the leader/group down. I simply can't be one of those who joins a group and ignores the leader. But Wife n Kids means I can't be reliable.

Basically there are those who simply don't want to group for whatever reason but would appreciate a bit more communication :-)

AyelineESO

Biro123 wrote: »

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Pugs go only in straight lines. AD have the advantage of not having a straight line. If a guild group takes a keep not in the line the pugs will go there and make a new line. They are essentially lemmings.

Its true.

I'm fairly sure that fairly large part of the PVP population play without group, but also play for the campaign. They cannot open up new attacks(sieges), change direction alone - that needs a group.

But I think groups tend to become too 'internal'. I mean a group could be working FOR the faction - but if all their comms are restricted to those group members, then they are not working 'With' the faction. Honestly, if we saw more 'my group is gonna hit x' in /zone, there would be a lot more direction-changes going on as quite a lot of those ungrouped players are likely to go and support them.

And many of the ungrouped players are solid players, and provide a very vital role in attacks - either adding to sieges or protecting them, suppressing wall-defenders, blocking enemy re-inforcements etc.. as well as just generally adding to numbers and killing the bad-guys.

In-fact I saw a good instance a couple of weeks ago of what can happen without them. There was a very organised EP group who took Glade one day. They all sieged the outer with multiple sieges each and it quickly went down - same with the inner before any defence could arrive (apart from a couple of fast-moving ungrouped players). There were maybe 5 defenders who couldn't hold the doors.
They opened the inner and in a very organised way did a circle upstairs and capped the flags - all very quick, very slick.

But 2 of those defenders (me and another guy) hid once they took it. The other 3 saw us hiding and didn't release.

The attackers - again, all very organised, doing exactly what their leader told them to , all went out to repair - and ended up defending the outer against a DC counter attack. All very well co-ordinated, healing and rezzing each other.

While inside the keep.. we rezzed the dead guys and took it from inside - right behind them.

What was missing from their attack? Those ungrouped players - the ones who spread out from the mob, roam around, check all corners, tempt gankers etc.. Without these on the enemy team, we were able to hide inside and start capping.
Without these outside defending (and therefore rezzing inside the keep) - nobody saw us.

Group leaders in Cyro would do well to remember these guys - and that just a little communication in /zone can get their help - free of charge :-)

fixed a few mistakes in there. A solo player is something completely different than you describe. Ungrouped but close to other players of your faction isnt solo, its simply being ungrouped.

But I agree that those people can really turn the tide. Especially when they set up sieges in clever locations, do things like you mentioned etc etc.

Blobsky

Meanwhile us hardcore solo players have some mentally challenged 24man group chasing us around a rock in no mans land

Biro123

AyelineESO wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Pugs go only in straight lines. AD have the advantage of not having a straight line. If a guild group takes a keep not in the line the pugs will go there and make a new line. They are essentially lemmings.

Its true.

I'm fairly sure that fairly large part of the PVP population play without group, but also play for the campaign. They cannot open up new attacks(sieges), change direction alone - that needs a group.

But I think groups tend to become too 'internal'. I mean a group could be working FOR the faction - but if all their comms are restricted to those group members, then they are not working 'With' the faction. Honestly, if we saw more 'my group is gonna hit x' in /zone, there would be a lot more direction-changes going on as quite a lot of those ungrouped players are likely to go and support them.

And many of the ungrouped players are solid players, and provide a very vital role in attacks - either adding to sieges or protecting them, suppressing wall-defenders, blocking enemy re-inforcements etc.. as well as just generally adding to numbers and killing the bad-guys.

In-fact I saw a good instance a couple of weeks ago of what can happen without them. There was a very organised EP group who took Glade one day. They all sieged the outer with multiple sieges each and it quickly went down - same with the inner before any defence could arrive (apart from a couple of fast-moving ungrouped players). There were maybe 5 defenders who couldn't hold the doors.
They opened the inner and in a very organised way did a circle upstairs and capped the flags - all very quick, very slick.

But 2 of those defenders (me and another guy) hid once they took it. The other 3 saw us hiding and didn't release.

The attackers - again, all very organised, doing exactly what their leader told them to , all went out to repair - and ended up defending the outer against a DC counter attack. All very well co-ordinated, healing and rezzing each other.

While inside the keep.. we rezzed the dead guys and took it from inside - right behind them.

What was missing from their attack? Those ungrouped players - the ones who spread out from the mob, roam around, check all corners, tempt gankers etc.. Without these on the enemy team, we were able to hide inside and start capping.
Without these outside defending (and therefore rezzing inside the keep) - nobody saw us.

Group leaders in Cyro would do well to remember these guys - and that just a little communication in /zone can get their help - free of charge :-)

fixed a few mistakes in there. A solo player is something completely different than you describe. Ungrouped but close to other players of your faction isnt solo, its simply being ungrouped.

But I agree that those people can really turn the tide. Especially when they set up sieges in clever locations, do things like you mentioned etc etc.

I was waiting for someone to do that :-).

I don't really make the distinction. Being ungrouped gives the freedom to zerg-surf or go off alone. Many of these guys do both.

WeyounTM

So this is the thread where everyone keeps complaining about the playstyle of others, eh? You all need to remember that Cyrodiil is open world PvP but moreso AvAvA. And you will get killed in lots of different ways. You will get zerged down, small-scaled and obliterated in seconds by the 1%-Supergodmode-Player. Speaking of which....

Blobsky wrote: »

Meanwhile us hardcore solo players have some mentally challenged 24man group chasing us around a rock in no mans land

Calling someone or a group mentally challenged is pretty rude, don't you think @Blobsky ? In fact seeing you write this openly in the forums makes me wonder if you understand why they are chasing guys like you in the first place.
From what I can gather you are one of the players who actually run around in Cyrodiil in semi-God mode. You will be pretty hard to kill in the first place and I bet if I would look through your videos I will find some where you pride yourself in killing multiple "foes"...
But what do you folks actually expect? That all players who actually are inferior to you just keep on coming one by one to try and kill you solo? That aint gonna happen since this game has such a huge delta in skill, gear, CP and the likes. Yet we all are on the same battlefield called Cyrodiil. So the only option those lesser skilled player have is to group up, seek the "security" of a Zerg and then chase after you to get you down in one form or another.

In many other competitive games (that are not basically AvAvA) those prideful 1vers1000 players would get an MMR attached on their toons. You would eventually only encounter people of your own skill level...not just people that spam snipe or light attacks or hard casting c-frags. You all like to prey on the lesser skilled players and when they chase you down as a pack to your favorite tower or rock they are the "mentally challenged" ones.....interesting.

Blobsky

WeyounTM wrote: »

So this is the thread where everyone keeps complaining about the playstyle of others, eh? You all need to remember that Cyrodiil is open world PvP but moreso AvAvA. And you will get killed in lots of different ways. You will get zerged down, small-scaled and obliterated in seconds by the 1%-Supergodmode-Player. Speaking of which....

Blobsky wrote: »

Meanwhile us hardcore solo players have some mentally challenged 24man group chasing us around a rock in no mans land

Calling someone or a group mentally challenged is pretty rude, don't you think @Blobsky ? In fact seeing you write this openly in the forums makes me wonder if you understand why they are chasing guys like you in the first place.
From what I can gather you are one of the players who actually run around in Cyrodiil in semi-God mode. You will be pretty hard to kill in the first place and I bet if I would look through your videos I will find some where you pride yourself in killing multiple "foes"...
But what do you folks actually expect? That all players who actually are inferior to you just keep on coming one by one to try and kill you solo? That aint gonna happen since this game has such a huge delta in skill, gear, CP and the likes. Yet we all are on the same battlefield called Cyrodiil. So the only option those lesser skilled player have is to group up, seek the "security" of a Zerg and then chase after you to get you down in one form or another.

In many other competitive games (that are not basically AvAvA) those prideful 1vers1000 players would get an MMR attached on their toons. You would eventually only encounter people of your own skill level...not just people that spam snipe or light attacks or hard casting c-frags. You all like to prey on the lesser skilled players and when they chase you down as a pack to your favorite tower or rock they are the "mentally challenged" ones.....interesting.

Not at all mate, I understand why they try kill me... But what I don't understand is why they chase me for 15-30mins across the entire map leaving all objectives behind. I have a video somewhere on my channel where the entire bigboss raid chases my magblade a full lap of the Emp keeps -_-

WeyounTM

Well if you get ripped to pieces often enough or in Boss'es case get nasty guilds named after you....you might get sorta thin-skinned too and do stupid things in the end. I dont know him personally...only that he keeps on collecting all those players without a group and for his persistance i applaud him. BTW I am playing on the AD side of things...
I have lead smaller pug-groups in a different game and I am way too old to get raged by getting killed. It is a game afterall and a hobby and should be fun. And as a whole community we shouldnt let our egos dictate our behaviour. Treat other players with respect and you will be (most likely) be respected too. In case the others dont respect you....just ignore them and move on. Life is to short for getting annoyed in a videogame.

elfantasmo

I see no Variables factored into this theory, you cannot accurately hypothesize based on the data you have. Therefore your point is moot. A single variable as an example could be the fact that AD owns Chally AND Aleswell every single morning(cap). Sorry if someone else already highlighted this I’m on my Nokia 5110.

LarsS

elfantasmo wrote: »

I see no Variables factored into this theory, you cannot accurately hypothesize based on the data you have. Therefore your point is moot. A single variable as an example could be the fact that AD owns Chally AND Aleswell every single morning(cap). Sorry if someone else already highlighted this I’m on my Nokia 5110.

If you refere to my keep capture date, let me clarify. I only counted captures in enemy home lands. So DC and EP captures of there own home keep are not included in the data. The conclusion that EP prefere to go on DC home keeps even when AD leads, while DC most times go on AD home keeps is based on good data.

Enslaved

LarsS wrote: »

There is some sayings among DC; like all DC go to Chalman and EP are always going on DC, as a scientist by profession I decided to collect some data. I am on line at primetime 19-24 cet most days and and intermittently between 07-19 cet. I counted all enemy keeps (and outposts) DC and EP owend when I logged on and all captures while online. Data collection lasted from Monday until Sunday last week.

This is the result
DC captured 91 AD keeps and 46 EP keeps.
EP captured 47 AD keeps and 59 DC keeps.

Analysis
The DC Chalman hypotesis is disproved, DC mostly fights AD. Most DC Guild do infact go on AD, most of the time.
The hypotesis that EP preferably attacks DC is supported by the data.

Conclusion
EP thus tend to help AD to win the campaign.

Out of 91 AD keeps 76 were Brindle.

Enslaved

Blobsky wrote: »

Meanwhile us hardcore solo players have some mentally challenged 24man group chasing us around a rock in no mans land

did they get you?

Nermy

Hehe... @LarsS I think you're going to have to capture some more data on that one, as I pointed out to you, you never see when WJ is pushing AD at Fara or Blood only Ales and Dragon so I'm not sure your data holds up. Anyway, who cares, last night DC were leading and EP were second, with an EP Emp to boot (and also a Wabbajack member - @Blaqk_Assassin) and AD were languishing in 3rd.

Was great fun on Vivec last night and I even stayed up long past my bedtime... /RAWR!!!

LarsS

I have enough data, its my profession after all. Enslaved Brindel is not the explanation. Nermy I am not blaming WJ, fact still is that EP prefere to go on DC more often than on AD. We all know that there is more AD around especially in the morning, thus they win the campaigns. This could be balanced to some extent if the underdogs followed the logic of the 3 alliance war, that is go on the leader. I have seen that a few times on Azura so its is possible and creates a more entertaining game for all.

Enslaved

LarsS wrote: »

I have enough data, its my profession after all. Enslaved Brindel is not the explanation. Nermy I am not blaming WJ, fact still is that EP prefere to go on DC more often than on AD. We all know that there is more AD around especially in the morning, thus they win the campaigns. This could be balanced to some extent if the underdogs followed the logic of the 3 alliance war, that is go on the leader. I have seen that a few times on Azura so its is possible and creates a more entertaining game for all.

When I log in PvP from time to time, I see DC at Chal and Kings. EP should push u 24/7 if u ask me.

Nermy

@LarS I know you're not blaming WJ mate. Truth is we always hit Dragon to annoy you and Hungry Wolves, always triggers you guys and we always have great fights...

LarsS

Enslaved, never denied that DC goes to Chal but do you ever look at the South part of the map?

Nermy you dont annoy us, we prefer roe and other AD keeps most of the time. I would like to fight WJ more often at Fare like we did a few days ago, but as I said earlier this is not about guilds but about campaign logic.

Nermy

LarsS wrote: »

Enslaved, never denied that DC goes to Chal but do you ever look at the South part of the map?

Nermy you dont annoy us, we prefer roe and other AD keeps most of the time. I would like to fight WJ more often at Fare like we did a few days ago, but as I said earlier this is not about guilds but about campaign logic.

I know but it's so hard to get everyone going the same way, in so far as fighting for a campaign.

Did you win that fight? I think we got you last night, at least you were on my kill counter...

LarsS

At fare we did win, we killed a lot of ad to. Yesterday night we lost we were just a small group at that time 8 I think.

Nermy

LarsS wrote: »

At fare we did win, we killed a lot of ad to. Yesterday night we lost we were just a small group at that time 8 I think.

We killed a lot of AD last night too. Had a full raid until quite late.

Blobsky

Enslaved wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

Meanwhile us hardcore solo players have some mentally challenged 24man group chasing us around a rock in no mans land

did they get you?

Unfoetunately knowing the average zerg, if they didn't I'd still be running

exiars10

Last night (25.12.) was insane ! The best experience I ever had!

Played between 23 and 2.30 and gave up to sleep. Castle Alessia was constantly attacked by reds, and then came blue. No matter what, even when we were cut out and coudn‘t tp, we managed to repeal invasion after invasion. I think there was over a two hours bloody battle just around Alessia bridge, several times three way. Blues and reds twice fell under bridge – mass graves…

One time red army came with 100+ on Alessia castle, I looked like it‘s over but almost no siege weapons… Epic fail as we had a lot of siege weapons, lol. Zone chat was filled with calls to Alessia. Unfortunately, we never managed to take Sejanus Outpost :-/. It was taken by blues from reds but every time we managed to push to it, reds showed up and hit from side or back so we had to fight on two fronts.

Also big thanks to unknow heroe(s) who twice set up forward camp in Alessia Castle – if not, we would lose it.

LarsS

Got a whisper from an AD player bored of nightcapping. Gave him the advice to play DC More balance in the morning would be fun.

Biro123

LarsS wrote: »

Got a whisper from an AD player bored of nightcapping. Gave him the advice to play DC More balance in the morning would be fun.

Only took him 2 years?