noCP The Definitive PvP Experience per ZOS?

Rickter

Not sure why this isnt getting a lot of discussion right now but looks like noCP is the direction ZOS wants to take PvP. No real explanations given but its clear that noCP is here to stay.

noCP PvP Campaigns Announced

How do you guys feel about this direction? How popular will a 7 day campaign be considering Haderus' infamous reputation?

XBOX getting an extra server over PC and PS4 is telling . .. maybe there are more PvPers on Xbox than any other platform?

magictucktuck

Derra

Gonna be interesting to see the new campaign populations.

Texas

All they really did was swap Haderus from CP to noCP and then rename all of the campaigns. I mean should we be all up in arms and discussing why one campaign went from CP to noCP?

Crispen_Longbow

I personally think its a great time for the major guilds to move over to the NO CP as that is the direction ZOS wants to head.

Izaki

So what exactly is the point of having a CP system if its disabled in most PvP campaigns and battlegrounds? I'm not complaining, it just seems... counter productive.

jroc699_burr

cp campaign for 7 days !!!!!! bring it backk

Crispen_Longbow

NO CP is pretty good balance currently (Once Siege & poisons are fixed). One thing that has been mentioned to me is that with the new update they are changing a ton of things to reduce sustain with CP which will make NO CP much worse than it is now. That's another thing to consider.

The current "NO CP" campaigns that people are use to is not what it's going to be next week.

Rickter

Texas wrote: »

All they really did was swap Haderus from CP to noCP and then rename all of the campaigns. I mean should we be all up in arms and discussing why one campaign went from CP to noCP?

It was more significant than this. The non-vet campaign is now non-champ and the additional xbox server is non-champ and BGs are non-champ. This is a definitive statement as to ZOS' intentions for PvP.

As it stands the only Champ version will be the Trueflame clone. thats it in terms of your options to utilize CP in ESO PvP.

Im so glad my guild voted to move to noCP. NOW - they just need to disable CP in duels. . . @ZOS_BrianWheeler

@Crispen_Longbow time to make a new who's who thread!! lol jk. . but seriously

Izaki

Crispen_Longbow wrote: »

NO CP is pretty good balance currently (Once Siege & poisons are fixed). One thing that has been mentioned to me is that with the new update they are changing a ton of things to reduce sustain with CP which will make NO CP much worse than it is now. That's another thing to consider.

The current "NO CP" campaigns that people are use to is not what it's going to be next week.

I don't think anyone said it wasn't ^.^ (yet)

Sharee

Derra wrote: »

Gonna be interesting to see the new campaign populations.

Vivec locked with a 150 queue, one of the no-CP at medium, and the rest empty.

Adenoma

I bet folks will want to keep playing with CP. I prefer no-CP, but I know a lot of people want to play with the CP that they've earned with their character progression. Plus, CP enable a lot more build possibilities than no-CP.

DeadlyRecluse

During prime time, the CP and noCP camps on PC NA tend to be poplocked, with 2 bars or so in the 7day. I don't really see that changing.

bikerangelo

Zos needs to stop dragging their feet and admit that CP is the primary issue for power creep, poor balancing changes, extensive server calculations causing lag, and flat numerical advantages that are awarded for the sake of grinding xp. The only reason they don't remove CP is because they lack the imagination to replace the crap progression system with something better that provides diversity. Since frontloading CP rewards newer players a crazy amount, this tells vets that the more CP they have, the less value they possess.

Non-CP campaigns would be perfect if NPC's and cost poisons were scaled accordingly. Poisons themselves are hardly balanced, and if they remain untouched next patch, non-CP will be a cheesefest of proc sets and resource draining one shots, even more so than AZ already is.

There's another problem with removing CP entirely from pvp; pve would have to be balanced completely separate from pvp, and not just through blanket adjustments like Battle Spirit. It's like a couple fighting over a bad sofa during a divorce, just make them both buy a new one that fits their separate needs and get rid of the old one.

TL:DR - CP needs a massive overhaul fast. The sooner zos adjusts CP to not provide flat stat increases, the closer all aspects of the game will come to better balance.

apostate9

bikerangelo wrote: »

Zos needs to stop dragging their feet and admit that CP is the primary issue for power creep, poor balancing changes, extensive server calculations causing lag, and flat numerical advantages that are awarded for the sake of grinding xp. The only reason they don't remove CP is because they lack the imagination to replace the crap progression system with something better that provides diversity. Since frontloading CP rewards newer players a crazy amount, this tells vets that the more CP they have, the less value they possess.

Non-CP campaigns would be perfect if NPC's and cost poisons were scaled accordingly. Poisons themselves are hardly balanced, and if they remain untouched next patch, non-CP will be a cheesefest of proc sets and resource draining one shots, even more so than AZ already is.

There's another problem with removing CP entirely from pvp; pve would have to be balanced completely separate from pvp, and not just through blanket adjustments like Battle Spirit. It's like a couple fighting over a bad sofa during a divorce, just make them both buy a new one that fits their separate needs and get rid of the old one.

TL:DR - CP needs a massive overhaul fast. The sooner zos adjusts CP to not provide flat stat increases, the closer all aspects of the game will come to better balance.

Stat increases are NOT flat, they are on a curve, as you pointed out yourself. So yes, the later ones are worth less than the early ones. This was always going to be the case. You can't have power scale up at a flat rate forever. The problem is some folks want to keep "leveling up" forever, which is the antithesis of capping power creep. You can "lower the ceiling" or you can allow "progression forever". But not both.

ZOS needs to choose one, and state their intent.

KingJ

Confirm Xbox has the most PVP players lol.

MagnusRex

Rip escape from primetime lagg....
guess it'll be a game of chance from then on... will my skills cast or won't they?

Sandman929

apostate9 wrote: »

bikerangelo wrote: »

Zos needs to stop dragging their feet and admit that CP is the primary issue for power creep, poor balancing changes, extensive server calculations causing lag, and flat numerical advantages that are awarded for the sake of grinding xp. The only reason they don't remove CP is because they lack the imagination to replace the crap progression system with something better that provides diversity. Since frontloading CP rewards newer players a crazy amount, this tells vets that the more CP they have, the less value they possess.

Non-CP campaigns would be perfect if NPC's and cost poisons were scaled accordingly. Poisons themselves are hardly balanced, and if they remain untouched next patch, non-CP will be a cheesefest of proc sets and resource draining one shots, even more so than AZ already is.

There's another problem with removing CP entirely from pvp; pve would have to be balanced completely separate from pvp, and not just through blanket adjustments like Battle Spirit. It's like a couple fighting over a bad sofa during a divorce, just make them both buy a new one that fits their separate needs and get rid of the old one.

TL:DR - CP needs a massive overhaul fast. The sooner zos adjusts CP to not provide flat stat increases, the closer all aspects of the game will come to better balance.

Stat increases are NOT flat, they are on a curve, as you pointed out yourself. So yes, the later ones are worth less than the early ones. This was always going to be the case. You can't have power scale up at a flat rate forever. The problem is some folks want to keep "leveling up" forever, which is the antithesis of capping power creep. You can "lower the ceiling" or you can allow "progression forever". But not both.

ZOS needs to choose one, and state their intent.

They could change the direction of the progression. CP increasing damage or mitigation or resource return is the power creep. CP that maybe returns a modest (scaled to something like 12% increased by CP) resource under a certain condition (healing an ally under 50%). Or CP investment to increase the duration of DoTs...or HoTs by a reasonable amount.
There are many possibilities for reworking the CP system in such a way that progression can still happen without a huge power gap between low CP and high CP.

Hoked_on_ponix

All Hail the new master Race: XBOX1 NA!!

Potenza

I think its great. They left one server with CP as a choice - so everyone should be happy.

FlyLionel

Hoked_on_ponix wrote: »

All Hail the new master Race: XBOX1 NA!!

Lol!

I like that they went the no cp route personally, but if I was a pvp player only at capped CP with one campaign thats gonna be laglustful..yikes.

Yiko

The live Non-CP campaign feels more balanced to me than CP campaigns by a fair margin. Player decisions have more significance, as resource management is tougher.

Derra

Yiko wrote: »

The live Non-CP campaign feels more balanced to me than CP campaigns by a fair margin. Player decisions have more significance, as resource management is tougher.

You´re going to have a bad time when you realize the current live nonCP is not even remotely close to how sustain feels on pts.

Texas

Rickter wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

All they really did was swap Haderus from CP to noCP and then rename all of the campaigns. I mean should we be all up in arms and discussing why one campaign went from CP to noCP?

It was more significant than this. The non-vet campaign is now non-champ and the additional xbox server is non-champ and BGs are non-champ. This is a definitive statement as to ZOS' intentions for PvP.

As it stands the only Champ version will be the Trueflame clone. thats it in terms of your options to utilize CP in ESO PvP.

Im so glad my guild voted to move to noCP. NOW - they just need to disable CP in duels. . . @ZOS_BrianWheeler

@Crispen_Longbow time to make a new who's who thread!! lol jk. . but seriously

It's been a while since I've even looked at BwB but I'm pretty sure that has been noCP for quite some time now. If you review the actual PC NA campaigns we have the following (2CP and 2 noCP):

TF - CP 30 days
AS - noCP 30 days
Had - CP 7 days
BwB - lowbie noCP

Fast forward to the 22nd and we have the following (1CP and 3 noCP):

Almalexia - 7 day Non-Champ
Sotha Sil – 30 day Non-Champ
Vivec – 30 day Champ
Kyne – lowbie Non-Champ

As I said in my first post the ONLY change is that Haderus is being changed from a CP to a noCP campaign and they are renaming them as well. As a PC player the XBox or PS servers have zero bearing on the issue for me.

Edit : agreed with BGs being noCP but honestly they had to do that or else some builds would never die and then they'd hear even more QQ about balance issues which are going to start really rearing their ugly heads come the 22nd. I honestly would hate to run into half of the builds in BGs that I see on a daily basis in Cyrodiil.

Kilandros

I really like no CP but I wish they'd tone down siege damage

Grimlok_S

bikerangelo wrote: »

Zos needs to stop dragging their feet and admit that CP is the primary issue for power creep, poor balancing changes, extensive server calculations causing lag, and flat numerical advantages that are awarded for the sake of grinding xp. The only reason they don't remove CP is because they lack the imagination to replace the crap progression system with something better that provides diversity. Since frontloading CP rewards newer players a crazy amount, this tells vets that the more CP they have, the less value they possess.

Non-CP campaigns would be perfect if NPC's and cost poisons were scaled accordingly. Poisons themselves are hardly balanced, and if they remain untouched next patch, non-CP will be a cheesefest of proc sets and resource draining one shots, even more so than AZ already is.

There's another problem with removing CP entirely from pvp; pve would have to be balanced completely separate from pvp, and not just through blanket adjustments like Battle Spirit. It's like a couple fighting over a bad sofa during a divorce, just make them both buy a new one that fits their separate needs and get rid of the old one.

TL:DR - CP needs a massive overhaul fast. The sooner zos adjusts CP to not provide flat stat increases, the closer all aspects of the game will come to better balance.

Do you remember that week of Non-champ and double AP on all servers? That was to test whether CP was the factor causing the lag. The results are in, and they admitted CP doesn't have the server performance impact they thought it had. Please stop spreading the rumor.

Rohamad_Ali

I don't think there is a lot to be discussed . Once again ZoS did not ask for our opinion and just changed things the way they wanted . Par for the course these days . When they ever get around to asking what we want then I'll waste my .02¢ .

bikerangelo

apostate9 wrote: »

bikerangelo wrote: »

Zos needs to stop dragging their feet and admit that CP is the primary issue for power creep, poor balancing changes, extensive server calculations causing lag, and flat numerical advantages that are awarded for the sake of grinding xp. The only reason they don't remove CP is because they lack the imagination to replace the crap progression system with something better that provides diversity. Since frontloading CP rewards newer players a crazy amount, this tells vets that the more CP they have, the less value they possess.

Non-CP campaigns would be perfect if NPC's and cost poisons were scaled accordingly. Poisons themselves are hardly balanced, and if they remain untouched next patch, non-CP will be a cheesefest of proc sets and resource draining one shots, even more so than AZ already is.

There's another problem with removing CP entirely from pvp; pve would have to be balanced completely separate from pvp, and not just through blanket adjustments like Battle Spirit. It's like a couple fighting over a bad sofa during a divorce, just make them both buy a new one that fits their separate needs and get rid of the old one.

TL:DR - CP needs a massive overhaul fast. The sooner zos adjusts CP to not provide flat stat increases, the closer all aspects of the game will come to better balance.

Stat increases are NOT flat, they are on a curve, as you pointed out yourself. So yes, the later ones are worth less than the early ones. This was always going to be the case. You can't have power scale up at a flat rate forever. The problem is some folks want to keep "leveling up" forever, which is the antithesis of capping power creep. You can "lower the ceiling" or you can allow "progression forever". But not both.

ZOS needs to choose one, and state their intent.

I should've clarified, because you're right about the curve. A max CP player has a flat statistical increase in potency when compared to a player without CP. The CP system itself (as a whole) provides a numerical advantage to players, regardless of skill level. This is why most dps players at 300 CP or lower will never get picked up by pledge groups or trials groups, not because they're inexperienced, but because they're at a statistical disadvantage. ZOS can frontload CP all they want and provide a grade curve that levels out with the more CP you get, but that means as the CP cap rises, they'll become even less and less effective.

Grimlok_S wrote: »

bikerangelo wrote: »

Zos needs to stop dragging their feet and admit that CP is the primary issue for power creep, poor balancing changes, extensive server calculations causing lag, and flat numerical advantages that are awarded for the sake of grinding xp. The only reason they don't remove CP is because they lack the imagination to replace the crap progression system with something better that provides diversity. Since frontloading CP rewards newer players a crazy amount, this tells vets that the more CP they have, the less value they possess.

Non-CP campaigns would be perfect if NPC's and cost poisons were scaled accordingly. Poisons themselves are hardly balanced, and if they remain untouched next patch, non-CP will be a cheesefest of proc sets and resource draining one shots, even more so than AZ already is.

There's another problem with removing CP entirely from pvp; pve would have to be balanced completely separate from pvp, and not just through blanket adjustments like Battle Spirit. It's like a couple fighting over a bad sofa during a divorce, just make them both buy a new one that fits their separate needs and get rid of the old one.

TL:DR - CP needs a massive overhaul fast. The sooner zos adjusts CP to not provide flat stat increases, the closer all aspects of the game will come to better balance.

Do you remember that week of Non-champ and double AP on all servers? That was to test whether CP was the factor causing the lag. The results are in, and they admitted CP doesn't have the server performance impact they thought it had. Please stop spreading the rumor.

Here's the most recent post by Wheeler about that event.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Like some of you have noted, the meter doesn't show the absolute ping as it occurs on a second to second basis. That doesn't make reporting your ping and FPS useless however as combining that with your current activity in your reports helps out. We can look at those time frames reported and compare them to our server status graphs.

As for how the week went; we're going through the performance graphs and data this week as well as AP/XP gains and deciding on future tests, campaign changes, client/server perf. The feedback has been great pointing out performance, server connection, fps and general combat feedback of CP vs. NonCP. On a personal note, it was great week of action, especially last night at the Chalamo in Azura against AD and DC trying to dethrone our Emp!

Thanks everyone for the feedback and participating on a grand scale! We hope to see some of the new faces stick around Cyrodiil whether your banner is yellow, blue or red!

Where are these results that showed the performance gains and losses between enabling CP and disabling it? They never showed us. All campaigns were packed and laggy during that week so it was impossible to tell from the player's perspective as to whether or not CP was an issue. It's obviously not the only problem, but it could be a factor. I'm not spreading rumors either, I'm pointing towards a robust system that holds multiple calculations external to base player stats that the devs themselves have mentioned could cause lag. But if you know differently and I missed some thread or ESO live where they posted results of the double AP week, feel free to post them. I'll be more than happy to admit I assumed wrong.

Adernath

The closer the gap between PvP newcomers and veterans is, the better.

DoccEff

The only change is that Haderus is now nonCP. The other campaigns stay the way they are. Nonvet already was noCP before, which makes sense. BGs are new content that never had CP in the first place, so no change here.

I wouldn't mind to have more campaigns thought, just leave one weekly campaign with CP and add another without.

Magıc

bikerangelo wrote: »

Zos needs to stop dragging their feet and admit that CP is the primary issue for power creep, poor balancing changes, extensive server calculations causing lag, and flat numerical advantages that are awarded for the sake of grinding xp. The only reason they don't remove CP is because they lack the imagination to replace the crap progression system with something better that provides diversity. Since frontloading CP rewards newer players a crazy amount, this tells vets that the more CP they have, the less value they possess.

Non-CP campaigns would be perfect if NPC's and cost poisons were scaled accordingly. Poisons themselves are hardly balanced, and if they remain untouched next patch, non-CP will be a cheesefest of proc sets and resource draining one shots, even more so than AZ already is.

There's another problem with removing CP entirely from pvp; pve would have to be balanced completely separate from pvp, and not just through blanket adjustments like Battle Spirit. It's like a couple fighting over a bad sofa during a divorce, just make them both buy a new one that fits their separate needs and get rid of the old one.

TL:DR - CP needs a massive overhaul fast. The sooner zos adjusts CP to not provide flat stat increases, the closer all aspects of the game will come to better balance.

During the no CP week, the lag was just as bad if not worse.

CP must really be causing lag...