Nightblades - Should Cloak Persist Even When Taking Ground Targeted AoE DoTs?

Avran_Sylt

@QuebraRegra

Cloak never actually gave bonus sneak damage. Rather it worked off of the Master Assassin Passive:
Increases Weapon and Spell Damage while invisible or stealthed by 10%. The stun from the Crouch ability stuns for 100% longer.

Sneak attacks actually increased the damage from crouch on a classless basis in addition to always being a critical hit. They removed this so now NB is the only class that gains additional damage from stealth.

Edit: Unless someone uses the Archer's Mind Set which increases critical damage by 5%, and increases Critical damage by an additional 10% from stealth.

olsborg

No

Old mist form, from pre 1.6...now that was OP:)

CatchMeTrolling

No

No , you should still take the damage or said debuff but it shouldn't pull you out.

Meant yes you should keep cloak Feelsbadman

Celas_Dranacea

No

IMO I say no - works fine as is - gain distance from your enemy, then use cloak

ManDraKE

Yes

good luck using cloak when you have 40 dudes spamming the new caltrops in the entire area. Ground AOE breaking cloak had sense back where cloak worked differently, nowadays is stupid, there is a plethora of ways of breaking cloak, and with the new caltrops you won't be able to put a feet inside a bridge/tower/keep without stepping into someone's caltrops.

NightbladeMechanics

No

That would be op.

Try using shade to build distance before cloaking, instead of cloaking in people's faces and expecting it to work for you. Outright invisibility is too powerful to not have some mechanical demands.

Feanor

No

Cloak is annoying, yes. But I agree it has lots of counterplay available. Of course you shouldn't be able to walk through enemy AoE. One thing I'd like a change on which has not to do with cloak specifically, is all attacks and buffs should break stealth.

GreenSoup2HoT

Yes

I say yes because its way to easy for someone to use Grotharr or Hurricane to break someones cloak. Not to mention detect potions and all the other ways possible to break cloak.

Ground based AoE's should not break cloak in my opinion. Any damage inflicted should still occur though.

Strider_Roshin

Yes

Removing counterplay is bad for the game, regardless of class.

KeiruNicrom

No

Aoes whether ground targetted or not should always pull out of stealth imo. Its DoTs and single targets that shouldnt pull us out

Although it might make sense to give NBs a half second or so when cloaking in a ground target aoe. Not the full duration of cloak but not instant removal of it either

GreenSoup2HoT

Yes

KeiruNicrom wrote: »

Aoes whether ground targetted or not should always pull out of stealth imo. Its DoTs and single targets that shouldnt pull us out

Although it might make sense to give NBs a half second or so when cloaking in a ground target aoe. Not the full duration of cloak but not instant removal of it either

A better idea would be to grey out cloak while ontop of ground based aoe's so you dont waste magicka.

thankyourat

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Takes-No-Prisoner

Tested it, it makes them miss. Whiiich in my opinion is a rickshaw way to make cloak actually work.

Edit: any cloak morph makes all Single Target DoTs Miss (I.E. Poison Injection, Twin Slashes, probably Rend Ultimate) (The DoT Portion if it was initially applied)

Yeah, see as much as I wanted to have the purge option for cloak. Theres people out there who run DoT builds (MagDK) who get seriously hard countered by having the DoT purged off. Which, I believe was the original reason it was changed to a suppressor. This is what I was trying to get at.

So, now that we are here, how do we help cloak without completely shutting down DoT builds? Zos has taken a jab at it if we look at PTS 3.0.0 notes;

Nightblade

Shadow

Shadow Cloak: Fixed an issue where the invisibility from this ability and its morphs was being broken by numerous abilities including Reflective Light, Silver Shards, and Burning Talon’s damage over time effect.

Lol kind of liked how magblades burst gets shut down by dks wings. Bringing back purge to cloak would make a match with a dk more balanced. Right now you have to really outplay a mag dk to kill him as a magblade. Dark cloak getting it's purge back wouldn't make it any more op than BoL or shield stacking either. It would also increase nightblade survivability more by removing all those annoying snares. It's ridiculous to try to cloak when you are snared

Takes-No-Prisoner

I Don't Care

thankyourat wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Takes-No-Prisoner

Tested it, it makes them miss. Whiiich in my opinion is a rickshaw way to make cloak actually work.

Edit: any cloak morph makes all Single Target DoTs Miss (I.E. Poison Injection, Twin Slashes, probably Rend Ultimate) (The DoT Portion if it was initially applied)

Yeah, see as much as I wanted to have the purge option for cloak. Theres people out there who run DoT builds (MagDK) who get seriously hard countered by having the DoT purged off. Which, I believe was the original reason it was changed to a suppressor. This is what I was trying to get at.

So, now that we are here, how do we help cloak without completely shutting down DoT builds? Zos has taken a jab at it if we look at PTS 3.0.0 notes;

Nightblade

Shadow

Shadow Cloak: Fixed an issue where the invisibility from this ability and its morphs was being broken by numerous abilities including Reflective Light, Silver Shards, and Burning Talon’s damage over time effect.

Lol kind of liked how magblades burst gets shut down by dks wings. Bringing back purge to cloak would make a match with a dk more balanced. Right now you have to really outplay a mag dk to kill him as a magblade. Dark cloak getting it's purge back wouldn't make it any more op than BoL or shield stacking either. It would also increase nightblade survivability more by removing all those annoying snares. It's ridiculous to try to cloak when you are snared

What if cloak removed the snare placed on the NB?

KeiruNicrom

No

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

KeiruNicrom wrote: »

Aoes whether ground targetted or not should always pull out of stealth imo. Its DoTs and single targets that shouldnt pull us out

Although it might make sense to give NBs a half second or so when cloaking in a ground target aoe. Not the full duration of cloak but not instant removal of it either

A better idea would be to grey out cloak while ontop of ground based aoe's so you dont waste magicka.

The split second of cloak can still disrupt channels and some projectiles so there is still a use to cloaking on an aoe. Also if you want that garunteed crit or the damage reduction while fighting on a templars ritual

Kram8ion

Yes

Atm I'll take what I can get for my dying nb

TheDoomsdayMonster

No

Ground based AoE DoT's should absolutely break Cloak...

IMHO, any attack that causes a player damage should break stealth and cloak...

Being able to Cloak is a very powerful ability (as is stealth in general) as it allows the player to not only get the 1st assault in (which typically results in the opponents death without said opponent even having the chance to fight back), but is able to get the player out of trouble very rapidly if the alpha combo fails to kill its target...

Such a powerful ability should have counters; being able to negate it with a ground based AoE DoT should be one of them...

thankyourat

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Ground based AoE DoT's should absolutely break Cloak...

IMHO, any attack that causes a player damage should break stealth and cloak...

Being able to Cloak is a very powerful ability (as is stealth in general) as it allows the player to not only get the 1st assault in (which typically results in the opponents death without said opponent even having the chance to fight back), but is able to get the player out of trouble very rapidly if the alpha combo fails to kill its target...

Such a powerful ability should have counters; being able to negate it with a ground based AoE DoT should be one of them...

I agree cloak should have counters, but it does have more hard counters than any other ability. While it can be powerful it's not anymore powerful than shield stacking or BoL land those abilities don't have nearly as many counters

NightbladeMechanics

No

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Takes-No-Prisoner

Tested it, it makes them miss. Whiiich in my opinion is a rickshaw way to make cloak actually work.

Edit: any cloak morph makes all Single Target DoTs Miss (I.E. Poison Injection, Twin Slashes, probably Rend Ultimate) (The DoT Portion if it was initially applied)

Yeah, see as much as I wanted to have the purge option for cloak. Theres people out there who run DoT builds (MagDK) who get seriously hard countered by having the DoT purged off. Which, I believe was the original reason it was changed to a suppressor. This is what I was trying to get at.

So, now that we are here, how do we help cloak without completely shutting down DoT builds? Zos has taken a jab at it if we look at PTS 3.0.0 notes;

Nightblade

Shadow

Shadow Cloak: Fixed an issue where the invisibility from this ability and its morphs was being broken by numerous abilities including Reflective Light, Silver Shards, and Burning Talon’s damage over time effect.

Lol kind of liked how magblades burst gets shut down by dks wings. Bringing back purge to cloak would make a match with a dk more balanced. Right now you have to really outplay a mag dk to kill him as a magblade. Dark cloak getting it's purge back wouldn't make it any more op than BoL or shield stacking either. It would also increase nightblade survivability more by removing all those annoying snares. It's ridiculous to try to cloak when you are snared

What if cloak removed the snare placed on the NB?

I'd like the dark cloak morph to purge snares and roots and suppress (but not purge) dots in addition to the minor protection.

Bislobo

Other

Just remove this ability and give us a proper defensive tool. Cloak is so bad that the nightblade class is always underwhelming compared to other classes because of it. Even the passive related to invisibility should be replaced with something that works in both pvp and pve. I know it is a class defining ability, but the class is already unique and have very distinct mechanics and feel without cloak. Cloak is the reason Nightblade suck because zenimax balance around it. Here is the reasoning behind it: "So... Nightblade has lower dps compared to other clases... Hmm.... I know this one! let's buff it's dps spammable (strife). Yeah yeah, then imagine people using it non stop in cyrodill and BGs paired with cloak... (optional light atack) Strife - Cloak - Strife - Cloak - Strife - Cloak - Strife - Cloak..."

Takes-No-Prisoner

I Don't Care

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

in addition to the minor protection.

I am fine with the other half of this post. However I believe an argument could be made with minor protection being a little over the top.

For Example: That would be like, Restoring Focus plus the ability to flash it(Shadow Barrier passive gives us Major Physical/Spell resists) at will AND avoid all incoming damage that solely relies on LoS[like C.Frags]

Restoring Focus, absolutely needs that for people who need it to absorb extra damage. And rightfully so, Templar does not have any mobility options like the NightBlade does. So them having this option makes sense here. Whereas, snare/root removal on Dark Cloak morph synergies with the strong theme of mobility the Nightblade has. If we're talking about NB tanks, they can get access to Major Protection through Bolstering ultimate.

Bislobo wrote: »

Just remove this ability and give us a proper defensive tool.........

TheDoomsdayMonster

No

thankyourat wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Ground based AoE DoT's should absolutely break Cloak...

IMHO, any attack that causes a player damage should break stealth and cloak...

Being able to Cloak is a very powerful ability (as is stealth in general) as it allows the player to not only get the 1st assault in (which typically results in the opponents death without said opponent even having the chance to fight back), but is able to get the player out of trouble very rapidly if the alpha combo fails to kill its target...

Such a powerful ability should have counters; being able to negate it with a ground based AoE DoT should be one of them...

I agree cloak should have counters, but it does have more hard counters than any other ability. While it can be powerful it's not anymore powerful than shield stacking or BoL land those abilities don't have nearly as many counters

I gotta disagree with you on the bolded...

Shield stacking and BoL are no where near as powerful as Cloak...

Shield stacking and BoL dont allow you to kill a player without that player having the chance to fight back...

NightbladeMechanics

No

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Ground based AoE DoT's should absolutely break Cloak...

IMHO, any attack that causes a player damage should break stealth and cloak...

Being able to Cloak is a very powerful ability (as is stealth in general) as it allows the player to not only get the 1st assault in (which typically results in the opponents death without said opponent even having the chance to fight back), but is able to get the player out of trouble very rapidly if the alpha combo fails to kill its target...

Such a powerful ability should have counters; being able to negate it with a ground based AoE DoT should be one of them...

I agree cloak should have counters, but it does have more hard counters than any other ability. While it can be powerful it's not anymore powerful than shield stacking or BoL land those abilities don't have nearly as many counters

I gotta disagree with you on the bolded...

Shield stacking and BoL are no where near as powerful as Cloak...

Shield stacking and BoL dont allow you to kill a player without that player having the chance to fight back...

Crouch > shields and BoL then too?

Takes-No-Prisoner

I Don't Care

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Ground based AoE DoT's should absolutely break Cloak...

IMHO, any attack that causes a player damage should break stealth and cloak...

Being able to Cloak is a very powerful ability (as is stealth in general) as it allows the player to not only get the 1st assault in (which typically results in the opponents death without said opponent even having the chance to fight back), but is able to get the player out of trouble very rapidly if the alpha combo fails to kill its target...

Such a powerful ability should have counters; being able to negate it with a ground based AoE DoT should be one of them...

I agree cloak should have counters, but it does have more hard counters than any other ability. While it can be powerful it's not anymore powerful than shield stacking or BoL land those abilities don't have nearly as many counters

I gotta disagree with you on the bolded...

Shield stacking and BoL are no where near as powerful as Cloak...

Shield stacking and BoL dont allow you to kill a player without that player having the chance to fight back...

Crouch > shields and BoL then too?