Nightblades - Should Cloak Persist Even When Taking Ground Targeted AoE DoTs?

Avran_Sylt

This is the largest issue I have with the skill, it's much to easily countered by things such as Caltrops, DK Standard, Ritual of Retribution, Wall of Elements. I get if it's something like the templar's puncturing strikes, radial sweep, things where the player will 'feel' the blow land or 'see' splash damage morph around the nb shape. But I don't think Ground targeted AoE DoTs should remove them from stealth. The enemy player isn't actively 'feeling' the effects. Take for example Ritual of Retribution, it acts like an easy cast magelight because on the first tick of damage everyone in stealth or cloak in a 12m radius is de-stealthed. can't walk over that area for an additional 12 seconds either, cause of the lingering damage.


Edit: It has come to light that cloak currently suppresses Active DoTs on the player, making all the DoTs miss. This seems to have been implemented so that DoTs don't break players out of cloak. So, I think this needs to be addressed in addition to the AoE DoTs breaking cloak.

Gilvoth

Yes

everything takes us out of stealth. the only thing that should take me out of stealth is if i attack something or if i interact with an object.
right now, everything takes me out of stealth. i hate that.

kadar

The hilarious thing about this is that people used to (still do?) consider Cloak OP-- they wanted to give it the streak treatment. LOL. Magicka NBs are scrapping Cloak for Mist because of how unreliable it still is...

olsborg

No

But the ability is broken and gets broken by basicly anthing , singletarget spells too, its sad.

Nyladreas

Yes

I picked yes, however I agree and disagree...


With how currently the cloak works (allowing MagBlades to stealth forever, and Stamblades to stealth only for few seconds)
it would generate a lot of problems.

We need to somehow equalize the cost/duration for both, (this would include hybrids as well) before implementing such a thing.

Once that has been dealt with and balanced, i see no problem making us immune to the ground AoE, for just a 1.5 second after we use the cloak, that's more than enough time to stun your opponent. And basically (with how Morrowind changed sustain) you only get 2-3 opportunities a fight.

Carbonised

No

Of course you shouldn't be able to cloak in an aoe. Didya try maybe not moving into hostile aoes if you want to remain undetected ...

Takes-No-Prisoner

I Don't Care

Honestly I have never had a problem with cloak.

I ran from a zerg the other night, got C.frags, talons, Ritual'ed, and hit with a bunch of other CCs. I just CC break, roll and mashed cloak, and got away. The first time you cloak stops LoS, cloak the next few times for any Dots, just keep hitting the button and it won't drop.

You can cloak over those areas, but it's often much more sensible to just avoid them all together.

QuebraRegra

Yes

No, but... crap, I accidentally voted yes cause I stupid

They must fix single target attacks breaking cloak. AOE is yet another legit mechanism to counter cloak (among so many, so complaints against cloak from other classes should be nil). As a NB you have to play strategically to avoid AOEs and detection (classic example was last night when I burned a field full of siege equipment, all the while skirting those with AOEs who were trying to detect me... detection would have been instadeath for me based on the size of the zerg.. so glad there was no magelight

makreth

Yes

I say yes otherwise why would there be detect invisible potions, magelight or flare? Or maybe with the first cloak cast give the user a 2sec duration of "aoe immunity".

QuebraRegra

Yes

The_Outsider wrote: »

The hilarious thing about this is that people used to (still do?) consider Cloak OP-- they wanted to give it the streak treatment. LOL. Magicka NBs are scrapping Cloak for Mist because of how unreliable it still is...

!@&#$%!@ nonsense!!! Sometimes the playerbase on these forums are just stupid... and there's no fixing stupid.

Cloak has been broken forever, with so many acknowledgements from ZOS that it is in fact broke, and promises of fixes that never work time and time again. Now with the stealth/cloak damage nerf NO ONE SHOULD SAY S@^# about cloak being OP.

makreth

Yes

QuebraRegra wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

The hilarious thing about this is that people used to (still do?) consider Cloak OP-- they wanted to give it the streak treatment. LOL. Magicka NBs are scrapping Cloak for Mist because of how unreliable it still is...

!@&#$%!@ nonsense!!! Sometimes the playerbase on these forums are just stupid... and there's no fixing stupid.

Cloak has been broken forever, with so many acknowledgements from ZOS that it is in fact broke, and promises of fixes that never work time and time again. Now with the stealth/cloak damage nerf NO ONE SHOULD SAY S@^# about cloak being OP.

sneak bonus damage and cloak are two different things....

FlyLionel

No

I know we're weak right now but this is ridiculous, should focus on real issues instead of things that has been here since release, and nit picking. I want to be able to cloak and maneuver right through an enemies Nova. Nope.

Cloak has the most counters to an ability in the entire game, if it worked like how it sounds on paper it would make sense. Right now dots ticking while in cloak can remove you from it and many other issues as well. Is it completely broken? No, but it has it's issues and those are what needs to be addressed, if it gets any sort of buff it would be a purge morph. Everything else is birds chirping.

Takes-No-Prisoner

I Don't Care

FlyLionel wrote: »

it would be a purge morph

A while ago, one of the morphs of cloak purged 1 debuff on you. And that got taken out in the next patch after that.

Solariken

Other

I actually don't like spammable invisibility in this game - I wish they would change Cloak to something like this:

Shroud yourself in sinister haze, granting Minor Expedition (+10% movement speed) and preventing enemies from targeting you for 3 seconds. Any attacks you initiate will dispel this effect.

So basically you would remain visible the entire time, but can only be struck by ground and AoE attacks. Being damaged would not break the effect - only damage you deal would break it. You also still get Major Ward/Resolve and Minor Protection from passives.

This would make the skill an incredibly powerful escape skill while toning down stealth gameplay. Then Nightblades can finally get some other meaningful buffs in other areas.

Tholian1

Yes

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

it would be a purge morph

A while ago, one of the morphs of cloak purged 1 debuff on you. And that got taken out in the next patch after that.

Dark Cloak should return to removing DoTs.

Omnipresent

Yes

NB has been my first and only toon till about a week ago when i decided to create a magsorc. before starting this toon i thought cloak wasnt all that bad untill i spammed a shield or 2 with the sorc.... i could prolly maintain better survivabilty playing with my toes and puffing on one then white-knuckling it with my NB....so ya frikkin fix cloak at least for my poor NB lol

Subversus

Yes

Everyone that says no has probably been 1vXd by a magblade

Omnipresent

Yes

Started my sorc and realized i didnt enjoy it half as much as my NB so even if they completly slaughter the class ill prolly still be playing it diehard till the end, but i ask you guys really nicley.... please show us born NB some love

Omnipresent

Yes

Direct damage should definatly break it,but i noticed if i hit som1 with poison arrow, it breaks me out of stealth every time it procs on the target....but debilitate on the other hand wont break me out? idonno maybe im missing somthing, baybe cuz deb. is a NB skill or somthing?

Avran_Sylt

@Omnipresent

Actually, I think that may be an issue with how stealth works in this game. I can lay down a Rearming trap, go into stealth, and I'm popped out of stealth when it triggers on an enemy, even if I'm three rooms away.

FlyLionel

No

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

it would be a purge morph

A while ago, one of the morphs of cloak purged 1 debuff on you. And that got taken out in the next patch after that.

Yeah...i'm aware of that, mained a NB since release lol. They took it out when stamina got an insane universal buff with Dark brotherhood; I believe it was that time @Takes-No-Prisoner

Takes-No-Prisoner

I Don't Care

Tholian1 wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

it would be a purge morph

A while ago, one of the morphs of cloak purged 1 debuff on you. And that got taken out in the next patch after that.

Dark Cloak should return to removing DoTs.

Remove completely or suppress? IRC, current cloak just suppresses them right?

Tholian1

Yes

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

it would be a purge morph

A while ago, one of the morphs of cloak purged 1 debuff on you. And that got taken out in the next patch after that.

Dark Cloak should return to removing DoTs.

Remove completely or suppress? IRC, current cloak just suppresses them right?

Dark Cloak used to remove 1 damage over time effect. Now I think it only grants minor protection. I don't use it anymore so I am not sure.

Avran_Sylt

@Takes-No-Prisoner

Tested it, it makes them miss. Whiiich in my opinion is a rickshaw way to make cloak actually work.

Edit: any cloak morph makes all Single Target DoTs Miss (I.E. Poison Injection, Twin Slashes, probably Rend Ultimate) (The DoT Portion if it was initially applied)

Xvorg

Other

Actually I liked the version that allowed you to avoid Jesus beam. Now even that channeled skills break cloak and prevents you to cast it...

Xvorg

Other

Tholian1 wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

it would be a purge morph

A while ago, one of the morphs of cloak purged 1 debuff on you. And that got taken out in the next patch after that.

Dark Cloak should return to removing DoTs.

Remove completely or suppress? IRC, current cloak just suppresses them right?

Dark Cloak used to remove 1 damage over time effect. Now I think it only grants minor protection. I don't use it anymore so I am not sure.

Up to 4. It was a great way to couter gap closers when it did it...

Takes-No-Prisoner

I Don't Care

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Takes-No-Prisoner

Tested it, it makes them miss. Whiiich in my opinion is a rickshaw way to make cloak actually work.

Edit: any cloak morph makes all Single Target DoTs Miss (I.E. Poison Injection, Twin Slashes, probably Rend Ultimate) (The DoT Portion if it was initially applied)

Yeah, see as much as I wanted to have the purge option for cloak. Theres people out there who run DoT builds (MagDK) who get seriously hard countered by having the DoT purged off. Which, I believe was the original reason it was changed to a suppressor. This is what I was trying to get at.

So, now that we are here, how do we help cloak without completely shutting down DoT builds? Zos has taken a jab at it if we look at PTS 3.0.0 notes;

Nightblade

Shadow

Shadow Cloak: Fixed an issue where the invisibility from this ability and its morphs was being broken by numerous abilities including Reflective Light, Silver Shards, and Burning Talon’s damage over time effect.

Avran_Sylt

@Takes-No-Prisoner

Then what it needs to do is not suppress DoT Ticks, but also not break stealth when Single Target DoTs Tick and deal damage to the player that is cloaked.

However, this in itself would best be on another thread.

Edit: In my mind Cloak shouldn't be broken by any kind of DoT, nor should it suppress them. it should only be broken by Direct Damage. Though what classifies as Direct Damage would likely become an issue.

FlyLionel

No

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Takes-No-Prisoner

Tested it, it makes them miss. Whiiich in my opinion is a rickshaw way to make cloak actually work.

Edit: any cloak morph makes all Single Target DoTs Miss (I.E. Poison Injection, Twin Slashes, probably Rend Ultimate) (The DoT Portion if it was initially applied)

Yeah, see as much as I wanted to have the purge option for cloak. Theres people out there who run DoT builds (MagDK) who get seriously hard countered by having the DoT purged off. Which, I believe was the original reason it was changed to a suppressor. This is what I was trying to get at.

So, now that we are here, how do we help cloak without completely shutting down DoT builds? Zos has taken a jab at it if we look at PTS 3.0.0 notes;

Nightblade

Shadow

Shadow Cloak: Fixed an issue where the invisibility from this ability and its morphs was being broken by numerous abilities including Reflective Light, Silver Shards, and Burning Talon’s damage over time effect.

Yes I agree on not absolutely shutting down builds(sorc shields = bye crit builds), but one or two(Edit:Two sounds good minimum actually) dot purge won't shut someone down like how Templars extended ritual does..Right? What is it? Like 4-5 dots..jeez, people who want cloak don't want that many purges, that's unbalanced; one or two MAX is okay. Wbu?

Edit: @Avran_Sylt yeah..making it miss just LITERALLY goes to show you that they are unable to truly fix it and is a 'rickshaw' fix. Nightblades in Tavas favor op now? lol..

MisterBigglesworth

No, just add a levitate spell.
Cast levitate, then cast cloak, float over caltrops, get into Keep.

QuebraRegra

Yes

makreth wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

The hilarious thing about this is that people used to (still do?) consider Cloak OP-- they wanted to give it the streak treatment. LOL. Magicka NBs are scrapping Cloak for Mist because of how unreliable it still is...

!@&#$%!@ nonsense!!! Sometimes the playerbase on these forums are just stupid... and there's no fixing stupid.

Cloak has been broken forever, with so many acknowledgements from ZOS that it is in fact broke, and promises of fixes that never work time and time again. Now with the stealth/cloak damage nerf NO ONE SHOULD SAY S@^# about cloak being OP.

sneak bonus damage and cloak are two different things....

makreth wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

The hilarious thing about this is that people used to (still do?) consider Cloak OP-- they wanted to give it the streak treatment. LOL. Magicka NBs are scrapping Cloak for Mist because of how unreliable it still is...

!@&#$%!@ nonsense!!! Sometimes the playerbase on these forums are just stupid... and there's no fixing stupid.

Cloak has been broken forever, with so many acknowledgements from ZOS that it is in fact broke, and promises of fixes that never work time and time again. Now with the stealth/cloak damage nerf NO ONE SHOULD SAY S@^# about cloak being OP.

sneak bonus damage and cloak are two different things....

"Sneak attacks no longer grant a bonus to Critical Damage when used against other players. Sneak attacks will continue to guarantee a Critical Strike and stun the target, and will also still grant a bonus to Critical Damage when used against monsters."

I can't play on PTS, so I'm trying to interpret the actual change, but this will also affect the dmg from the guaranteed crit of the cloak morph? Scenario: crouching/hidden and cloaked/surprise attack provides additional dmg, where as post change the dmg from the hidden/cloak-crit will be lower resulting in a nerf to the cloak morph effectively?