3/2/18 ESO Live Stream: ZOS, I Challenge You to Prove Your Stance on Hybrid Builds

GrumpyDuckling

Edit on 3/1/18: Tomorrow would be a great opportunity for @ZOS_RichLambert to prove hybrid viability on the ESO Live stream of VMA.

Original post from April 2017:
In September 2016 the Creative Director of ESO was asked to respond to a comment that included this phrase: "...players are pigeonholed into specific builds because hybrids aren't viable..." The Creative Director of ESO responded to that phrase by saying "I don't believe that." A two minute-plus response ensued to defend the statement, with mentions of both PVP and PVE game play.

Here is the video evidence (from 32:32 to 35:05):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Que9KdffpcQ

So, if hybrid builds are to be considered "viable," then by definition hybrid builds can be used to complete all game content, including Trials, Dungeons, Quests, and Veteran Maelstrom Arena.

Here is the challenge that I have for anyone from ZOS, and especially for the Creative Director of ESO: Create a "true" hybrid build and complete Veteran Maelstrom Arena.

- Split your attribute points as evenly as possible into Health, Magicka, and Stamina (22/21/21).
- Use an end-game craftable 5 piece hybrid set like Pelinal's Aptitude.
- Use a stat-mixing 5 piece set like Armor of the Trainee.
- Fill the remaining 1 or 2 spots as you see fit.
- Complete Veteran Maelstrom Arena with this hybrid build once the Morrowind Patch is active.

If Veteran Maelstrom Arena is completed with the aforementioned build, or one similar, then hybrid builds will have been proved "viable." Until then, I will continue to support changes to attribute scaling and weapon/spell damage divide, because those are two obstacles that I believe are preventing hybrid builds from being viable. Thank you for your time, and I look forward to either being proven wrong, or helping to convince you of the need to work toward a solution that would make hybrid builds more competitive in all game content.

Lavennin

I'd love to see hybrids made (or proven) viable, but the three attributes splitting seems too harsh a requirement. I'm thinking stamina + magicka.

GrumpyDuckling

Lavennin wrote: »

I'd love to see hybrids made (or proven) viable, but the three attributes splitting seems too harsh a requirement. I'm thinking stamina + magicka.

The three attribute split is as hybrid as it gets.

Turelus

TBH they can complete content fine, they're just not as efficient or leaderboad competitive so no one uses them.

If your goal is just to clear content then you'd be surprised how many unoptimised builds actually work, they just take a long time.

Koensol

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Lavennin wrote: »

I'd love to see hybrids made (or proven) viable, but the three attributes splitting seems too harsh a requirement. I'm thinking stamina + magicka.

The three attribute split is as hybrid as it gets.

Doesn't mean every hybrid should do a 3 split. That would be pretty dumb. Mag and stam split would be a hybrid as well, which is what I think most people aim for. Health can be fixed with food.

GrumpyDuckling

Turelus wrote: »

TBH they can complete content fine, they're just not as efficient or leaderboad competitive so no one uses them.

If your goal is just to clear content then you'd be surprised how many unoptimised builds actually work, they just take a long time.

I'm having a hard time believing that a build like the one in the original post could complete VMA. But hey, if I'm proven wrong then I'll give credit to the individual who made it happen.

GrumpyDuckling

Koensol wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Lavennin wrote: »

I'd love to see hybrids made (or proven) viable, but the three attributes splitting seems too harsh a requirement. I'm thinking stamina + magicka.

The three attribute split is as hybrid as it gets.

Doesn't mean every hybrid should do a 3 split. That would be pretty dumb. Mag and stam split would be a hybrid as well, which is what I think most people aim for. Health can be fixed with food.

I agree that there are different ways to construct a hybrid. However, if ZOS were to prove viability of hybrid builds, then creating the most hybrid-like build stands to offer the best proof of viability.

Turelus

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

TBH they can complete content fine, they're just not as efficient or leaderboad competitive so no one uses them.

If your goal is just to clear content then you'd be surprised how many unoptimised builds actually work, they just take a long time.

I'm having a hard time believing that a build like the one in the original post could complete VMA. But hey, if I'm proven wrong then I'll give credit to the individual who made it happen.

Well can we at least modify and optimise it? 20 points in health is a lot of we're not using health skills.

I'm planning a hybrid Warden and would be more than happy to test if it can do VMA for you, but I would like to have an optimised build at least.

Koensol

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Lavennin wrote: »

I'd love to see hybrids made (or proven) viable, but the three attributes splitting seems too harsh a requirement. I'm thinking stamina + magicka.

The three attribute split is as hybrid as it gets.

Doesn't mean every hybrid should do a 3 split. That would be pretty dumb. Mag and stam split would be a hybrid as well, which is what I think most people aim for. Health can be fixed with food.

I agree that there are different ways to construct a hybrid. However, if ZOS were to prove viability of hybrid builds, then creating the most hybrid-like build stands to offer the best proof of viability.

That doesn't make sense. Crappy builds should never be viable, hybrid or not. The only good hybrids would be stam/mag splits. Else the stats get too spread out. No, I think the best possible hybrid build would be a more fitting test subject.

ForsakenSin

when they talk about hybrid been viable .. i think they are talking about hybrid been able to finish all of the story quests

Lavennin

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Lavennin wrote: »

I'd love to see hybrids made (or proven) viable, but the three attributes splitting seems too harsh a requirement. I'm thinking stamina + magicka.

The three attribute split is as hybrid as it gets.

But that's not how hybrid builds tend to be (in most other games). You usually still have a primary attribute, and you just choose versatility over raw damage by not dumping all your points there. (30 magicka, 20 stamina for example). Usually you try to get sufficient damage and resource pool, but not optimized damage and resource pool. Even attributes distribution rarely accomplishes that, unless there's a specific weapon/skill that scales off both stats (still, the scaling won't be the same for both so you aren't as scary as pure builds).

I guess my point is, it's not useful to prove an unusual build with arbitrary attribute distribution could work. Even if it could it would prove nothing. The number of players that actually run a hybrid build is all that matters, and I believe ZOS have the statistics.

If not many play such a build, it means it's not the optimal choice, and also not a viable enough choice. It may be as viable as a broken sword hilt in Dark Souls: technically viable, but why bother if not for a challenge.

GrumpyDuckling

Turelus wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

TBH they can complete content fine, they're just not as efficient or leaderboad competitive so no one uses them.

If your goal is just to clear content then you'd be surprised how many unoptimised builds actually work, they just take a long time.

I'm having a hard time believing that a build like the one in the original post could complete VMA. But hey, if I'm proven wrong then I'll give credit to the individual who made it happen.

Well can we at least modify and optimise it? 20 points in health is a lot of we're not using health skills.

I'm planning a hybrid Warden and would be more than happy to test if it can do VMA for you, but I would like to have an optimised build at least.

I understand your stance. I'm hesitant to agree, only because those 20 to 22 points into health are vital to the argument about why the attribute scaling system hurts hybrids. Instead of resources simply governing the amount of energy/hits a character has to perform skills and live, resources significantly alter the effectiveness of skills.

kyle.wilson

grumpyduckling wrote:

Here is the video evidence (from 32:32 to 35:05):

I watched that part. When they're arguing that hybrids are viable, but can only mention stam proc sets.

GrumpyDuckling

Koensol wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Lavennin wrote: »

I'd love to see hybrids made (or proven) viable, but the three attributes splitting seems too harsh a requirement. I'm thinking stamina + magicka.

The three attribute split is as hybrid as it gets.

Doesn't mean every hybrid should do a 3 split. That would be pretty dumb. Mag and stam split would be a hybrid as well, which is what I think most people aim for. Health can be fixed with food.

I agree that there are different ways to construct a hybrid. However, if ZOS were to prove viability of hybrid builds, then creating the most hybrid-like build stands to offer the best proof of viability.

That doesn't make sense. Crappy builds should never be viable, hybrid or not. The only good hybrids would be stam/mag splits. Else the stats get too spread out. No, I think the best possible hybrid build would be a more fitting test subject.

I'll repeat your own phrase to try to better explain my point. You said, "The only good hybrids would be stam/mag splits."

That is getting at the heart of my argument, which is that the attribute scaling system is a key contributor in what hurts hybrid builds. Instead of attributes simply governing resource management, they affect strength of skills, which significantly empowers magicka and stamina to the point that they are more valuable than health.

If a player wishes to do a 22/21/21 setup, the only penalty they should incur is lack of resource for casting abilities, not lack of power (which is why current hybrids suffer).

GrumpyDuckling

kyle.wilson wrote: »

grumpyduckling wrote:

Here is the video evidence (from 32:32 to 35:05):

I watched that part. When they're arguing that hybrids are viable, but can only mention stam proc sets.

Haha yes, they do get off track before the end of the answer. If I remember correctly this was filmed when stamina proc sets were all the rage in PVP.

Lavennin

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Lavennin wrote: »

I'd love to see hybrids made (or proven) viable, but the three attributes splitting seems too harsh a requirement. I'm thinking stamina + magicka.

The three attribute split is as hybrid as it gets.

Doesn't mean every hybrid should do a 3 split. That would be pretty dumb. Mag and stam split would be a hybrid as well, which is what I think most people aim for. Health can be fixed with food.

I agree that there are different ways to construct a hybrid. However, if ZOS were to prove viability of hybrid builds, then creating the most hybrid-like build stands to offer the best proof of viability.

That doesn't make sense. Crappy builds should never be viable, hybrid or not. The only good hybrids would be stam/mag splits. Else the stats get too spread out. No, I think the best possible hybrid build would be a more fitting test subject.

I'll repeat your own phrase to try to better explain my point. You said, "The only good hybrids would be stam/mag splits."

That is getting at the heart of my argument, which is that the attribute scaling system is a key contributor in what hurts hybrid builds. Instead of attributes simply governing resource management, they affect strength of skills, which significantly empowers magicka and stamina to the point that they are more valuable than health.

If a player wishes to do a 22/21/21 setup, the only penalty they should incur is lack of resource for casting abilities, not lack of power (which is why current hybrids suffer).

You are absolutely right, but this challenge would not accomplish anything. They are professional designers, surely they know hybrids are not viable enough (enough being the key here, as many things are technically viable, but not practically so).

They just...for whatever reason, made their decision to discourage it. They went with the lesser evil, most likely.

I don't think anyone would not like a system that allows build versatility:

Players loving hybrids are gonna be happy.
Players loving pure builds are gonna be happy too, since it makes their builds special, and they can feel the difference in raw power, a reward to their dedication.

GrumpyDuckling

Lavennin wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Lavennin wrote: »

I'd love to see hybrids made (or proven) viable, but the three attributes splitting seems too harsh a requirement. I'm thinking stamina + magicka.

The three attribute split is as hybrid as it gets.

Doesn't mean every hybrid should do a 3 split. That would be pretty dumb. Mag and stam split would be a hybrid as well, which is what I think most people aim for. Health can be fixed with food.

I agree that there are different ways to construct a hybrid. However, if ZOS were to prove viability of hybrid builds, then creating the most hybrid-like build stands to offer the best proof of viability.

That doesn't make sense. Crappy builds should never be viable, hybrid or not. The only good hybrids would be stam/mag splits. Else the stats get too spread out. No, I think the best possible hybrid build would be a more fitting test subject.

I'll repeat your own phrase to try to better explain my point. You said, "The only good hybrids would be stam/mag splits."

That is getting at the heart of my argument, which is that the attribute scaling system is a key contributor in what hurts hybrid builds. Instead of attributes simply governing resource management, they affect strength of skills, which significantly empowers magicka and stamina to the point that they are more valuable than health.

If a player wishes to do a 22/21/21 setup, the only penalty they should incur is lack of resource for casting abilities, not lack of power (which is why current hybrids suffer).

You are absolutely right, but this challenge would not accomplish anything. They are professional designers, surely they know hybrids are not viable enough (enough being the key here, as many things are technically viable, but not practically so).

They just...for whatever reason, made their decision to discourage it. They went with the lesser evil, most likely.

I don't think anyone would not like a system that allows build versatility:

Players loving hybrids are gonna be happy.
Players loving pure builds are gonna be happy too, since it makes their builds special, and they can feel the difference in raw power, a reward to their dedication.

Interesting take. If their reason for implementing an attribute scaling system was a "lesser evil," then I'd be very interested in knowing what that greater evil would have been.

I am certainly not satisfied with the "I don't believe that" comment by the Creative Director of ESO (which was accompanied by what I would describe as a confused, and somewhat scornful look), and would relish the opportunity to hear logical arguments for why attribute scaling and a weapon/spell damage divide are the preferred approach for this game.

Avran_Sylt

Don't say the hybrid needs to be able to complete vMA. You can complete vMA with little to no damage output at all if you at least know the mechanics. (and have good internet connection)

Challenge them to get onto the leader-boards with a hybrid build.

Avran_Sylt

@GrumpyDuckling

If you really want the attribute points to not matter to damage output, instead tie them into base resource regen.

GrumpyDuckling

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Don't say the hybrid needs to be able to complete vMA. You can complete vMA with little to no damage output at all if you at least know the mechanics. (and have good internet connection)

Challenge them to get onto the leader-boards with a hybrid build.

By definition, "viable" wouldn't be the word to describe leader board quality. Completion of VMA, however, is fair for the definition.

Tasear

Someone did it already I pts. Had like 23k dps

GrumpyDuckling

Tasear wrote: »

Someone did it already I pts. Had like 23k dps

I would be very interested in seeing details of the build. Do you have a link?

Tasear

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Someone did it already I pts. Had like 23k dps

I would be very interested in seeing details of the build. Do you have a link?

Would have to see if I can find it, but the author was inspired by the patch notes saying they really meant to allow hybrids with nonsensical patch notes. (it's a buff if you are under x) .

Turelus

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

TBH they can complete content fine, they're just not as efficient or leaderboad competitive so no one uses them.

If your goal is just to clear content then you'd be surprised how many unoptimised builds actually work, they just take a long time.

I'm having a hard time believing that a build like the one in the original post could complete VMA. But hey, if I'm proven wrong then I'll give credit to the individual who made it happen.

Well can we at least modify and optimise it? 20 points in health is a lot of we're not using health skills.

I'm planning a hybrid Warden and would be more than happy to test if it can do VMA for you, but I would like to have an optimised build at least.

I understand your stance. I'm hesitant to agree, only because those 20 to 22 points into health are vital to the argument about why the attribute scaling system hurts hybrids. Instead of resources simply governing the amount of energy/hits a character has to perform skills and live, resources significantly alter the effectiveness of skills.

The thing is I don't know many builds were people invest that high in health because it's always covered by food in one form or another.

Even when making a hybrid class if you want to clear the content you're going to have to be somewhat smart about your build, you're stacking a lot of bad build rules against proving that hybrids can work.

The attribute scaling does harm hybrids, but if you're trying to make a Mag/Stam hybrid the idea is (at least in my mind) you're halving your damage from one to have okay damage in two.
What you're asking for though is to have only 1/3 the effective scaling damage bonus just to make a point.

So are you more annoyed with the attribute damage scale system and want that addressed or do you want to see that a hybrid build can clear content?

Shadow_Viper_vX

Didn't you already create this thread...?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/339752/cmon-zos-stop-pushing-hybrids-morrowind-crafted-sets/p1

Oh look you did....

Turelus

Shadow_Viper_vX wrote: »

Didn't you already create this thread...?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/339752/cmon-zos-stop-pushing-hybrids-morrowind-crafted-sets/p1

Oh look you did....

I don't understand the hate for hybrid builds. They work well enough for casual content and if you're not playing casual content then you should really be making groups with other players you know.

At most the only time you're going to be forced into a situation where a hybrid could effect you would be veteran dungeons via group finder.

GrumpyDuckling

Turelus wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

TBH they can complete content fine, they're just not as efficient or leaderboad competitive so no one uses them.

If your goal is just to clear content then you'd be surprised how many unoptimised builds actually work, they just take a long time.

I'm having a hard time believing that a build like the one in the original post could complete VMA. But hey, if I'm proven wrong then I'll give credit to the individual who made it happen.

Well can we at least modify and optimise it? 20 points in health is a lot of we're not using health skills.

I'm planning a hybrid Warden and would be more than happy to test if it can do VMA for you, but I would like to have an optimised build at least.

I understand your stance. I'm hesitant to agree, only because those 20 to 22 points into health are vital to the argument about why the attribute scaling system hurts hybrids. Instead of resources simply governing the amount of energy/hits a character has to perform skills and live, resources significantly alter the effectiveness of skills.

The thing is I don't know many builds were people invest that high in health because it's always covered by food in one form or another.

Even when making a hybrid class if you want to clear the content you're going to have to be somewhat smart about your build, you're stacking a lot of bad build rules against proving that hybrids can work.

The attribute scaling does harm hybrids, but if you're trying to make a Mag/Stam hybrid the idea is (at least in my mind) you're halving your damage from one to have okay damage in two.
What you're asking for though is to have only 1/3 the effective scaling damage bonus just to make a point.

So are you more annoyed with the attribute damage scale system and want that addressed or do you want to see that a hybrid build can clear content?

I want to see someone from ZOS clear VMA with a build that is as close to a definition of a hybrid build as possible (the 22/21/21 attribute placement achieves that) so that the burden of proof about "viability" is as precise as possible. This would be the best approach for demanding scientific accuracy.

If leeway is given, then the definition of hybrid becomes diluted and raises questions about what we are considering a hybrid. For example, by entirely cutting out an attribute (health) we are composing a mixture that is 2/3 potential of what would be a "pure" mix. Since hybrids are a mix, the idea is to make make that mix as much of a mix as possible.

Turelus

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

TBH they can complete content fine, they're just not as efficient or leaderboad competitive so no one uses them.

If your goal is just to clear content then you'd be surprised how many unoptimised builds actually work, they just take a long time.

I'm having a hard time believing that a build like the one in the original post could complete VMA. But hey, if I'm proven wrong then I'll give credit to the individual who made it happen.

Well can we at least modify and optimise it? 20 points in health is a lot of we're not using health skills.

I'm planning a hybrid Warden and would be more than happy to test if it can do VMA for you, but I would like to have an optimised build at least.

I understand your stance. I'm hesitant to agree, only because those 20 to 22 points into health are vital to the argument about why the attribute scaling system hurts hybrids. Instead of resources simply governing the amount of energy/hits a character has to perform skills and live, resources significantly alter the effectiveness of skills.

The thing is I don't know many builds were people invest that high in health because it's always covered by food in one form or another.

Even when making a hybrid class if you want to clear the content you're going to have to be somewhat smart about your build, you're stacking a lot of bad build rules against proving that hybrids can work.

The attribute scaling does harm hybrids, but if you're trying to make a Mag/Stam hybrid the idea is (at least in my mind) you're halving your damage from one to have okay damage in two.
What you're asking for though is to have only 1/3 the effective scaling damage bonus just to make a point.

So are you more annoyed with the attribute damage scale system and want that addressed or do you want to see that a hybrid build can clear content?

I want to see someone from ZOS clear VMA with a build that is as close to a definition of a hybrid build as possible (the 22/21/21 attribute placement achieves that) so that the burden of proof about "viability" is as precise as possible. This would be the best approach for demanding scientific accuracy.

If leeway is given, then the definition of hybrid becomes diluted and raises questions about what we are considering a hybrid. For example, by entirely cutting out an attribute (health) we are composing a mixture that is 2/3 potential of what would be a "pure" mix. Since hybrids are a mix, the idea is to make make that mix as much of a mix as possible.

So what's the definition of hybrid? As my understanding it was any build which doesn't focus one attribute, so a mag/stam focus build would be a hybrid no?

Edit: Okay so after rereading maybe I should phrase that as "who's definition of hybrid".

What is your issue here, why are you so annoyed that ZOS has allowed some hybrid sets and given a slight buff to hybrid builds?

GrumpyDuckling

Shadow_Viper_vX wrote: »

Didn't you already create this thread...?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/339752/cmon-zos-stop-pushing-hybrids-morrowind-crafted-sets/p1

Oh look you did....

The thread you linked voiced displeasure about ZOS creating hybrid sets within the current non-friendly attribute scaling framework of the game. This thread asks ZOS to prove their viability stance as it pertains to hybrid builds.

Turelus

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Shadow_Viper_vX wrote: »

Didn't you already create this thread...?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/339752/cmon-zos-stop-pushing-hybrids-morrowind-crafted-sets/p1

Oh look you did....

The thread you linked voiced displeasure about ZOS creating hybrid sets within the current non-friendly attribute scaling framework of the game. This thread asks ZOS to prove their viability stance as it pertains to hybrid builds.

But why? Why does this upset you so much? Why can't you just let people play a hybrid and be less efficient if they want?

Is this thread about something else like the displeasure of the "scale by level" changes but you're just arguing hybrids? I really don't understand.

GrumpyDuckling

Turelus wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

TBH they can complete content fine, they're just not as efficient or leaderboad competitive so no one uses them.

If your goal is just to clear content then you'd be surprised how many unoptimised builds actually work, they just take a long time.

I'm having a hard time believing that a build like the one in the original post could complete VMA. But hey, if I'm proven wrong then I'll give credit to the individual who made it happen.

Well can we at least modify and optimise it? 20 points in health is a lot of we're not using health skills.

I'm planning a hybrid Warden and would be more than happy to test if it can do VMA for you, but I would like to have an optimised build at least.

I understand your stance. I'm hesitant to agree, only because those 20 to 22 points into health are vital to the argument about why the attribute scaling system hurts hybrids. Instead of resources simply governing the amount of energy/hits a character has to perform skills and live, resources significantly alter the effectiveness of skills.

The thing is I don't know many builds were people invest that high in health because it's always covered by food in one form or another.

Even when making a hybrid class if you want to clear the content you're going to have to be somewhat smart about your build, you're stacking a lot of bad build rules against proving that hybrids can work.

The attribute scaling does harm hybrids, but if you're trying to make a Mag/Stam hybrid the idea is (at least in my mind) you're halving your damage from one to have okay damage in two.
What you're asking for though is to have only 1/3 the effective scaling damage bonus just to make a point.

So are you more annoyed with the attribute damage scale system and want that addressed or do you want to see that a hybrid build can clear content?

I want to see someone from ZOS clear VMA with a build that is as close to a definition of a hybrid build as possible (the 22/21/21 attribute placement achieves that) so that the burden of proof about "viability" is as precise as possible. This would be the best approach for demanding scientific accuracy.

If leeway is given, then the definition of hybrid becomes diluted and raises questions about what we are considering a hybrid. For example, by entirely cutting out an attribute (health) we are composing a mixture that is 2/3 potential of what would be a "pure" mix. Since hybrids are a mix, the idea is to make make that mix as much of a mix as possible.

So what's the definition of hybrid? As my understanding it was any build which doesn't focus one attribute, so a mag/stam focus build would be a hybrid no?

Edit: Okay so after rereading maybe I should phrase that as "who's definition of hybrid".

What is your issue here, why are you so annoyed that ZOS has allowed some hybrid sets and given a slight buff to hybrid builds?

I think my "issue," as you call it, is quite clear in the original post of the thread. Attribute scaling and weapon/spell damage divide.