So with the new changes coming can other classes tank raids now?

lunalitetempler

Currently on live you have to be a DK. Don't know too much about theif nerfs but I'm guessing the warhorn spam won't be a thing any longer. Does this mean other classes can tank raids?

AlnilamE

I've tanked raids with my Templar. I've had friends tank on their Nightblade tanks.

Sorc tanks seem to be rarer, so I've only run into them in dungeons.

Autolycus

This was already the case. I've been tanking as a NB for 3 years and as a Sorc for 6 months. Still possible in the Morrowind as far as I can tell.

lunalitetempler

I know its possible I just mean DK meta is spamming warhorn for group buffs so they are number one on live. I dont think that's going to be happening next patch with the nerfs so I'm trying to figure out what it is exactly they have now as a huge advantage over other classes? I imagine they will slot shield wall and heavy attack to get back Stam while its up. But anyone can do that, can also get armor capped and mitigation buffs etc.

Lynx7386

If anything, this has only put dks more in the position as meta tanks. They still have helping hands, nightblade tanks lost siphoning.

Brrrofski

Isn't chains why do tanks are meta for stuff anyway?

NightbladeMechanics

Brrrofski wrote: »

Isn't chains why dk tanks are meta for stuff anyway?

^ that's what I thought. Well, that and their strong sustain, but nightblades have really good sustain too.

Autolycus

lunalitetempler wrote: »

I know its possible I just mean DK meta is spamming warhorn for group buffs so they are number one on live. I dont think that's going to be happening next patch with the nerfs so I'm trying to figure out what it is exactly they have now as a huge advantage over other classes? I imagine they will slot shield wall and heavy attack to get back Stam while its up. But anyone can do that, can also get armor capped and mitigation buffs etc.

Well that's not quite accurate either actually DKs are less efficient at War Horns than NBs and Sorcs are, but they are a lot easier to play. In practice though, trials groups follow a specific horn rotation so getting it faster is pointless as long as it's available when it's your turn.

But with respect to the changes, DK sustain is going to be fine and so is NB and Sorc sustain, at least based on what I've seen so far. I don't Templar tank so I won't make any claims there. I suspect it will be like it is now, where people simply say DK is best because it's easier, when really a good tank is a good tank. Sometimes we need chains... and maybe the top of the top groups on leaderboards will still prefer having DK tanks for that reason, but everyone else just has their magDK DDs do it (like on the Twins).

paulsimonps

Autolycus wrote: »

lunalitetempler wrote: »

I know its possible I just mean DK meta is spamming warhorn for group buffs so they are number one on live. I dont think that's going to be happening next patch with the nerfs so I'm trying to figure out what it is exactly they have now as a huge advantage over other classes? I imagine they will slot shield wall and heavy attack to get back Stam while its up. But anyone can do that, can also get armor capped and mitigation buffs etc.

Well that's not quite accurate either actually DKs are less efficient at War Horns than NBs and Sorcs are, but they are a lot easier to play. In practice though, trials groups follow a specific horn rotation so getting it faster is pointless as long as it's available when it's your turn.

But with respect to the changes, DK sustain is going to be fine and so is NB and Sorc sustain, at least based on what I've seen so far. I don't Templar tank so I won't make any claims there. I suspect it will be like it is now, where people simply say DK is best because it's easier, when really a good tank is a good tank. Sometimes we need chains... and maybe the top of the top groups on leaderboards will still prefer having DK tanks for that reason, but everyone else just has their magDK DDs do it (like on the Twins).

Lets not forget the DK's AoE Minor Maim, its quite a big deal after the changes for concussion to minor vulnerability from minor maim. Being able to with one attack get Minor Maim on 6 targets and more then that if you do it again with a good up time on it as well is priceless in a lot of fights. Sure the Wardens have a lot of Frost damage but Chilled's minor maim up time can not compete with Choking Talons. And the way that DK's get such good sustain is to spam a AoE group Damage shield. Sure its not super strong, but the way mitigation works means that it can help groups quite a lot, and it helps melee players even more, mostly stamina player but all Melee in general cause they are the ones in harms way and they are the ones getting hit by the shield.

lunalitetempler

Lynx7386 wrote: »

If anything, this has only put dks more in the position as meta tanks. They still have helping hands, nightblade tanks lost siphoning.

Helping hands might make it easyer for them than other classes but they wont be able to use warhorn, which is the huge advantage on live. That's my point.

lunalitetempler

Autolycus wrote: »

lunalitetempler wrote: »

I know its possible I just mean DK meta is spamming warhorn for group buffs so they are number one on live. I dont think that's going to be happening next patch with the nerfs so I'm trying to figure out what it is exactly they have now as a huge advantage over other classes? I imagine they will slot shield wall and heavy attack to get back Stam while its up. But anyone can do that, can also get armor capped and mitigation buffs etc.

Well that's not quite accurate either actually DKs are less efficient at War Horns than NBs and Sorcs are, but they are a lot easier to play. In practice though, trials groups follow a specific horn rotation so getting it faster is pointless as long as it's available when it's your turn.

But with respect to the changes, DK sustain is going to be fine and so is NB and Sorc sustain, at least based on what I've seen so far. I don't Templar tank so I won't make any claims there. I suspect it will be like it is now, where people simply say DK is best because it's easier, when really a good tank is a good tank. Sometimes we need chains... and maybe the top of the top groups on leaderboards will still prefer having DK tanks for that reason, but everyone else just has their magDK DDs do it (like on the Twins).

That pretty much answers my question, thanks!

Brrrofski

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Isn't chains why dk tanks are meta for stuff anyway?

^ that's what I thought. Well, that and their strong sustain, but nightblades have really good sustain too.

My saptank out ults, out sustains and out damages any Stam dk tank build i've had. I can also heal the rest of my team if I need to. But chains and talons make trials and things like dsa so much easier.

Autolycus

paulsimonps wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

lunalitetempler wrote: »

I know its possible I just mean DK meta is spamming warhorn for group buffs so they are number one on live. I dont think that's going to be happening next patch with the nerfs so I'm trying to figure out what it is exactly they have now as a huge advantage over other classes? I imagine they will slot shield wall and heavy attack to get back Stam while its up. But anyone can do that, can also get armor capped and mitigation buffs etc.

Well that's not quite accurate either actually DKs are less efficient at War Horns than NBs and Sorcs are, but they are a lot easier to play. In practice though, trials groups follow a specific horn rotation so getting it faster is pointless as long as it's available when it's your turn.

But with respect to the changes, DK sustain is going to be fine and so is NB and Sorc sustain, at least based on what I've seen so far. I don't Templar tank so I won't make any claims there. I suspect it will be like it is now, where people simply say DK is best because it's easier, when really a good tank is a good tank. Sometimes we need chains... and maybe the top of the top groups on leaderboards will still prefer having DK tanks for that reason, but everyone else just has their magDK DDs do it (like on the Twins).

Lets not forget the DK's AoE Minor Maim, its quite a big deal after the changes for concussion to minor vulnerability from minor maim. Being able to with one attack get Minor Maim on 6 targets and more then that if you do it again with a good up time on it as well is priceless in a lot of fights. Sure the Wardens have a lot of Frost damage but Chilled's minor maim up time can not compete with Choking Talons. And the way that DK's get such good sustain is to spam a AoE group Damage shield. Sure its not super strong, but the way mitigation works means that it can help groups quite a lot, and it helps melee players even more, mostly stamina player but all Melee in general cause they are the ones in harms way and they are the ones getting hit by the shield.

Yeah that's a really good point; I'm not going to debate the utility there as I too see it first hand in the groups I organize for endgame content (it's not like we don't use DK tanks or something lol). We speculate on these things a lot and try to incorporate as much as possible, and you're certainly right in this regard. The closest we can get with a non-DK tank to accomplishing the same thing with Minor Maim is to use Deep Slash, which is really not a bad option considering we can still pretty easily have our War Horn available every time it's our turn. Still, it requires two GCDs to accomplish the same thing and costs stamina instead of magicka, and has no synergy potential. Keep in mind that I'm not trying to play this "who is the best tank" game. I'm merely pointing out that there are a variety of ways to go about completing content; the groups for which DKs are the best tanks are very specific in composition, with a very specific goal in mind, and this only applies to a very specific segment of the community from a broader sense.

The damage shields from DKs are certainly interesting how they benefit the group. Again not going to argue against this; I see the value too. Let's not forget that other classes do have something to bring to the table, the question is about which utility is preferred instead of whether or not there is any benefit at all. For example a nightblade tank in PA/Alkosh/Sentinel is providing a significant amount of healing to the group, a stam DK tank provides a lot of healing too with pure Vigor heals, but a NB's heals are broader in scope and suit that purpose in a different way. Super-Vigor is one way to go about it; a collection of other heals can be equally as valuable if managed properly. Similarly, Sorcs can bring a fair amount of utility as well, Empowered Ward may not typically be the top choice for a tank, but a properly built Sorc tank can easily take Empowered (and only ever actually need to use the shield and a few isolated segments of a handful of fights) and use it systematically to constantly provide Minor Intellect to a full-magicka group.

It's harder to make the case for a magblade running stam sets and Vigor next to a DK with Super Vigor in all medium on Live currently, but it can still be managed in a way that those heals, while not individually as potent as that stam DK's Vigor, collectively are extremely beneficial (and really a stamblade can get equally or more potent healing as an off-tank, a hybrid strategy works quite well too imo). Something like Refreshing Path could be boosted enough even in full medium to be a significant amount of stagnant, always-present healing for the group. However the game is changing to a large extent. I make no claims to the new meta or who is best, only that it's doable with any of the three I've played (I don't Templar tank so I can't really speculate there). The way we structure our resources and how we sustain them is substantially different for a NB now, but I'm still successfully tanking as a NB on the PTS right now.

ArgoCye

@Autolycus what are you using for sustain when nb tanking? Have u changed sets? I love tanking with magnb, but have become worried with the changes to siphoning strikes.

Autolycus

ArgoCye wrote: »

@Autolycus what are you using for sustain when nb tanking? Have u changed sets? I love tanking with magnb, but have become worried with the changes to siphoning strikes.

Well so far I've had to restructure the way I balance my max stats as the main change. Right now I'm still trying to do everything in Ebon/Alkosh/Sentinel to keep things constant. I don't see a way around the changes to Shards/Orbs; I think we simply have to have higher stamina than magicka now to get the right stat back. We can still recover magicka while blocking so it makes sense to just get whatever stam support we may need from the group. I'm toying with lowest possible block cost without changing sets, average magicka recovery, and then supplementing those things with Undaunted Command and Shards/Orbs.

Unfortunately, the way SA/LS is currently, that skill is basically dead. I consider myself to be pretty good at getting my light attacks in (but ofc we all miss light attacks) and I barely see any benefit whatsoever from it. We'll see what changes they make to it in the coming weeks... hopefully they will make LS cost magicka and SA cost stamina, or just remove the cost to it. If that's the case we should have zero problems.

Take this with a grain of salt because I'm not testing every class right now, but I think that if as tanks we want to continue doing utility/group support setups with sets like Alkosh, we're probably all going to rely on our group for sustain to some extent. Whether we stay this route or go for more sustain, I don't know. I had a decent time managing my resources in the stuff I've run so far, though I wonder if it's actually an easier time on another class. I mean they gave us almost nothing of value in exchange for the 61% nerf to our stam return.

Edit: I didn't add this initially because I wanted to make sure I wasn't going to break NDA by bringing up the new trial sets. But interestingly enough, NBs still have very strong ultimate gain and the lowest cost ultimate available. I'm speculating ofc, but if we can still maintain constant up-time on War Horns with 1 tank and both healers (assuming the current trend is any indication of future performance), it might be extremely beneficial for a NB tank running War Machine. Ofc we can accomplish the same thing with stamblade dps too... it's all up in the air right now but still seems like some cool potential.

idk

@lunalitetempler

Someone has been feeding you bad information if they're saying one has to be a dk to tank vet trials.

All classes tank them. A Templar has cleared vMoL HM as a MT. NBs and sorcs tank vMoL all the time, and all the rest of the trials.

Templars are the only class on live with image access to the protection buff reducing their damage taken by 8%.