Major/Minor Defile should affect shield strength

Solariken

What do you guys think? Shields, especially Hardened Ward and Healing Ward are STRONG (together overpowered as hell which any honest player will admit). If sorcs are going to be left alone to have it all again for another patch, I feel that ZOS should throw us a tiny bone and give us a simple counter - the Major/Minor Defile debuffs should reduce shield strength. This would also bring the Pirate Skeleton monster set down to earth for Sorc use.

This is not a nerf sorc thread. This is a #makecountersgreatagain thread. Also, Shieldbreaker is not a counter, it's pure cheese so let's leave that out of this discussion 'kay?

UppGRAYxDD

Lmao....Zos touch Wrobel's precious sorc....I would be ecstatic if they actually let you do crit dmg against shields

CyrusArya

I'm being honest when I say I don't struggle against sorcs on any class and don't think it's overpowered. Sure fights can stall out playing as or against a sorc, but that's a two way street. Sorcs struggle to kill other good players on good classes more than other classes too, and that is also a function of shield mechanics.

As for your suggestion, it's not a good one because healing and shielding are not comparable mechanics. There is no mending or any buff for that matter that increases shield size, nor can shields crit.

People say sorc isn't getting nerfed but it is, and has seen more critical nerfs than any other class. Just because the other classes are getting that treatment now doesn't change the history of nerfs to sorcs. Furthermore, the overall changes to CPs and sustain affect sorc more drastically than others due to the nature of how an unshielded sorc is a dead sorc, as this class completely crutches on a one dimensional defensive scheme.

All in all, as someone with a pretty broad and unbiased perspective, I think people need to stop crying about sorcs and get good. Despite what it seems like on paper, having actually tested on pts, sorc seems pretty balanced.

HugeMuffin

I still want to see the numbers shake out. Sorcs report that shield stacking is currently impossible to do and that they were just as nerfed as templars and nightlbades by the regen loss. (I heard one guy killed his cat when he tried to shield stack. He was about to hit the second button on his keyboard and slipped on a stick of lit dynamite. Tragic, really.) Other players are saying that casting two spells in rapid succession is as easy as pressing two buttons.

I think we need to run some tests to see who is right.

Edit: If shield stacking isn't so vital or that big of an edge in PvP, I'm sure that sorcs won't mind seeing it countered, then. Turning PvP into a rocks-paper-scissors game would create a dynamic meta and ensure that every fight is different. This change is one of many counters that could be re-introduced to make PvP Meta fun.

BuggeX

what regen lose are anyone talking? there are plenty of sorcs on azura dealing hell of a dmg and still stacking shilds for ever.
sorcs arnt affected by any nerf so far. bgs are no cps only so far. anyone saying sorcs are nerfed are plain retarted

Solariken

CyrusArya wrote: »

I'm being honest when I say I don't struggle against sorcs on any class and don't think it's overpowered. Sure fights can stall out playing as or against a sorc, but that's a two way street. Sorcs struggle to kill other good players on good classes more than other classes too, and that is also a function of shield mechanics.

As for your suggestion, it's not a good one because healing and shielding are not comparable mechanics. There is no mending or any buff for that matter that increases shield size, nor can shields crit.

People say sorc isn't getting nerfed but it is, and has seen more critical nerfs than any other class. Just because the other classes are getting that treatment now doesn't change the history of nerfs to sorcs. Furthermore, the overall changes to CPs and sustain affect sorc more drastically than others due to the nature of how an unshielded sorc is a dead sorc, as this class completely crutches on a one dimensional defensive scheme.

All in all, as someone with a pretty broad and unbiased perspective, I think people need to stop crying about sorcs and get good. Despite what it seems like on paper, having actually tested on pts, sorc seems pretty balanced.

@CyrusArya I believe you when you say that's how you feel, but a) I think that puts you into the tiny minority and b) you play a sorc at a pretty high level and I have watched you face-tank 10 pugs while getting kills and never going OOM, so it's going to be hard to mask your bias on this.

This game needs more RPS mechanics and shield stacking doesn't have a direct counter (again, other than Shieldbreaker which is stupid lazy cheese). Also, the reason Pirate Skeleton is vastly more powerful on a sorc is because shields get the 30% damage reduction with no negative effects at all. Additionally, two shields more than doubles your health pool and you still have great healing underneath whilst being uncrittable.

My proposal isn't even a direct nerf to shields, it's just adding a counter to something that currently has none.

Vosital

This would work. Any nerf to the monstrosity that is Sorc right now would is a good thing.

Strider_Roshin

I don't think anyone's resource management was as nerfed as Nightblades.

DKs had their resource management heavily reduced with the change to battle roar, and helping hands.

Maplars got magicka steal reduced to 300, Stamplars got their stam from Repentance reduced.

Sorcs.... *Next*

Nightblades had their resource management removed with the changes to Siphoning Strikes. Granted I don't think these changes will stick considering how useless they made this move. At the very least I would like Nightblades to be bumped up to the "reduced" level. And Sorcs (stam sorcs especially) need their Dark Exchange (especially​ the Dark Deal morph) reduced.

Wardens will need to be discussed in the category beneath this one.

NightbladeMechanics

Shields aren't heals. Keep them functionally different.

Also a sorc without Pirate is entirely mortal already.

Xvorg

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Shields aren't heals. Keep them functionally different.

Also a sorc without Pirate is entirely mortal already.

Maybe he meant Major Breach

Poliwrath

I like it

Solariken

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Shields aren't heals. Keep them functionally different.

Also a sorc without Pirate is entirely mortal already.

Are they really that different though @NightbladeMechanics? That's a hard line to draw especially since the heal from Healing Ward is a direct function of the shield value. They are also like heals in that they essentially create a secondary pool of health to pre-empt damage. It's like inverse healing. But anyway, you still have to admit it's one of the few mechanics without any true counter.

TheStealthDude

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Shields aren't heals. Keep them functionally different.

Also a sorc without Pirate is entirely mortal already.

Are they really that different though @NightbladeMechanics? That's a hard line to draw especially since the heal from Healing Ward is a direct function of the shield value. They are also like heals in that they essentially create a secondary pool of health to pre-empt damage. It's like inverse healing. But anyway, you still have to admit it's one of the few mechanics without any true counter.

Yes, they are really that different. Having one ability available where they interact together doesn't change the fact they they function entirely different:

Heals - Reactive defense by nature, Scale off of Max Stats + Spell/Weapon damage, can crit, full value per cast always given.

Shields - Proactive defense by nature, Scale off of either Max Health or Max Magicka only, can't crit themselves, go away after a few seconds potentially not fully utilized.

NightbladeMechanics

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Shields aren't heals. Keep them functionally different.

Also a sorc without Pirate is entirely mortal already.

Are they really that different though @NightbladeMechanics? That's a hard line to draw especially since the heal from Healing Ward is a direct function of the shield value. They are also like heals in that they essentially create a secondary pool of health to pre-empt damage. It's like inverse healing. But anyway, you still have to admit it's one of the few mechanics without any true counter.

Yes, they are different. Yes, there are counters.

Shields are like heals in that they take damage for you, but they are not heals in that they cannot take critical damage, do not have resistances, can exceed your max health amount, cannot be defiled, and will not keep you from dying should your health reach zero underneath them from, say, Shieldbreaker.

Shields are exactly that -- barriers, obstacles, walls. They are between you and your opponent, but they are not you.

Healing ward is but one of many shields in the game. It applies a simultaneous heal and shield which both scale on your target's missing health, but the two are distinct mechanics.

The counters to shields are dots, timed burst, and strained sustain. Dots chew through them, timed burst pops the person under them, and shields are all some of the most expensive skills in the game to cast frequently.

Are you frustrated in part because Pirate Skeleton and CP defend against dots and timed burst and we have acquired so much sustain over the last several patches that we can spam shields with impunity? Just wait until next patch. Sorcs have to be waaaay more careful with shield casts on PTS, and CP mitigation is being nerfed.

Xsorus

Remove Protection from Shields, that basically the only fix needed

Heal Debuffs would cripple shields, and esp non Pirate Users.

NightbladeMechanics

Xsorus wrote: »

Remove Protection from Shields, that basically the only fix needed

Heal Debuffs would cripple shields, and esp non Pirate Users.

Is minor protection on shields op?

Is Pirate Skeleton balanced on everything except sorcs and other shield-reliant builds?

If the answer to both of these questions is yes, then by all means make protection buffs not apply to shields.

If not, you sir have suggested a bandaid fix.

Solariken

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Shields aren't heals. Keep them functionally different.

Also a sorc without Pirate is entirely mortal already.

Are they really that different though @NightbladeMechanics? That's a hard line to draw especially since the heal from Healing Ward is a direct function of the shield value. They are also like heals in that they essentially create a secondary pool of health to pre-empt damage. It's like inverse healing. But anyway, you still have to admit it's one of the few mechanics without any true counter.

Yes, they are different. Yes, there are counters.

Shields are like heals in that they take damage for you, but they are not heals in that they cannot take critical damage, do not have resistances, can exceed your max health amount, cannot be defiled, and will not keep you from dying should your health reach zero underneath them from, say, Shieldbreaker.

Shields are exactly that -- barriers, obstacles, walls. They are between you and your opponent, but they are not you.

Healing ward is but one of many shields in the game. It applies a simultaneous heal and shield which both scale on your target's missing health, but the two are distinct mechanics.

The counters to shields are dots, timed burst, and strained sustain. Dots chew through them, timed burst pops the person under them, and shields are all some of the most expensive skills in the game to cast frequently.

Are you frustrated in part because Pirate Skeleton and CP defend against dots and timed burst and we have acquired so much sustain over the last several patches that we can spam shields with impunity? Just wait until next patch. Sorcs have to be waaaay more careful with shield casts on PTS, and CP mitigation is being nerfed.

I've been doing a lot of BG's and duels on PTS - sorc sustain appears largely unaffected and without pointed changes, decent Sorcs will come through largely unscathed. Have you ever been to Azura's Star? Decent Sorcs have shields for days there too.

You say that shields are not "you" but with regard to how the game treats them mechanically, they are more "you" than not. If I set you on fire and then you shield, the shield will eat the DOT and your actual hp will not be touched (bleeds are the only exception but we don't have access to enough bleed effects IMO).

Timed burst works great against bad Sorcs, but decent Sorcs don't drop shields and no matter how you time it there will be a portion of your damage lost to the shield.

Again it's NOT a sorc nerf I'm gunning for. I want a true, available counter specifically to shields. Let's also nerf Lich while we're at it, make it just a flat regen boost that is always active while you are below the magicka % threshold. This would make it only active if you actually have the 5-pc bonus equipped - no more of these bar swap for the buff shenanigans.

NightbladeMechanics

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Shields aren't heals. Keep them functionally different.

Also a sorc without Pirate is entirely mortal already.

Are they really that different though @NightbladeMechanics? That's a hard line to draw especially since the heal from Healing Ward is a direct function of the shield value. They are also like heals in that they essentially create a secondary pool of health to pre-empt damage. It's like inverse healing. But anyway, you still have to admit it's one of the few mechanics without any true counter.

Yes, they are different. Yes, there are counters.

Shields are like heals in that they take damage for you, but they are not heals in that they cannot take critical damage, do not have resistances, can exceed your max health amount, cannot be defiled, and will not keep you from dying should your health reach zero underneath them from, say, Shieldbreaker.

Shields are exactly that -- barriers, obstacles, walls. They are between you and your opponent, but they are not you.

Healing ward is but one of many shields in the game. It applies a simultaneous heal and shield which both scale on your target's missing health, but the two are distinct mechanics.

The counters to shields are dots, timed burst, and strained sustain. Dots chew through them, timed burst pops the person under them, and shields are all some of the most expensive skills in the game to cast frequently.

Are you frustrated in part because Pirate Skeleton and CP defend against dots and timed burst and we have acquired so much sustain over the last several patches that we can spam shields with impunity? Just wait until next patch. Sorcs have to be waaaay more careful with shield casts on PTS, and CP mitigation is being nerfed.

I've been doing a lot of BG's and duels on PTS - sorc sustain appears largely unaffected and without pointed changes, decent Sorcs will come through largely unscathed. Have you ever been to Azura's Star? Decent Sorcs have shields for days there too.

You say that shields are not "you" but with regard to how the game treats them mechanically, they are more "you" than not. If I set you on fire and then you shield, the shield will eat the DOT and your actual hp will not be touched (bleeds are the only exception but we don't have access to enough bleed effects IMO).

Timed burst works great against bad Sorcs, but decent Sorcs don't drop shields and no matter how you time it there will be a portion of your damage lost to the shield.

Again it's NOT a sorc nerf I'm gunning for. I want a true, available counter specifically to shields. Let's also nerf Lich while we're at it, make it just a flat regen boost that is always active while you are below the magicka % threshold. This would make it only active if you actually have the 5-pc bonus equipped - no more of these bar swap for the buff shenanigans.

Have you played as a magicka sorc on pts? Are your experiences firsthand accounts, or simply impressions having fought against them with your preceding bias? Did you ask how they've adapted their builds or how their sustain fared in the fights?

Decent players of any class will adapt and move on next patch.

I play on Azura's a lot, more on my sorc than on my nb. My shields take noticeably more damage due to the loss of Hardy and Elemental Defender in addition to shrinking due to Bastion. My sustain is also noticeably more limited even after switching to a higher sustain build. I have to be way more careful when I cast shields there.

Your fire dot analogy illustrates a shield protecting someone from damage. Ok, that's their job. Of course my shields are more "me" than not. They're my shields. They certainly won't protect you from damage. But at the same time, my shields do not represent my life. I can still die to damage that bypasses the shields as if they don't exist.

I time burst under top sorcs' shields all the time. You have to play mind games with them. You say part of your damage will be absorbed by a shield like it's a bad thing, but leaving a partial shield up and baiting the sorc to go offensive, thinking he's safe, is one tactic for killing him. Also did you know that the game records critical strikes against shields, and any damage from a crit which overflows a shield will apply critical damage to the health bar and not be mitigated by resistances?

Lich is about to come into a meta just like spellweave and draugr are going out. Should we have nerfed those sets two patches ago because building damage was favorable? Lich 5pc alone equates to 344 base magicka regen normalized for the cooldown. Amber Plasm grants 300 magicka and stam regen. If you cast an ability every global cooldown with an average cost of 2500 magicka, Seducer 5pc alone grants 400 effective base regen. Each of those sets mathematically outperforms Lich. Therefore, if you nerf Lich numerically, they must be nerfed as well. Or, if you make it so you must have the Lich 5pc bonus in order to receive its effect, it must be buffed to compete. Also keep in mind that Seducer 5pc is unaffected by this new regen siphoning CP star. Should we make that CP star increase ability costs too, so that it interacts with all sets evenly? I mean at that point we're basically making poisons into passive effects.

Do you see the slippery slope of balance now?

Edit: last thing, don't mess with bar swap activated sets. Those sets drastically increase build diversity in the game and make competitive builds attainable for people who can't get vma/master weapons. The functionality is necessary. This edit is not commentary on any one set's state of balance.

Solariken

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Shields aren't heals. Keep them functionally different.

Also a sorc without Pirate is entirely mortal already.

Are they really that different though @NightbladeMechanics? That's a hard line to draw especially since the heal from Healing Ward is a direct function of the shield value. They are also like heals in that they essentially create a secondary pool of health to pre-empt damage. It's like inverse healing. But anyway, you still have to admit it's one of the few mechanics without any true counter.

Yes, they are different. Yes, there are counters.

Shields are like heals in that they take damage for you, but they are not heals in that they cannot take critical damage, do not have resistances, can exceed your max health amount, cannot be defiled, and will not keep you from dying should your health reach zero underneath them from, say, Shieldbreaker.

Shields are exactly that -- barriers, obstacles, walls. They are between you and your opponent, but they are not you.

Healing ward is but one of many shields in the game. It applies a simultaneous heal and shield which both scale on your target's missing health, but the two are distinct mechanics.

The counters to shields are dots, timed burst, and strained sustain. Dots chew through them, timed burst pops the person under them, and shields are all some of the most expensive skills in the game to cast frequently.

Are you frustrated in part because Pirate Skeleton and CP defend against dots and timed burst and we have acquired so much sustain over the last several patches that we can spam shields with impunity? Just wait until next patch. Sorcs have to be waaaay more careful with shield casts on PTS, and CP mitigation is being nerfed.

I've been doing a lot of BG's and duels on PTS - sorc sustain appears largely unaffected and without pointed changes, decent Sorcs will come through largely unscathed. Have you ever been to Azura's Star? Decent Sorcs have shields for days there too.

You say that shields are not "you" but with regard to how the game treats them mechanically, they are more "you" than not. If I set you on fire and then you shield, the shield will eat the DOT and your actual hp will not be touched (bleeds are the only exception but we don't have access to enough bleed effects IMO).

Timed burst works great against bad Sorcs, but decent Sorcs don't drop shields and no matter how you time it there will be a portion of your damage lost to the shield.

Again it's NOT a sorc nerf I'm gunning for. I want a true, available counter specifically to shields. Let's also nerf Lich while we're at it, make it just a flat regen boost that is always active while you are below the magicka % threshold. This would make it only active if you actually have the 5-pc bonus equipped - no more of these bar swap for the buff shenanigans.

Have you played as a magicka sorc on pts? Are your experiences firsthand accounts, or simply impressions having fought against them with your preceding bias? Did you ask how they've adapted their builds or how their sustain fared in the fights?

Decent players of any class will adapt and move on next patch.

I play on Azura's a lot, more on my sorc than on my nb. My shields take noticeably more damage due to the loss of Hardy and Elemental Defender in addition to shrinking due to Bastion. My sustain is also noticeably more limited even after switching to a higher sustain build. I have to be way more careful when I cast shields there.

Your fire dot analogy illustrates a shield protecting someone from damage. Ok, that's their job. Of course my shields are more "me" than not. They're my shields. They certainly won't protect you from damage. But at the same time, my shields do not represent my life. I can still die to damage that bypasses the shields as if they don't exist.

I time burst under top sorcs' shields all the time. You have to play mind games with them. You say part of your damage will be absorbed by a shield like it's a bad thing, but leaving a partial shield up and baiting the sorc to go offensive, thinking he's safe, is one tactic for killing him. Also did you know that the game records critical strikes against shields, and any damage from a crit which overflows a shield will apply critical damage to the health bar and not be mitigated by resistances?

Lich is about to come into a meta just like spellweave and draugr are going out. Should we have nerfed those sets two patches ago because building damage was favorable? Lich 5pc alone equates to 344 base magicka regen normalized for the cooldown. Amber Plasm grants 300 magicka and stam regen. If you cast an ability every global cooldown with an average cost of 2500 magicka, Seducer 5pc alone grants 400 effective base regen. Each of those sets mathematically outperforms Lich. Therefore, if you nerf Lich numerically, they must be nerfed as well. Or, if you make it so you must have the Lich 5pc bonus in order to receive its effect, it must be buffed to compete. Also keep in mind that Seducer 5pc is unaffected by this new regen siphoning CP star. Should we make that CP star increase ability costs too, so that it interacts with all sets evenly? I mean at that point we're basically making poisons into passive effects.

Do you see the slippery slope of balance now?

Edit: last thing, don't mess with bar swap activated sets. Those sets drastically increase build diversity in the game and make competitive builds attainable for people who can't get vma/master weapons. The functionality is necessary. This edit is not commentary on any one set's state of balance.

Mostly fighting against Sorcs. I'm​ not a great mSorc PvPer nor do I personally like the playsyle required to be successful as a magsorc in PvP so mine mostly rots and I just sit back and get salty about the fact that nearly every recap in Cyrodiil shows Curse and Fury/Wrath.

I can live with the fact that, when built right, Sorcs have top-tier burst, range, healing, and mobility, but I feel very strongly that their mitigation should be more vulnerable to counter than it is.

Lich isn't on the same playing field with those other sets you mentioned. Yes, it's weaker over the course of 60s but this is a burst game and that is a burst resource refill. None of those sets can compare to the transient strength that set provides.

Izaki

If Defile applied to shields: Let shields be affected my Major Mending and Vitality and Minor Mending and Vitality? Yeah, NO.

If shields became crittable: Let shields benefit from Impen/Crit Resist Resistances (including Minor and Major Resistance buffs) and shields should be able to crit themselves (you cast a shield and it crits, making it *insert crit modifier* times bigger).

In both of these cases shields would become at least 4 times as strong as they are now. And they are pretty balanced now. The only class that can shield stack is Sorc. I think a better way to remove that is introducing Minor and Major shield buffs, with Healing Ward, Barrier and Ferous Leap being their own respective categories. Hardened and Harness are both Major Shields. Igneous shield, Sun shield, Bone shield, etc. are Minor Shields. At this point, the shield strenth for both Harness and Hardened should be increased. Then Sorc might actually get some interesting defensive mechanics aside from brainless shieldstacking.

Izaki

Vosital wrote: »

This would work. Any nerf to the monstrosity that is Sorc right now would is a good thing.

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

If Defile applied to shields: Let shields be affected my Major Mending and Vitality and Minor Mending and Vitality? Yeah, NO.

If shields became crittable: Let shields benefit from Impen/Crit Resist Resistances (including Minor and Major Resistance buffs) and shields should be able to crit themselves (you cast a shield and it crits, making it *insert crit modifier* times bigger).

In both of these cases shields would become at least 4 times as strong as they are now. And they are pretty balanced now. The only class that can shield stack is Sorc. I think a better way to remove that is introducing Minor and Major shield buffs, with Healing Ward, Barrier and Ferous Leap being their own respective categories. Hardened and Harness are both Major Shields. Igneous shield, Sun shield, Bone shield, etc. are Minor Shields. At this point, the shield strenth for both Harness and Hardened should be increased. Then Sorc might actually get some interesting defensive mechanics aside from brainless shieldstacking.

Sure about that? I don't think that you thought it through. Just like most people who say that Sorcs are OP without bringing any solid arguments or evidence. Also you clearly haven't been to the PTS. Go on there and make a Sorc. Do the meta build. See how long you'll last until you get rekt by your magicka bar. Then compare it to the live server. Its a night and day difference. Then do the same thing for Stam Sorc. You aren't going to be able to rely solely on Dark Deal for sustain at all. But if you had gone on PTS and actually tested this stuff before posting such ridiculous and over-exaggerated comments, you'd know it, wouldn't you. But you don't.

Without Pirate Skeleton a Sorc is already very very mortal. With it however... Takes more than 1 person to kill them, lets put it that way. But Pirate Skeleton is used with similar efficiency on other non-Sorc builds too.

Solariken

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

If Defile applied to shields: Let shields be affected my Major Mending and Vitality and Minor Mending and Vitality? Yeah, NO.

If shields became crittable: Let shields benefit from Impen/Crit Resist Resistances (including Minor and Major Resistance buffs) and shields should be able to crit themselves (you cast a shield and it crits, making it *insert crit modifier* times bigger).

In both of these cases shields would become at least 4 times as strong as they are now. And they are pretty balanced now. The only class that can shield stack is Sorc. I think a better way to remove that is introducing Minor and Major shield buffs, with Healing Ward, Barrier and Ferous Leap being their own respective categories. Hardened and Harness are both Major Shields. Igneous shield, Sun shield, Bone shield, etc. are Minor Shields. At this point, the shield strenth for both Harness and Hardened should be increased. Then Sorc might actually get some interesting defensive mechanics aside from brainless shieldstacking.

@IzakiBrotherSs Why should we add 4 new buffs to shields because we add 2 potential new debuffs? They can already get Major/Minor Protection but don't suffer ANY debuffs. Adding Defiles would be the balance stroke.

And for the record I find sorcs' other defensive mechanics pretty interesting - they have the best mobility and area-of-denial skills in game IMO.

Edit: I think shields probably suffer Minor Vulnerability though I haven't tested. Still, Major Vulnerability isn't even in game.

NightbladeMechanics

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Shields aren't heals. Keep them functionally different.

Also a sorc without Pirate is entirely mortal already.

Are they really that different though @NightbladeMechanics? That's a hard line to draw especially since the heal from Healing Ward is a direct function of the shield value. They are also like heals in that they essentially create a secondary pool of health to pre-empt damage. It's like inverse healing. But anyway, you still have to admit it's one of the few mechanics without any true counter.

Yes, they are different. Yes, there are counters.

Shields are like heals in that they take damage for you, but they are not heals in that they cannot take critical damage, do not have resistances, can exceed your max health amount, cannot be defiled, and will not keep you from dying should your health reach zero underneath them from, say, Shieldbreaker.

Shields are exactly that -- barriers, obstacles, walls. They are between you and your opponent, but they are not you.

Healing ward is but one of many shields in the game. It applies a simultaneous heal and shield which both scale on your target's missing health, but the two are distinct mechanics.

The counters to shields are dots, timed burst, and strained sustain. Dots chew through them, timed burst pops the person under them, and shields are all some of the most expensive skills in the game to cast frequently.

Are you frustrated in part because Pirate Skeleton and CP defend against dots and timed burst and we have acquired so much sustain over the last several patches that we can spam shields with impunity? Just wait until next patch. Sorcs have to be waaaay more careful with shield casts on PTS, and CP mitigation is being nerfed.

I've been doing a lot of BG's and duels on PTS - sorc sustain appears largely unaffected and without pointed changes, decent Sorcs will come through largely unscathed. Have you ever been to Azura's Star? Decent Sorcs have shields for days there too.

You say that shields are not "you" but with regard to how the game treats them mechanically, they are more "you" than not. If I set you on fire and then you shield, the shield will eat the DOT and your actual hp will not be touched (bleeds are the only exception but we don't have access to enough bleed effects IMO).

Timed burst works great against bad Sorcs, but decent Sorcs don't drop shields and no matter how you time it there will be a portion of your damage lost to the shield.

Again it's NOT a sorc nerf I'm gunning for. I want a true, available counter specifically to shields. Let's also nerf Lich while we're at it, make it just a flat regen boost that is always active while you are below the magicka % threshold. This would make it only active if you actually have the 5-pc bonus equipped - no more of these bar swap for the buff shenanigans.

Have you played as a magicka sorc on pts? Are your experiences firsthand accounts, or simply impressions having fought against them with your preceding bias? Did you ask how they've adapted their builds or how their sustain fared in the fights?

Decent players of any class will adapt and move on next patch.

I play on Azura's a lot, more on my sorc than on my nb. My shields take noticeably more damage due to the loss of Hardy and Elemental Defender in addition to shrinking due to Bastion. My sustain is also noticeably more limited even after switching to a higher sustain build. I have to be way more careful when I cast shields there.

Your fire dot analogy illustrates a shield protecting someone from damage. Ok, that's their job. Of course my shields are more "me" than not. They're my shields. They certainly won't protect you from damage. But at the same time, my shields do not represent my life. I can still die to damage that bypasses the shields as if they don't exist.

I time burst under top sorcs' shields all the time. You have to play mind games with them. You say part of your damage will be absorbed by a shield like it's a bad thing, but leaving a partial shield up and baiting the sorc to go offensive, thinking he's safe, is one tactic for killing him. Also did you know that the game records critical strikes against shields, and any damage from a crit which overflows a shield will apply critical damage to the health bar and not be mitigated by resistances?

Lich is about to come into a meta just like spellweave and draugr are going out. Should we have nerfed those sets two patches ago because building damage was favorable? Lich 5pc alone equates to 344 base magicka regen normalized for the cooldown. Amber Plasm grants 300 magicka and stam regen. If you cast an ability every global cooldown with an average cost of 2500 magicka, Seducer 5pc alone grants 400 effective base regen. Each of those sets mathematically outperforms Lich. Therefore, if you nerf Lich numerically, they must be nerfed as well. Or, if you make it so you must have the Lich 5pc bonus in order to receive its effect, it must be buffed to compete. Also keep in mind that Seducer 5pc is unaffected by this new regen siphoning CP star. Should we make that CP star increase ability costs too, so that it interacts with all sets evenly? I mean at that point we're basically making poisons into passive effects.

Do you see the slippery slope of balance now?

Edit: last thing, don't mess with bar swap activated sets. Those sets drastically increase build diversity in the game and make competitive builds attainable for people who can't get vma/master weapons. The functionality is necessary. This edit is not commentary on any one set's state of balance.

Mostly fighting against Sorcs. I'm​ not a great mSorc PvPer nor do I personally like the playsyle required to be successful as a magsorc in PvP so mine mostly rots and I just sit back and get salty about the fact that nearly every recap in Cyrodiil shows Curse and Fury/Wrath.

I can live with the fact that, when built right, Sorcs have top-tier burst, range, healing, and mobility, but I feel very strongly that their mitigation should be more vulnerable to counter than it is.

Lich isn't on the same playing field with those other sets you mentioned. Yes, it's weaker over the course of 60s but this is a burst game and that is a burst resource refill. None of those sets can compare to the transient strength that set provides.

You play stamplar, right? If you cite curse and fury being on every death recap, then perhaps your frustration is rooted in the increase of undodgeable/unblockable damage in the game these days. Sorcs sure have a lot of that, and their attacks layer into 1-2 global cooldowns.

Eh, at this point your middle paragraph is you locking horns. I think without Pirate and with some CP and sustain nerfs, sorcs will be plenty vulnerable. You seem fixed in your opinion.

Burst resource refill because this is a burst game...that is not how this works. This is a burst damage game. The same does not apply to sustain. Think of the utility of what you just said. Or consider this.. If a player does not expect the fight to last longer than 60 seconds, why would he invest in a sustain set at all? No, he'd go straight damage, forgoing sustain for burst damage to end the fight quickly. So the mere act of wearing Lich or any other sustain set suggests that the player fully expects the fight to last long enough for him to run out of resources -- which takes a minute or two on its own -- and for him to need to regain those resources back. No, if a player is wearing any sustain set at all, he's preparing for an extended engagement past what his full resource pool would allow. Lich isn't the highest sustain set out there, but it is favored because it functions as a 4pc set if you use the back bar resto staff.

The relative values of all sustain sources can reliably be compared by normalizing them for durations, cooldowns, average ability costs, rng procs, etc etc. Damage can't be compared in this way.

Another random thought, if people really valued burst sustain sources, then Warlock magicka DK might still be a thing.

Izaki

Solariken wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

If Defile applied to shields: Let shields be affected my Major Mending and Vitality and Minor Mending and Vitality? Yeah, NO.

If shields became crittable: Let shields benefit from Impen/Crit Resist Resistances (including Minor and Major Resistance buffs) and shields should be able to crit themselves (you cast a shield and it crits, making it *insert crit modifier* times bigger).

In both of these cases shields would become at least 4 times as strong as they are now. And they are pretty balanced now. The only class that can shield stack is Sorc. I think a better way to remove that is introducing Minor and Major shield buffs, with Healing Ward, Barrier and Ferous Leap being their own respective categories. Hardened and Harness are both Major Shields. Igneous shield, Sun shield, Bone shield, etc. are Minor Shields. At this point, the shield strenth for both Harness and Hardened should be increased. Then Sorc might actually get some interesting defensive mechanics aside from brainless shieldstacking.

@IzakiBrotherSs Why should we add 4 new buffs to shields because we add 2 potential new debuffs? They can already get Major/Minor Protection but don't suffer ANY debuffs. Adding Defiles would be the balance stroke.

And for the record I find sorcs' other defensive mechanics pretty interesting - they have the best mobility and area-of-denial skills in game IMO.

Because that is what balance is. You always have buffs and debuffs countering each other. When one applies, the other has to also apply. Otherwise there's no balance.

Defile doesn't counter Protection. Vulnerability does. Guess what? Vulnerability can be applied to shields. So the shield does suffer from the counter of Protection, which is a debuff.

Shields by themselves have 2 very important things:
1. They are immune to critical hits.
2. They don't have any resistances.
You hit for your full tooltip value (divided by 2 obviously). When you look at the tooltips of skills and at the tooltips of skills, you'll realise that your average "nuke" skill (C-Frags, Dizzy Swing, etc.) does almost as much damage as what a single shield of the "meta" Sorc can take. So my Empowered C-Frags tooltip is at 21k. Means I'll hit 10.5k against a shield. 10k is the size of my Harness. See it is fairly balanced at the moment.

Remember, next patch, shields will all be weaker due to Hardy, Elemental Defender and Bastion all being reduced AND the scaling of those stars being modified as well. Players will be doing more damage due to the new CP Star Master-At-Arms. So shields are indirectly getting weaker. And its not like Sorcs benefitted from any buffs or nerfs since those in Dark Brotherhood, aside from pet changes, Curse becoming unblockable (again) and the introduction of Haunting Curse. The only things that make Sorcs stronger were indirect buffs. See the pattern? Sorcs were indirectly buffed and are indirectly getting nerfed. (I still think a change in functionality to Dark Deal should be introduced, as a side note)

Food for thought on shields vs mitigation: The Shattering Blows CP Star increases that value by a % which scales fairly well, compared to Spell Erosion or Piercing CP Stars (which scale terribly). It is therefore possible to completely remove the impact of Bastion, something that is impossible to do to a build stacking resistances (because even if you're over the resistance cap, you still have those resistances, meaning you counter other players' penetration while staying at max resistances). Just food for thought, not implying that maxing out Shattering Blows is the way to go.

NightbladeMechanics

Solariken wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

If Defile applied to shields: Let shields be affected my Major Mending and Vitality and Minor Mending and Vitality? Yeah, NO.

If shields became crittable: Let shields benefit from Impen/Crit Resist Resistances (including Minor and Major Resistance buffs) and shields should be able to crit themselves (you cast a shield and it crits, making it *insert crit modifier* times bigger).

In both of these cases shields would become at least 4 times as strong as they are now. And they are pretty balanced now. The only class that can shield stack is Sorc. I think a better way to remove that is introducing Minor and Major shield buffs, with Healing Ward, Barrier and Ferous Leap being their own respective categories. Hardened and Harness are both Major Shields. Igneous shield, Sun shield, Bone shield, etc. are Minor Shields. At this point, the shield strenth for both Harness and Hardened should be increased. Then Sorc might actually get some interesting defensive mechanics aside from brainless shieldstacking.

@IzakiBrotherSs Why should we add 4 new buffs to shields because we add 2 potential new debuffs? They can already get Major/Minor Protection but don't suffer ANY debuffs. Adding Defiles would be the balance stroke.

And for the record I find sorcs' other defensive mechanics pretty interesting - they have the best mobility and area-of-denial skills in game IMO.

Edit: I think shields probably suffer Minor Vulnerability though I haven't tested. Still, Major Vulnerability isn't even in game.

The do suffer minor vulnerability. Vulnerability is the counter to protection, not defile.

I still hold that Pirate Skeleton was an attempt at clever design that went awry, shouldn't have been implemented in its current state, and makes more classes and builds op than just magicka sorc.

Solariken

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Shields aren't heals. Keep them functionally different.

Also a sorc without Pirate is entirely mortal already.

Are they really that different though @NightbladeMechanics? That's a hard line to draw especially since the heal from Healing Ward is a direct function of the shield value. They are also like heals in that they essentially create a secondary pool of health to pre-empt damage. It's like inverse healing. But anyway, you still have to admit it's one of the few mechanics without any true counter.

Yes, they are different. Yes, there are counters.

Shields are like heals in that they take damage for you, but they are not heals in that they cannot take critical damage, do not have resistances, can exceed your max health amount, cannot be defiled, and will not keep you from dying should your health reach zero underneath them from, say, Shieldbreaker.

Shields are exactly that -- barriers, obstacles, walls. They are between you and your opponent, but they are not you.

Healing ward is but one of many shields in the game. It applies a simultaneous heal and shield which both scale on your target's missing health, but the two are distinct mechanics.

The counters to shields are dots, timed burst, and strained sustain. Dots chew through them, timed burst pops the person under them, and shields are all some of the most expensive skills in the game to cast frequently.

Are you frustrated in part because Pirate Skeleton and CP defend against dots and timed burst and we have acquired so much sustain over the last several patches that we can spam shields with impunity? Just wait until next patch. Sorcs have to be waaaay more careful with shield casts on PTS, and CP mitigation is being nerfed.

I've been doing a lot of BG's and duels on PTS - sorc sustain appears largely unaffected and without pointed changes, decent Sorcs will come through largely unscathed. Have you ever been to Azura's Star? Decent Sorcs have shields for days there too.

You say that shields are not "you" but with regard to how the game treats them mechanically, they are more "you" than not. If I set you on fire and then you shield, the shield will eat the DOT and your actual hp will not be touched (bleeds are the only exception but we don't have access to enough bleed effects IMO).

Timed burst works great against bad Sorcs, but decent Sorcs don't drop shields and no matter how you time it there will be a portion of your damage lost to the shield.

Again it's NOT a sorc nerf I'm gunning for. I want a true, available counter specifically to shields. Let's also nerf Lich while we're at it, make it just a flat regen boost that is always active while you are below the magicka % threshold. This would make it only active if you actually have the 5-pc bonus equipped - no more of these bar swap for the buff shenanigans.

Have you played as a magicka sorc on pts? Are your experiences firsthand accounts, or simply impressions having fought against them with your preceding bias? Did you ask how they've adapted their builds or how their sustain fared in the fights?

Decent players of any class will adapt and move on next patch.

I play on Azura's a lot, more on my sorc than on my nb. My shields take noticeably more damage due to the loss of Hardy and Elemental Defender in addition to shrinking due to Bastion. My sustain is also noticeably more limited even after switching to a higher sustain build. I have to be way more careful when I cast shields there.

Your fire dot analogy illustrates a shield protecting someone from damage. Ok, that's their job. Of course my shields are more "me" than not. They're my shields. They certainly won't protect you from damage. But at the same time, my shields do not represent my life. I can still die to damage that bypasses the shields as if they don't exist.

I time burst under top sorcs' shields all the time. You have to play mind games with them. You say part of your damage will be absorbed by a shield like it's a bad thing, but leaving a partial shield up and baiting the sorc to go offensive, thinking he's safe, is one tactic for killing him. Also did you know that the game records critical strikes against shields, and any damage from a crit which overflows a shield will apply critical damage to the health bar and not be mitigated by resistances?

Lich is about to come into a meta just like spellweave and draugr are going out. Should we have nerfed those sets two patches ago because building damage was favorable? Lich 5pc alone equates to 344 base magicka regen normalized for the cooldown. Amber Plasm grants 300 magicka and stam regen. If you cast an ability every global cooldown with an average cost of 2500 magicka, Seducer 5pc alone grants 400 effective base regen. Each of those sets mathematically outperforms Lich. Therefore, if you nerf Lich numerically, they must be nerfed as well. Or, if you make it so you must have the Lich 5pc bonus in order to receive its effect, it must be buffed to compete. Also keep in mind that Seducer 5pc is unaffected by this new regen siphoning CP star. Should we make that CP star increase ability costs too, so that it interacts with all sets evenly? I mean at that point we're basically making poisons into passive effects.

Do you see the slippery slope of balance now?

Edit: last thing, don't mess with bar swap activated sets. Those sets drastically increase build diversity in the game and make competitive builds attainable for people who can't get vma/master weapons. The functionality is necessary. This edit is not commentary on any one set's state of balance.

Mostly fighting against Sorcs. I'm​ not a great mSorc PvPer nor do I personally like the playsyle required to be successful as a magsorc in PvP so mine mostly rots and I just sit back and get salty about the fact that nearly every recap in Cyrodiil shows Curse and Fury/Wrath.

I can live with the fact that, when built right, Sorcs have top-tier burst, range, healing, and mobility, but I feel very strongly that their mitigation should be more vulnerable to counter than it is.

Lich isn't on the same playing field with those other sets you mentioned. Yes, it's weaker over the course of 60s but this is a burst game and that is a burst resource refill. None of those sets can compare to the transient strength that set provides.

You play stamplar, right? If you cite curse and fury being on every death recap, then perhaps your frustration is rooted in the increase of undodgeable/unblockable damage in the game these days. Sorcs sure have a lot of that, and their attacks layer into 1-2 global cooldowns.

Eh, at this point your middle paragraph is you locking horns. I think without Pirate and with some CP and sustain nerfs, sorcs will be plenty vulnerable. You seem fixed in your opinion.

Burst resource refill because this is a burst game...that is not how this works. This is a burst damage game. The same does not apply to sustain. Think of the utility of what you just said. Or consider this.. If a player does not expect the fight to last longer than 60 seconds, why would he invest in a sustain set at all? No, he'd go straight damage, forgoing sustain for burst damage to end the fight quickly. So the mere act of wearing Lich or any other sustain set suggests that the player fully expects the fight to last long enough for him to run out of resources -- which takes a minute or two on its own -- and for him to need to regain those resources back. No, if a player is wearing any sustain set at all, he's preparing for an extended engagement past what his full resource pool would allow. Lich isn't the highest sustain set out there, but it is favored because it functions as a 4pc set if you use the back bar resto staff.

The relative values of all sustain sources can reliably be compared by normalizing them for durations, cooldowns, average ability costs, rng procs, etc etc. Damage can't be compared in this way.

Another random thought, if people really valued burst sustain sources, then Warlock magicka DK might still be a thing.

There is a huge difference in the practical application of Lich versus other sustain options. In a normal PvP skirmish you can definitely run a Seducer/Amber/Alteration/Warlock user out of magicka. A Lich user you cannot unless the fight lasts for 10 minutes and the wearer is spamming skills the whole time which is not going to happen. Most PvP fights are over within a minute and you have a ton of non-combat or repositioning time where you aren't spamming skills at all.

Also don't forget Lich gets a massive boost from all of your +X% recovery passives, much more synergy with those passives than any other sustain set.

Izaki

Also, forgot to mention, you might say that Vulnerability is a very rare buff, but so is Protection. I can count on 1 hand the number of abilities that grant Minor Protection, none of which are usable by a Sorc (unless they want to spend half of their stamina bar on Cercle of Protection). I can count even less sources of Major Protection in this game, only 1 being accessible to the Sorc and that is Pirate Skeleton.

At this point, I think its time to stop lying to ourselves and recognize that neither shields, nor Sorcs are the real issue. The real issue is Pirate Skeleton. It has become an extremely widespread set (on all classes I might add) and its power is especially evident on a Sorc.

Solariken

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

If Defile applied to shields: Let shields be affected my Major Mending and Vitality and Minor Mending and Vitality? Yeah, NO.

If shields became crittable: Let shields benefit from Impen/Crit Resist Resistances (including Minor and Major Resistance buffs) and shields should be able to crit themselves (you cast a shield and it crits, making it *insert crit modifier* times bigger).

In both of these cases shields would become at least 4 times as strong as they are now. And they are pretty balanced now. The only class that can shield stack is Sorc. I think a better way to remove that is introducing Minor and Major shield buffs, with Healing Ward, Barrier and Ferous Leap being their own respective categories. Hardened and Harness are both Major Shields. Igneous shield, Sun shield, Bone shield, etc. are Minor Shields. At this point, the shield strenth for both Harness and Hardened should be increased. Then Sorc might actually get some interesting defensive mechanics aside from brainless shieldstacking.

@IzakiBrotherSs Why should we add 4 new buffs to shields because we add 2 potential new debuffs? They can already get Major/Minor Protection but don't suffer ANY debuffs. Adding Defiles would be the balance stroke.

And for the record I find sorcs' other defensive mechanics pretty interesting - they have the best mobility and area-of-denial skills in game IMO.

Because that is what balance is. You always have buffs and debuffs countering each other. When one applies, the other has to also apply. Otherwise there's no balance.

Defile doesn't counter Protection. Vulnerability does. Guess what? Vulnerability can be applied to shields. So the shield does suffer from the counter of Protection, which is a debuff.

Shields by themselves have 2 very important things:
1. They are immune to critical hits.
2. They don't have any resistances.
You hit for your full tooltip value (divided by 2 obviously). When you look at the tooltips of skills and at the tooltips of skills, you'll realise that your average "nuke" skill (C-Frags, Dizzy Swing, etc.) does almost as much damage as what a single shield of the "meta" Sorc can take. So my Empowered C-Frags tooltip is at 21k. Means I'll hit 10.5k against a shield. 10k is the size of my Harness. See it is fairly balanced at the moment.

Remember, next patch, shields will all be weaker due to Hardy, Elemental Defender and Bastion all being reduced AND the scaling of those stars being modified as well. Players will be doing more damage due to the new CP Star Master-At-Arms. So shields are indirectly getting weaker. And its not like Sorcs benefitted from any buffs or nerfs since those in Dark Brotherhood, aside from pet changes, Curse becoming unblockable (again) and the introduction of Haunting Curse. The only things that make Sorcs stronger were indirect buffs. See the pattern? Sorcs were indirectly buffed and are indirectly getting nerfed. (I still think a change in functionality to Dark Deal should be introduced, as a side note)

Food for thought on shields vs mitigation: The Shattering Blows CP Star increases that value by a % which scales fairly well, compared to Spell Erosion or Piercing CP Stars (which scale terribly). It is therefore possible to completely remove the impact of Bastion, something that is impossible to do to a build stacking resistances (because even if you're over the resistance cap, you still have those resistances, meaning you counter other players' penetration while staying at max resistances). Just food for thought, not implying that maxing out Shattering Blows is the way to go.

The interesting thing is that with the CP changes on PTS I have noticed a lower TTK against almost everyone, but not Sorcs. It could be a matter of finding a better offensive CP allocation, but we'll see.

Something else people don't realize is that Bastion is not balanced 1:1 by Shattering Blows when you consider that SB gives a flat damage bonus when hitting a shield but Bastion applies its % bonus to ALL your shields. So for example Sorcs get at least double the benefit from Bastion that attackers get from SB.

Izaki

Solariken wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

If Defile applied to shields: Let shields be affected my Major Mending and Vitality and Minor Mending and Vitality? Yeah, NO.

If shields became crittable: Let shields benefit from Impen/Crit Resist Resistances (including Minor and Major Resistance buffs) and shields should be able to crit themselves (you cast a shield and it crits, making it *insert crit modifier* times bigger).

In both of these cases shields would become at least 4 times as strong as they are now. And they are pretty balanced now. The only class that can shield stack is Sorc. I think a better way to remove that is introducing Minor and Major shield buffs, with Healing Ward, Barrier and Ferous Leap being their own respective categories. Hardened and Harness are both Major Shields. Igneous shield, Sun shield, Bone shield, etc. are Minor Shields. At this point, the shield strenth for both Harness and Hardened should be increased. Then Sorc might actually get some interesting defensive mechanics aside from brainless shieldstacking.

@IzakiBrotherSs Why should we add 4 new buffs to shields because we add 2 potential new debuffs? They can already get Major/Minor Protection but don't suffer ANY debuffs. Adding Defiles would be the balance stroke.

And for the record I find sorcs' other defensive mechanics pretty interesting - they have the best mobility and area-of-denial skills in game IMO.

Because that is what balance is. You always have buffs and debuffs countering each other. When one applies, the other has to also apply. Otherwise there's no balance.

Defile doesn't counter Protection. Vulnerability does. Guess what? Vulnerability can be applied to shields. So the shield does suffer from the counter of Protection, which is a debuff.

Shields by themselves have 2 very important things:
1. They are immune to critical hits.
2. They don't have any resistances.
You hit for your full tooltip value (divided by 2 obviously). When you look at the tooltips of skills and at the tooltips of skills, you'll realise that your average "nuke" skill (C-Frags, Dizzy Swing, etc.) does almost as much damage as what a single shield of the "meta" Sorc can take. So my Empowered C-Frags tooltip is at 21k. Means I'll hit 10.5k against a shield. 10k is the size of my Harness. See it is fairly balanced at the moment.

Remember, next patch, shields will all be weaker due to Hardy, Elemental Defender and Bastion all being reduced AND the scaling of those stars being modified as well. Players will be doing more damage due to the new CP Star Master-At-Arms. So shields are indirectly getting weaker. And its not like Sorcs benefitted from any buffs or nerfs since those in Dark Brotherhood, aside from pet changes, Curse becoming unblockable (again) and the introduction of Haunting Curse. The only things that make Sorcs stronger were indirect buffs. See the pattern? Sorcs were indirectly buffed and are indirectly getting nerfed. (I still think a change in functionality to Dark Deal should be introduced, as a side note)

Food for thought on shields vs mitigation: The Shattering Blows CP Star increases that value by a % which scales fairly well, compared to Spell Erosion or Piercing CP Stars (which scale terribly). It is therefore possible to completely remove the impact of Bastion, something that is impossible to do to a build stacking resistances (because even if you're over the resistance cap, you still have those resistances, meaning you counter other players' penetration while staying at max resistances). Just food for thought, not implying that maxing out Shattering Blows is the way to go.

The interesting thing is that with the CP changes on PTS I have noticed a lower TTK against almost everyone, but not Sorcs. It could be a matter of finding a better offensive CP allocation, but we'll see.

Something else people don't realize is that Bastion is not balanced 1:1 by Shattering Blows when you consider that SB gives a flat damage bonus when hitting a shield but Bastion applies its % bonus to ALL your shields. So for example Sorcs get at least double the benefit from Bastion that attackers get from SB.

Yeah, please post that, I would like to see how you managed that, it seems pretty unlikely that that can happen.

I don't see how your last paragraph is relevant to what I was saying. Just like a Sorc gets 25% extra defense overall, you get 25% more damage overall (DoTs, Weapon Attacks, etc). Bastion isn't more efficient just because there are 2 shields, the difference in values is still 25%, no matter how many shields there are. Attackers also get a 25% damage boost to ALL their attacks on shields (you can have as many attacks per second as you want, depending on the amount of DoTs along with the usual 2 attacks per second from Weapon attacks and Skills weaving) Your statement is false.

NightbladeMechanics

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Shields aren't heals. Keep them functionally different.

Also a sorc without Pirate is entirely mortal already.

Are they really that different though @NightbladeMechanics? That's a hard line to draw especially since the heal from Healing Ward is a direct function of the shield value. They are also like heals in that they essentially create a secondary pool of health to pre-empt damage. It's like inverse healing. But anyway, you still have to admit it's one of the few mechanics without any true counter.

Yes, they are different. Yes, there are counters.

Shields are like heals in that they take damage for you, but they are not heals in that they cannot take critical damage, do not have resistances, can exceed your max health amount, cannot be defiled, and will not keep you from dying should your health reach zero underneath them from, say, Shieldbreaker.

Shields are exactly that -- barriers, obstacles, walls. They are between you and your opponent, but they are not you.

Healing ward is but one of many shields in the game. It applies a simultaneous heal and shield which both scale on your target's missing health, but the two are distinct mechanics.

The counters to shields are dots, timed burst, and strained sustain. Dots chew through them, timed burst pops the person under them, and shields are all some of the most expensive skills in the game to cast frequently.

Are you frustrated in part because Pirate Skeleton and CP defend against dots and timed burst and we have acquired so much sustain over the last several patches that we can spam shields with impunity? Just wait until next patch. Sorcs have to be waaaay more careful with shield casts on PTS, and CP mitigation is being nerfed.

I've been doing a lot of BG's and duels on PTS - sorc sustain appears largely unaffected and without pointed changes, decent Sorcs will come through largely unscathed. Have you ever been to Azura's Star? Decent Sorcs have shields for days there too.

You say that shields are not "you" but with regard to how the game treats them mechanically, they are more "you" than not. If I set you on fire and then you shield, the shield will eat the DOT and your actual hp will not be touched (bleeds are the only exception but we don't have access to enough bleed effects IMO).

Timed burst works great against bad Sorcs, but decent Sorcs don't drop shields and no matter how you time it there will be a portion of your damage lost to the shield.

Again it's NOT a sorc nerf I'm gunning for. I want a true, available counter specifically to shields. Let's also nerf Lich while we're at it, make it just a flat regen boost that is always active while you are below the magicka % threshold. This would make it only active if you actually have the 5-pc bonus equipped - no more of these bar swap for the buff shenanigans.

Have you played as a magicka sorc on pts? Are your experiences firsthand accounts, or simply impressions having fought against them with your preceding bias? Did you ask how they've adapted their builds or how their sustain fared in the fights?

Decent players of any class will adapt and move on next patch.

I play on Azura's a lot, more on my sorc than on my nb. My shields take noticeably more damage due to the loss of Hardy and Elemental Defender in addition to shrinking due to Bastion. My sustain is also noticeably more limited even after switching to a higher sustain build. I have to be way more careful when I cast shields there.

Your fire dot analogy illustrates a shield protecting someone from damage. Ok, that's their job. Of course my shields are more "me" than not. They're my shields. They certainly won't protect you from damage. But at the same time, my shields do not represent my life. I can still die to damage that bypasses the shields as if they don't exist.

I time burst under top sorcs' shields all the time. You have to play mind games with them. You say part of your damage will be absorbed by a shield like it's a bad thing, but leaving a partial shield up and baiting the sorc to go offensive, thinking he's safe, is one tactic for killing him. Also did you know that the game records critical strikes against shields, and any damage from a crit which overflows a shield will apply critical damage to the health bar and not be mitigated by resistances?

Lich is about to come into a meta just like spellweave and draugr are going out. Should we have nerfed those sets two patches ago because building damage was favorable? Lich 5pc alone equates to 344 base magicka regen normalized for the cooldown. Amber Plasm grants 300 magicka and stam regen. If you cast an ability every global cooldown with an average cost of 2500 magicka, Seducer 5pc alone grants 400 effective base regen. Each of those sets mathematically outperforms Lich. Therefore, if you nerf Lich numerically, they must be nerfed as well. Or, if you make it so you must have the Lich 5pc bonus in order to receive its effect, it must be buffed to compete. Also keep in mind that Seducer 5pc is unaffected by this new regen siphoning CP star. Should we make that CP star increase ability costs too, so that it interacts with all sets evenly? I mean at that point we're basically making poisons into passive effects.

Do you see the slippery slope of balance now?

Edit: last thing, don't mess with bar swap activated sets. Those sets drastically increase build diversity in the game and make competitive builds attainable for people who can't get vma/master weapons. The functionality is necessary. This edit is not commentary on any one set's state of balance.

Mostly fighting against Sorcs. I'm​ not a great mSorc PvPer nor do I personally like the playsyle required to be successful as a magsorc in PvP so mine mostly rots and I just sit back and get salty about the fact that nearly every recap in Cyrodiil shows Curse and Fury/Wrath.

I can live with the fact that, when built right, Sorcs have top-tier burst, range, healing, and mobility, but I feel very strongly that their mitigation should be more vulnerable to counter than it is.

Lich isn't on the same playing field with those other sets you mentioned. Yes, it's weaker over the course of 60s but this is a burst game and that is a burst resource refill. None of those sets can compare to the transient strength that set provides.

You play stamplar, right? If you cite curse and fury being on every death recap, then perhaps your frustration is rooted in the increase of undodgeable/unblockable damage in the game these days. Sorcs sure have a lot of that, and their attacks layer into 1-2 global cooldowns.

Eh, at this point your middle paragraph is you locking horns. I think without Pirate and with some CP and sustain nerfs, sorcs will be plenty vulnerable. You seem fixed in your opinion.

Burst resource refill because this is a burst game...that is not how this works. This is a burst damage game. The same does not apply to sustain. Think of the utility of what you just said. Or consider this.. If a player does not expect the fight to last longer than 60 seconds, why would he invest in a sustain set at all? No, he'd go straight damage, forgoing sustain for burst damage to end the fight quickly. So the mere act of wearing Lich or any other sustain set suggests that the player fully expects the fight to last long enough for him to run out of resources -- which takes a minute or two on its own -- and for him to need to regain those resources back. No, if a player is wearing any sustain set at all, he's preparing for an extended engagement past what his full resource pool would allow. Lich isn't the highest sustain set out there, but it is favored because it functions as a 4pc set if you use the back bar resto staff.

The relative values of all sustain sources can reliably be compared by normalizing them for durations, cooldowns, average ability costs, rng procs, etc etc. Damage can't be compared in this way.

Another random thought, if people really valued burst sustain sources, then Warlock magicka DK might still be a thing.

There is a huge difference in the practical application of Lich versus other sustain options. In a normal PvP skirmish you can definitely run a Seducer/Amber/Alteration/Warlock user out of magicka. A Lich user you cannot unless the fight lasts for 10 minutes and the wearer is spamming skills the whole time which is not going to happen. Most PvP fights are over within a minute and you have a ton of non-combat or repositioning time where you aren't spamming skills at all.

Also don't forget Lich gets a massive boost from all of your +X% recovery passives, much more synergy with those passives than any other sustain set.

Speaking from personal experience having played Lich, Seducer, and Amber Plasm sorc builds, Seducer is the stronger sustain set and runs out of magicka last, unless the Amber build is using Dark Conversion and is not having its stam pool pressured properly. If you haven't played with the sets, you can't make a claim like that.

And sure, you get a big regen bonus from percentage passives, but keep in mind that the proc must be divided by 3 when comparing to other sets to account for the cooldown.

Also keep in mind that sorc's average ability cost is very high due to shields, mines, and streak -- higher than my 2500 magicka example. I shot low to illustrate that Seducer outperforms Lich on other classes with lower base costs as well.

Overall, Lich is used for convenience, and to save bar space from having to use Dark Conversion. Amber Plasm + Willpower is more damage than Spinner + Lich, but requires Dark Conversion to sustain. Seducer + Willpower is more sustain than Lich, but offers less damage than front bar damage set options. In my opinion, the only convincing item sets to pair with Lich are bsw and Scathing. Those are powerful combinations, but no they won't sustain forever. Lol

Solariken

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Shields aren't heals. Keep them functionally different.

Also a sorc without Pirate is entirely mortal already.

Are they really that different though @NightbladeMechanics? That's a hard line to draw especially since the heal from Healing Ward is a direct function of the shield value. They are also like heals in that they essentially create a secondary pool of health to pre-empt damage. It's like inverse healing. But anyway, you still have to admit it's one of the few mechanics without any true counter.

Yes, they are different. Yes, there are counters.

Shields are like heals in that they take damage for you, but they are not heals in that they cannot take critical damage, do not have resistances, can exceed your max health amount, cannot be defiled, and will not keep you from dying should your health reach zero underneath them from, say, Shieldbreaker.

Shields are exactly that -- barriers, obstacles, walls. They are between you and your opponent, but they are not you.

Healing ward is but one of many shields in the game. It applies a simultaneous heal and shield which both scale on your target's missing health, but the two are distinct mechanics.

The counters to shields are dots, timed burst, and strained sustain. Dots chew through them, timed burst pops the person under them, and shields are all some of the most expensive skills in the game to cast frequently.

Are you frustrated in part because Pirate Skeleton and CP defend against dots and timed burst and we have acquired so much sustain over the last several patches that we can spam shields with impunity? Just wait until next patch. Sorcs have to be waaaay more careful with shield casts on PTS, and CP mitigation is being nerfed.

I've been doing a lot of BG's and duels on PTS - sorc sustain appears largely unaffected and without pointed changes, decent Sorcs will come through largely unscathed. Have you ever been to Azura's Star? Decent Sorcs have shields for days there too.

You say that shields are not "you" but with regard to how the game treats them mechanically, they are more "you" than not. If I set you on fire and then you shield, the shield will eat the DOT and your actual hp will not be touched (bleeds are the only exception but we don't have access to enough bleed effects IMO).

Timed burst works great against bad Sorcs, but decent Sorcs don't drop shields and no matter how you time it there will be a portion of your damage lost to the shield.

Again it's NOT a sorc nerf I'm gunning for. I want a true, available counter specifically to shields. Let's also nerf Lich while we're at it, make it just a flat regen boost that is always active while you are below the magicka % threshold. This would make it only active if you actually have the 5-pc bonus equipped - no more of these bar swap for the buff shenanigans.

Have you played as a magicka sorc on pts? Are your experiences firsthand accounts, or simply impressions having fought against them with your preceding bias? Did you ask how they've adapted their builds or how their sustain fared in the fights?

Decent players of any class will adapt and move on next patch.

I play on Azura's a lot, more on my sorc than on my nb. My shields take noticeably more damage due to the loss of Hardy and Elemental Defender in addition to shrinking due to Bastion. My sustain is also noticeably more limited even after switching to a higher sustain build. I have to be way more careful when I cast shields there.

Your fire dot analogy illustrates a shield protecting someone from damage. Ok, that's their job. Of course my shields are more "me" than not. They're my shields. They certainly won't protect you from damage. But at the same time, my shields do not represent my life. I can still die to damage that bypasses the shields as if they don't exist.

I time burst under top sorcs' shields all the time. You have to play mind games with them. You say part of your damage will be absorbed by a shield like it's a bad thing, but leaving a partial shield up and baiting the sorc to go offensive, thinking he's safe, is one tactic for killing him. Also did you know that the game records critical strikes against shields, and any damage from a crit which overflows a shield will apply critical damage to the health bar and not be mitigated by resistances?

Lich is about to come into a meta just like spellweave and draugr are going out. Should we have nerfed those sets two patches ago because building damage was favorable? Lich 5pc alone equates to 344 base magicka regen normalized for the cooldown. Amber Plasm grants 300 magicka and stam regen. If you cast an ability every global cooldown with an average cost of 2500 magicka, Seducer 5pc alone grants 400 effective base regen. Each of those sets mathematically outperforms Lich. Therefore, if you nerf Lich numerically, they must be nerfed as well. Or, if you make it so you must have the Lich 5pc bonus in order to receive its effect, it must be buffed to compete. Also keep in mind that Seducer 5pc is unaffected by this new regen siphoning CP star. Should we make that CP star increase ability costs too, so that it interacts with all sets evenly? I mean at that point we're basically making poisons into passive effects.

Do you see the slippery slope of balance now?

Edit: last thing, don't mess with bar swap activated sets. Those sets drastically increase build diversity in the game and make competitive builds attainable for people who can't get vma/master weapons. The functionality is necessary. This edit is not commentary on any one set's state of balance.

Mostly fighting against Sorcs. I'm​ not a great mSorc PvPer nor do I personally like the playsyle required to be successful as a magsorc in PvP so mine mostly rots and I just sit back and get salty about the fact that nearly every recap in Cyrodiil shows Curse and Fury/Wrath.

I can live with the fact that, when built right, Sorcs have top-tier burst, range, healing, and mobility, but I feel very strongly that their mitigation should be more vulnerable to counter than it is.

Lich isn't on the same playing field with those other sets you mentioned. Yes, it's weaker over the course of 60s but this is a burst game and that is a burst resource refill. None of those sets can compare to the transient strength that set provides.

You play stamplar, right? If you cite curse and fury being on every death recap, then perhaps your frustration is rooted in the increase of undodgeable/unblockable damage in the game these days. Sorcs sure have a lot of that, and their attacks layer into 1-2 global cooldowns.

Eh, at this point your middle paragraph is you locking horns. I think without Pirate and with some CP and sustain nerfs, sorcs will be plenty vulnerable. You seem fixed in your opinion.

Burst resource refill because this is a burst game...that is not how this works. This is a burst damage game. The same does not apply to sustain. Think of the utility of what you just said. Or consider this.. If a player does not expect the fight to last longer than 60 seconds, why would he invest in a sustain set at all? No, he'd go straight damage, forgoing sustain for burst damage to end the fight quickly. So the mere act of wearing Lich or any other sustain set suggests that the player fully expects the fight to last long enough for him to run out of resources -- which takes a minute or two on its own -- and for him to need to regain those resources back. No, if a player is wearing any sustain set at all, he's preparing for an extended engagement past what his full resource pool would allow. Lich isn't the highest sustain set out there, but it is favored because it functions as a 4pc set if you use the back bar resto staff.

The relative values of all sustain sources can reliably be compared by normalizing them for durations, cooldowns, average ability costs, rng procs, etc etc. Damage can't be compared in this way.

Another random thought, if people really valued burst sustain sources, then Warlock magicka DK might still be a thing.

There is a huge difference in the practical application of Lich versus other sustain options. In a normal PvP skirmish you can definitely run a Seducer/Amber/Alteration/Warlock user out of magicka. A Lich user you cannot unless the fight lasts for 10 minutes and the wearer is spamming skills the whole time which is not going to happen. Most PvP fights are over within a minute and you have a ton of non-combat or repositioning time where you aren't spamming skills at all.

Also don't forget Lich gets a massive boost from all of your +X% recovery passives, much more synergy with those passives than any other sustain set.

Speaking from personal experience having played Lich, Seducer, and Amber Plasm sorc builds, Seducer is the stronger sustain set and runs out of magicka last, unless the Amber build is using Dark Conversion and is not having its stam pool pressured properly. If you haven't played with the sets, you can't make a claim like that.

And sure, you get a big regen bonus from percentage passives, but keep in mind that the proc must be divided by 3 when comparing to other sets to account for the cooldown.

Also keep in mind that sorc's average ability cost is very high due to shields, mines, and streak -- higher than my 2500 magicka example. I shot low to illustrate that Seducer outperforms Lich on other classes with lower base costs as well.

Overall, Lich is used for convenience, and to save bar space from having to use Dark Conversion. Amber Plasm + Willpower is more damage than Spinner + Lich, but requires Dark Conversion to sustain. Seducer + Willpower is more sustain than Lich, but offers less damage than front bar damage set options. In my opinion, the only convincing item sets to pair with Lich are bsw and Scathing. Those are powerful combinations, but no they won't sustain forever. Lol

Well it sounds like you have more sorc experience than I do and I certainly have not spent time comparing those sets in open world. All I know is that for all the super Sorcs out there, Lich is the one true hotness. I also don't ever remember a time I killed a good sorc because he was out of magicka (or stamina these days) - I kill them only by catching them with their pants down and with and the burst I can muster. I run out of stamina fighting them though because if I don't dodge almost every frag proc I'm dead anyway.

Also fun fact for you guys @NightbladeMechanics and @IzakiBrotherSs, I discovered via some testing tonight that Minor Vulnerability from shock effects will not proc on a shielded target. I assume this is true for all status effects but I didn't have time to test others. Shields OP.