Major/Minor Defile should affect shield strength

Xsorus

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Remove Protection from Shields, that basically the only fix needed

Heal Debuffs would cripple shields, and esp non Pirate Users.

Is minor protection on shields op?

Is Pirate Skeleton balanced on everything except sorcs and other shield-reliant builds?

If the answer to both of these questions is yes, then by all means make protection buffs not apply to shields.

If not, you sir have suggested a bandaid fix.

Minor protection isn't overpowered on shields but it still shouldn't work on shields.

And pirates is fairly balanced until you start paring it with uncritable shields and it's slightly op on a Templar though cause you can purge the debuff but with then loss of major mending it won't matter on Templar anymore...

But yes, it shouldn't work on any shields

Derra

Xvorg wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Shields aren't heals. Keep them functionally different.

Also a sorc without Pirate is entirely mortal already.

Maybe he meant Major Breach

You can have major breach working all you want on my ward. It´s not that is has any resistances to debuff to begin with.

Derra

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Shields aren't heals. Keep them functionally different.

Also a sorc without Pirate is entirely mortal already.

Are they really that different though @NightbladeMechanics? That's a hard line to draw especially since the heal from Healing Ward is a direct function of the shield value. They are also like heals in that they essentially create a secondary pool of health to pre-empt damage. It's like inverse healing. But anyway, you still have to admit it's one of the few mechanics without any true counter.

Yes, they are different. Yes, there are counters.

Shields are like heals in that they take damage for you, but they are not heals in that they cannot take critical damage, do not have resistances, can exceed your max health amount, cannot be defiled, and will not keep you from dying should your health reach zero underneath them from, say, Shieldbreaker.

Shields are exactly that -- barriers, obstacles, walls. They are between you and your opponent, but they are not you.

Healing ward is but one of many shields in the game. It applies a simultaneous heal and shield which both scale on your target's missing health, but the two are distinct mechanics.

The counters to shields are dots, timed burst, and strained sustain. Dots chew through them, timed burst pops the person under them, and shields are all some of the most expensive skills in the game to cast frequently.

Are you frustrated in part because Pirate Skeleton and CP defend against dots and timed burst and we have acquired so much sustain over the last several patches that we can spam shields with impunity? Just wait until next patch. Sorcs have to be waaaay more careful with shield casts on PTS, and CP mitigation is being nerfed.

I've been doing a lot of BG's and duels on PTS - sorc sustain appears largely unaffected and without pointed changes, decent Sorcs will come through largely unscathed. Have you ever been to Azura's Star? Decent Sorcs have shields for days there too.

You say that shields are not "you" but with regard to how the game treats them mechanically, they are more "you" than not. If I set you on fire and then you shield, the shield will eat the DOT and your actual hp will not be touched (bleeds are the only exception but we don't have access to enough bleed effects IMO).

Timed burst works great against bad Sorcs, but decent Sorcs don't drop shields and no matter how you time it there will be a portion of your damage lost to the shield.

Again it's NOT a sorc nerf I'm gunning for. I want a true, available counter specifically to shields. Let's also nerf Lich while we're at it, make it just a flat regen boost that is always active while you are below the magicka % threshold. This would make it only active if you actually have the 5-pc bonus equipped - no more of these bar swap for the buff shenanigans.

Have you played as a magicka sorc on pts? Are your experiences firsthand accounts, or simply impressions having fought against them with your preceding bias? Did you ask how they've adapted their builds or how their sustain fared in the fights?

Decent players of any class will adapt and move on next patch.

I play on Azura's a lot, more on my sorc than on my nb. My shields take noticeably more damage due to the loss of Hardy and Elemental Defender in addition to shrinking due to Bastion. My sustain is also noticeably more limited even after switching to a higher sustain build. I have to be way more careful when I cast shields there.

Your fire dot analogy illustrates a shield protecting someone from damage. Ok, that's their job. Of course my shields are more "me" than not. They're my shields. They certainly won't protect you from damage. But at the same time, my shields do not represent my life. I can still die to damage that bypasses the shields as if they don't exist.

I time burst under top sorcs' shields all the time. You have to play mind games with them. You say part of your damage will be absorbed by a shield like it's a bad thing, but leaving a partial shield up and baiting the sorc to go offensive, thinking he's safe, is one tactic for killing him. Also did you know that the game records critical strikes against shields, and any damage from a crit which overflows a shield will apply critical damage to the health bar and not be mitigated by resistances?

Lich is about to come into a meta just like spellweave and draugr are going out. Should we have nerfed those sets two patches ago because building damage was favorable? Lich 5pc alone equates to 344 base magicka regen normalized for the cooldown. Amber Plasm grants 300 magicka and stam regen. If you cast an ability every global cooldown with an average cost of 2500 magicka, Seducer 5pc alone grants 400 effective base regen. Each of those sets mathematically outperforms Lich. Therefore, if you nerf Lich numerically, they must be nerfed as well. Or, if you make it so you must have the Lich 5pc bonus in order to receive its effect, it must be buffed to compete. Also keep in mind that Seducer 5pc is unaffected by this new regen siphoning CP star. Should we make that CP star increase ability costs too, so that it interacts with all sets evenly? I mean at that point we're basically making poisons into passive effects.

Do you see the slippery slope of balance now?

Edit: last thing, don't mess with bar swap activated sets. Those sets drastically increase build diversity in the game and make competitive builds attainable for people who can't get vma/master weapons. The functionality is necessary. This edit is not commentary on any one set's state of balance.

Mostly fighting against Sorcs. I'm​ not a great mSorc PvPer nor do I personally like the playsyle required to be successful as a magsorc in PvP so mine mostly rots and I just sit back and get salty about the fact that nearly every recap in Cyrodiil shows Curse and Fury/Wrath.

I can live with the fact that, when built right, Sorcs have top-tier burst, range, healing, and mobility, but I feel very strongly that their mitigation should be more vulnerable to counter than it is.

Lich isn't on the same playing field with those other sets you mentioned. Yes, it's weaker over the course of 60s but this is a burst game and that is a burst resource refill. None of those sets can compare to the transient strength that set provides.

You play stamplar, right? If you cite curse and fury being on every death recap, then perhaps your frustration is rooted in the increase of undodgeable/unblockable damage in the game these days. Sorcs sure have a lot of that, and their attacks layer into 1-2 global cooldowns.

Eh, at this point your middle paragraph is you locking horns. I think without Pirate and with some CP and sustain nerfs, sorcs will be plenty vulnerable. You seem fixed in your opinion.

Burst resource refill because this is a burst game...that is not how this works. This is a burst damage game. The same does not apply to sustain. Think of the utility of what you just said. Or consider this.. If a player does not expect the fight to last longer than 60 seconds, why would he invest in a sustain set at all? No, he'd go straight damage, forgoing sustain for burst damage to end the fight quickly. So the mere act of wearing Lich or any other sustain set suggests that the player fully expects the fight to last long enough for him to run out of resources -- which takes a minute or two on its own -- and for him to need to regain those resources back. No, if a player is wearing any sustain set at all, he's preparing for an extended engagement past what his full resource pool would allow. Lich isn't the highest sustain set out there, but it is favored because it functions as a 4pc set if you use the back bar resto staff.

The relative values of all sustain sources can reliably be compared by normalizing them for durations, cooldowns, average ability costs, rng procs, etc etc. Damage can't be compared in this way.

Another random thought, if people really valued burst sustain sources, then Warlock magicka DK might still be a thing.

There is a huge difference in the practical application of Lich versus other sustain options. In a normal PvP skirmish you can definitely run a Seducer/Amber/Alteration/Warlock user out of magicka. A Lich user you cannot unless the fight lasts for 10 minutes and the wearer is spamming skills the whole time which is not going to happen. Most PvP fights are over within a minute and you have a ton of non-combat or repositioning time where you aren't spamming skills at all.

Also don't forget Lich gets a massive boost from all of your +X% recovery passives, much more synergy with those passives than any other sustain set.

Speaking from personal experience having played Lich, Seducer, and Amber Plasm sorc builds, Seducer is the stronger sustain set and runs out of magicka last, unless the Amber build is using Dark Conversion and is not having its stam pool pressured properly. If you haven't played with the sets, you can't make a claim like that.

And sure, you get a big regen bonus from percentage passives, but keep in mind that the proc must be divided by 3 when comparing to other sets to account for the cooldown.

Also keep in mind that sorc's average ability cost is very high due to shields, mines, and streak -- higher than my 2500 magicka example. I shot low to illustrate that Seducer outperforms Lich on other classes with lower base costs as well.

Overall, Lich is used for convenience, and to save bar space from having to use Dark Conversion. Amber Plasm + Willpower is more damage than Spinner + Lich, but requires Dark Conversion to sustain. Seducer + Willpower is more sustain than Lich, but offers less damage than front bar damage set options. In my opinion, the only convincing item sets to pair with Lich are bsw and Scathing. Those are powerful combinations, but no they won't sustain forever. Lol

@NightbladeMechanics
Lich provides 344 base regen/min if upgraded gold. One procc without any % modifiers will net you 10320 magica over 20s.
With a 5 light setup 20% and a potion active 30% aswell as 10% from CP this provides 16512 magica per minute.

Going for an average cost of 3500 base per skill you need to cast 59 skills per minute to save the same amount of magica per minute with seducer that one lich procc will provide you.
If you cast any skills cheaper than 3500 base (all your dps skills) it becomes mathematically impossible to break even.

Now if you´re highelf or utilize 6 light it also becomes mathematically impossible for seducer to beat lich sustain wise.

I don´t want to go into the amberplasm vs lich/spinner discussion too much. The dmg difference is imo in favor of spinner/lich while amber is the defensive gear choice. Spinner charged will outdmg amber on anything below 25k resistance. Spinner sharpened will outdamage amber on anything above. Amber does have better sustain but comes at the cost of "wasting" gcds for sustain.
Talk bsw/lich and any amber setup is outgunned.

Derra

Xsorus wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Remove Protection from Shields, that basically the only fix needed

Heal Debuffs would cripple shields, and esp non Pirate Users.

Is minor protection on shields op?

Is Pirate Skeleton balanced on everything except sorcs and other shield-reliant builds?

If the answer to both of these questions is yes, then by all means make protection buffs not apply to shields.

If not, you sir have suggested a bandaid fix.

Minor protection isn't overpowered on shields but it still shouldn't work on shields.

And pirates is fairly balanced until you start paring it with uncritable shields and it's slightly op on a Templar though cause you can purge the debuff but with then loss of major mending it won't matter on Templar anymore...

But yes, it shouldn't work on any shields

I have no idea what you play atm - but on eu there is no difference in classes choosing pirate skeleton. Every one of them is a nuisance to kill. There is no real difference if it´s a DK, NB, sorc or templar - and all of them are wearing it (maybe templars and dks are the worst - because those couple it with mistform usually).

It´s a generally overperforming set for anything that is not using medium armor.