[Suggestion] Thoughts on DK and balance changes (pvp focused)

Ishammael

Heroism should be on Inferno and its morphs.

At any rate, I haven't played in months because of lack of interest. Nothing I have seen in the upcoming patch seems worthwhile.

Basically, what @Joy_Division said: mDK isn't fun anymore.

krathos

Ishammael wrote: »

Heroism should be on Inferno and its morphs.

At any rate, I haven't played in months because of lack of interest. Nothing I have seen in the upcoming patch seems worthwhile.

Basically, what @Joy_Division said: mDK isn't fun anymore.

@Ishammael DK is already starved for bar spots because all of their abilities and passives are so narrowly focused that we have to run multiple skills to get what other classes get in a single skill. Making one of our shittier and lesser used abilities just slightly better wouldn't do us any service.

Drishtan

krathos wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Heroism should be on Inferno and its morphs.

At any rate, I haven't played in months because of lack of interest. Nothing I have seen in the upcoming patch seems worthwhile.

Basically, what @Joy_Division said: mDK isn't fun anymore.

@Ishammael DK is already starved for bar spots because all of their abilities and passives are so narrowly focused that we have to run multiple skills to get what other classes get in a single skill. Making one of our shittier and lesser used abilities just slightly better wouldn't do us any service.

Completely Agree!

Ishammael

krathos wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Heroism should be on Inferno and its morphs.

At any rate, I haven't played in months because of lack of interest. Nothing I have seen in the upcoming patch seems worthwhile.

Basically, what @Joy_Division said: mDK isn't fun anymore.

@Ishammael DK is already starved for bar spots because all of their abilities and passives are so narrowly focused that we have to run multiple skills to get what other classes get in a single skill. Making one of our shittier and lesser used abilities just slightly better wouldn't do us any service.

Fair enough

Some extra thoughts:
1. How many mDKs will run Igneous Shield after the Mending nerf? I know I wouldn't. Especially for Battlegrounds (i.e. no CPs), I only see a shield-stacking mDK as viable. Someone who has run Battlegrounds can fill me in on how this actually plays out. I simply don't see the HA mDK as possible, even running 2x sustain sets.
2. Inferno is actually kinda good -- you can use it to add a little extra burst.
3. By Heroism, I meant Major Heroism.

For those that have run Battlegrounds as mDK, how are you gearing?

D0ntevenL1ft

Drishtan wrote: »

Battle Roar-A Nerf is ok but the max stat cap should be 35k not 28k.

Earthen Heart- Nerf ok but the max stam should be 30k not 19k.

Agreed. Increase caps to 35k for battle roar and 30k even for helping hands. Thats a 1.5k stam return thats nothing with the increase cost of everything but it won't kill the class completely.

Drishtan

/bump

Kilandros

Inferno needs to become an AoE. It's still too unreliable in PvP as a single target that I cant really control.

Durham

Lol Magicka DKs were hit by this nerf but the Stam version got nailed with 3 huge class nerfs and 3 huge universal nerfs and 3 minor nerfs .... 9 total nerfs.... This meta of PVP play is the most hit.... Magicka DKs did not need and nerfs at all it was fine .... Stam DK was already recovering from the last set of nerfs . It's completely broken no reason to run one.... Of the 4 classes it's the weakest class for medium armor twohander/bow .... Nightblades are played differently I do not want to go there.... However it was the strongest of the 5 in heavy armor with a sorc on its heels currently... after the next patch the stam DK has no role ...

Remember a stam DK has:
-Only 2 stam abilities on the class they depend on their passives....
-No escape abilities which is similar to Templar however they do get an aoe cheap purge and snare that helps their mobility somewhat....
-DK stam class damage is dots which is great for sustain DPS but not good for PVP

Vapirko

Any word from ZOS on anything DK related? It seems like its not really a priority.

Dragath

Vapirko wrote: »

Any word from ZOS on anything DK related? It seems like its not really a priority.

we'll have to wait and see.
it's very possible that we won't see feedback related changes before 3.0.3.
so don't give up hope and keep providing feedback.

krathos

@Vapirko we won't hear anything until the next round of patch notes next week. Hopefully they're reading this thread and taking it into consideration. I honestly believe these changes are healthy for the class and game and I think the majority would agree - this might be the few "buff this" threads where other classes aren't swarming in exclaiming how OP the suggestions are . I just don't want to see my favorite class continue to be gutted if it's uniqueness and prowess in pvp.

Weps

Permablocking unkillable One Hand and Shield ulti spamming machines had to go, for the good of the game.
It becomes more challenging for them, it gives more options to all the people.

They took things a little too far with the passives changes.
If they want to keep them, they should at least raise the caps a little, just to stick to what they're trying to accomplish without destroying a class completely.

What I'm really disappointed about is the complete lack of compensation.
They just nerfed everything without thinking about how that will impact their fast paced combat system.

Regen, cost reduction, sustain are out of the window?
Well, I knew that was about to come so I dreamed about an increased efficiency with out DOTs ( another class defining characteristic of the DK) against players and finally an execution move for the Magicka Dk. It's now the worst class sustain-wise in the game, paired only by stamplars and it's a great unbalancing factor the idea that MagDKs still have to rely on unreliable DOTs and highly-complex-to-pull-off-combo-moves like Meteor + Fossilize + Whip.

I hope they will give the DKs more reliable and effective DOTs, a Whip with executing mechanics ( just like Aurig Mireh does when she whips 3 times in a row ) and maybe ( now this is just a wet dream of mine ) the chance to cleanse ourselves from one negative effect, thus keeping the "stand-your-ground" idea of the class untouched without causing its extinction nor turning again into an OP survivor.

Vapirko

krathos wrote: »

@Vapirko we won't hear anything until the next round of patch notes next week. Hopefully they're reading this thread and taking it into consideration. I honestly believe these changes are healthy for the class and game and I think the majority would agree - this might be the few "buff this" threads where other classes aren't swarming in exclaiming how OP the suggestions are . I just don't want to see my favorite class continue to be gutted if it's uniqueness and prowess in pvp.

I'm not holding my breath, but I will hope that they roll back some of the nerfs. I think the blocking changes are good, and any changes that penalize people who just rely on passives/skills to sit in the line of fire for ages. As others have mentioned though, with the CP changes, Dks would be in a pretty good spot. CP points was what made us OP. ZOS has in fact gone heavy handed with these changes. DKs are looking at continued low burst damage, the removal of any kind of viable heal, and heavily nerfed sustain. No matter what people say, the changes to DKs are incredibly heavy handed.

Drishtan

I would love a class cleanse.

Weps

Oh, and also DKs need some love passive-wise.
All other classes have cost reduction and max resources passives and also max magicka skills.
DKs have none. Zip. Nada. They just have all the Earthen Earth passives ( who have been nuked by this patch ) that are pretty much straight forward to the Stam Dk declination and they don't really help with ulti regen either, considering how resource management derived from Battle Roar will be considerably less effective if they keep the changes like this.

Imho, they should give the class more possibilities to overcome the upcoming nerfs by either giving the tools to still be even marginally effective or slightly increase the tankiness in order to compensate for the complete lack of self sustain.

If they keep the changes as-is, without tweaking the class here and there, the whole idea of standing your ground is completely jeopardize and everything will be even more sarcastic when Dragonknight bosses and mobs will have more effective and way more powerful skills than I do ( I'm looking at you Aurig and Silent Sword ).

And, of course, to stay on topic regarding the stand your ground issue, gives us Inferno AOE back.

NBrookus

Ishammael wrote: »

1. How many mDKs will run Igneous Shield after the Mending nerf? I know I wouldn't. Especially for Battlegrounds (i.e. no CPs), I only see a shield-stacking mDK as viable. Someone who has run Battlegrounds can fill me in on how this actually plays out. I simply don't see the HA mDK as possible, even running 2x sustain sets.

I won't. If Igneous isn't a damage shield AND doesn't give Major Mending, it's a waste of a slot. If mDK survives at all it'll be in light armor and sticks stacking healing ward and harness. Resto heavy attacking is a more reliable form of Major Mending and returns magicka as well.

Problem is, on live I usually have zero problems killing the light armor mag DKs I encounter because they are so squishy and can't get away. Granted, most of these are pve'ers and noobs as there are very few experienced mDKs running light armor. I know @blabafat was running light armor until recently and he's not so easy to kill, so it's not impossible (on live).

But I keep coming back to the notion if I'm going to wear light and shield stack... why wouldn't I play my sorc and get better burst, lower costs skills, better sustain and have mobility too? There's no compelling reason to play magDK if we lose the stand your ground and outsustain playstyle.

Drishtan

They gutted DK sustain but left all these sorc passives alone WHY ZOS WHY????

1.) Capacitor- Increases the Vestige's Magicka regeneration by 5%.
2.) Expert Mage- Reduces the cost of Storm Calling spells by 5%.
3.) Unholy Knowledge- Reduces Magicka and Stamina costs by 3%.
4.) Rebate- Player receives 10% max Magicka when one their summoned creatures is killed.
5.) Power Stone- Reduces the cost of Ultimate skills by 8%.
6.) Daderic Protection- Increases the Vestige's Health regeneration rate by 10% with any Summoning skill slotted.
7.) Implosion- OP Plain and simple(Not a resource one but extermely OP)

Weps

Drishtan wrote: »

I would love a class cleanse.

I was thinking about Igneous Shield tho.
It gives you Major Mending for a split second? Ok, but when you cast it at least you cleanse yourself from one negative effect, thus compensating from the fact that the "stand your ground" class now has to heal 16 times in a second in order to stay on top of all the *** people throw at you ( curses, poisons, roots and on and on ).
It's also hilarious that the king of rooting and slowing down people has no counter whatsoever when that happens to a DK.

I can't waste my whole life in this game farming set gears, farming money, farming mats to craft immovable pots.
Damn, somewhere in between the constant PvE wandering and 3D farmville activities, I want to play this game

I'm also totally not ok with the shared idea of having a passive execution.

It's so dirty, it'll put the whole class in a bad position.
Standing your ground, at least to me, it means you can outlast every opponent and if played correctly you can finish it off with the right move at the right time. It doens't mean you just pop up your resistance, do a leap when the enemy comes to you and just watch it explode. Dirty, easy, not really the DK style.

I'm ok with having an active exec. As I stated before, make the whip works pretty much like Aurig Mireh, when she whips you 3 times with increased damage when you're under 20% HP, will make me so happy that I might even forget half of these changes. I might.

Drishtan

If they gave us an execute on whip yes I too would live with all the changes!

Joy_Division

Ishammael wrote: »

Heroism should be on Inferno and its morphs.

At any rate, I haven't played in months because of lack of interest. Nothing I have seen in the upcoming patch seems worthwhile.

Basically, what @Joy_Division said: mDK isn't fun anymore.

Ish I hear you. I feel sorry for those who love their DKs because you're all begging ZoS for crumbs when you class has had the soul sucked out of it worse then mine. Have any two things in the game been nerfed more than Standard and Battle Roar?

I used to play a DK back in the day. It was by *far* the most fun class to play in ESO. And I didn't even know the "meta" builds that optimized the class. Most of my friends who are still with the game from the pre 1.6 era call me "Xanadu," because I played my DK a lot more than my Templar.

What are DKs reduced to today: begging ZoS for the status quo, so you can run around being "tanky" and annoying other players when a sorc with Encase and Negate is a lot more annoying. When people say DKs are awesome in groups or with a pocket templar, that's another way of saying they suck on their own.

Just roll a sorc until Camelot Unchained comes out and you can play a Mjolnir

GloryPTS

krathos wrote: »

@GloryPTS the wings ulti return is not OP when you consider warden is getting MAJOR heroism for reflecting magic projectiles.

Hilarious that I forgot but very true lol. Plus the Warden reflect is any projectile and lasts 10s iirc (at work)

krathos

Drishtan wrote: »

I would love a class cleanse.

@Drishtan yeah that would also be insanely helpful since we are losing A LOT of our potential to stand our ground and don't have very good maneuverability. What about making it so dragon's blood also removes 2 negative effects or gives snare immunity at the very least.

Durham

DK are still great tanks for PVE
Stam DK pushe

Weps wrote: »

Permablocking unkillable One Hand and Shield ulti spamming machines had to go, for the good of the game.
It becomes more challenging for them, it gives more options to all the people.

They took things a little too far with the passives changes.
If they want to keep them, they should at least raise the caps a little, just to stick to what they're trying to accomplish without destroying a class completely.

What I'm really disappointed about is the complete lack of compensation.
They just nerfed everything without thinking about how that will impact their fast paced combat system.

Regen, cost reduction, sustain are out of the window?
Well, I knew that was about to come so I dreamed about an increased efficiency with out DOTs ( another class defining characteristic of the DK) against players and finally an execution move for the Magicka Dk. It's now the worst class sustain-wise in the game, paired only by stamplars and it's a great unbalancing factor the idea that MagDKs still have to rely on unreliable DOTs and highly-complex-to-pull-off-combo-moves like Meteor + Fossilize + Whip.

I hope they will give the DKs more reliable and effective DOTs, a Whip with executing mechanics ( just like Aurig Mireh does when she whips 3 times in a row ) and maybe ( now this is just a wet dream of mine ) the chance to cleanse ourselves from one negative effect, thus keeping the "stand-your-ground" idea of the class untouched without causing its extinction nor turning again into an OP survivor.

They took it way to far ..... there is no stand your ground.... the only way you were close to perms blocking was utilization of shield ulti... but I still not understand the infatuation with nerfing a block build they have almost no impact in a battle...

Drishtan

krathos wrote: »

Drishtan wrote: »

I would love a class cleanse.

@Drishtan yeah that would also be insanely helpful since we are losing A LOT of our potential to stand our ground and don't have very good maneuverability. What about making it so dragon's blood also removes 2 negative effects or gives snare immunity at the very least.

Thats exactly what I was thinking when they changed Dragons blood last time. Well nows better time then any to add it!!

Vesper_BR

The thing that intrigues me is that is dks primarily fight in close range and we have none weapons to do so... If we use ours skills to atack we have to be magika based and staves are ranged with slowly animations... If we use weapons to atack we need to be stamina based and don't have any reliable class skills except two dots... We need magika meele weapons or stamina morphs of whip, inhale and talons... Dks are meele combatants, we don't stack shields or have glorious healings and cleanses, ours defense's comes from armor and sword and shield.

wimhwimladimf

DK is a tank no matter how you look at it. Sure you can item around dps but it will never be as good dps as Sorc or NB. If you wanted to deal dps, you shouldn't have roll DK, or did you expect to do similar dps to Sorc while being twice as tanky?

Vesper_BR

The thing isn't if we are DPS or not... We have skills that do damage close ranged, why do be forced to be ranged? We don't claim to be better DPS than a sorc or a NB... But inside our mechanics the things shouldn't be paradoxal...

Ishammael

Weps wrote: »

Permablocking unkillable One Hand and Shield ulti spamming machines had to go, for the good of the game.

This statement gets thrown around so much on the forms that it has reached a sort unassailable tyranny of groupthink. And as with most groupthink its completely braindead.

Consider
1. DKs haven't been "unkillable" since patch 1.3. That was 2.5 years ago.
2. Ult spam changed significantly as they adjusted ultimate reward from skill use during patches 1.3--1.4. -- 1.5. Not saying it was completely balanced, but the path was correct.
3. DKs was DEFINED by its ability to engage large numbers. Dynamic Ult plus Battle Roar allowed its power to scale with the number of players engaged. DK always had lower damage than other classes. It was a true nub-stomper, no doubt. But if you watch old videos carefully you'll see that the situations where these DKs failed occured when they fought fewer numbers or the other players were competent.
4. In any case, the entire class identity of DK has been lost since about mid 1.6 when CPs stated to dominate class power curves. That's why so many players get upset. The "YUGE influx" of mDK after the homestead class lasted what, 2 weeks? After players took their mDKs in Cyro and got stomped, they quickly rolled back to easier classes that perform better.

dodgehopper_ESO

I'd still like to see Flame Cloak make a comeback a la Hurricane.

Xvorg

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

DK is a tank no matter how you look at it. Sure you can item around dps but it will never be as good dps as Sorc or NB. If you wanted to deal dps, you shouldn't have roll DK, or did you expect to do similar dps to Sorc while being twice as tanky?

How much have you been playing this?