Is AP Boosting Cheating?

ExcaliburESO

Well not same farming vmol skin was a bug that avoided game mecs, atm farmin ap by taking keeps every 2 min is not exploit u dont avoid any mecs.

Grumble_and_Grunt

Can't believe people in this thread are still using differences between vMoL and AP boosting as a means of justifications for it not being cheating. Despite the OP mentioning it in his opening statement (one I do not agree with) they are in no way shape or form related, the fact they are not related also doesn't automatically make one is cheating the other not cheating.

Even more astounded how people are comparing AP boosting with grinding XP/CP. I mean is this a legitimate argument? Considering everything that has been said in this thread is this really a comparison? Grinding XP comparable to players in a PvP environment making use of a mechanic (one that is under review and will be changed most likely stated by @ZOS_BrianWheeler) to greatly inflate each others rewards by colluding with each other?

Feel like people will fabricate anything to save their own skin in the case ZOS were to take action, which they won't because ZOS are already churning the Morrowind wheel and getting ready to milk that cow so anything before this point will simply be ignored/put on hold since they probably don't want to waste the resources.

For arguments sake I would love to see the statistics on Haderus EU @ZOS_BrianWheeler, I mean at least this way you learnt something from the tests right? Seems the double AP was a terrible idea for at least EU since it's changed player behaviour dramatically.

Kodrac

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

) to greatly inflate each others rewards by colluding with each other?

Well, business ethics are a thing of the past. Personal ethics are quickly following.

geonsocal

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

Can't believe people in this thread are still using differences between vMoL and AP boosting as a means of justifications for it not being cheating. Despite the OP mentioning it in his opening statement (one I do not agree with) they are in no way shape or form related, the fact they are not related also doesn't automatically make one is cheating the other not cheating.

Even more astounded how people are comparing AP boosting with grinding XP/CP. I mean is this a legitimate argument? Considering everything that has been said in this thread is this really a comparison? Grinding XP comparable to players in a PvP environment making use of a mechanic (one that is under review and will be changed most likely stated by @ZOS_BrianWheeler) to greatly inflate each others rewards by colluding with each other?

Feel like people will fabricate anything to save their own skin in the case ZOS were to take action, which they won't because ZOS are already churning the Morrowind wheel and getting ready to milk that cow so anything before this point will simply be ignored/put on hold since they probably don't want to waste the resources.

For arguments sake I would love to see the statistics on Haderus EU @ZOS_BrianWheeler, I mean at least this way you learnt something from the tests right? Seems the double AP was a terrible idea for at least EU since it's changed player behaviour dramatically.

you are a beast @Grumble_and_Grunt ...remind me never to get in an argument with you...at this point i have a feeling i could state "the sun will come up tomorrow"; and, if you argued the contrary - i might start believing ya

checked your profile - you're killing it in regards to folks agreeing with you...would like to see (read: read your comments) what would happen if you tilted your focus more towards being awesome...berry interesting...

Universe

If you mean outposts flipping, no it isn't cheating.
You're welcome to join the party

Ron_Burgundy_79

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

Can't believe people in this thread are still using differences between vMoL and AP boosting as a means of justifications for it not being cheating. Despite the OP mentioning it in his opening statement (one I do not agree with) they are in no way shape or form related, the fact they are not related also doesn't automatically make one is cheating the other not cheating.

Both are exploits which does in fact make them related. I would have used a different exploit in comparison, but the vMoL exploit was the most recent.

Vezuls

bubbygink wrote: »

Vezuls wrote: »

3. To answer the threads question, is this cheating? No, it isn't. Why? Because as I explained above, noone is doing anything that breaks the coding of the game. Noone is doing anything with cheat engine. Noone is in a glitched spot getting more AP than intended by some other means. Noone (doing this "cheat") is in a glitched spot killing people while they can not be hit themselves. It's groups working together to get AP.

Is joining a guild and emptying out their guild bank for personal gain cheating?

Doing so doesn't break the code of the game, utilize a cheat engine, or take advantage of a glitch. It's simply taking advantage of the game mechanics to get gold. Or as you say, "use of game mechanics in a specific way for personal gain." So by your definition this is clearly not cheating right? Or will you change your definition to fit your narrative that boosting is not cheating?

As I've said, so many people in this thread trying to come up with these detailed definitions of why boosting "technically" isn't cheating and I just think it's ridiculous.

Funny, as I've had this happen to a raid guild I was in before. Is it cheating? Absolutely not. It's poor judgement on our part for allowing someone who we didn't play much have a high enough rank in the guild to do so. Just like in this instance with the "exploit." It's poor judgement on ZoS's part for not implementing a cooldown on keep ticks. Now, that kind of backfired on you, right? Actually helped me prove me point even more.

Vezuls

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

Can't believe people in this thread are still using differences between vMoL and AP boosting as a means of justifications for it not being cheating. Despite the OP mentioning it in his opening statement (one I do not agree with) they are in no way shape or form related, the fact they are not related also doesn't automatically make one is cheating the other not cheating.

Even more astounded how people are comparing AP boosting with grinding XP/CP. I mean is this a legitimate argument? Considering everything that has been said in this thread is this really a comparison? Grinding XP comparable to players in a PvP environment making use of a mechanic (one that is under review and will be changed most likely stated by @ZOS_BrianWheeler) to greatly inflate each others rewards by colluding with each other?

Feel like people will fabricate anything to save their own skin in the case ZOS were to take action, which they won't because ZOS are already churning the Morrowind wheel and getting ready to milk that cow so anything before this point will simply be ignored/put on hold since they probably don't want to waste the resources.

For arguments sake I would love to see the statistics on Haderus EU @ZOS_BrianWheeler, I mean at least this way you learnt something from the tests right? Seems the double AP was a terrible idea for at least EU since it's changed player behaviour dramatically.

No offense man, but you compared this to real life and when someone called you out you said it was an analogy. So how is it any different? We made good points and analogies that actually make sense, comparing grinding to this AP "exploit," and you still try to find some way to separate the two. Even funnier is this: ZoS has tried to nerf grinding MANY times, but it's not an exploit. So that directly counteracts what you were saying about grinding and AP farming being different because one will most likely be changed. Grinding spots have been changed multiple times so that's just another similarity!

Grumble_and_Grunt

@Vezuls By this logic; in that all actions by people deemed morally and by definition 'wrong' are simply a consequence of another person(s) negligence. Then that would mean any form of cheating and exploiting can be passed as blame on the development team for example and clear you of any wrong doing.

I understand the point you are trying to make in the case of guild banks and that the numeric values of the AP were intended by ZOS, but that doesn't justify player behaviour which is the key variable you are missing in your argument you are trying to reinforce.

Clearly everyone has different definitions of cheating, represented by the dismissal of the literal definition I mentioned earlier in the thread.

Peoples POV on cheating can be attributed to many factors/principles I guess some examples being nurture/Family raised you with their particular values or education, how you are taught right and wrong, both having a cultural influence as well. So because of this it does create too much of a grey area for ZOS having not set their own ground rules first to issue punishments.

However I thought for myself personally that it should be common knowledge that in PvP, abusing systems with opposing teams is clearly unsporting and has been punishable and is punishable in most PvP games since it ruins the integrity of the game and point of PvP. Keyword here is PvP since people are only justifying themselves in relation to the rewards and not for the mode itself and what it is supposed to be and supposed to be played.

But I can not agree with your logic here. Like it's your fault for giving the person the rank? Well it's an attributing factor, but does it excuse the fact and pass blame from the person who physically stole from it? No it does not.

It is the same here, ZOS put the system in place, but does that mean players behaving in boosting with other alliance players aka the complete opposite of PvP and player respect/sportsmanship to reap its benefits while still able are not in the wrong here either? I disagree.

It's like if someone at the bank made a clerical error meaning 1 Million of whatever your currency was deposited into your account, but the money was supposed to be given to say for example a charity organisation, but you withdraw it anyways since you believe it is merely the fault of the bank and their negligence, do you think it's still morally right to withdraw and spend the money? By your logic yes simply because that bank made the clerical error.

So from reading this thread it is apparent for most that the question of it is cheating is a moral one for most, since for reasons suggested it can not be taken quite literal.

Vezuls

@Grumble_and_Grunt Well, I'm answering the question of this thread: Is AP Boosting Cheating.


If we want to go into morality, then one could make an argument that it is immoral. But just as many would make a claim that it's smart play and not immoral.

All exploits do come at the negligence of the developers, in every game, whether it's a small or big hole that some people found to exploit. However, nothing "un mechanic like" is happening. Should 2 factions be working together to achieve good AP ticks? Probably not, but the way it's being done is "fair-play" and thats all I'm trying to say.

VMoL: exploit - you had to go in a glitched spot with no chance of failure
Double-Quintuple Mundus: exploit - you had to use means to get multiple mundus stones without TBS, but it's stated in the game the only way to have 2 Mundus stones is with TBS
AP: not exploit - you use the game mechanics cleverly to get AP quickly. Should this be changed? ABSOLUTELY, but I just fail to see how it's an exploit/cheating.

Those are the most recent examples I could think of.

TequilaFire

What I find amazing is it is not even necessary to make a deal with the enemy to get great AP.
Just run the inner ring and take back your home keeps when taken, it has been non stop action for us without having to take the same keep twice in a row.

I think this is just getting all out of proportion if you do as we do above you will not even notice the boosters.
Yes people boosting is a bad thing, but all this constant whining about it is why we can't have nice things.

Grumble_and_Grunt

@Vezuls Understandable, I think this is just an agree to disagree since the ultimate question of the thread for me is yes and isn't fair play, you disagree, I understand for some it is more subjective for them, I whole hardheartedly disagree with that and look at it more literal, so I understand your points you have validations for them, I just simply disagree so shall leave it there

@TequilaFire From looking at reactions from people on other platforms I feel Haderus EU is just a really extreme example, hence why it is provoking the most distaste and attention.

maxjapank

TequilaFire wrote: »

What I find amazing is it is not even necessary to make a deal with the enemy to get great AP.
Just run the inner ring and take back your home keeps when taken, it has been non stop action for us without having to take the same keep twice in a row.

I think this is just getting all out of proportion if you do as we do above you will not even notice the boosters.
Yes people boosting is a bad thing, but all this constant whining about it is why we can't have nice things.

See...it's your last sentence that doesn't make sense. When players are exploiting / cheating, we should speak up about it. Most of us will continue to play honestly. And we will continue to play regardless. We recognize that we have little control over it. But it's important that we don't remain silent about it.

Nyx2

Banetek wrote: »

You have to be careful as to not target the Role Play Community who often depend on taking turns and such in order for them to have any sense of enjoyment from ESO.. You see unlike real PvP, Rpers depend on staged events, which means it often means staged PvP also known as "Glamour Dueling"

So , if you are in a PvP area and are worried about people trading kills, keeps etc than I highly suggest you nicely ask them of they are RPing , Glamour dueling or are they cheating.

If repeatedly trading keeps is RP then that's some really sh!tty RP I have to say. The population for each faction is capped so if two factions have an agreement to team up and farm AP, gaining them much more than those that have to work for it then they're definitely cheating.

Ron_Burgundy_79

Vezuls wrote: »

@Grumble_and_Grunt Well, I'm answering the question of this thread: Is AP Boosting Cheating.


If we want to go into morality, then one could make an argument that it is immoral. But just as many would make a claim that it's smart play and not immoral.

All exploits do come at the negligence of the developers, in every game, whether it's a small or big hole that some people found to exploit. However, nothing "un mechanic like" is happening. Should 2 factions be working together to achieve good AP ticks? Probably not, but the way it's being done is "fair-play" and thats all I'm trying to say.

VMoL: exploit - you had to go in a glitched spot with no chance of failure
Double-Quintuple Mundus: exploit - you had to use means to get multiple mundus stones without TBS, but it's stated in the game the only way to have 2 Mundus stones is with TBS
AP: not exploit - you use the game mechanics cleverly to get AP quickly. Should this be changed? ABSOLUTELY, but I just fail to see how it's an exploit/cheating.

Those are the most recent examples I could think of.

It's an exploit. Boosting is colluding with the enemy to bypass in game mechanics in order to gain PVP currency. If that's not an exploit then there's never been an exploit in ESO.

TequilaFire

maxjapank wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

What I find amazing is it is not even necessary to make a deal with the enemy to get great AP.
Just run the inner ring and take back your home keeps when taken, it has been non stop action for us without having to take the same keep twice in a row.

I think this is just getting all out of proportion if you do as we do above you will not even notice the boosters.
Yes people boosting is a bad thing, but all this constant whining about it is why we can't have nice things.

See...it's your last sentence that doesn't make sense. When players are exploiting / cheating, we should speak up about it. Most of us will continue to play honestly. And we will continue to play regardless. We recognize that we have little control over it. But it's important that we don't remain silent about it.

But it has been brought to attention of @ZOS_BrianWheeler and he acknowledged they would be finding a solution hopefully a diminishing return solution.

What bothers me is those that are only complaining because someone may get rank faster than they did.
It is about time those of us that play to win the campaign taking keeps for score get rewarded rather than just mindlessly farming resource towers or Alessia bridge by the same group of people at the top of the leaderboards who have been colluding with the enemy since the beginning of the game.

Vaoh

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Vezuls wrote: »

@Grumble_and_Grunt Well, I'm answering the question of this thread: Is AP Boosting Cheating.


If we want to go into morality, then one could make an argument that it is immoral. But just as many would make a claim that it's smart play and not immoral.

All exploits do come at the negligence of the developers, in every game, whether it's a small or big hole that some people found to exploit. However, nothing "un mechanic like" is happening. Should 2 factions be working together to achieve good AP ticks? Probably not, but the way it's being done is "fair-play" and thats all I'm trying to say.

VMoL: exploit - you had to go in a glitched spot with no chance of failure
Double-Quintuple Mundus: exploit - you had to use means to get multiple mundus stones without TBS, but it's stated in the game the only way to have 2 Mundus stones is with TBS
AP: not exploit - you use the game mechanics cleverly to get AP quickly. Should this be changed? ABSOLUTELY, but I just fail to see how it's an exploit/cheating.

Those are the most recent examples I could think of.

It's an exploit. Boosting is colluding with the enemy to bypass in game mechanics in order to gain PVP currency. If that's not an exploit then there's never been an exploit in ESO.

AP Boosting has been shown to and acknowledged by ZOS in the past.... they went about solving the issue in a smarter way than banning the majority of their PvP players (bad idea lol). They simply changed how earning AP functions in order to remove incentives and/or tactics for boosting.

People used to get Emperorship, grind AP ranks, etc by killing groups of their friends repeatedly (the usual way to boost in other games) and ZOS responded by applying a cooldown to gaining full AP on killing any individual enemy. This method was much more efficient in messing up leaderboards and getting AP then the current Keep trading method but never warranted any bans.

If you notice, Devs have yet to respond to anyone asking if it's bannable. Simple answer - it's not. They will not immediately state this though because then it'd be even more widespread with an unnecessary confirmation like that going around.

What ZOS has said about this issue is that they are well aware of it, anticipated it before releasing these changes, and are going to keep the values on Keep/Resource/etc capture the same but make trading them not worth it. In other words, probably a cooldown will be put in place or certain debuffs as mentioned in a recent interview.

Magic_Longsword

Nyx2 wrote: »

Banetek wrote: »

You have to be careful as to not target the Role Play Community who often depend on taking turns and such in order for them to have any sense of enjoyment from ESO.. You see unlike real PvP, Rpers depend on staged events, which means it often means staged PvP also known as "Glamour Dueling"

So , if you are in a PvP area and are worried about people trading kills, keeps etc than I highly suggest you nicely ask them of they are RPing , Glamour dueling or are they cheating.

If repeatedly trading keeps is RP then that's some really sh!tty RP I have to say. The population for each faction is capped so if two factions have an agreement to team up and farm AP, gaining them much more than those that have to work for it then they're definitely cheating.

Actually, you'll find that it has been mentioned several times in other threads what kind of roleplay the people at Bleakers practice.


(Not my screen btw. Took it from the 200K at BB mine thread.

Magic_Longsword

Ultimately, the devs have the final word on what is an exploit and what isn't.

As far as I am aware, the outpost flipping hasn't been classified as an exploit by the game devs. As such I think it's fine to believe that it it isn't, no matter how supposedly amoral, easy, cheap, and disgusting you may consider it.

maxjapank

Vaoh wrote: »

AP Boosting has been shown to and acknowledged by ZOS in the past.... they went about solving the issue in a smarter way than banning the majority of their PvP players (bad idea lol).

I take issue with you assuming that the majority of PvP players exploit / cheat. From my experience, most PvP players do not. And many of them are more than happy when a known exploiter is banned.

Hashtag_

I have no problem with farming AP at a tower by killing people or in these cases an outpost by killing people. But with that said that is not what is happening. What is happening are large groups of EP/DC primarily from what I have seen on various platforms are leaving a wall down at an outpost and trading turns going in and capping and recapping without killing anyone but the NPCs. IMO that is a pure exploitation of mechanics. In PVE people have been banned for exploitation of mechanics and even in PVP with gap closing.

kyle.wilson

A lot of guild leads got their alliance rank boosted early after launch. After taking a defended resource or keep but, before tick the group would run away. Leaving only 1 person to get the entire tick. Also, some people had guildies play on other factions to get easy ap.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Magic_Longsword wrote: »

LoL this is hilarious. Just love it !

Vaoh

Magic_Longsword wrote: »

Nyx2 wrote: »

Banetek wrote: »

You have to be careful as to not target the Role Play Community who often depend on taking turns and such in order for them to have any sense of enjoyment from ESO.. You see unlike real PvP, Rpers depend on staged events, which means it often means staged PvP also known as "Glamour Dueling"

So , if you are in a PvP area and are worried about people trading kills, keeps etc than I highly suggest you nicely ask them of they are RPing , Glamour dueling or are they cheating.

If repeatedly trading keeps is RP then that's some really sh!tty RP I have to say. The population for each faction is capped so if two factions have an agreement to team up and farm AP, gaining them much more than those that have to work for it then they're definitely cheating.

Actually, you'll find that it has been mentioned several times in other threads what kind of roleplay the people at Bleakers practice.


(Not my screen btw. Took it from the 200K at BB mine thread.

LOL this is amazing xD

Magic_Longsword

Vaoh wrote: »

Magic_Longsword wrote: »

Nyx2 wrote: »

Banetek wrote: »

You have to be careful as to not target the Role Play Community who often depend on taking turns and such in order for them to have any sense of enjoyment from ESO.. You see unlike real PvP, Rpers depend on staged events, which means it often means staged PvP also known as "Glamour Dueling"

So , if you are in a PvP area and are worried about people trading kills, keeps etc than I highly suggest you nicely ask them of they are RPing , Glamour dueling or are they cheating.

If repeatedly trading keeps is RP then that's some really sh!tty RP I have to say. The population for each faction is capped so if two factions have an agreement to team up and farm AP, gaining them much more than those that have to work for it then they're definitely cheating.

Actually, you'll find that it has been mentioned several times in other threads what kind of roleplay the people at Bleakers practice.


(Not my screen btw. Took it from the 200K at BB mine thread.

LOL this is amazing xD

Can't take the credit for that, but you'll find it that may roleplayers at Bleakers aren't two-dimensional baddies. This roleplayer in particular keeps coming up with hilarious excuses for anything he does. And you should see the MODT of their guild.. (been there for a couple of days, but they have an actual roleplaying guild to "better organise the cross-faction RP").

No matter how much crap the EU community is taking right now, you can't really deny it's at the very least entertaining.

Ron_Burgundy_79

At this point it's clear that ZOS doesn't give a damn about the current pvp rewards or ranking system. They don't care about the value of pvp currency.

It's frustrating to be a player that doesn't AP boost. I'm now at a disadvantage because I rely on selling motifs and gold rewards from the end of the campaign to make gold.

Heruthema

Sugar coat it all you want, it is still cheating at it's heart. Players that take part in this practice are spitting in the face of the leader board and the Achievement of Emperor. Just because you can do this does not mean you should. So go ahead and logic your way to believing what you are doing is alright.

Paulo69

I reported a list of 40 players, including a video of them flipping an outpost on PS4/EU. 14k AP per tick every 2 minutes. Support gave me an automatic answer, I doubt they read it.

Ticket #170304-002922, if any ZoS member do cares.

zaria

Heruthema wrote: »

Sugar coat it all you want, it is still cheating at it's heart. Players that take part in this practice are spitting in the face of the leader board and the Achievement of Emperor. Just because you can do this does not mean you should. So go ahead and logic your way to believing what you are doing is alright.

Agree here, see it as an exploit.
on the other hand its a bit hard to police outside of the most obvious cases.
In patch the AP gain have been reduced to 3000 an cool down especially an smart one who gave xp for one fast switch forward and back but not many would have worked far better.

Vaoh

Paulo69 wrote: »

I reported a list of 40 players, including a video of them flipping an outpost on PS4/EU. 14k AP per tick every 2 minutes. Support gave me an automatic answer, I doubt they read it.

Ticket #170304-002922, if any ZoS member do cares.

By doing this, were you not at the Keep/Outpost raking in AP? (aka "cheating")

40 players take awhile to report.... plus you recorded a vid in which you probably pointed them all out.

Therefore if action must be taken on their accounts, you aren't exactly the cleanest individual. So this assumes you showed up, took your video+filed reports and then left the area, which is doubtful considering you stayed there for easily 30-60min just to accomplish those tasks alone....