Is AP Boosting Cheating?

Sheezabeast

I believe the root of this problem can be summed up in 2 problems: the implications of Emperor, and the motives of soldiers in the war.

The implications of Emperor to some may be to show up at every fight, repair walls, and try very hard with boots on the ground, trying to get Emperor and if achieved, maintain it. But it just isn't like that anymore, that guy is now looking aghast at the leaderboards, seeing people with 2x their AP, that are not present for much if any fighting, are not seen doing much, and are only scoring because if AP feeding in dungeons or at resources.

The motives of soldiers at war meet a divergence when ideologies clash over being there for the fun of pvp/defending your faction/running in your guild, ect. Actually playing the game with its intended spirit as shown by the ESO pvp trailer. The other side of it is the people who only fight for AP, they don't help take objectives, they literally go where they think they can get AP. They are not motivated by loyalty, they are there for the AP grind.

Zos can't please everyone...I think its against the spirit of the game, its scummy to do, but if Zos doesn't come out and say one way or the other that its ok or not, then players are let loose to set their own parameters for what they consider fair play, then no one wins

Elara_Northwind

Some people were freely admitting in zone chat in Haderus that they were going to set up some macros and go watch netflix while the ap rolled in. If thats not cheating, I don't know what is! I can't believe ZOS aren't doing anything to stop this behaviour, anyone who believes this isn't cheating are only trying to convince themselves so that they feel better about being complete scumbags.

Rickter

why go full banning? just take their AvA ranks away.

i mean, what are they going to do with their 1 billion AP thats going to hurt anyone? but def take the undeserved rank away

alexkdd99

Apokalypt wrote: »

It is not cheating.

It may be cheesy and all, but if Zenimax didn`t wan`t it to happen, they could have fixed it with the last maintenance.

Ranks in ESO don`t say much. It is (or was) just an indicator on how much time you spent farming in Cyrodiil.
Zergs etc. made pvp *** before that "exploit".

The vMoL skin was different, because it clearly was not intended and a bug. Also, it is related to "skill" and not just time spent.

Even with the keep flipping, you still need 100+ hours to reach rank 50....but IMO better than 1000+ hours...

They should have made arena pvp for the real pvpers, because that actually would indicate something...

Lol so you are saying zos intended for factions to work together GIVING each other resources? Sorry but it is very unlikely zos intended for people to do this. So as the vMOL exploit was not intended, this also was not intended.

Abusing the system to gain an unfair advantage while doing something outside the scope of playing the game in its intended way, is cheating.

By them not defending the keep or resource and allowing them to take it, constitutes playing the game in an unintended way.

Whether zos bans anyone is entirely up to them. I bet those saying this is not cheating also think that meeting a friend to exchange kills is also not cheating? Boosting, which is what this is, gives an unfair advantage over those not boosting and playing the game as it was intended.

Of course I think anyone who read the post above yours figured this out. Very well thought out explanation as to why it's cheating.

Elara_Northwind

Surely if they are using macros, and admitting to that, then that IS classed as cheating. I have about 10 minutes recorded on video of a bunch of these guys talking about doing exactly that. They would surely be banned, if ZoS were to see that video, no?

bubbygink

Rickter wrote: »

why go full banning? just take their AvA ranks away.

i mean, what are they going to do with their 1 billion AP thats going to hurt anyone? but def take the undeserved rank away

I agree with this but do think the AP itself should be removed too. I definitely don't think full bans are warranted. Taking away the AP and ranks gained from boosting seems appropriate. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe there is precedence for this. Didn't ZoS take away the AP (and actually a little bit extra even) from the PC players who boosted on Blackboot mine? Perhaps they will do the same thing here?

Grumble_and_Grunt

Vercingetorix wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

As someone who dislikes PvP as a general rule, I'm only interested in farming AP this week for the things I've essentially been locked out of since release. Extra skill points, color dyes, and Akaviri motif pages are now a feasible goal for many this week. Our farming is not hurting anyone and certainly not "cheapening" a GO title that I can assure you means nothing as everyone who is Rank 50 was a farmer long before this week started.

There are several degenerates in each faction that have a deluded sense of self-worth and feel the insecure need to "defend" their title (which they farmed themselves, ironically enough) by interfering with a grind that honestly does zero harm to the game, nor violates the ToS.

By that argument, ZOS should have a EZ Trials week so PvPers "locked out" of achievements, skins and titles from trials can be sure to get all the goodies without any of the effort needed to put together solid groups, learn the mechanics or play well enough to complete them.

Oh yes, and better include VMA. It won't cheapen Flawless Conqueror if everyone can get it and their sharpened inferno staff by light attacking their way through 9 rounds, right?

Unlike you, I don't get worked up about other people's accomplishments or how they get them - because they aren't me and aren't playing my character. I'm playing my game and should have my concerns on how I want to get my accomplishments on my own character. But hey, maybe it's a maturity thing?

I got Flawless Conqueror after a few attempts by mostly heavy attacking on concussed mobs with a generic sharpened lightning staff on my mag DK. I think anyone can do it with some practice and I don't think that title means anything (I don't even display it - I use "Daedric Lord Destroyer" because it sounds cool, lol).

As for trials, most PvE AND PvP players (including myself) are "locked out" the achievements due to the 12-man requirement as well as specific gear needs. Also, I don't care about PvP titles or AP - I just want the Akaviri motif - If I can pick up some color dyes and skill points along the way, why not? You may want to go sit in the corner and let off some steam buddy... All that hate, salt, and jealousy isn't good for your health, lol.

If you just wanted Akaviri Motif pages, ZOS had already implemented a system for people such as yourself who do not enjoy specific types of content to obtain them aka Trading them for gold via Guild Stores. In fact then you could be like there is a physical gold barrier between me and this content with gold and AP being currency to obtain items also. So if you were to find a means to exploit gold it wouldn't be a problem either right? But it would be and everyone would be up and arms about it.

Claiming you have been locked out of the content unless you physically go to PvP and abuse a broken mechanic whilst colluding with the opposing teams you're supposed to be fighting (being you know a PvP environment and all) is literally a ridiculous excuse.

Likewise to whomever said about both alliances 'teaming' up to depose an emp. Those players are still playing the objectives/PvP'ing whether you deem it ethical or not is another question, but it is still PvP within the realms of the systems I mentioned above without outright devaluing others. It's common sense for two parties to go the whole enemy of my enemy is my friend, it's not really a problem if you read Brian Wheeler latest interview about Battlegrounds, ZOS find it interesting to see how people approach the stronger faction/team. There is a huge difference in this and two teams simply disregarding PvP to exploit the reward system for PvP.

Vercingetorix

bubbygink wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

why go full banning? just take their AvA ranks away.

i mean, what are they going to do with their 1 billion AP thats going to hurt anyone? but def take the undeserved rank away

I agree with this but do think the AP itself should be removed too. I definitely don't think full bans are warranted. Taking away the AP and ranks gained from boosting seems appropriate. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe there is precedence for this. Didn't ZoS take away the AP (and actually a little bit extra even) from the PC players who boosted on Blackboot mine? Perhaps they will do the same thing here?

That Mine thing was AP gained from an exploit, not using the mechanics of the game but rather a deficiency on how AP was given. That mine farm WAS a violation of the ToS. What's happening right now in Cyrodiil is people capping resources, which is the mechanics of the game. Is it gaming the established system? Yes, but not violating any rules. Taking away AP or rank from players indiscriminately is what would happen if that suggestion were followed. ZoS already commented on the farming, btw. They said it was " a clever use of the existing mechanics, but not cheating". If you don't want to farm, fine. Others are only in Cyrodiil for the one week to get their motifs and skill points. I already know several of my friends who hit Rank 50 this week. Trust me, none of us are stepping foot in Cyrodiil ever again after this week - we'll have everything we'll ever need from it for the foreseeable future.

Vercingetorix

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

As someone who dislikes PvP as a general rule, I'm only interested in farming AP this week for the things I've essentially been locked out of since release. Extra skill points, color dyes, and Akaviri motif pages are now a feasible goal for many this week. Our farming is not hurting anyone and certainly not "cheapening" a GO title that I can assure you means nothing as everyone who is Rank 50 was a farmer long before this week started.

There are several degenerates in each faction that have a deluded sense of self-worth and feel the insecure need to "defend" their title (which they farmed themselves, ironically enough) by interfering with a grind that honestly does zero harm to the game, nor violates the ToS.

By that argument, ZOS should have a EZ Trials week so PvPers "locked out" of achievements, skins and titles from trials can be sure to get all the goodies without any of the effort needed to put together solid groups, learn the mechanics or play well enough to complete them.

Oh yes, and better include VMA. It won't cheapen Flawless Conqueror if everyone can get it and their sharpened inferno staff by light attacking their way through 9 rounds, right?

Unlike you, I don't get worked up about other people's accomplishments or how they get them - because they aren't me and aren't playing my character. I'm playing my game and should have my concerns on how I want to get my accomplishments on my own character. But hey, maybe it's a maturity thing?

I got Flawless Conqueror after a few attempts by mostly heavy attacking on concussed mobs with a generic sharpened lightning staff on my mag DK. I think anyone can do it with some practice and I don't think that title means anything (I don't even display it - I use "Daedric Lord Destroyer" because it sounds cool, lol).

As for trials, most PvE AND PvP players (including myself) are "locked out" the achievements due to the 12-man requirement as well as specific gear needs. Also, I don't care about PvP titles or AP - I just want the Akaviri motif - If I can pick up some color dyes and skill points along the way, why not? You may want to go sit in the corner and let off some steam buddy... All that hate, salt, and jealousy isn't good for your health, lol.

If you just wanted Akaviri Motif pages, ZOS had already implemented a system for people such as yourself who do not enjoy specific types of content to obtain them aka Trading them for gold via Guild Stores. In fact then you could be like there is a physical gold barrier between me and this content with gold and AP being currency to obtain items also. So if you were to find a means to exploit gold it wouldn't be a problem either right? But it would be and everyone would be up and arms about it.

Claiming you have been locked out of the content unless you physically go to PvP and abuse a broken mechanic whilst colluding with the opposing teams you're supposed to be fighting (being you know a PvP environment and all) is literally a ridiculous excuse.

Likewise to whomever said about both alliances 'teaming' up to depose an emp. Those players are still playing the objectives/PvP'ing whether you deem it ethical or not is another question, but it is still PvP within the realms of the systems I mentioned above without outright devaluing others. It's common sense for two parties to go the whole enemy of my enemy is my friend, it's not really a problem if you read Brian Wheeler latest interview about Battlegrounds, ZOS find it interesting to see how people approach the stronger faction/team. There is a huge difference in this and two teams simply disregarding PvP to exploit the reward system for PvP.

LMFAO - Like I would give the same scumbag AP farmers who grab Emp every month MY gold? Nah, I think I'll stick to getting my motif pages for FREE playing the game with the mechanics as they are right now. IF ZoS wants resources to cap for 14k a pop, then who am I to argue? Free skill points and AP. There's nothing that's broken, except maybe your pride... LOL

Ron_Burgundy_79

Vercingetorix wrote: »

bubbygink wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

why go full banning? just take their AvA ranks away.

i mean, what are they going to do with their 1 billion AP thats going to hurt anyone? but def take the undeserved rank away

I agree with this but do think the AP itself should be removed too. I definitely don't think full bans are warranted. Taking away the AP and ranks gained from boosting seems appropriate. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe there is precedence for this. Didn't ZoS take away the AP (and actually a little bit extra even) from the PC players who boosted on Blackboot mine? Perhaps they will do the same thing here?

That Mine thing was AP gained from an exploit, not using the mechanics of the game but rather a deficiency on how AP was given. That mine farm WAS a violation of the ToS. What's happening right now in Cyrodiil is people flipping outposts by only killing NPC's while an enemy faction watches, waiting for their turn in a few seconds, which is the mechanics of the game. Is it gaming the established system? Yes, but not violating any rules. Taking away AP or rank from players indiscriminately is what would happen if that suggestion were followed. ZoS already commented on the boosting, btw. They said it was " a clever use of the existing mechanics, but not cheating". If you don't want to boost, fine. Others are only in Cyrodiil for the one week to get their motifs and skill points. I already know several of my friends who hit Rank 50 this week. Trust me, none of us are stepping foot in Cyrodiil ever again after this week - we'll have everything we'll ever need from it for the foreseeable future.

Fixed.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I would say it depends on how it is being done. If two teams in different factions openly communicate, "hey I am gonna take this resource, then leave, so you can take it, and Ill be back in 5 minutes" then I would say you have a real issue. Proving that would be tough, but I think that is something that should be punishable in one way or another.

The interesting thing about the new scoring is that it promotes offense, and frankly does not reward defense. In the double AP week, there is a lot of keep and resource flipping going on.

Personally, we have been doing a lot of small man resource capturing behind enemy lines. They usually dont keep very long, so often we just flip it again. If we see enemies, we engage them. Is that AP boosting or farming or playing the game? The line gets blurry really fast. For example, we made a circle around Drake when AD had both Drake and BRK. We flipped each resource 2-3 times in the span of 15 minutes. Yes the AP was good, but it also was a big enough distraction for us to get BRK back. You could of certainly watched a bird's eye view of that whole thing and potentially thought we were just trading resources. I guess the point is, everyone sees collaboration between the other two factions, but often, it is just not there.

Anti_Virus

Vaoh wrote: »

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

You'd not only ban half of the already tiny PvP popluation - we would ban a ton of PvEers who jumped in for easy AP as well. All because it is "immoral" to farm AP this way.

We are seeing players who are playing the very mechanics of Keep/Respurce taking. If you capture it, you get AP. Simple. No bugs, exploits, hacks, cheats, or whatever are being used. The current system set in place is just very badly implemented. A simple 5-10min cooldown on the AP ticks would've solved the issue.

Of course this is not moral..... but it still is not something to ban people over. That'd be ridiculous tbh.

Imagine this situation - if a token system was implemented for Maw of Lorkhaj, and the first boss purposely gave quadruple the tokens than other bosses on release. Terrible design which is easily farmable (as we see in PvP right now). Now players start farming this boss. The Devs announce they have the intention of significantly reducing the token drop rate or setting a cooldown on the boss token timer.

Should the players who gained their loot much faster by running Maw with this terrible token design get banned? I'd think not.

This is how I see it at least I hate the situation in Cyrodiil right now, but banning people seems crazy for not breaking anything, exploiting, cheating, etc. It sucks but it is very much fair play devoid of cheats imo. Just terrible design which will be resolved in less than a week according to ZOS.

How is the AP boosting any different than exploiting a bug to get the vmol skin? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't ZOS come out and say it was an exploit and exploiters would be punished?

For the record, I don't have the vmol skin yet, and I'm not a grand overlord.

Those people exploited an area of the map to loot chests without fighting bosses (obvious exploit) and then fight and kill Rakkhat from a distance as he stood still without activating the actual fight. There were numerous exploits at work, creating a massive exploit using multiple bugged spots/encounters. You also could loot and defeat Hard Mode this way. It got people permabanned for good reason.

Farming AP at a Keep by standing on the flag, then having enemy players follow mechanics (though in an immoral way) to flip it for their alliance is 100% not cheating in any way. It's stupid, yes, but absolutely not cheating or abusing bugs/exploits. It's just using badly implemented mechanics in the most obvious way they'd be used.

This is by definition is cheating is it not?

Cheat

1 [no object] Act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.


1.1[with object] Gain an advantage over or deprive of something by using unfair or deceitful methods; defraud.

PvP in this game is inherently objective based, whether you play objectives or not in PvP that is its core system. It revolves mainly around 3 systems and 3 Alliances (Teams); (1) Score with multiple attributing factors related to objectives (2) Leaderboards, a system that revolves around AP aka Emperorship as well as contributing to your end campaign rewards and (3) AvA Ranks The 'reward' system for PvP made apparent by; sense of progression, skill points/ achievements, titles and symbols etc.

The 3 systems intertwine with each other to form Cyrodiil PvP. The leaderboard system encourages players to PvP to gain AP to position themselves onto the leaderboards in order to obtain Emperorship, which then spills into the score/objective based system of obtaining AP via capture/defences as well as capturing the 6 Emperor keeps to become Emperor, with all actions contributing to AvA ranks.

That is PvP at its core and as 'designed' since I see this word being thrown around a lot.

Now I know as well as most that the system has gotten stale over the years and that a lot of players (myself included) no longer play objective PvP and therefore care little for the systems in place, but this isn't the case for everyone, new players especially. This is how PvP is designed to be played and whether you play objectives or not you're merely playing around these systems and what is happening on the map to orientate your PvP.

Recently however there have been numerical changes, designed to encourage people to play Cyrodiil as designed by the development team in increasing the AP gains from 'objectives' to compliment all systems. To encourage more objective based PvP by feeding directly into the rewards (3).

However because of this select individuals have congregated on multiple Alliances to manipulate this change to significantly increase their AP gains aka boosting, something that is frowned upon in next to all PvP orientated games.

Many claim they are simply reaping the benefits of a flawed system, but by definition this is false. The problem itself isn't the numerical changes to AP (yes they are high/ considered too much making the AvA reward system redundant potentially as well as the recent changes for AP: Gold with the new overland bags). The abuse/manipulation and by definition cheating comes from the dishonest and unfair gameplay from trading kills with 'enemy players'. To be in agreement with the opposing Alliance (Team) to give each other AP aka significant advantages over those who are playing honestly.

An example of this is how doing so affects leaderboards and Emperorship. How it spoils the designed reward system of PvP. Something that is clearly being stressed by many in game and on the forums. It also for the PvE players coming to leech for Achievements is a dishonest means of obtaining those and as well as it's a dishonest means of making gold currently in ESO which then affects economy also (although is less an issue).

People such as @Vaoh here, no disrespect can have their views, but by definition it is cheating. I am shocked so many of the community defend this or even question it to the point they feel they need clarification from ZOS. Although I do feel we should receive it in light of all this @ZOS_BrianWheeler.

But simply put it should be obvious in an environment with systems mentioned above as to how they were designed where you are purposely negotiating with other 'teams' to behave in such a manipulative way to abuse the rewarding system then claim to be simply playing as intended is outright deceitful and unethical, also traits also associated with cheating.

To put it into perspective. Football/Soccer, a sport everyone is familiar with. If both teams were to negotiate with each other before the game to pre determine a forced outcome 'winner' to benefit themselves financially it would be considered a scandal. It's not so different here. Difference being the financial aid/reward is the AP with the winners being both parties who willingly participated in the agreement. This would in directly affect the integrity of the club, in this case the game rep for PvP. One that is already dire and it also affects the third party the other clubs, in this case say those who do not partake, as in they do not reap any benefits, but have been deceived and suffer for it (leaderboard positions etc)

I am sorry but I don't see how it isn't cheating, despite all the discussed work arounds and loop holes at its core it is cheating through and through.

LOL. Tyvm for calling me out despite the fact that I've been quite vocally against this behavior. Totally going to support your argument. (-_-)

The difference between you and I is that I'm only here to shed light on the circumstances as we know them and as ZOS has treated this behavior in the past, whereas you are asking for hordes and hordes of your daily PvPers (scarce population as it is) to be removed from the game.

If you are going to create a thread asking a question don't get angry when people answer in a way that doesn't support your preconceived arguments. You really shouldn't have asked the question in your thread title if you insist on fighting about the answer.

This is not cheating, and no matter how much you insist it is this will not change. You can dig as deep as you want, find definitions of cheating on Google and apply them on your own terms, compare real life to ESO (fr?) and so much more - it changes nothing at all.

In the past, people boosted AP by allowing themselves to respawn and be killed nearby over and over again in rapid succession. We asked ZoS about bans, and they explicitly stated that such behavior was not at all bannable and would be handled by other means. It lead to the addition of a cooldown on gaining full AP when you kill any individual player (fixed the issue).

Our current situation is the same - people are boosting AP and it's illegitimate. The offense is the same. The solution will also be the same. Expect (as already stated by ZOS) for changes to be added on Keep/Outpost/Resource/Flag capture that make such methods of farming AP no longer worth it and in turn solving the issue.

Does the situation suck right now? Yes.
Will it be resolved very soon? Yes.
Should people that took part in playing the game and not cheating/exploiting/hacking be removed from the community? That is up to anyone to decide, but *I* believe that it is not at all something we should remove like half of our PvPers and many PvEers for.

https://youtu.be/jQOQ3RBKvbE

bubbygink

Vercingetorix wrote: »

ZoS already commented on the farming, btw. They said it was " a clever use of the existing mechanics, but not cheating". If you don't want to farm, fine.

People always say this but never has anybody pointed me in the direction of where ZoS has said that. I am guessing this will be no different but I will ask: Where did ZoS say colluding with the enemy to boost each other's AP is a "clever use of mechanics" and "not cheating"?

To reiterate once again, nobody is complaining about farming enemy players on an outpost or going around the map to capture resources - these are legitimate ways to earn AP. This thread is discussing boosting - i.e. colluding with members of another alliance to get AP without actually PvPing or participating in alliance war.

If you have a plan laid out with the enemy to get a bunch of AP you are boosting. If you come up with a plan of "you take the keep, then we take it back, then you take the keep, then we take it back - and the whole time we won't fight each other but will just watch each other and let it happen" then you are boosting. If you are just trying to farm AP by capturing or defending a resource/keep/outpost and are fighting whatever enemies spontaneously appear then clearly you are not boosting, you are just gaining/farming AP which is fine. In one scenario (boosting) you are explicitly working with the enemy, in the other (farming) you are literally killing them. Can you not see the difference? Can you not see how its wrong and completely contrary to the entire purpose of Cyrodiil, alliance war, and PvP to work together with the enemy to boost each other up?

Grumble_and_Grunt

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

As someone who dislikes PvP as a general rule, I'm only interested in farming AP this week for the things I've essentially been locked out of since release. Extra skill points, color dyes, and Akaviri motif pages are now a feasible goal for many this week. Our farming is not hurting anyone and certainly not "cheapening" a GO title that I can assure you means nothing as everyone who is Rank 50 was a farmer long before this week started.

There are several degenerates in each faction that have a deluded sense of self-worth and feel the insecure need to "defend" their title (which they farmed themselves, ironically enough) by interfering with a grind that honestly does zero harm to the game, nor violates the ToS.

By that argument, ZOS should have a EZ Trials week so PvPers "locked out" of achievements, skins and titles from trials can be sure to get all the goodies without any of the effort needed to put together solid groups, learn the mechanics or play well enough to complete them.

Oh yes, and better include VMA. It won't cheapen Flawless Conqueror if everyone can get it and their sharpened inferno staff by light attacking their way through 9 rounds, right?

Unlike you, I don't get worked up about other people's accomplishments or how they get them - because they aren't me and aren't playing my character. I'm playing my game and should have my concerns on how I want to get my accomplishments on my own character. But hey, maybe it's a maturity thing?

I got Flawless Conqueror after a few attempts by mostly heavy attacking on concussed mobs with a generic sharpened lightning staff on my mag DK. I think anyone can do it with some practice and I don't think that title means anything (I don't even display it - I use "Daedric Lord Destroyer" because it sounds cool, lol).

As for trials, most PvE AND PvP players (including myself) are "locked out" the achievements due to the 12-man requirement as well as specific gear needs. Also, I don't care about PvP titles or AP - I just want the Akaviri motif - If I can pick up some color dyes and skill points along the way, why not? You may want to go sit in the corner and let off some steam buddy... All that hate, salt, and jealousy isn't good for your health, lol.

If you just wanted Akaviri Motif pages, ZOS had already implemented a system for people such as yourself who do not enjoy specific types of content to obtain them aka Trading them for gold via Guild Stores. In fact then you could be like there is a physical gold barrier between me and this content with gold and AP being currency to obtain items also. So if you were to find a means to exploit gold it wouldn't be a problem either right? But it would be and everyone would be up and arms about it.

Claiming you have been locked out of the content unless you physically go to PvP and abuse a broken mechanic whilst colluding with the opposing teams you're supposed to be fighting (being you know a PvP environment and all) is literally a ridiculous excuse.

Likewise to whomever said about both alliances 'teaming' up to depose an emp. Those players are still playing the objectives/PvP'ing whether you deem it ethical or not is another question, but it is still PvP within the realms of the systems I mentioned above without outright devaluing others. It's common sense for two parties to go the whole enemy of my enemy is my friend, it's not really a problem if you read Brian Wheeler latest interview about Battlegrounds, ZOS find it interesting to see how people approach the stronger faction/team. There is a huge difference in this and two teams simply disregarding PvP to exploit the reward system for PvP.

LMFAO - Like I would give the same scumbag AP farmers who grab Emp every month MY gold? Nah, I think I'll stick to getting my motif pages for FREE playing the game with the mechanics as they are right now. IF ZoS wants resources to cap for 14k a pop, then who am I to argue? Free skill points and AP. There's nothing that's broken, except maybe your pride... LOL

My pride is still intact no worries, I care little for ranks in PvP. I care ofc since it is one of the only reward systems in place, but for me the fun is in the fights, something that this method boycotts.

I think I will cease to provide constructive counter arguments to yourself given your means of communicating your arguments. My issue is less of what is being done, but more the reaction of people such as yourself within the community. There is a clear distinct disillusionment between people who solely PvP and PvE this much is crystal clear from this week and for me this as evident by such a comment from yourself breeds toxic behaviour and a segregated pride as mentioned between the two modes of content.

To which now I really ask myself, given this is normally a problem in most MMO is how do we counter this to have a community that actively works in tangent to help the game flourish since we all enjoy it so much to log in almost every day right?

So when something which is clearly cheating, to which ZOS have by remaining silent on the matter created a grey area, although I personally didn't think colluding with enemy factions to abuse the reward system could be anything but cheating. The problem really for me is how we as players should be using the forums to reach out to the development team on our feelings towards it to create and strive towards a better more balanced and fun game for ourselves and for the company's growth. When players are using the forums as a platform to excuse their ill actions and throw mud at those stating the obvious I feel we have a problem and the reason I felt to get involved in the discussion.

bubbygink

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I would say it depends on how it is being done. If two teams in different factions openly communicate, "hey I am gonna take this resource, then leave, so you can take it, and Ill be back in 5 minutes" then I would say you have a real issue. Proving that would be tough, but I think that is something that should be punishable in one way or another.

The interesting thing about the new scoring is that it promotes offense, and frankly does not reward defense. In the double AP week, there is a lot of keep and resource flipping going on.

Personally, we have been doing a lot of small man resource capturing behind enemy lines. They usually dont keep very long, so often we just flip it again. If we see enemies, we engage them. Is that AP boosting or farming or playing the game? The line gets blurry really fast. For example, we made a circle around Drake when AD had both Drake and BRK. We flipped each resource 2-3 times in the span of 15 minutes. Yes the AP was good, but it also was a big enough distraction for us to get BRK back. You could of certainly watched a bird's eye view of that whole thing and potentially thought we were just trading resources. I guess the point is, everyone sees collaboration between the other two factions, but often, it is just not there.

Again, I don't think the line is blurry at all. You stated the line yourself in your post and it is very clear. Boosting is exactly what you describe at the start of your post: colluding with another alliance to flip a resource/keep/outpost/etc. back and forth while not engaging each other so that everyone gains a lot of AP.

Because of the way the scoring works things like you describe toward the bottom (sorta playing ring around the rosie on a keep's resources) will happen from time to time. And I understand that sometimes players will run by an enemy to get to a more important object (e.g. flipping a keep). But the point is that, as you said, you are still fighting and engaging enemies. You are not explicitly working together with them. So it isn't boosting by any stretch.

I agree with you that it isn't always easy to prove boosting. Because some things may look like boosting that aren't. But it is very clearly boosting when a group of 20 blues takes a keep while 20 reds wait up top. Then after flipping it the blues run up top and the reds come down to take the keep. Then once the reds take it they move back up and its the blue's turns and so on and so forth for 5 hours+. It is not "blurry" here. It is clearly cheating.

Tl;dr - if you collude with enemy players to make AP you are boosting, otherwise you are not.

Ron_Burgundy_79

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I would say it depends on how it is being done. If two teams in different factions openly communicate, "hey I am gonna take this resource, then leave, so you can take it, and Ill be back in 5 minutes" then I would say you have a real issue. Proving that would be tough, but I think that is something that should be punishable in one way or another.

The interesting thing about the new scoring is that it promotes offense, and frankly does not reward defense. In the double AP week, there is a lot of keep and resource flipping going on.

Personally, we have been doing a lot of small man resource capturing behind enemy lines. They usually dont keep very long, so often we just flip it again. If we see enemies, we engage them. Is that AP boosting or farming or playing the game? The line gets blurry really fast. For example, we made a circle around Drake when AD had both Drake and BRK. We flipped each resource 2-3 times in the span of 15 minutes. Yes the AP was good, but it also was a big enough distraction for us to get BRK back. You could of certainly watched a bird's eye view of that whole thing and potentially thought we were just trading resources. I guess the point is, everyone sees collaboration between the other two factions, but often, it is just not there.

Here's a brief summary of what was happening at Sejanus Outpost in Thornblade on Xbox NA:

AD group owns the outpost, and stays on the south side of the top floor. The DC group runs down the north stairs, kills all the guards, flips the flags and outpost getting the offensive tick. The DC group goes back up the stairs on the north side of Sejanus Outpost. The AD group runs down the south stairs and repeats the process.

Both factions are inside the keep, not attacking each other. If that's not exploiting (cheating in the ZOS ToS), then gaining 1000 temps in a day with the survey exploit and unlocking the maw skin/title/farming gear through an exploit is perfectly fine.

texassob

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I would say it depends on how it is being done. If two teams in different factions openly communicate, "hey I am gonna take this resource, then leave, so you can take it, and Ill be back in 5 minutes" then I would say you have a real issue. Proving that would be tough, but I think that is something that should be punishable in one way or another.

The interesting thing about the new scoring is that it promotes offense, and frankly does not reward defense. In the double AP week, there is a lot of keep and resource flipping going on.

Personally, we have been doing a lot of small man resource capturing behind enemy lines. They usually dont keep very long, so often we just flip it again. If we see enemies, we engage them. Is that AP boosting or farming or playing the game? The line gets blurry really fast. For example, we made a circle around Drake when AD had both Drake and BRK. We flipped each resource 2-3 times in the span of 15 minutes. Yes the AP was good, but it also was a big enough distraction for us to get BRK back. You could of certainly watched a bird's eye view of that whole thing and potentially thought we were just trading resources. I guess the point is, everyone sees collaboration between the other two factions, but often, it is just not there.

Here's a brief summary of what was happening at Sejanus Outpost in Thornblade on Xbox NA:

AD group owns the outpost, and stays on the south side of the top floor. The DC group runs down the north stairs, kills all the guards, flips the flags and outpost getting the offensive tick. The DC group goes back up the stairs on the north side of Sejanus Outpost. The AD group runs down the south stairs and repeats the process.

Both factions are inside the keep, not attacking each other. If that's not exploiting (cheating in the ZOS ToS), then gaining 1000 temps in a day with the survey exploit and unlocking the maw skin/title/farming gear through an exploit is perfectly fine.

100%

Jitterbug

To me it is cheating. But I'm not offended by it like I am by exploits or botting.

catalyst10e

If someone ties a rubber band to their controller, keeping them from getting kicked due to inactivity, can catch a ban for just staying online and collecting d ticks, I don't see why boosting wouldn't also be considered cheating/exploit.

It means that anyone who wants to get Emperor status HAS to be within the inner circle of these groups just to compete. Which in turn encourages this sort of behavior. "If they did it and got emp, and didnt get banned, I should do it too."
With the introduction to the overworld vendors, it can have an impact on the economy.

Bottom line is you're knowingly taking advantage of a mechanic. When people take advantage of something it gets policed or nerfed or altered which only hurts those who have been doing it legitimately.

DHale

bubbygink wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

The funny thing is though we were playing the objective, taking the keep in order to gain AP. Nothing was violated. The enemy forces were entrenched in a portion of the keep and our forces were stuck in a long stalemate of taking the keep back and forth. There, I just attached RP to our farming sessions. Be gone.

This sounds so ridiculous to me I can only hope you are intentionally being sarcastic to prove my point. "Oh it isn't boosting because we were role playing flipping the keep back and forth." Are you kidding me? If you are being serious then this is exactly what I am talking about: people are making up the most ridiculous things to justify their boosting. If your alliance and another alliance were just flipping a keep back and forth in tandem without fighting each other then you weren't "role playing," you were boosting.

DHale wrote: »

They are not going to comment. Ap boosting means different things to different people. To account for all the legitimate and illegitimate ways people get ap would take them weeks to figure out.

It is really not that hard: Intentionally colluding with players from another alliance to get AP without actually PvPing is boosting. Saying it is "too difficult to tell what is AP boosting" is yet another cop out excuse. There is absolutely no way that any rational person doesn't think AP boosting includes what we have already discussed (the flipping of keeps back and forth). This clearly is not fair play PvPing and, as I have said, you are lying to yourself if you say otherwise.

"AP farming" is not "AP boosting." No rational person thinks its boosting when blues take Sejanus or a resource and hold it for 5 hours to get D-ticks. It may not help the campaign much but they are still PvPing and fighting the enemy, ergo not boosting. It becomes boosting when you collude with the enemy to get a bunch of AP without actually PvPing. It is that simple. And what players have been doing with the keep flipping back and forth clearly qualifies as boosting.

How on earth could you know or more importantly prove someone colluded with anyone about anything? Evien if you could what could you do about it? The answer is nothing. Glad you got the NSA on this... maybe now they can do something more thier speed. BTW this has been happening for three years... tell me what has been done? Inquiring minds want to know.

bubbygink

DHale wrote: »

How on earth could you know or more importantly prove someone colluded with anyone about anything? Even if you could what could you do about it? The answer is nothing. Glad you got the NSA on this... maybe now they can do something at thier more thier speed. BTW this has been happening for three years... tell me what has been done? Inquiring minds want to know.

As I said above, there may be some cases where you can't prove it. Fine. But there are particularly egregious cases, like the ones I and @Ron_Burgundy_79 have described in this thread where it is clear there is collusion and cheating. I heard that in some cases this week the players were even saying in zone chat "hey stop killing the reds, we are working with them to flip this keep back and forth for AP." In these cases it is clear that those participating are cheating, they've literally confessed.

I agree with you that not much has been done thus far to combat boosting. And I think that is mostly because of your first point in that it is very tough to prove. ZoS doesn't want to ban somebody who didn't actually cheat. But we have never seen such obvious, and egregious boosting before. It is happening so out in the open now because of the added AP ticks to capturing objectives and because of the double AP - and it is happening so fast, people getting millions of AP a day. Before you didn't know if somebody actually just 1vXed 5 dudes on a resources or if they let him kill them on it for AP - and it was certainly not possible to get these levels of AP. But it is beyond obvious that players are colluding when they are flipping the keeps back in forth in the manners described in this thread and making millions of AP a day from doing it. This level of obvious cheating/boosting is unprecedented so hopefully something will be done by ZoS.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

This is cheating plain and simple if this keeps up they will start swinging that big nerf hammer. Remember when being a former emperor actually gave you something. We all know where this will end.

Think of if the move the amount of exp needed to get a new rank back up or move Vigor back down the list. Locking a power you already unlocked. Don't think it will happen look at the now poison arrow the power every Archer used moves from first unlock to last. So they have did this before.

S1ipperyJim

RavenRoxie wrote: »

I don't see it as cheating. And really, there is no proper way to police it anyway. I will say it IS corny af though. -.-

It is cheating. It is a classic exploit called boosting.

Boosting is defined as: "Any user who colludes with another user to exploit the game for the purpose of gaining XP, game score, or in-game unlock"


The definition of collusion: "secret agreement or cooperation especially for an illegal or deceitful purpose"


Boosting is a bannable offence in every PVP game that I know of. It directly goes against the ToS for ESO "taking advantage of exploits or cheats ".

And if players can detect it then you can police it.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

Football/Soccer, a sport everyone is familiar with. If both teams were to negotiate with each other before the game to pre determine a forced outcome 'winner' to benefit themselves financially it would be considered a scandal.

Excellent example. 1982 soccer world cup. A rare scoring situation occurred in the pool matches, which ended up both teams being interested in scoring 0-0 in the last encounter. The players pretended to play a bit... not much... for 90 minutes. And yes, there was a scandal, and many officials discussing the whole thing. There was no way they could blame the players; and I think they changed some scoring rules so that it doesn't happen again.

In Cyrodiil we CAN fight player characters of opposite factions, nowhere does it say that we must. As someone who often does the town dailies, I often come across "enemy" players doing the same and we play emotes to show that we have no intention to fight. It's social, nice and fun. That's not cheating. Getting "organized" beyond the colors to farm AP isn't cheating. It's.. playing the game to everyone's best interest. If all players' best interest in any given circumstance is to NOT fight each other in a game that is centered around fighting each other, then there's a design issue, but it's not the players' fault.

catalyst10e

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

Football/Soccer, a sport everyone is familiar with. If both teams were to negotiate with each other before the game to pre determine a forced outcome 'winner' to benefit themselves financially it would be considered a scandal.

Excellent example. 1982 soccer world cup. A rare scoring situation occurred in the pool matches, which ended up both teams being interested in scoring 0-0 in the last encounter. The players pretended to play a bit... not much... for 90 minutes. And yes, there was a scandal, and many officials discussing the whole thing. There was no way they could blame the players; and I think they changed some scoring rules so that it doesn't happen again.

In Cyrodiil we CAN fight player characters of opposite factions, nowhere does it say that we must. As someone who often does the town dailies, I often come across "enemy" players doing the same and we play emotes to show that we have no intention to fight. It's social, nice and fun. That's not cheating. Getting "organized" beyond the colors to farm AP isn't cheating. It's.. playing the game to everyone's best interest. If all players' best interest in any given circumstance is to NOT fight each other in a game that is centered around fighting each other, then there's a design issue, but it's not the players' fault.

The difference between seeing someone in bruma, waving, and not attacking each other isn't even in the list of examples. No one is saying everyone in PVP HAS to fight each other. But to organize a way to exploit what should be an in-game reward system is not anywhere near the same thing as just "not fighting" someone in a town. That's not in "everyone's" best interests, it's just your own. As I had previously stated, such conduct makes it that much harder to get on leaderboards and get a weekly/monthly reward, it makes it that much harder to get an emperorship, and worst of all it promotes a "can't beat them, join them" attitude. If I want to get top leaderboard scores, I've gotta start making friends in the other factions so we can boost each other and get gold items to sell. Those prizes are then being taken from the players who were playing the "inteded" way, and in a sense being punished for NOT exploiting.

anitajoneb17_ESO

catalyst10e wrote: »

The difference between seeing someone in bruma, waving, and not attacking each other isn't even in the list of examples. No one is saying everyone in PVP HAS to fight each other. But to organize a way to exploit what should be an in-game reward system is not anywhere near the same thing as just "not fighting" someone in a town. That's not in "everyone's" best interests, it's just your own. As I had previously stated, such conduct makes it that much harder to get on leaderboards and get a weekly/monthly reward, it makes it that much harder to get an emperorship, and worst of all it promotes a "can't beat them, join them" attitude. If I want to get top leaderboard scores, I've gotta start making friends in the other factions so we can boost each other and get gold items to sell. Those prizes are then being taken from the players who were playing the "inteded" way, and in a sense being punished for NOT exploiting.

Yeah I understand - I wasn't thinking from a leaderboard point of view and didn't realize that it kinda forced everyone competing for leaderboards to play that way too.
Surely ZOS should do something about it - and probably will.

But my demonstration was more about the players not being bannable or punishable for organised outpost flipping. I didn't mean that it should remain that way - obviously it's not how it should work.

Edit : Didn't ZOS mention somewhere that leaderboards were disabled anyway during the double AP / No CP week ?

catalyst10e

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

The difference between seeing someone in bruma, waving, and not attacking each other isn't even in the list of examples. No one is saying everyone in PVP HAS to fight each other. But to organize a way to exploit what should be an in-game reward system is not anywhere near the same thing as just "not fighting" someone in a town. That's not in "everyone's" best interests, it's just your own. As I had previously stated, such conduct makes it that much harder to get on leaderboards and get a weekly/monthly reward, it makes it that much harder to get an emperorship, and worst of all it promotes a "can't beat them, join them" attitude. If I want to get top leaderboard scores, I've gotta start making friends in the other factions so we can boost each other and get gold items to sell. Those prizes are then being taken from the players who were playing the "inteded" way, and in a sense being punished for NOT exploiting.

Yeah I understand - I wasn't thinking from a leaderboard point of view and didn't realize that it kinda forced everyone competing for leaderboards to play that way too.
Surely ZOS should do something about it - and probably will.

But my demonstration was more about the players not being bannable or punishable for organised outpost flipping. I didn't mean that it should remain that way - obviously it's not how it should work.

Edit : Didn't ZOS mention somewhere that leaderboards were disabled anyway during the double AP / No CP week ?

They did disable it for the stress test but this has been a persistent problem for a long time now. More recently with the stress test it can effect the overworld vendors and the economy as a whole. They'll have enough AP to buy tons of those set pieces and flood the market. As a whole, what they're doing is ethically wrong, even if someone tries to plead ignorance on it. The really sad part is the people who were more recently caught on video doing it, were actually pretty good players, they wouldnt need to boost to get good AP they could have done it through normal play and been fine.

xeNNNNN

TequilaFire wrote: »

Is XP boosting like farming mob pulls cheating?
AP boosting by taking turns killing each other or flipping objectives by agreement is definitely cheesy and borderline.

considering flipping objectives counts towards the scoring Id say it crosses the line a bit. (it can be used to gain points at a certain time)

considering im in a campaign where EP hilariously never wins and not from a lack of trying, its just usually 2v1 never 1v1v1.

zaria

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I would say it depends on how it is being done. If two teams in different factions openly communicate, "hey I am gonna take this resource, then leave, so you can take it, and Ill be back in 5 minutes" then I would say you have a real issue. Proving that would be tough, but I think that is something that should be punishable in one way or another.

The interesting thing about the new scoring is that it promotes offense, and frankly does not reward defense. In the double AP week, there is a lot of keep and resource flipping going on.

Personally, we have been doing a lot of small man resource capturing behind enemy lines. They usually dont keep very long, so often we just flip it again. If we see enemies, we engage them. Is that AP boosting or farming or playing the game? The line gets blurry really fast. For example, we made a circle around Drake when AD had both Drake and BRK. We flipped each resource 2-3 times in the span of 15 minutes. Yes the AP was good, but it also was a big enough distraction for us to get BRK back. You could of certainly watched a bird's eye view of that whole thing and potentially thought we were just trading resources. I guess the point is, everyone sees collaboration between the other two factions, but often, it is just not there.

Yes we did the same back then we had veteran rank, perfect for an 6-8 man group. if we was fewer we ganked the runners to the front lines, more and we went for keeps.
Lots of the current switching is however pretty obvious, one side wait 60 meter away then they switch.
Guess much of it is primarily PvE focused guilds with lots of members from various alliances seeing it as more effective than grinding public dungeons or dolmens.

SneaK

I think it's 100% cheating, and super lame. ZOS set this whole thing up though, they should have listened to the complaints about the Homestead flip ticks in the first place. Instead, they doubled them. LMAO.

They won't do anything about it, people have been clipped trading kills/flip ticks/repairs at resources for years, sent/reported, nothing ever happens. We have Palatine DK's out there with 15K kills. AP/Rank has always been a joke.

All you can do is remember who they are, and disrespect them by bagging them every time you see them laying on the ground.