Is AP Boosting Cheating?

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I would say it depends on how it is being done. If two teams in different factions openly communicate, "hey I am gonna take this resource, then leave, so you can take it, and Ill be back in 5 minutes" then I would say you have a real issue. Proving that would be tough, but I think that is something that should be punishable in one way or another.

The interesting thing about the new scoring is that it promotes offense, and frankly does not reward defense. In the double AP week, there is a lot of keep and resource flipping going on.

Personally, we have been doing a lot of small man resource capturing behind enemy lines. They usually dont keep very long, so often we just flip it again. If we see enemies, we engage them. Is that AP boosting or farming or playing the game? The line gets blurry really fast. For example, we made a circle around Drake when AD had both Drake and BRK. We flipped each resource 2-3 times in the span of 15 minutes. Yes the AP was good, but it also was a big enough distraction for us to get BRK back. You could of certainly watched a bird's eye view of that whole thing and potentially thought we were just trading resources. I guess the point is, everyone sees collaboration between the other two factions, but often, it is just not there.

Here's a brief summary of what was happening at Sejanus Outpost in Thornblade on Xbox NA:

AD group owns the outpost, and stays on the south side of the top floor. The DC group runs down the north stairs, kills all the guards, flips the flags and outpost getting the offensive tick. The DC group goes back up the stairs on the north side of Sejanus Outpost. The AD group runs down the south stairs and repeats the process.

Both factions are inside the keep, not attacking each other. If that's not exploiting (cheating in the ZOS ToS), then gaining 1000 temps in a day with the survey exploit and unlocking the maw skin/title/farming gear through an exploit is perfectly fine.

Haha. Okay. THAT is definitely exploiting.

geonsocal

interesting discussion...lots of words - lots of words...

was soloing the other night and ran into an AvAvA scenario wherein a total of about 60 to 80 players spread over all three factions were taking turns flipping the flag at aleswell farm...seen the same thing happen the last couple of nights but haven't participated in that fight...

the fighting felt a little "manufactured", like the bridge or old arena district in IC, but it was also a lot of fun...at one point made 23k flipping the flag...

was that AP boosting - yes...but - definitely not "cheating"...

some good examples here though of folks exploiting...

not really sure though how they are hurting or taking advantage of others...seems real silly (like the sejanus example above), but are they actually gaining any advantage in the alliance war - i don't really see that...

maxjapank

geonsocal wrote: »

interesting discussion...lots of words - lots of words...

was soloing the other night and ran into an AvAvA scenario wherein a total of about 60 to 80 players spread over all three factions were taking turns flipping the flag at aleswell farm...seen the same thing happen the last couple of nights but haven't participated in that fight...

the fighting felt a little "manufactured", like the bridge or old arena district in IC, but it was also a lot of fun...at one point made 23k flipping the flag...

was that AP boosting - yes...but - definitely not "cheating"...

some good examples here though of folks exploiting...

not really sure though how they are hurting or taking advantage of others...seems real silly (like the sejanus example above), but are they actually gaining any advantage in the alliance war - i don't really see that...

If you made 23k flipping the flag, then you were fighting for it. Fighting is intended in pvp / Cryodill. Not fighting and just trading flags for AP gain is not intended. Read post #16 for more insight.

geonsocal

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

Cheat

1 [no object] Act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.


1.1[with object] Gain an advantage over or deprive of something by using unfair or deceitful methods; defraud.

PvP in this game is inherently objective based, whether you play objectives or not in PvP that is its core system. It revolves mainly around 3 systems and 3 Alliances (Teams); (1) Score with multiple attributing factors related to objectives (2) Leaderboards, a system that revolves around AP aka Emperorship as well as contributing to your end campaign rewards and (3) AvA Ranks The 'reward' system for PvP made apparent by; sense of progression, skill points/ achievements, titles and symbols etc.

The 3 systems intertwine with each other to form Cyrodiil PvP. The leaderboard system encourages players to PvP to gain AP to position themselves onto the leaderboards in order to obtain Emperorship, which then spills into the score/objective based system of obtaining AP via capture/defences as well as capturing the 6 Emperor keeps to become Emperor, with all actions contributing to AvA ranks.

That is PvP at its core and as 'designed' since I see this word being thrown around a lot.

Now I know as well as most that the system has gotten stale over the years and that a lot of players (myself included) no longer play objective PvP and therefore care little for the systems in place, but this isn't the case for everyone, new players especially. This is how PvP is designed to be played and whether you play objectives or not you're merely playing around these systems and what is happening on the map to orientate your PvP.

Recently however there have been numerical changes, designed to encourage people to play Cyrodiil as designed by the development team in increasing the AP gains from 'objectives' to compliment all systems. To encourage more objective based PvP by feeding directly into the rewards (3).

However because of this select individuals have congregated on multiple Alliances to manipulate this change to significantly increase their AP gains aka boosting, something that is frowned upon in next to all PvP orientated games.

Many claim they are simply reaping the benefits of a flawed system, but by definition this is false. The problem itself isn't the numerical changes to AP (yes they are high/ considered too much making the AvA reward system redundant potentially as well as the recent changes for AP: Gold with the new overland bags). The abuse/manipulation and by definition cheating comes from the dishonest and unfair gameplay from trading kills with 'enemy players'. To be in agreement with the opposing Alliance (Team) to give each other AP aka significant advantages over those who are playing honestly.

An example of this is how doing so affects leaderboards and Emperorship. How it spoils the designed reward system of PvP. Something that is clearly being stressed by many in game and on the forums. It also for the PvE players coming to leech for Achievements is a dishonest means of obtaining those and as well as it's a dishonest means of making gold currently in ESO which then affects economy also (although is less an issue).

People such as @Vaoh here, no disrespect can have their views, but by definition it is cheating. I am shocked so many of the community defend this or even question it to the point they feel they need clarification from ZOS. Although I do feel we should receive it in light of all this @ZOS_BrianWheeler.

But simply put it should be obvious in an environment with systems mentioned above as to how they were designed where you are purposely negotiating with other 'teams' to behave in such a manipulative way to abuse the rewarding system then claim to be simply playing as intended is outright deceitful and unethical, also traits also associated with cheating.

To put it into perspective. Football/Soccer, a sport everyone is familiar with. If both teams were to negotiate with each other before the game to pre determine a forced outcome 'winner' to benefit themselves financially it would be considered a scandal. It's not so different here. Difference being the financial aid/reward is the AP with the winners being both parties who willingly participated in the agreement. This would in directly affect the integrity of the club, in this case the game rep for PvP. One that is already dire and it also affects the third party the other clubs, in this case say those who do not partake, as in they do not reap any benefits, but have been deceived and suffer for it (leaderboard positions etc)

I am sorry but I don't see how it isn't cheating, despite all the discussed work arounds and loop holes at its core it is cheating through and through.

okay, in all honesty - i didn't read through this whole post the first time - lots of words, sometimes a more terse, concise summary may be best for folks reading on their phone - funny meme's help too...

you are right though @maxjapank...grumble & grunt (see how i was able to shorten that )...has an excellent, and from what i can tell - accurate point...

to that point - i add this:

Grumble_and_Grunt

geonsocal wrote: »

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

Cheat

1 [no object] Act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.


1.1[with object] Gain an advantage over or deprive of something by using unfair or deceitful methods; defraud.

PvP in this game is inherently objective based, whether you play objectives or not in PvP that is its core system. It revolves mainly around 3 systems and 3 Alliances (Teams); (1) Score with multiple attributing factors related to objectives (2) Leaderboards, a system that revolves around AP aka Emperorship as well as contributing to your end campaign rewards and (3) AvA Ranks The 'reward' system for PvP made apparent by; sense of progression, skill points/ achievements, titles and symbols etc.

The 3 systems intertwine with each other to form Cyrodiil PvP. The leaderboard system encourages players to PvP to gain AP to position themselves onto the leaderboards in order to obtain Emperorship, which then spills into the score/objective based system of obtaining AP via capture/defences as well as capturing the 6 Emperor keeps to become Emperor, with all actions contributing to AvA ranks.

That is PvP at its core and as 'designed' since I see this word being thrown around a lot.

Now I know as well as most that the system has gotten stale over the years and that a lot of players (myself included) no longer play objective PvP and therefore care little for the systems in place, but this isn't the case for everyone, new players especially. This is how PvP is designed to be played and whether you play objectives or not you're merely playing around these systems and what is happening on the map to orientate your PvP.

Recently however there have been numerical changes, designed to encourage people to play Cyrodiil as designed by the development team in increasing the AP gains from 'objectives' to compliment all systems. To encourage more objective based PvP by feeding directly into the rewards (3).

However because of this select individuals have congregated on multiple Alliances to manipulate this change to significantly increase their AP gains aka boosting, something that is frowned upon in next to all PvP orientated games.

Many claim they are simply reaping the benefits of a flawed system, but by definition this is false. The problem itself isn't the numerical changes to AP (yes they are high/ considered too much making the AvA reward system redundant potentially as well as the recent changes for AP: Gold with the new overland bags). The abuse/manipulation and by definition cheating comes from the dishonest and unfair gameplay from trading kills with 'enemy players'. To be in agreement with the opposing Alliance (Team) to give each other AP aka significant advantages over those who are playing honestly.

An example of this is how doing so affects leaderboards and Emperorship. How it spoils the designed reward system of PvP. Something that is clearly being stressed by many in game and on the forums. It also for the PvE players coming to leech for Achievements is a dishonest means of obtaining those and as well as it's a dishonest means of making gold currently in ESO which then affects economy also (although is less an issue).

People such as @Vaoh here, no disrespect can have their views, but by definition it is cheating. I am shocked so many of the community defend this or even question it to the point they feel they need clarification from ZOS. Although I do feel we should receive it in light of all this @ZOS_BrianWheeler.

But simply put it should be obvious in an environment with systems mentioned above as to how they were designed where you are purposely negotiating with other 'teams' to behave in such a manipulative way to abuse the rewarding system then claim to be simply playing as intended is outright deceitful and unethical, also traits also associated with cheating.

To put it into perspective. Football/Soccer, a sport everyone is familiar with. If both teams were to negotiate with each other before the game to pre determine a forced outcome 'winner' to benefit themselves financially it would be considered a scandal. It's not so different here. Difference being the financial aid/reward is the AP with the winners being both parties who willingly participated in the agreement. This would in directly affect the integrity of the club, in this case the game rep for PvP. One that is already dire and it also affects the third party the other clubs, in this case say those who do not partake, as in they do not reap any benefits, but have been deceived and suffer for it (leaderboard positions etc)

I am sorry but I don't see how it isn't cheating, despite all the discussed work arounds and loop holes at its core it is cheating through and through.

okay, in all honesty - i didn't read through this whole post the first time - lots of words, sometimes a more terse, concise summary may be best for folks reading on their phone - funny meme's help too...

you are right though @maxjapank...grumble & grunt (see how i was able to shorten that )...has an excellent, and from what i can tell - accurate point...

to that point - i add this:

andreasranasen

zaria wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

You'd not only ban half of the already tiny PvP popluation - we would ban a ton of PvEers who jumped in for easy AP as well. All because it is "immoral" to farm AP this way.

We are seeing players who are playing the very mechanics of Keep/Respurce taking. If you capture it, you get AP. Simple. No bugs, exploits, hacks, cheats, or whatever are being used. The current system set in place is just very badly implemented. A simple 5-10min cooldown on the AP ticks would've solved the issue.

Of course this is not moral..... but it still is not something to ban people over. That'd be ridiculous tbh.

Imagine this situation - if a token system was implemented for Maw of Lorkhaj, and the first boss purposely gave quadruple the tokens than other bosses on release. Terrible design which is easily farmable (as we see in PvP right now). Now players start farming this boss. The Devs announce they have the intention of significantly reducing the token drop rate or setting a cooldown on the boss token timer.

Should the players who gained their loot much faster by running Maw with this terrible token design get banned? I'd think not.

This is how I see it at least I hate the situation in Cyrodiil right now, but banning people seems crazy for not breaking anything, exploiting, cheating, etc. It sucks but it is very much fair play devoid of cheats imo. Just terrible design which will be resolved in less than a week according to ZOS.

How is the AP boosting any different than exploiting a bug to get the vmol skin? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't ZOS come out and say it was an exploit and exploiters would be punished?

For the record, I don't have the vmol skin yet, and I'm not a grand overlord.

As I understand the vmol cheat let you kill the last boss, loot him and get the reward, however skin require you to kill all the bosses so its only relevant if team can kill the first three but not the final.

You are not required to kill all the bosses to get vmol skin.

lappas

They won't ban anyone since they would loose 80 percent of their most paying customers. I doubt anything will happen actually.

NetflixNChiill

With the changes made to pvp in the last patch was designed to decrease AP farming even tho A LOT of the high rank pvpers just camp resources and farm Alesia bridge i don't really have a problem with it! But if we're losing inner keeps and these "Elitists" don't come help I try to call em out in zone Lol

dmar613

Bravo zos, bravo.... claps* look what you have done =/

Vezuls

1. Reading through this thread is hilarious.
2. Comparing this to the VMoL exploit is honestly hilarious
First things first, running outside of the map and going in a corner where the main boss can not hit you, bypassing every enemy in the instance, was 100% not intended. However, the flipping keeps is an actual intended mechanic in the game. You cap a flag. You get the keep. You get AP
So, right there we see how the two are vastly different: One is doing something that breaks game mechanics for personal gain, and the other is use of game mechanics in a specific way for personal gain. I'd say immoral, but morality can depend on the person.
3. To answer the threads question, is this cheating? No, it isn't. Why? Because as I explained above, noone is doing anything that breaks the coding of the game. Noone is doing anything with cheat engine. Noone is in a glitched spot getting more AP than intended by some other means. Noone (doing this "cheat") is in a glitched spot killing people while they can not be hit themselves. It's groups working together to get AP.
4. Is it immoral? Well, that depends on who you ask. I may say yes, you may say no, and vice versa.
5. Is it an exploit? I honestly wouldn't even go that far. If ZoS came out and said, "Yo, this is not intended," then it'd be a different story. People are quick to use the word "exploit," but few realize the fine line between fair play and exploit (not saying this is either). To me, this is closely related to grinding IF ANYTHING. People have said grinding mobs is an exploit, when in reality it's just taking advantage of game mechanics (adds exp, number of adds, and spawn rate) in a smart way to level quickly in order to bypass the tedious questing. This is taking advantage of game mechanics (Keeps only being owned by one faction, when you take a keep you get AP, 2 groups to continually do this) in a smart way to gain AP quickly in order to bypass the tedious zergs/whatever PvPers do.

Vaoh

Vezuls wrote: »

1. Reading through this thread is hilarious.
2. Comparing this to the VMoL exploit is honestly hilarious
First things first, running outside of the map and going in a corner where the main boss can not hit you, bypassing every enemy in the instance, was 100% not intended. However, the flipping keeps is an actual intended mechanic in the game. You cap a flag. You get the keep. You get AP
So, right there we see how the two are vastly different: One is doing something that breaks game mechanics for personal gain, and the other is use of game mechanics in a specific way for personal gain. I'd say immoral, but morality can depend on the person.
3. To answer the threads question, is this cheating? No, it isn't. Why? Because as I explained above, noone is doing anything that breaks the coding of the game. Noone is doing anything with cheat engine. Noone is in a glitched spot getting more AP than intended by some other means. Noone (doing this "cheat") is in a glitched spot killing people while they can not be hit themselves. It's groups working together to get AP.
4. Is it immoral? Well, that depends on who you ask. I may say yes, you may say no, and vice versa.
5. Is it an exploit? I honestly wouldn't even go that far. If ZoS came out and said, "Yo, this is not intended," then it'd be a different story. People are quick to use the word "exploit," but few realize the fine line between fair play and exploit (not saying this is either). To me, this is closely related to grinding IF ANYTHING. People have said grinding mobs is an exploit, when in reality it's just taking advantage of game mechanics (adds exp, number of adds, and spawn rate) in a smart way to level quickly in order to bypass the tedious questing. This is taking advantage of game mechanics (Keeps only being owned by one faction, when you take a keep you get AP, 2 groups to continually do this) in a smart way to gain AP quickly in order to bypass the tedious zergs/whatever PvPers do.

^yep

Magic_Longsword

Vezuls wrote: »

1. Reading through this thread is hilarious.
2. Comparing this to the VMoL exploit is honestly hilarious
First things first, running outside of the map and going in a corner where the main boss can not hit you, bypassing every enemy in the instance, was 100% not intended. However, the flipping keeps is an actual intended mechanic in the game. You cap a flag. You get the keep. You get AP
So, right there we see how the two are vastly different: One is doing something that breaks game mechanics for personal gain, and the other is use of game mechanics in a specific way for personal gain. I'd say immoral, but morality can depend on the person.
3. To answer the threads question, is this cheating? No, it isn't. Why? Because as I explained above, noone is doing anything that breaks the coding of the game. Noone is doing anything with cheat engine. Noone is in a glitched spot getting more AP than intended by some other means. Noone (doing this "cheat") is in a glitched spot killing people while they can not be hit themselves. It's groups working together to get AP.
4. Is it immoral? Well, that depends on who you ask. I may say yes, you may say no, and vice versa.
5. Is it an exploit? I honestly wouldn't even go that far. If ZoS came out and said, "Yo, this is not intended," then it'd be a different story. People are quick to use the word "exploit," but few realize the fine line between fair play and exploit (not saying this is either). To me, this is closely related to grinding IF ANYTHING. People have said grinding mobs is an exploit, when in reality it's just taking advantage of game mechanics (adds exp, number of adds, and spawn rate) in a smart way to level quickly in order to bypass the tedious questing. This is taking advantage of game mechanics (Keeps only being owned by one faction, when you take a keep you get AP, 2 groups to continually do this) in a smart way to gain AP quickly in order to bypass the tedious zergs/whatever PvPers do.

While I completely agree with you, I think that people complaining about it are doing so not because of the flipping itself, after all I doubt roleplayers on a less-populated campaign are really that much of a nuisance, but more regarding the repercussions on the economy and the leaderboards.

When you go for emp, the intended and expected way to get it is to fight other players for the map, and work for the honor and glory of yourself, your family, and your alliance. In which case, the Bleakers flips do not qualify. (Now we know that it hasn't been the actual way people were getting emp, but when you see the outcry about the Legendary Sheyme video from 2015, where a somewhat infamous player on PC EU was being fed ticks at Roebeck lumber, surely you can understand why people are pissed about the outpost farming now. Note also that the player in question was then banned for currency trading, I think.)

Same goes for the rewards associated with the leaderboards. While their prices have drastically dropped over the resets, Rings of Vicious Death for instance can still get you at least 80k on PC EU, which for a pure PVPer with no income from grinding flowers or mobs or farming sets, isn't that bad.

Or the Akaviri motifs, who used to cost 100k gold for the 500k AP ones, and have now dropped to 60k or less. This is the depreciation of a currency that did bring actual PVPers at least some income (not to say that the people flipping Bleakers aren't PVPers, for most of the people I see there do play / raid / make YT gameplay footage and builds and what not, but w/e).
And now that the week is nearing it's end, who knows what impact it may have on the overland sets economy (see spinner swords, necropotence everything (since it's BiS for PVE now), spriggan daggers, sun etc.). I mean I got 15M AP since the start of the Bleakers "roleplay", and after buying a couple of Elder Scrolls, I'll open these boxes. And I know many people who will too.

While the Rakkhat bug, which was definitely an exploit, had no other consequences for others beyond cheapening the amount of efforts legit raids took to get it, which is a vague notion at best and has no real impact, the Bleakers farm drastically changes the workings of an entire market, which brings it in-line with the survey exploit regarding the effect on prices.

Most people seem to get outraged at the fact that "omg it took me months of raiding to get to Grand Overlord and these guys get it in a week. They so don't deserve to be a part of my elite GO club". I think they rather ought to get mad about things that matter more than their hurt arrogance and pride.

VodkaVixen1979

How much AP did you gain while you were at Sejanus watching all this happen? I saw you at the top of the outpost for several cycles, so I don't understand why you are now here calling for bans. I PVE and got just enough to get rally to heal my stam character and got out and you were still there when I left.

Magic_Longsword

VodkaVixen1979 wrote: »

How much AP did you gain while you were at Sejanus watching all this happen? I saw you at the top of the outpost for several cycles, so I don't understand why you are now here calling for bans. I PVE and got just enough to get rally to heal my stam character and got out and you were still there when I left.

Sounds like so many DC randoms in /zone, insulting you, your lineage, your parents, and everything you represent while hiding in trees in Bleakers tick range.
Those are the worst.

Katahdin

As much as I disagree with boosting/grinding, I dont believe it's bannable, nor should it be.

If AP boosting is made bannable, then XP/CP grinding should be too. There is no difference between them.

So we can have 70% of the playerbase banned.
That would really be great for the game.

bubbygink

Vezuls wrote: »

3. To answer the threads question, is this cheating? No, it isn't. Why? Because as I explained above, noone is doing anything that breaks the coding of the game. Noone is doing anything with cheat engine. Noone is in a glitched spot getting more AP than intended by some other means. Noone (doing this "cheat") is in a glitched spot killing people while they can not be hit themselves. It's groups working together to get AP.

Is joining a guild and emptying out their guild bank for personal gain cheating?

Doing so doesn't break the code of the game, utilize a cheat engine, or take advantage of a glitch. It's simply taking advantage of the game mechanics to get gold. Or as you say, "use of game mechanics in a specific way for personal gain." So by your definition this is clearly not cheating right? Or will you change your definition to fit your narrative that boosting is not cheating?

As I've said, so many people in this thread trying to come up with these detailed definitions of why boosting "technically" isn't cheating and I just think it's ridiculous.

Magic_Longsword

bubbygink wrote: »

Vezuls wrote: »

3. To answer the threads question, is this cheating? No, it isn't. Why? Because as I explained above, noone is doing anything that breaks the coding of the game. Noone is doing anything with cheat engine. Noone is in a glitched spot getting more AP than intended by some other means. Noone (doing this "cheat") is in a glitched spot killing people while they can not be hit themselves. It's groups working together to get AP.

Is joining a guild and emptying out their guild bank for personal gain cheating?

Doing so doesn't break the code of the game, utilize a cheat engine, or take advantage of a glitch. It's simply taking advantage of the game mechanics to get gold. Or as you say, "use of game mechanics in a specific way for personal gain." So by your definition this is clearly not cheating right? Or will you change your definition to fit your narrative that boosting is not cheating?

As I've said, so many people in this thread trying to come up with these detailed definitions of why boosting "technically" isn't cheating and I just think it's ridiculous.

Don't compare the incomparable. Emptying a guild bank DIRECTLY hurts other players. Flipping flags doesn't.

Katahdin

bubbygink wrote: »

Vezuls wrote: »

3. To answer the threads question, is this cheating? No, it isn't. Why? Because as I explained above, noone is doing anything that breaks the coding of the game. Noone is doing anything with cheat engine. Noone is in a glitched spot getting more AP than intended by some other means. Noone (doing this "cheat") is in a glitched spot killing people while they can not be hit themselves. It's groups working together to get AP.

Is joining a guild and emptying out their guild bank for personal gain cheating?

Doing so doesn't break the code of the game, utilize a cheat engine, or take advantage of a glitch. It's simply taking advantage of the game mechanics to get gold. Or as you say, "use of game mechanics in a specific way for personal gain." So by your definition this is clearly not cheating right? Or will you change your definition to fit your narrative that boosting is not cheating?

As I've said, so many people in this thread trying to come up with these detailed definitions of why boosting "technically" isn't cheating and I just think it's ridiculous.

No, joining a guild and stealing the guild bank is not cheating. They are not circumventing or altering anything in the game code to do it.

Is it a low, dirtbag move ? Absolutely.

Unfortunately some guilds are too trusting with their guild banks with new members.

Biro123

Definitely cheating - and I totally expect that Zos will be removing AP from those who have taken part..

Magic_Longsword

Biro123 wrote: »

Definitely cheating - and I totally expect that Zos will be removing AP from those who have taken part..

What about those that have already laundered their gains. *cue evil laughter*

psychotic13

They're not going to ban anyone, they'll lose over half of their customers if they do that, and well people call them Zo$ for a reason, they're more concerned with money and they're not going to ban a large portion of the community to lower income.

luen79rwb17_ESO

It's a flaw in game design, the system leads up to this result since it's the fastest way to gain a currency that otherwise is a huge grind.

Also it's a natural behavior to ally with adversaries for a greater good. Lol even ESO lore has alot of that like dunmer and argonians for example. But oh wait, this player-made alliance is "bad" because they saw it happen even though they knew it was going to happen (watch last ESO live). So they knew it, let it pass, and now ban people for it? Hmm...

Biro123

Magic_Longsword wrote: »

bubbygink wrote: »

Vezuls wrote: »

3. To answer the threads question, is this cheating? No, it isn't. Why? Because as I explained above, noone is doing anything that breaks the coding of the game. Noone is doing anything with cheat engine. Noone is in a glitched spot getting more AP than intended by some other means. Noone (doing this "cheat") is in a glitched spot killing people while they can not be hit themselves. It's groups working together to get AP.

Is joining a guild and emptying out their guild bank for personal gain cheating?

Doing so doesn't break the code of the game, utilize a cheat engine, or take advantage of a glitch. It's simply taking advantage of the game mechanics to get gold. Or as you say, "use of game mechanics in a specific way for personal gain." So by your definition this is clearly not cheating right? Or will you change your definition to fit your narrative that boosting is not cheating?

As I've said, so many people in this thread trying to come up with these detailed definitions of why boosting "technically" isn't cheating and I just think it's ridiculous.

Don't compare the incomparable. Emptying a guild bank DIRECTLY hurts other players. Flipping flags doesn't.

Yes it does. All these Grind-lovers out there just to swap flag-flips are taking up spaces on the server.. As a dedicated PVPer who is normally in Cyro every evening, I've hardly been able to play this week due to full servers. Where have all these people com from? Its obviously not the usual people who'd be playing then - its people who would otherwise be PVE'ing - there only for the double-AP. People who like easy-mode grinding for their virtual reward..which then lets them do their grinding that little bit more easily..

I mean, when I have managed to log in this week, I found out I was suddenly capable of 1vXing.. who knew!

bubbygink

Magic_Longsword wrote: »

Don't compare the incomparable. Emptying a guild bank DIRECTLY hurts other players. Flipping flags doesn't.

So for something to be cheating it has to "DIRECTLY" hurt other players?

Even if that is the case, boosting up AP does harm other players by preventing them from topping the leaderboards for Emperor or getting gold rewards for the worthy. Many people have been prevented from getting Emp because of boosters. This is absolutely a direct harm that players feel.

And that is ignoring the accomplishment aspect of it. While it may not literally and directly hurt a grand overlord's progress or anything, it is surely unfair that he or she played PvP and alliance war for thousands of hours to get the rank but some booster can just come along and sit AFK at keeps for a while and rank up in a jiffy without any effort. I'm not sure what aspect of the game you most enjoy or what you consider your greatest accomplishment to be in game, but wouldn't it hurt you if other players could achieve it by putting in absolutely no work and simply AFKing in the right spot? Maybe not, it is "just a game" after all but people have put some serious time into reaching achievements in game. Also, somebody will come along shortly and say "lol it takes no skill to hit GO you just got to zergball like crazy!" but the point is that it still takes a massive amount of time and dedication. And obviously getting a high alliance war rank means something, otherwise why would people be boosting up in the first place? So to me it is totally unfair that people have invested so much time into something and are having their accomplishments diminished by boosters (and this is coming from somebody who does not himself have a "high" alliance war rank).

Boosting also affects those who play the game for the purpose of alliance war. It takes the fun out of the campaign for a lot of people when most of the players in the campaign are just sitting there at one keep boosting. I, and probably most others, immediately leave a campaign if we see that its just full of boosters. I don't think anybody could deny that campaigns are much more fun when they are full of people actually Pvping than when they are full off a bunch of players AFKing at a keep and flipping the flags back and forth in tandem with an enemy alliance. I get that some would say farming also harms a campaign and to that I would say that farming is still Pvping - boosters are not, they provide no meaningful PvP.

Finally, what about the possible effects on the economy? All these boosters getting millions of AP for doing nothing but AFKing at keeps are going to be buying a lot of zone bags or akiviri motifs (somebody in this thread already has said they are boosting for the motifs, so people absolutely are doing this) and will be getting a lot of rewards for the worthy. This could deflate the prices of these items and harm those who farmed them or actually PvPed to get them. I, for example, pretty much only make money by selling rewards for the worthy and gold end of campaign rewards. If the prices for rewards for the worthy plummet and I can't get gold rewards because boosters keep me out of the top 2%, then I have certainly been harmed. I admit, this is a stretch and probably won't have a strongly noticeable effect but the point is that this boosting isn't something done in isolation. It DOES directly affect other players in certain ways.

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Also it's a natural behavior to ally with adversaries for a greater good. Lol even ESO lore has alot of that like dunmer and argonians for example.

Ah here is another attempt at justification I've never heard before: "Enemies ally in real life so boosting is ok!" Seriously? When you're pulling out ridiculous justifications like this maybe you should stop and think about whether your position is actually tenable.

catalyst10e

bubbygink wrote: »

Boosting also affects those who play the game for the purpose of alliance war. It takes the fun out of the campaign for a lot of people when most of the players in the campaign are just sitting there at one keep boosting. I, and probably most others, immediately leave a campaign if we see that its just full of boosters. I don't think anybody could deny that campaigns are much more fun when they are full of people actually Pvping than when they are full off a bunch of players AFKing at a keep and flipping the flags back and forth in tandem with an enemy alliance. I get that some would say farming also harms a campaign and to that I would say that farming is still Pvping - boosters are not, they provide no meaningful PvP.

^ This. PVP is the aspect of the game I most enjoy, and when you're out fighting the good fight, boosting can cause a resource or outpost appear in need of help, or cut off fast travel to a specific area. You may want to go and see if you can help only to get zerged down and then get t-bagged by your own alliance for playing the game the way it was intended. I'd say this directly impacts the players.

Alex_Lex

There is no PvP in this AP grinding.
No way It's PvP in any bit and it does not have any competition.

It's a cheat and its using should be punished

psychotic13

Just put a cap on total AP that can be gained per day, sorted.

Vaoh

psychotic13 wrote: »

Just put a cap on total AP that can be gained per day, sorted.

This would cause so many problems

Kodrac

It's win trading and against the spirit of competition. I'd expect them to get punished in some way. Maybe a short ban but not permanent.

Doxie

Kodrac wrote: »

It's win trading and against the spirit of competition. I'd expect them to get punished in some way. Maybe a short ban but not permanent.

Short ban and removal of all AP