Very Nice Interview with Brian Wheeler on Morrowind and Battlegrounds from MMORPG.com

RinaldoGandolphi

http://www.mmorpg.com/elder-scrolls-online/interviews/brian-wheeler-talks-pvp-in-morrowind-1000011585/page/2

One statement really stood out to me:

Q:MMORPG.com: What's going on in terms of server performance improvements? How's that stuff coming?

Brian: - Rich and I were out there almost every night. He's playing more on Azura Star and I'm playing more on Trueflame. So we can literally compare and contrast the two types of gameplay. The thing about Azura Star is no CP, so the skill set is a little bit different. You have to be much more wary of your resource pools. But in Trueflame, because it allows CP, you can just dump a bunch of points in Magician, so I mean that's the thing that not only we look at performance wise, but that's the thing Eric and his team look at, is that the game that we want? Do we want to have "unlimited" pools? It is nice, but what it does is it lends itself to fights that never stop, and a lot of people have commented that that gets tiresome, which is why in Battlegrounds, you've got nice, quick, 15 minute fights, so it's not that big of a worry.

This statement really gives me a lot of hope. The fact Rich and Brian are comparing notes between Azura and Trueflame, and the fact Rich, Eric, and Brian are all asking themselves if they really want a game of unlimited pools is promising. This is a good start IMO. They are at least beginning to maybe recognize there is a problem here. Will just have to wait and see what the future holds.

NightbladeMechanics

That last bit stands out to me. "Nice, quick 15 minute fights" in battlegrounds? Are they timed? How do you score teams if not everyone dies? Is this an average match duration from internal testing? Are battlegrounds being designed with CP restrictions?

All poignant questions that I'm interested in asking.

Grunim

Thanks for the link. I'll play with or without CP, I don't really care, I can adjust to either if it yields better performance.

IcyDeadPeople

Is it 15 minutes duration for 12 templars battling to the death in reactive, desert rose and malubeth?

Etaniel

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

That last bit stands out to me. "Nice, quick 15 minute fights" in battlegrounds? Are they timed? How do you score teams if not everyone dies? Is this an average match duration from internal testing? Are battlegrounds being designed with CP restrictions?

All poignant questions that I'm interested in asking.

If you read the full article, you'd have your answer : medals

Rickter

Insightful:

MMORPG.com: Are there any updates coming to Cyrodiil?

Brian: We're always doing tweaks. We just did the 1500 AP and 6000 AP thing, besides Blackwood Mine, which we fixed. To see if that changes player behavior, movement. We're looking at modifying their behaviors in terms of giving different rewards. Right now the 1500 AP and 6000 per keep thing, that is leading up to something we'll discuss when the time comes. But we didn't want to increase the values of those, because we wanted to have people try to spread out and try to take the objectives that are already there. A lot of feedback has been, "Give us more objectives to take." But you guys aren't taking the ones that are already there. And the feedback for that is that they're not worth anything. At that point, we said, "Let's make them the same value as a player kill." If it's a mine or a farm or a lumber mill, it's 1500 points, because a level 50 player is 1500 points. And you can take a mine solo. There is, of course, the timer for the thing to actually flip when you sit on a flag. We're looking at either adjusting that or looking at other values.

MMORPG.com: So people aren't trading.

Brian: Right. We know that that's going to occur, because of the path of least resistance to get AP, but on the other hand the question has been for a long time, "Why don't you make them worth more AP?" Well, now you know why! It's more of a matter of giving them what they want, but also showing and stating, "We know this is going to cause this behavior. But we are also prepared to do other changes to see how we can curb that behavior." Things like making, not necessarily things like making the flag flip slower, but if you notice when you flip a flag all the way, there's still a time delay before it actually flips. We may extend that wait period. We may add some form of non flip buff/debuff thing. There's always things when you're looking at to continually add to Cyrodiil or Imperial City.

Psilent

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

That last bit stands out to me. "Nice, quick 15 minute fights" in battlegrounds? Are they timed? How do you score teams if not everyone dies? Is this an average match duration from internal testing? Are battlegrounds being designed with CP restrictions?

All poignant questions that I'm interested in asking.

I believe one of the battlegrounds is capture the flag. So it's probably setup with a 15 minute timer and whichever team gets the most flag caps wins or whoever captures it first wins or whoever captures it 3 times wins. If none of those are reached than at the end of 15 mins it's over.

So it would be possible to tie.

Rickter

Eeep. . . notice there is no mention of Haderus??

MMORPG.com: What about something like unlocking a world boss for your faction?

Brian: There's that. There's a possibility of adding a Murderball out there. So, there's things that we can add, that we're still going through the phases of design reviews. The Cyrodiil experience that we have is pretty good. When you play in an active Trueflame, or an active Azura's, or an active Blackwater Blade, it's hoppin'. People stay there a lot. It's one of the key stats about ESO. When a lot of people get into PvP, they love it. They just stay in there.

Minno

Thanks Rin!

I do wish to see battlegrounds have a 30 minute duration roughly. I'm worried there might be a 20 minute que similar to the dungeon finder que .

Minno

And I hope this doesn't harm PvE at all. The beauty of nCP weekend was many players came out and loved that they didn't have to swap their PvE CP settings (aside from being able to play fun fights without finding an OP toon).

Don't want zos nerfing just the Magician CP star lol.

Lexxypwns

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

That last bit stands out to me. "Nice, quick 15 minute fights" in battlegrounds? Are they timed? How do you score teams if not everyone dies? Is this an average match duration from internal testing? Are battlegrounds being designed with CP restrictions?

All poignant questions that I'm interested in asking.

You time a match, allow for untimed overtime if objectives are being contested, such as a flag being carried or a point being captured, and take the best performance. Then, you can't just run out clock you still have to win a team fight. That's how overwatch handles timed matches and I think its pretty great, there's opportunities for exploitation(lucio wallriding the package, anyone?), but if they balance their game then we won't have things like unkillable tanks and they won't be needed because there's no 1 shot bursting happening.

Minno

Lexxypwns wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

That last bit stands out to me. "Nice, quick 15 minute fights" in battlegrounds? Are they timed? How do you score teams if not everyone dies? Is this an average match duration from internal testing? Are battlegrounds being designed with CP restrictions?

All poignant questions that I'm interested in asking.

You time a match, allow for untimed overtime if objectives are being contested and take the best performance. This should prevent teams stacking too much tankiness or healing over effective damage and stop people playing to not lose instead of playing to win.

This is a good discussion. I like that aspect of the time limit to force players to make a move.
Edit:
Just read the article fully. They have additional info on the BG's.

NightbladeMechanics

Etaniel wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

That last bit stands out to me. "Nice, quick 15 minute fights" in battlegrounds? Are they timed? How do you score teams if not everyone dies? Is this an average match duration from internal testing? Are battlegrounds being designed with CP restrictions?

All poignant questions that I'm interested in asking.

If you read the full article, you'd have your answer : medals

Can't read it until I leave work.

NightbladeMechanics

Rickter wrote: »

Insightful:

MMORPG.com: Are there any updates coming to Cyrodiil?

Brian: We're always doing tweaks. We just did the 1500 AP and 6000 AP thing, besides Blackwood Mine, which we fixed. To see if that changes player behavior, movement. We're looking at modifying their behaviors in terms of giving different rewards. Right now the 1500 AP and 6000 per keep thing, that is leading up to something we'll discuss when the time comes. But we didn't want to increase the values of those, because we wanted to have people try to spread out and try to take the objectives that are already there. A lot of feedback has been, "Give us more objectives to take." But you guys aren't taking the ones that are already there. And the feedback for that is that they're not worth anything. At that point, we said, "Let's make them the same value as a player kill." If it's a mine or a farm or a lumber mill, it's 1500 points, because a level 50 player is 1500 points. And you can take a mine solo. There is, of course, the timer for the thing to actually flip when you sit on a flag. We're looking at either adjusting that or looking at other values.

MMORPG.com: So people aren't trading.

Brian: Right. We know that that's going to occur, because of the path of least resistance to get AP, but on the other hand the question has been for a long time, "Why don't you make them worth more AP?" Well, now you know why! It's more of a matter of giving them what they want, but also showing and stating, "We know this is going to cause this behavior. But we are also prepared to do other changes to see how we can curb that behavior." Things like making, not necessarily things like making the flag flip slower, but if you notice when you flip a flag all the way, there's still a time delay before it actually flips. We may extend that wait period. We may add some form of non flip buff/debuff thing. There's always things when you're looking at to continually add to Cyrodiil or Imperial City.

The increased keep and resource AP values are "leading up to something [else they'll] discuss when the time comes."

This jumps out at me. I wonder if he's talking about new objectives on the map.

Joy_Division

Brian:A lot of feedback has been, "Give us more objectives to take." But you guys aren't taking the ones that are already there. And the feedback for that is that they're not worth anything. At that point, we said, "Let's make them the same value as a player kill." If it's a mine or a farm or a lumber mill, it's 1500 points, because a level 50 player is 1500 points.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler Hi! This is why I am not to excited about taking the objectives already there.

Fruitdog

Brian:A lot of feedback has been, "Give us more objectives to take." But you guys aren't taking the ones that are already there. And the feedback for that is that they're not worth anything. At that point, we said, "Let's make them the same value as a player kill." If it's a mine or a farm or a lumber mill, it's 1500 points, because a level 50 player is 1500 points.

Here is some feedback Brian. If 20 people kill 1 dude they all don't get 1500ap so why would you give everyone 1500 if they take a resource? ZOS logic.

DHale

I don't and won't play a game that makes me less powerful over time. I have earned each and every one of my cp. No one has unlimited pools of stam or magic people run out in dungeons, trials and pvp. Managing your resources is a skill no different than other aspects of the game. Casuals want to be able to compete with people who have played a long time. They can't and never will. I kill people on the no cp campaigns so much easier than on cp campaigns. This game takes a long time to master but I will never be as good as the elite players. People run the meta builds of many of the elite players but they get shrecked quickly. Why? Because they are just not that good, the time and practice is what makes you good.

I didn't ask for cp and I did not think the veteran levels were bad but now they are weaved into the game. When I que into a dungeon I am there to get a certain piece of gear or a helm or a key. I am not there to spend two hours getting one shotted by lazy mechanics on dungeons I soloed before.

Rickter

I really liked the idea of a faction "unlocking" a roaming world boss when certain objectives are met. how that would be implemented and what its intended purpose is, idk, but it sounded cool

NBrookus

Minno wrote: »

Thanks Rin!

I do wish to see battlegrounds have a 30 minute duration roughly. I'm worried there might be a 20 minute que similar to the dungeon finder que .

30 minutes is pretty long for a single high-intensity battle. Even emp keep fights tend to have ebb and flow where you have mini breaks. 15 sounds pretty good for a start -- and they can always make duration part of future battleground scenarios.

Derra

Am i the only one concerned that in nonCP you still have unlimited pools the only difference being that everyone has to wear the same 3 itemsets?

Cinbri

Derra wrote: »

Am i the only one concerned that in nonCP you still have unlimited pools the only difference being that everyone has to wear the same 3 itemsets?

There is also more problems on no-cp: CPs promoting small-scale more for some classes (like Shadow Ward for dk/templar). Or insta-gib builds exists too, and if you can insta-gib enemy and run away you just don't need to think about your sustain.
No-CP is not better nor worse than CP, it just different. Personaly, I like to play on both coz pvp feels less boring when you play with different rules.

Derra

Cinbri wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Am i the only one concerned that in nonCP you still have unlimited pools the only difference being that everyone has to wear the same 3 itemsets?

There is also more problems on no-cp: CPs promoting small-scale more for some classes (like Shadow Ward for dk/templar). Or insta-gib builds exists too, and if you can insta-gib enemy and run away you just don't need to think about your sustain.
No-CP is not better nor worse than CP, it just different. Personaly, I like to play on both coz pvp feels less boring when you play with different rules.

I solo about 30 to 50% of my playtime.

Soloing on nonCP without utilizing stealth has to be the most miserable gameplayexperience i´ve made in eso so far.

As a result i´m eagerly awaiting this events end.

frozywozy

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

That last bit stands out to me. "Nice, quick 15 minute fights" in battlegrounds? Are they timed? How do you score teams if not everyone dies? Is this an average match duration from internal testing? Are battlegrounds being designed with CP restrictions?

All poignant questions that I'm interested in asking.

I'm glad there is a time limit. Because otherwise, people would go in there with tanks using guard and nobody would ever die. With a timer, and hopefuly a system based on the amount of damage done in case it reaches the time limit, it will force people to spec with damage.

Minno

NBrookus wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Thanks Rin!

I do wish to see battlegrounds have a 30 minute duration roughly. I'm worried there might be a 20 minute que similar to the dungeon finder que .

30 minutes is pretty long for a single high-intensity battle. Even emp keep fights tend to have ebb and flow where you have mini breaks. 15 sounds pretty good for a start -- and they can always make duration part of future battleground scenarios.

I only mentioned that for if there is a random que and if that que exceeds the game duration. From the article is sounded like it was more or less instant so I'm OK with that 15 min duration.

frozywozy

Derra wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Am i the only one concerned that in nonCP you still have unlimited pools the only difference being that everyone has to wear the same 3 itemsets?

There is also more problems on no-cp: CPs promoting small-scale more for some classes (like Shadow Ward for dk/templar). Or insta-gib builds exists too, and if you can insta-gib enemy and run away you just don't need to think about your sustain.
No-CP is not better nor worse than CP, it just different. Personaly, I like to play on both coz pvp feels less boring when you play with different rules.

I solo about 30 to 50% of my playtime.

Soloing on nonCP without utilizing stealth has to be the most miserable gameplayexperience i´ve made in eso so far.

As a result i´m eagerly awaiting this events end.

I have to agree. As much as NoCP group play has been really enjoyable for me, soloing in noCP without streak or cloak or shadow image is nearly impossible in most scenarios.

NBrookus

Minno wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Thanks Rin!

I do wish to see battlegrounds have a 30 minute duration roughly. I'm worried there might be a 20 minute que similar to the dungeon finder que .

30 minutes is pretty long for a single high-intensity battle. Even emp keep fights tend to have ebb and flow where you have mini breaks. 15 sounds pretty good for a start -- and they can always make duration part of future battleground scenarios.

I only mentioned that for if there is a random que and if that que exceeds the game duration. From the article is sounded like it was more or less instant so I'm OK with that 15 min duration.

Well, it remains to be seen what the queues are like. Since it's not assigning people based on role, hopefully it won't have the issues the dungeon finder does.

It will also be interesting to see if this prompts more people to have alternate specs so they can form more functional groups on the fly.

Minno

NBrookus wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Thanks Rin!

I do wish to see battlegrounds have a 30 minute duration roughly. I'm worried there might be a 20 minute que similar to the dungeon finder que .

30 minutes is pretty long for a single high-intensity battle. Even emp keep fights tend to have ebb and flow where you have mini breaks. 15 sounds pretty good for a start -- and they can always make duration part of future battleground scenarios.

I only mentioned that for if there is a random que and if that que exceeds the game duration. From the article is sounded like it was more or less instant so I'm OK with that 15 min duration.

Well, it remains to be seen what the queues are like. Since it's not assigning people based on role, hopefully it won't have the issues the dungeon finder does.

It will also be interesting to see if this prompts more people to have alternate specs so they can form more functional groups on the fly.

Yea it's that level of detail from the devs that makes me OK with the current duration. The classes would be objective (based on players in the BG over prior) and that alone has potential to reduce the que waits significantly.

We will wait and see, just in case lol.

NightbladeMechanics

frozywozy wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

That last bit stands out to me. "Nice, quick 15 minute fights" in battlegrounds? Are they timed? How do you score teams if not everyone dies? Is this an average match duration from internal testing? Are battlegrounds being designed with CP restrictions?

All poignant questions that I'm interested in asking.

I'm glad there is a time limit. Because otherwise, people would go in there with tanks using guard and nobody would ever die. With a timer, and hopefuly a system based on the amount of damage done in case it reaches the time limit, it will force people to spec with damage.

Exactly.

frozywozy wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Am i the only one concerned that in nonCP you still have unlimited pools the only difference being that everyone has to wear the same 3 itemsets?

There is also more problems on no-cp: CPs promoting small-scale more for some classes (like Shadow Ward for dk/templar). Or insta-gib builds exists too, and if you can insta-gib enemy and run away you just don't need to think about your sustain.
No-CP is not better nor worse than CP, it just different. Personaly, I like to play on both coz pvp feels less boring when you play with different rules.

I solo about 30 to 50% of my playtime.

Soloing on nonCP without utilizing stealth has to be the most miserable gameplayexperience i´ve made in eso so far.

As a result i´m eagerly awaiting this events end.

I have to agree. As much as NoCP group play has been really enjoyable for me, soloing in noCP without streak or cloak or shadow image is nearly impossible in most scenarios.

Soloing is miserable without cp, but group fights have been fun. I await the return of cp to pvp for the sake of build diversity, and I even moreso await with crossed fingers some kind of rework to the cp system.

Honestly what if they just did away with any cp passives that might be creating a bunch of calculations, and then lower the cp cap to something like 300-400?

Cinbri

Derra wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Am i the only one concerned that in nonCP you still have unlimited pools the only difference being that everyone has to wear the same 3 itemsets?

There is also more problems on no-cp: CPs promoting small-scale more for some classes (like Shadow Ward for dk/templar). Or insta-gib builds exists too, and if you can insta-gib enemy and run away you just don't need to think about your sustain.
No-CP is not better nor worse than CP, it just different. Personaly, I like to play on both coz pvp feels less boring when you play with different rules.

I solo about 30 to 50% of my playtime.

Soloing on nonCP without utilizing stealth has to be the most miserable gameplayexperience i´ve made in eso so far.

As a result i´m eagerly awaiting this events end.

That what I talking about. Removing CP won't make PvP any better, it will make it just different, in some cases better(lags), in some cases worse (require of complete rebalance).

Magic_Longsword

Rickter wrote: »

Insightful:
MMORPG.com: Are there any updates coming to Cyrodiil?
Brian: We're always doing tweaks. We just did the 1500 AP and 6000 AP thing, besides Blackwood Mine,

Do they even ESO?

It's like the randoms from the zone chat calling Bleakers - Bleger.

Minno

frozywozy wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Am i the only one concerned that in nonCP you still have unlimited pools the only difference being that everyone has to wear the same 3 itemsets?

There is also more problems on no-cp: CPs promoting small-scale more for some classes (like Shadow Ward for dk/templar). Or insta-gib builds exists too, and if you can insta-gib enemy and run away you just don't need to think about your sustain.
No-CP is not better nor worse than CP, it just different. Personaly, I like to play on both coz pvp feels less boring when you play with different rules.

I solo about 30 to 50% of my playtime.

Soloing on nonCP without utilizing stealth has to be the most miserable gameplayexperience i´ve made in eso so far.

As a result i´m eagerly awaiting this events end.

I have to agree. As much as NoCP group play has been really enjoyable for me, soloing in noCP without streak or cloak or shadow image is nearly impossible in most scenarios.

For me it stresses the importance of knowing your enemy. If I'm solo, and I'm head rushing a zerg at bleaks, of course I'm going to have a bad time (CP or nCP). But if I'm riding behind them, or off to the side, I have a greater chance to snake a few players and pull them away.

In this scenario, in CP I'm going to have a greater bad time:
- I'm a Templar, so I'm *** no matter what for mobility. But I can heal everyone around me and myself for obscene amounts. If I'm solo, and I face an all Templar group at a resource(which there is one on TF), I'm never going to have a chance to dent that group or get them to lose resources.
- in seducer's, the Regen/cost reduction is better from this set over enchants, CP or nCP. But people can get extreme burst dmg at zero resource Regen penalty making seducer's useless.
- Breton > high elf in nCP (better Magicka resource stats.). So is everyone going to race change to get those extra resource Regen? Doubt it, the other races offer additional bonuses for builds, we just haven't explored them fully since everyone is off in CP Disneyland masking these differences.
- in nCP, they force heavy attacks on your build for Regen. So in HA (which is still dominant due to nCP not giving you that free 20% dmg mitigation you get from CP so armor values are more important), this "active" Regen is buffed. Native destro staff Magicka returned is around 2476 which gets buffed to around 3090 (25% extra if using 5 HA). I think the cast time of a heavy attack is 1.5 seconds- 3 seconds? (I forget the actual time). So 3090 Magicka equates to around 1030 Magicka regen per second. In CP you get this heavy attack Regen as well, but you also get a free 25% cost reduction and another free 15% extra recovery. So in CP you extend fights for obsoletely zero punishment or counter play. Yes you get similar Regen using 3 sets in nCP, but you lose build diversity by choice not by force.
- in CP, a few sets/skills overshadow most due to the increased dmg/mitigation you get for free. Sets like whitestrake, whose shield won't even stop most heavy attacks, might be more viable in nCP. I know blazing shield is much better in nCP since the dmg doesn't have to compete with the inflated numbers provided by CP and because its dmg is determined off the size which is scaled off health, it is more forgiving in situations in nCP where the same situations in CP would make the shield not worth the cost and ultimately forgotten.
- the above statement is also true for abilities/sets that rely on light/heavy attack procs. But most sets aren't tested since the prevailing "wisdom" trickles down from our knowledge of combat under the CP system and we don't want to invest time in understanding a system that won't let us carry over a badge earned based on time spent playing.
- And concluding, why must we balance the CP game based on 1vx when it's increasing more difficult in TF to face off against a larger group than in AZ? AZ has proven that smaller groups have better odds in wiping larger groups, via seige/ultimates and especially in using npc guards. In TF, seige won't work properly, NPCs are fluff, and the highest dmg group ultimate is destro staff and highest dmg single target ultimate is onslaught. So it's laughable that people defend build diversity there when essentially to play pure 1vx solo you need to be a NB ganker. In AZ, at least fights are more diverse in abilities and opportunities for fighting and you will face off against a multitude of builds/enemies.