Someone has to say it....Roots are OP

Derra

I have to agree 100% on this topic.

It say basically everything that now on noCP the most effective thing i can do with my sorc in a 3 person grp is alternating between: encase=>healingward=>darkdeal

Minno

Solariken wrote: »

This is a sensitive balancing category to be sure. I am generally in favor of strong and reliable roots/snares with very short duration active immunity (6s seems about right) but there needs to be more honing of individual skills rather than more access to counterplay measures. Kiting is already an extremely difficult playstyle in ESO due to easy access to purges and spammable gap closers.

There should be tiered snare categories that mirror Expedition - Major Hindrance for most single target, low damage abilities (Crippling Grasp, Stampede, perhaps even Lotus Fan). Minor Hindrance for most AoE, low damage abilities (Templar circles and jabs, Tremorscale, Mass Hysteria). There could be a third category for ultimates, Superior Hindrance (Solar Disturbance, Bolstering Darkness, Ice Comet).

1. Encase should be changed to single target immobilize and deal low-moderate strike damage. Sorcs already have insta-mines to use as a pseudo AoE immobilize and this would give Sorcs a little on-demand, in-class damage they have been craving.

2. DK Ardent Flame Warmth passive should apply Minor Hindrance (a small but deserved control nerf at this point).

3. Mist Form needs immunity/purge fixed but a reduction in mitigation to 50% instead of 75%. The current damage reduction is absolutely obscene on top of heavy armor and alternate resource return.

4. Forward Momentum needs a slight decrease in immunity to 6s but add 6s of Minor Expedition and a slight HOT increase.

There are lots of other tweaks that could be made, but those are a few that come to mind.

In CP or nCP? Because in nCP this bonus is countered by the lack of cost reduction and Regen. You can turn it on constantly but if you aren't careful, you will have a bad time.

Asgari

I am all for reducing root spam from mobile classes but DK better not get nerfed in that aspect. It's hard enough as it is keeping up with NBs and Sorcs.

Derra

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

I am all for reducing root spam from mobile classes but DK better not get nerfed in that aspect. It's hard enough as it is keeping up with NBs and Sorcs.

I personally think it´s mainly ranged roots.

Cripple, petrify (this is the worst), icy reach and to some degree encase.

NBrookus

BuggeX wrote: »

there is a set that Counters root spam, it heals you and give you back Stamina each time you get cced.
i dont care about dogerolls, they cant doge my dots or powerlash

Barkskin is:
1) a medium armor set and stam toons are not the ones with the biggest root problems, since they have the stam to break free and dodge roll and
2) is unfortunately otherwise a pretty lackluster set to give up a 5 piece bonus for

I even played with combining it with Hist Sap. You just end up with a toon that does almost nothing effectively.

NightbladeMechanics

@Solariken I'm pretty sure mist form puts you at the mitigation hard cap, mitigating damage equally for anyone using it regardless of heavy/light armor, cp, or other sources of mitigation.

I disagree that its mitigation should be lowered as long as you're still unable to heal while in mist form. That's a huge drawback and makes going into mist risky if you're taking a lot of incoming damage. With a handful of people hitting you, you can often still take enough damage in mist form that you are susceptible to being bursted upon exiting mist before you have a chance to heal up.

Honestly I think the skill is fine as is, except for the fact that gap closer snare and a few other snares still work through it. It's one of few mechanics in this game that are strong while still having clear drawbacks associated with it.

NightbladeMechanics

NBrookus wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

there is a set that Counters root spam, it heals you and give you back Stamina each time you get cced.
i dont care about dogerolls, they cant doge my dots or powerlash

Barkskin is:
1) a medium armor set and stam toons are not the ones with the biggest root problems, since they have the stam to break free and dodge roll and
2) is unfortunately otherwise a pretty lackluster set to give up a 5 piece bonus for

I even played with combining it with Hist Sap. You just end up with a toon that does almost nothing effectively.

They'd be great sets if we had softcaps. Damage meta for the win?

Not that I think softcaps are the ideal way to balance this game at this time, but just saying.

Kartalin

NBrookus wrote: »

I even played with combining it with Hist Sap. You just end up with a toon that does almost nothing effectively.

I tried hist sap on my magplar but I really wasn't seeing the resource return I was hoping for to give up other sets.

Solariken

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

@Solariken I'm pretty sure mist form puts you at the mitigation hard cap, mitigating damage equally for anyone using it regardless of heavy/light armor, cp, or other sources of mitigation.

I disagree that its mitigation should be lowered as long as you're still unable to heal while in mist form. That's a huge drawback and makes going into mist risky if you're taking a lot of incoming damage. With a handful of people hitting you, you can often still take enough damage in mist form that you are susceptible to being bursted upon exiting mist before you have a chance to heal up.

Honestly I think the skill is fine as is, except for the fact that gap closer snare and a few other snares still work through it. It's one of few mechanics in this game that are strong while still having clear drawbacks associated with it.

@NightbladeMechanics I wasn't aware there was a hard cap on mitigation? There is a hard cap on resistances but I'm pretty sure you can creep right up to 95%+ in special circumstances, though you can never reach 100% because diminishing returns on percent-based mitigation.

Sharee

Roots are only OP on toons which can spam them while being virtually immune to them themselves (i.e stam builds that roll around all the time anyway, roots or not, so they mostly don't even notice they've been rooted)

NightbladeMechanics

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

@Solariken I'm pretty sure mist form puts you at the mitigation hard cap, mitigating damage equally for anyone using it regardless of heavy/light armor, cp, or other sources of mitigation.

I disagree that its mitigation should be lowered as long as you're still unable to heal while in mist form. That's a huge drawback and makes going into mist risky if you're taking a lot of incoming damage. With a handful of people hitting you, you can often still take enough damage in mist form that you are susceptible to being bursted upon exiting mist before you have a chance to heal up.

Honestly I think the skill is fine as is, except for the fact that gap closer snare and a few other snares still work through it. It's one of few mechanics in this game that are strong while still having clear drawbacks associated with it.

@NightbladeMechanics I wasn't aware there was a hard cap on mitigation? There is a hard cap on resistances but I'm pretty sure you can creep right up to 95%+ in special circumstances, though you can never reach 100% because diminishing returns on percent-based mitigation.

Making me second guess old testing. I shall try to remember to test this again tonight. For now, nap time. Work has me beat right now.

Domander

There is immunity to roots via 4 in game abilities, roots cost a lot and don't do a lot of (or any) damage. It can be hard to pin down some players.

They can be powerful, but they should be, and they are nowhere near as powerful as hard CC.

Lore_lai

Minno wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

You can at least see a giant big red circle for Templar CC
And that spell is pricey, and we are using it to purge not snare (so by spamming we break resources where other classes can go offensively.)

Only Ritual of Retribution has red telegraph and that morph is just terrible for PvP.
Purifying Ritual also snares because the snare is in the passive, not the skill.
It was a terrible change and I would love to see it removed.

Why is it a terrible skill for pvp? It has its use, mostly to passively proc grothdarr/valkyn skoria so you are not totally useless if stuck on a defensive bar. I know the purges are reduced, but I've gotten around this via hitting mist form first then popping a retribution. And last I remember seeing, the heal ticks for more per tick than the other morph which extends that hot over a longer period. In a open pvp fight, being vamp+using the 5 purge option was redundant, for me at least.

I can count the amount of times the snare of that Templar passive being an issue in cyro on one finger. Encase/talons are much worse since they literally lock you in place.

Because RoR is terrible if you are outnumbered. Because I am not going to give up a very good defensive skill in favor of a dot that will probably not even hit that hard anyway. Because in small scale you want to focus more on single-targeting than just aoe. Because I can keep a very good Skoria uptime with what I have available that I don't need RoR (procs on Sweeps, Reflective light, procs on Purifying light, procs on beam, heck it even procs on my medium weaves with DW).
Because if I fight in non-CP I don't even want Skoria but another set that is independent of CPs - like Slimecraw.
Because RoR would completely f*** you over if you are outnumbered and you run into Fasalla's.
Etc. etc. etc.

TLDR: I really do not find it worth it.
I already have issues with purifying roots off of me with Purifying when I'm being encase spammed by a dedicated encase spammer and I have 3-4 other ppl on me.

maxjapank

Minno wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

You can at least see a giant big red circle for Templar CC
And that spell is pricey, and we are using it to purge not snare (so by spamming we break resources where other classes can go offensively.)

Only Ritual of Retribution has red telegraph and that morph is just terrible for PvP.
Purifying Ritual also snares because the snare is in the passive, not the skill.
It was a terrible change and I would love to see it removed.

Why is it a terrible skill for pvp? It has its use, mostly to passively proc grothdarr/valkyn skoria so you are not totally useless if stuck on a defensive bar. I know the purges are reduced, but I've gotten around this via hitting mist form first then popping a retribution. And last I remember seeing, the heal ticks for more per tick than the other morph which extends that hot over a longer period. In a open pvp fight, being vamp+using the 5 purge option was redundant, for me at least.

It isn't terrible. It can heal for a ton and has it's place. I've read what the other poster said, and most of that is preferred game play. And that's a good thing. It's a good thing to have choice. The only downside to Ritual of Retribution is someone who wears Fasalla's. But when One Tamriel came out, many player's stopped using Fasalla's for some reason. So it was fairly safe to use. But I'm not sure if Fasalla's is on the rise now as a play in a group and purge is a better skill for all.

Joy_Division

Minno wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

You can at least see a giant big red circle for Templar CC
And that spell is pricey, and we are using it to purge not snare (so by spamming we break resources where other classes can go offensively.)

Only Ritual of Retribution has red telegraph and that morph is just terrible for PvP.
Purifying Ritual also snares because the snare is in the passive, not the skill.
It was a terrible change and I would love to see it removed.

Why is it a terrible skill for pvp? It has its use, mostly to passively proc grothdarr/valkyn skoria so you are not totally useless if stuck on a defensive bar. I know the purges are reduced, but I've gotten around this via hitting mist form first then popping a retribution. And last I remember seeing, the heal ticks for more per tick than the other morph which extends that hot over a longer period. In a open pvp fight, being vamp+using the 5 purge option was redundant, for me at least.

I can count the amount of times the snare of that Templar passive being an issue in cyro on one finger. Encase/talons are much worse since they literally lock you in place.

I wouldn't say it's terrible, but why are you using it? If you are using it for damage, then it's inefficient (especially in PvP, slow DoTs are borderline irrelevant. If you are using it for cleanse, all I can say it there I times I cleanse with Extended ritual and I'm still debuffed. I suppose in a dual, Retribution is probably better, but you're going to get more than two debuffs next to you bump into a Pact Militia raid.

Re: Mitigation. I'm a Nord, a vampire, used Empowering Sweep, the focus with minor protection, and mist form, plus probably had some other random mitigation effects on me at one time. There is more than diminishing returns with damage mit and there is no way I wasn't mitigating 95% even with all that.

It's one of the reasons why I hate the Nord's racial passive and think it's terrible. As an Altmer, Dunmmer, Orc etc., damage gets higher, their passive gets better. But with Nords, as their mitigation gets better, their passive gets worse.

Minno

Lore_lai wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

You can at least see a giant big red circle for Templar CC
And that spell is pricey, and we are using it to purge not snare (so by spamming we break resources where other classes can go offensively.)

Only Ritual of Retribution has red telegraph and that morph is just terrible for PvP.
Purifying Ritual also snares because the snare is in the passive, not the skill.
It was a terrible change and I would love to see it removed.

Why is it a terrible skill for pvp? It has its use, mostly to passively proc grothdarr/valkyn skoria so you are not totally useless if stuck on a defensive bar. I know the purges are reduced, but I've gotten around this via hitting mist form first then popping a retribution. And last I remember seeing, the heal ticks for more per tick than the other morph which extends that hot over a longer period. In a open pvp fight, being vamp+using the 5 purge option was redundant, for me at least.

I can count the amount of times the snare of that Templar passive being an issue in cyro on one finger. Encase/talons are much worse since they literally lock you in place.

Because RoR is terrible if you are outnumbered. Because I am not going to give up a very good defensive skill in favor of a dot that will probably not even hit that hard anyway. Because in small scale you want to focus more on single-targeting than just aoe. Because I can keep a very good Skoria uptime with what I have available that I don't need RoR (procs on Sweeps, Reflective light, procs on Purifying light, procs on beam, heck it even procs on my medium weaves with DW).
Because if I fight in non-CP I don't even want Skoria but another set that is independent of CPs - like Slimecraw.
Because RoR would completely f*** you over if you are outnumbered and you run into Fasalla's.
Etc. etc. etc.

TLDR: I really do not find it worth it.
I already have issues with purifying roots off of me with Purifying when I'm being encase spammed by a dedicated encase spammer and I have 3-4 other ppl on me.

Why is it terrible outnumbered? I'd rather have the extra health on each tick and extra valkyn skoria proc than trying to spam all the dots off from the Zerg spamming spells.

My dot comment is about adding an extra way to proc Skoria if you can't get off a VB or are stuck trying to get off a heal therefore stopping you from hitting with jabs.

It also doesn't distract from single target at all. No one said that's your only dmg spell(or actually using it offensively lol.)

Slimecraw seems terrible. 8% dmg increase on jabs is only adding extra 200 dmg with health recovery that's useless on a vampire. I'd rather have the extra 4k burst dmg and time it, with the extra health from valkyn.

VB + Jabs will *** you over against fasalles the same. RoR is better than VB in this regard because you can at least reposition, recast it, and reposition again to keep him off the circle. In the meantime, what are you supposed to blow him kisses to death? I never heard fasalles as a reason why a skill is useless. By that logic anything offensive you are screwed against those builds, especially trying to use jabs on them.

I can see why you use purifying over the other morph; I assume you aren't vamp. Once again I said I use mist form to cleanse "all snares" at will followed by purge for the actual dots. Why would you burn all that Magicka trying to pull down the never ending list of dots from zergs?

Not that it matters, but RoR also stops camps from being flagged from enemies or stops players from trying to put water down on their burning camps.

It's not useless, it just has plus or minus situations. Same for purifying.

Lore_lai

Ok let me point out why it is bad if you run into fasalla's and/or are outnumbered.

Because choice.

Fasalla - when fighting Fasalla's and you have Purifying you can choose to go purely defensive for a bit if things go really bad.
If you use RoR then GG. You skill that is supposed to help you out will make it 100x worse because you'll be Fasalla'd non stop from your purify - see the irony? Bane/Reflective at least stops relatively quick in its timer and you can actively choose not to sweep.

I wouldn't pick it up in a duel for the same reason. Also because of its big radius it would be hard to control other proc sets that proc on damage done to your opponent (that they are wearing).
Also because even in a duel in the span of 2-3 seconds, depending on what class you are fighting, you can have ~10 debuffs on you just like that.
Now think how many you will have when 2-4 people start piling on you.

Also, we don't get to choose what purify will purge so I'd rather have 5 over 2 to have a better margin of error.

RinaldoGandolphi

I honestly think both morphs of Ritual are really good

ROR is literally a magic version of caltrops and can be very useful in group play when used like caltrops would be used to slow and damage enemies.

Extended Ritual is probably better in 2-4 man groups where you have to be a bit more greedy with your morphs if your the only healer to try and give your self a better defensive skill

In med size pvp groups id say ROR is better as you can use it to snare and damage enemies like caltrops, toss it on breeches to reveal folks trying to sneak in, that kinda stuff

I think Templars are very lucky to have two great morphs of a great skill each which offers really good bonuses depending on your playstyle (solo/ small man vs med group play)

Strider_Roshin

Roots OP? Next thing you know people are going to start saying damage shields are OP, and water is wet.

manny254

If someone has to explain why ritual of retribution is bad you are probably spending most of your time zerging or zerg surfing.

NBrookus

Minno wrote: »

Why is it terrible outnumbered? I'd rather have the extra health on each tick and extra valkyn skoria proc than trying to spam all the dots off from the Zerg spamming spells. ... I never heard fasalles as a reason why a skill is useless.

From the other perspective, when I wore a pestilence tank build I would specifically look for RoR's (and other low power ground based damage) to stand in when appropriate. I didn't have to be close enough to the player for them to use sweeps and it's large enough that I had room to move around while keeping the debuff up with me taking completely irrelevant amounts of damage. Templars can't un-cast or remove their own ritual, so it forced them to either eat the debuff or reposition themselves and waste magicka laying down a new house. Which, if they put down a new ritual out of habit, was potentially a new good spot for me to move into.

Lots of sets proc off taking damage. RoR is damage you can't control.

Aerem

Moglijuana wrote: »

Father_X_Zombie wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Father_X_Zombie wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

I use talons all day since I run no gap closer and am a Light Armor Melee Dps. I would say sorry, but...Light Armor Melee Dps kind of explains why idc.

Good players get away roughly 80% of the time.

Bad players die 100% of the time.

Shuffle.
Rapid Maneuvers.
Mist Form.
Cleanse.
Purge.
Forward Momentum.
Shadow Image.
Draining/Magnum Shot.
Ambush.
Empowering Chains.
Streak.

vs.

Talons.
Encase.
Bombard.

Lots of ways for every class to 3 escape roots.

lol how the hell is streak a counter to roots? you can only streak in the direction that you were originally facing. and it doesnt get rid of the root, it just puts a few feet away from the root spammer and by the time you recover, hes back on your ass spamming roots again. I shouldnt have to be a vamp just to counter root spam(i actually got rid of vamp because of mag dks) . mist form really isnt a counter ether, your only immune while your in mist form which is just useless. and purge is WAY too expensive to run on any build.

Streak twice. You know, since its spammable like every other skill in the game. I for sure won't chase a streaking sorc since talons range is so small to begin with, and I run no gap closer.

It's interesting to see so many people complain about roots. I play all classes and never really have any issues with roots unless I'm about to be zerged down, or am simply out of resources. Probably since I main Mag DK and know how to avoid getting rooted in the first place =D.

However, I am not against giving magicka users another outlet for snare immunity. It's still not going to help against a good player who knows when to CC/Snare appropriately though. So.

Streaking twice would help me get away from the spammer but not help me fight him as he could just catch up to me. Plus streaking too much hemorrhages magicka

The highlighted sentence above is literally all you have to do to wait out the 4 seconds after getting away from a spammer (I know because that's how sorcs get away from me =0 ). And boom, no more talons. If he tries to catch you anyways, that usually means he's sprinting = he's using stamina. Punish him for it.

Also, I can streak like 8+ times on my sorc before I get really low...that's like, a freaking Cyrodiilic mile that no mDK will ever try and chase.

Please remember that if being zerged down YOU HAVE NO CHANCE REGARDLESS OF YOUR SKILL/CLASS/ABILITIES and will ultimately die to MULTIPLE snares/roots/stuns which in fact proves nothing besides that fact that zergs are the most OP thing in the game. NOT that roots/snares are "OP".

essentially this

Derra

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

@Solariken I'm pretty sure mist form puts you at the mitigation hard cap, mitigating damage equally for anyone using it regardless of heavy/light armor, cp, or other sources of mitigation.

I disagree that its mitigation should be lowered as long as you're still unable to heal while in mist form. That's a huge drawback and makes going into mist risky if you're taking a lot of incoming damage. With a handful of people hitting you, you can often still take enough damage in mist form that you are susceptible to being bursted upon exiting mist before you have a chance to heal up.

Honestly I think the skill is fine as is, except for the fact that gap closer snare and a few other snares still work through it. It's one of few mechanics in this game that are strong while still having clear drawbacks associated with it.

I think the problem with mistform is that there are noumerous ways to bypass the noregen penalty nowadays.

Heavyarmor, minor magica steal, runefocus, magicafurnace to name whats immediatly coming to mind.

If mistform being rooted (by poisons) and gapclosers were to be fixed it would also have to halt all means of recovering magica.

Lore_lai

Aerem wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Please remember that if being zerged down YOU HAVE NO CHANCE REGARDLESS OF YOUR SKILL/CLASS/ABILITIES and will ultimately die to MULTIPLE snares/roots/stuns which in fact proves nothing besides that fact that zergs are the most OP thing in the game. NOT that roots/snares are "OP".

essentially this

Not really. I have much, much higher chance to kite to LoS and potentially wipe an outnumbering group of people with no root spammer than an outnumbering (but smaller) group with multiple roots applied.

Derra wrote: »

I think the problem with mistform is that there are noumerous ways to bypass the noregen penalty nowadays.

Heavyarmor, minor magica steal, runefocus, magicafurnace to name whats immediatly coming to mind.

If mistform being rooted (by poisons) and gapclosers were to be fixed it would also have to halt all means of recovering magica.

Very well said!
Not only that but mist also gives hard CC immunity (hence a counter to having to use a big chunk of stam to break free, aka indirectly converting mag to stam if you time it properly), and meshes extremely well with stam regen sets like Amber Plasm.
But melee snare (snare that gets applied on any type of melee weave and ignores snare immunity) needs to go away and so does the stupid gap closer snare.

Jitterbug

Not much to add to that OP so I'll just /bow

Thelon

Moglijuana wrote: »

Also, I can streak like 8+ times on my sorc before I get really low

cool story bro

Malamar1229

This crap has got to get fixed. At least give them diminshing returns. get in range of a Dk as a sorc and GG. nonstop root spam.
have to counter now by running encase so you can at least get distance.

Moglijuana

Thelon wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Also, I can streak like 8+ times on my sorc before I get really low

cool story bro

I l2p'd.

Malamar1229

limited stam pool on a magicka sorc makes it a nightmare. streak spam doesnt work and its too expensive.


i considered running that magicka set that removes up to 5 i think harmful effecfs (not sure it if works on roots)

Lexxypwns

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken, the following can counter roots:

- Immovable potion
- Immovable (Heavy armor skill)
- Mist Form
- Dodge Roll
- Gap closers? (to my knowledge, gap closers are not disabled and still work while rooted, allowing movement)

With my play style I enjoy when an opponent continuously tries to root me because it means they're not hitting me with their strongest attacks. However I could see how it would be really annoying in a 1 versus many situation, because all it takes is one person rooting and you are more vulnerable to others in that group - although, that's also when dodge roll and Mist Form come in handy.

Immovable doesn't counter roots or snares at all