ESO Hates Stamina Builds Please Fix this ZOS

Tornaad

I say that based on the classes. Every last ability for every single class (save the ultimate abilities) all start as Magic based abilities.
There are a few abilities that can be turned into stamina based abilities but they are a minority.
So if I want to build a stamina based character (which I do) then I have to almost ignore the abilities my class gives me and find things in other areas to support my character.
Yes it can be done, and yes it can be done successfully, but if they actually fully supported stamina based builds then there would be some class abilities that at least started as stamina based.

Please give us some stamina based classes.

SHADOW2KK

The way things are now is as good as it has ever been for stam builds, from early access on pc for bloody ages was the meta dress wearing magicka players.

Still agree with you though on some things.

Doctordarkspawn

Simply put: The design favors magicka builds.

There has allways been fights that favor ranged approaches and discourage or outright disable a melee approach. This is simply how it is. Stamina builds are slowly being phased out again due to how the fights typically play out. DPS in melee range typically get screwed the longer a fight goes on.

S'not gonna change, sadly.

Kneighbors

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

The way things are now is as good as it has ever been for stam builds, from early access on pc for bloody ages was the meta dress wearing magicka players.

Still agree with you though on some things.

Looks like you are talking about PvP.

There's a big conflict right now. In PvP stamina classes are very good right now. While in PvE they are really bad. If you will compare NB with Sorc starting from lvl 4 till cp600 you will discover that:

1) Sorc is much easier to play for solo.
2) Sorc gets better DPS in dungeons on low levels.
3) Sorc is much better surviving. First morph to clanfear gives him burst heal. Later he gets Surge which just makes life easy for him. At the same time NB is trying to heal himself from mark target and trying to grind AP for Vigor (now it's alil bit easier due to AP increase, before was not easy at all)
4) Sorc is easier to play in PvP content. Rune shield + Bolt Escape lets him run away from any danger in PvP while NB will get mugged almost every encounter with enemy player.
5) Sorc get fast access to shield (Ward) and increase of resistances (Lightning Form).

In latest patch ZoS turned toward PvP players and turned away from PvE. I think it's wrong simply because the first reason I came to ESO was its highly recommended PvE content. I have never played MMO or any kind of PvE online game before. I am 20 years playing PvP competetive games. I can call myself sort of professional by the amount of time I invested in it. So I can tell you one thing: ESO will never become competetive PvP game. Leave PvP in it's beta state. Focus on improving PvE more, not PvP.

Billzihang123

I fail to understand why class abilities all start as magicka-based.

A solution would be to have class abilities work differently, and have a special morph initially when you learn them where you choose if it cost stamina or magicka. I mean, why not? Magicka seems rather advantaged by default, and aren't all classes supposed to support stamina and magicka builds?

Give choice.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Just have all skills scale off max stat...

skiptomyluau

The thing is with mag dodge rolling and blocking don't impact your ability to use skills but with stam it's a double whammy

DragonBound

Yet when I mentioned this in October I got attacked by many and trolled, I tried to suggest there needs to be more class stam morphs.

Tornaad

CosmicSoul wrote: »

Yet when I mentioned this in October I got attacked by many and trolled, I tried to suggest there needs to be more class stam morphs.

Well I don't mind being attacked and maybe my post will back up yours enough that it will get the right people thinking.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Kneighbors wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

The way things are now is as good as it has ever been for stam builds, from early access on pc for bloody ages was the meta dress wearing magicka players.

Still agree with you though on some things.

Looks like you are talking about PvP.

There's a big conflict right now. In PvP stamina classes are very good right now. While in PvE they are really bad. If you will compare NB with Sorc starting from lvl 4 till cp600 you will discover that:

1) Sorc is much easier to play for solo.
2) Sorc gets better DPS in dungeons on low levels.
3) Sorc is much better surviving. First morph to clanfear gives him burst heal. Later he gets Surge which just makes life easy for him. At the same time NB is trying to heal himself from mark target and trying to grind AP for Vigor (now it's alil bit easier due to AP increase, before was not easy at all)
4) Sorc is easier to play in PvP content. Rune shield + Bolt Escape lets him run away from any danger in PvP while NB will get mugged almost every encounter with enemy player.
5) Sorc get fast access to shield (Ward) and increase of resistances (Lightning Form).

In latest patch ZoS turned toward PvP players and turned away from PvE. I think it's wrong simply because the first reason I came to ESO was its highly recommended PvE content. I have never played MMO or any kind of PvE online game before. I am 20 years playing PvP competetive games. I can call myself sort of professional by the amount of time I invested in it. So I can tell you one thing: ESO will never become competetive PvP game. Leave PvP in it's beta state. Focus on improving PvE more, not PvP.

1. You can't say this, all classes and both stam and magic have way to survive easily at lower levels, IE blood thirst in the dual wield and magblade have funnel health. HeLL two hander with brawler is enough to complete 95% of open world stuff
2. Low level running dungeon is not about DPS, it is just about learning the machanics of the dungeons, and at end game all classes are capable of pull 30k+, more then enough to complete all content in the game.
3. I would say again NB with strife and shadow cloak it is just as easy to survive. Who needs burst heal when you can just go invisible and survive.
4. Have you played a NB in PvP? Cloak + speed buff is crazy power for survival. And you can gank like no other.
5. Stamblade gets their major resist at the same time they are debuffing and attacking, for free from passives.


The point is in open world PvE and end game all classes and both stam and magic have great tools available to them, it really is up to the player to figure it out how to use them.

Wing

pvp does not favor stamina, magicka is where its at.

thankyourat

Wing wrote: »

pvp does not favor stamina, magicka is where its at.

The beast that is stam sorc has something to say about this lol


Op the reason their aren't more stamina class skills is because they have weapon abilities with really high burst out really strong dots. Try can still use their magicka utility abilities to make the class feel different from other stamina classes. The only place stamina really struggles is competitive endgame PvE (trials) in 99℅ of the game though stamina is really good. if they start making more stamina morphs for class abilities you take options away from magicka players who only have one weapon skill line to chose from while stamina has 4.

Chilly-McFreeze

Kneighbors wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

The way things are now is as good as it has ever been for stam builds, from early access on pc for bloody ages was the meta dress wearing magicka players.

Still agree with you though on some things.

Looks like you are talking about PvP.

There's a big conflict right now. In PvP stamina classes are very good right now. While in PvE they are really bad. If you will compare NB with Sorc starting from lvl 4 till cp600 you will discover that:

1) Sorc is much easier to play for solo.
2) Sorc gets better DPS in dungeons on low levels.
3) Sorc is much better surviving. First morph to clanfear gives him burst heal. Later he gets Surge which just makes life easy for him. At the same time NB is trying to heal himself from mark target and trying to grind AP for Vigor (now it's alil bit easier due to AP increase, before was not easy at all)
4) Sorc is easier to play in PvP content. Rune shield + Bolt Escape lets him run away from any danger in PvP while NB will get mugged almost every encounter with enemy player.
5) Sorc get fast access to shield (Ward) and increase of resistances (Lightning Form).

In latest patch ZoS turned toward PvP players and turned away from PvE. I think it's wrong simply because the first reason I came to ESO was its highly recommended PvE content. I have never played MMO or any kind of PvE online game before. I am 20 years playing PvP competetive games. I can call myself sort of professional by the amount of time I invested in it. So I can tell you one thing: ESO will never become competetive PvP game. Leave PvP in it's beta state. Focus on improving PvE more, not PvP.

I just woke up so maybe I don't get it. But you want to prove that magicka is by design superior to stamina. And to do so you compare one class to another. Wouldn't it make more sense if you compare a stam blade to a mag blade or a stam sorc to a mag sorc etc? This is not about which class is better but of the value of stamina compared to magicka.

Indeed, there are many more class skills based on magicka than on stam. But that doesn't mean stamina can't use magicka abilities. Most buffs are based on magicka and some even favor stamina in the base skill option. Take Surge as an example. It may costs you magicka but it grants major brutality, increasing weapon damage. One morph adds on the heals and the second morph adds major sorcery.

You can use these buffs freely as your magicka pool is a dump ressource. You just buff. As a stam char, you don't use magicka to attack, you can use it all up to buff etc. while magicka chars have to attack, heal and buff with that. Compared to stamina chars using stamina to block, dodge and attack this seems like an even choice to make. Remember, magicka chars have a tiny stam pool to dodge, block or break free 2-3 times before it runs out.

Also, most weapon skills utilize stamina. If you don't let sword and bord + two handed count because it's not usefull for dps in pve, then you also should exclude restoration staves from that. Basically your choic of weapons get narrowed down to either use a destruction staff so you can use weapon skills or you use two swords and don't use weapons skills but only class skills. Sorcerer doesn't even has a class spam so running dw on a mag sorc isn't all that easy.
But since this isn't purely about pve dps you should rethink that sword and bord is better than an ice staff for tanking and two handed is a great skill line in pvp. Also consider that sword and bord and dual wield gives you easy acces to a 5-5-2 set up + stats from shield (enchantment, trait and resistance) than a ice staff. I don't know if the argument of dw giving more weapon / spell damage than a staff is still viable since the 8% dmg buff to fire/ lightning staves.

As far as survivability goes, stam got some nice heals from dual wield (blood craze, bloodthirst) and alliance war (vigor). Also from two handed (rally) and back up heals from sword and board (absorb magic) or class skills (surge).

Sure, for dw/ 2h/ snb you have to close range and be in the danger zone more than a ranged class. There are some things to consider. In PVP you can easily close that range via gap closer, which are a real pain since the gape closer cc is annoying and gc are spammable, unlike e.g. streak or BoL (increasing costs). And to fully utilize your magicka class, you may have to get into close combat too. Mind puncturing sweep, radial sweep, lightning form, assisins blade, eye of the storm etc.

The latest balance patch was magicka favored. Granting fire staves 8% single dmg, lightning 8% aoe and giving ice a niche (that is still better filled by snb) while reducing the damage from trap beast and dual wield. This makes it obvious that magicka was prefered this time. But would the uproar be the same if they only buffed magicka? Maybe. But after all I know the balance and the favour for that sake shift from time to time. Not so long ago stamina was in a better spot than magicka. Maybe that will happen again.
Stam or Mag, there are pro and con arguments for both, they all have their drawbacks. It's more of a choice you make what you want and then adding up around it. I like the differences and would find it a pity if they make everything even in form of ability does X - morph 1: does xy for stamina - morph 2: does same xy for magicka.

Edit: Keep in mind that some of the best damage proc sets are based on stamina.

wolfdoggie_ESO

It'd be nice if skills had more than just two morph options or another branch was added so there'd be something for either stamina or magicka.

Robisok74

One word 'Stamsorc'!!

notimetocare

Zuboko wrote: »

I say that based on the classes. Every last ability for every single class (save the ultimate abilities) all start as Magic based abilities.
There are a few abilities that can be turned into stamina based abilities but they are a minority.
So if I want to build a stamina based character (which I do) then I have to almost ignore the abilities my class gives me and find things in other areas to support my character.
Yes it can be done, and yes it can be done successfully, but if they actually fully supported stamina based builds then there would be some class abilities that at least started as stamina based.

Please give us some stamina based classes.

If you look at basically every skill in the game, class wise, they all resemble spells. That's why they're all Magicka. The initial design of the game put stamina into weapon and Magicka in the class. Even staves damage used to scale off stamina (not the skills though)

Unsent.Soul

OP has been gone for the last year or is completely clueless...

Tryxus

3 Class Skill trees and 2 Weapons (Mag) vs 4 Weapons and Stamina morphs of certain class skills (Stam)

Seems about right to me

Drasn

Kneighbors wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

The way things are now is as good as it has ever been for stam builds, from early access on pc for bloody ages was the meta dress wearing magicka players.

Still agree with you though on some things.

Looks like you are talking about PvP.

There's a big conflict right now. In PvP stamina classes are very good right now. While in PvE they are really bad. If you will compare NB with Sorc starting from lvl 4 till cp600 you will discover that:

1) Sorc is much easier to play for solo.
2) Sorc gets better DPS in dungeons on low levels.
3) Sorc is much better surviving. First morph to clanfear gives him burst heal. Later he gets Surge which just makes life easy for him. At the same time NB is trying to heal himself from mark target and trying to grind AP for Vigor (now it's alil bit easier due to AP increase, before was not easy at all)
4) Sorc is easier to play in PvP content. Rune shield + Bolt Escape lets him run away from any danger in PvP while NB will get mugged almost every encounter with enemy player.
5) Sorc get fast access to shield (Ward) and increase of resistances (Lightning Form).

In latest patch ZoS turned toward PvP players and turned away from PvE. I think it's wrong simply because the first reason I came to ESO was its highly recommended PvE content. I have never played MMO or any kind of PvE online game before. I am 20 years playing PvP competetive games. I can call myself sort of professional by the amount of time I invested in it. So I can tell you one thing: ESO will never become competetive PvP game. Leave PvP in it's beta state. Focus on improving PvE more, not PvP.

The problem you have is thinking that Nightblade means use stamina and Sorcerer means use magicka. Welcome to Elder Scrolls Online where any class can be magicka and any class can be stamina. (Also, I'm guessing you didn't know that any class can be a tank and any class can be a healer.)

You can't compare two classes as a basis for magicka vs stamina. You need to compare two different builds of the same class.

However, I think the real issue is learning the game and its mechanics as you are mainly talking about starting off and how soon each class gets access to certain abilities(mainly ones that are heals/resist focused.) Once you learn this isn't a stand still and out dps the mob and that you can avoid almost all damage by timing dodge rolls and blocks(and not standing in stupid) while still quickly killing enemies, I think you will be okay.

Voxicity

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Simply put: The design favors magicka builds.

There has allways been fights that favor ranged approaches and discourage or outright disable a melee approach. This is simply how it is. Stamina builds are slowly being phased out again due to how the fights typically play out. DPS in melee range typically get screwed the longer a fight goes on.

S'not gonna change, sadly.

@Doctordarkspawn After our disagreement a couple of days ago, this is definitely something I can agree with you on very well put

TheShadowScout

Zuboko wrote: »

I say that based on the classes. Every last ability for every single class (save the ultimate abilities) all start as Magic based abilities.
There are a few abilities that can be turned into stamina based abilities but they are a minority...

True.
But working as intended.

"Stamina builds" are supposed to be the warriors who favor brawn over brain.
"Magica builds" are supposed to be the wizards who favor brains over brawn.

Now, considering this, look at the class skills again... breathing fire, turning invisible, calling down lightning, throwing balls of holy fire, conjuring a flame whip, teleporting, summoning daedra, healing prayers, creating ash clouds, stealing lifeforce, curses, et cetera...

So, tell me again how those ought to be "brawn-based"?

The point is, stamina builds are -supposed- to depend more on weapon skills, while magica builds are -supposed- to have a wide range of all the nifty magical effects.
Stamina builds are the warriors and knights, barbarians and amazons - Conan, Hercules, Galahad, Aragorn, Sturm, Kull, Xena, Boromir, Brienne, Wulfgar, Lancelot, Sandor, Achilles, Gimli, Sigfried, Arthur, Caramon, Goliath, Red Sonja, Fafhrd, Kitiara, Bruenor...
Stamina builds are the rangers and rouges, thieves and assassins - Legolas, Arya, Drizzt, Frodo, Grey Mouser, Odysseus, Tasslehoff, Bilbo, Sinbad, David, Tyrion...
Magica builds on the other hand are the wizards and priestesses, shamans and witches - Merlin, Raistlin, Melisande, Gandalf, Circe, Elminster, Saruman, Koschei, Dalamar, Morgan leFey, and so on...

So, stamina builds are supposed to get by their skill at weapons and strength of arm.
And they are supposed to like it!
They are not supposed to whine about how it is unfair that the wizard over there can cast curses all day long and they cannot...

Drasn

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Stamina builds are the warriors and knights, barbarians and amazons - Conan, Hercules, Galahad, Aragorn, Sturm, Kull, Xena, Boromir, Brienne, Wulfgar, Lancelot, Sandor, Achilles, Gimli, Sigfried, Arthur, Caramon, Goliath, Red Sonja, Fafhrd, Kitiara, Bruenor...
Stamina builds are the rangers and rouges, thieves and assassins - Legolas, Arya, Drizzt, Frodo, Grey Mouser, Odysseus, Tasslehoff, Bilbo, Sinbad, David, Tyrion...
Magica builds on the other hand are the wizards and priestesses, shamans and witches - Merlin, Raistlin, Melisande, Gandalf, Circe, Elminster, Saruman, Koschei, Dalamar, Morgan leFey, and so on...

I have a feeling our personal libraries are very similar.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Unsent.Soul wrote: »

OP has been gone for the last year or is completely clueless...

The last 6 months have been dominated by stamina builds until this patch. The OP must have just bought the game this week. It's the only possible explanation.

Arthg

Stam builds are for craftsmen: they'll proc'-melt a single target in no time (good luck playing with no proc' sets, though).

IMHO, however, there's no honest competition with magicka builds and their destro ulti.
These take destruction to an industrial level - we're talking mass murder.

I personnally find magicka players' complaints about stam proc sets a bit rich.

alephthiago

The OP also chose to ignore 6...12...18...24 STAMINA SKILLS in weapon skill lines.

But hey...lets not detain ourselves in mere details.

Billzihang123

There's another alternative, and that's to remove the points in magicka or stamina attributes increase your stamina or magicka attacks damage respectively. To me this is a ridiculous system that not only over-complicates balance, but only results in pigeon holing players to being a Stamina ONLY build, or a magicka ONLY build.

This would negate the need to have my suggestion of morphs for every class skill that change the resource.

This is an Elder Scrolls game, and if people want to use a two handed sword along with fireballs they should be free to do so. The passives in the specific trees should increase the damage of the spells within it, not simply putting points in Stamina or magicka.

Think about it, a pure magicka build would have twice as much magicka, so they still have just as large a pool of resources. Same the other way round ofc.

Stop hamstringing your game with these silly MMO conventions.

KingYogi415

Just play pvp. Stam is king!

DRXHarbinger

Wing wrote: »

pvp does not favor stamina, magicka is where its at.

So doesn't. Issue is stam players went batshit for sharpened weapons which are largely useless against magika players. ZOS changed a trait a while back which every called trash....nirnhoned. 2h nirn sword reks shields. Nightblades and Dks can debuff a magplayer anyway so once that shield is stripped off you're dead.

Stamsorc just need to crit rush, dbos and you're in huge trouble.

Stamplar again, charge to knock down that's half your stam getting up wait a few secs and bang back down the floor and sweep them up.

What pvp no longer favours is this *** S&B tremorscale and viper cancer.

Adapt people.

hmsdragonfly

Billzihang123 wrote: »

I fail to understand why class abilities all start as magicka-based.

A solution would be to have class abilities work differently, and have a special morph initially when you learn them where you choose if it cost stamina or magicka. I mean, why not? Magicka seems rather advantaged by default, and aren't all classes supposed to support stamina and magicka builds?

Give choice.

2 Mag-Based Weapon Skill lines.
4 Stam-Based Weapon Skill lines.
3 Class Skill lines, with around 4-5 stam morphs in total.
Seems fair to me.

All classes support both stamina and magicka builds.

You have a **** tons of choices, what are you talking about?

hmsdragonfly

Billzihang123 wrote: »

To me this is a ridiculous system that not only over-complicates balance, but only results in pigeon holing players to being a Stamina ONLY build, or a magicka ONLY build.

This would negate the need to have my suggestion of morphs for every class skill that change the resource.

This is an Elder Scrolls game, and if people want to use a two handed sword along with fireballs they should be free to do so. The passives in the specific trees should increase the damage of the spells within it, not simply putting points in Stamina or magicka.

Think about it, a pure magicka build would have twice as much magicka, so they still have just as large a pool of resources. Same the other way round ofc.

Stop hamstringing your game with these silly MMO conventions.

I beg to differ.

---

The thing is that, even in Skyrim, if people choose to use two-handed sword along with fireballs they will be far weaker than a lot of other combinations. Yes, there are builds in Skyrim, there are absurbly OP builds and there are builds that are so weak you cannot play the game in normal difficulty. Because Skyrim is an offline game, you can simply lower your difficulty, here you cannot ask the player who is attacking you "pls lower your damage and i am using two handed sword along with fireballs". If you choose to theorycraft your own "play as you like" build, you will have to be somewhat decent in game knowledge and you have to be creative, your suggestion shows us that you lack both, so that's why so far you haven't been successful with your "two handed sword along with fireballs" build, and ask the devs to change the game to accommodate your own personal need, but as you see, i have successfully built with my "two handed sword along with fireballs" character. Well, actually not two handed, sword and shield.

EvilCroc

Not so long before, we have seen absolutely same sort of whining from magicka builds.
Time to suffer, staminators.