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Stop calling it "Greed"

  • sirston
    sirston
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    Kendo12 wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    I dont understand. Zenimax showed lot of mercy by just making Morrowind expansion 1 time purchase and not forcing us to also have ESO+ membership active to enter there....

    They won't do that, this game failed as a sub only model

    Not that I dont enjoy the game, but Given the recent change. I tend to think the game is failing at whatever model it chooses.

    I kinda hope that this DLC fails and I see a game that was destined to be a good dies a bad death.
    Whitestakes Revenge
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    Sirston
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  • Yolokin_Swagonborn
    Yolokin_Swagonborn
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    Stop pretending this is about the money. $40 is a decent price for this content.


    NO ONE has an issue that its $40. Can you please stop with the caplitalism strawmen? Its getting ridiculous.
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
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    AlMcFly wrote: »
    Could it not also be Greed that vast amounts of people want a good, produced by the hard work of others, be given to them for free? That, in my opinion, is far more greedy.

    It occurred to me, with this comment, that perhaps we should step back into Algebra 1 for a moment, for perspective.

    Let's see.... on November 21, 2013, I purchased the Imperial Edition of ESO for $80 USD. Then, when the game went live in March 2014, I began subbing. We'll call that April since it released at the end of the month. So, at $15 USD per month, since April 2014, I have spent $510 USD on subs alone. That's a combined investment of $590 USD.

    Let's add up all the of the DLCs.
    Shadows of the Hist (1500 Crowns) = $15 USD
    Dark Brotherhood (2000 Crowns) = $20 USD
    Thieves Guild (2000 Crowns) = $20 USD
    Orsinium (3000 Crowns) = $30 USD
    Imperial City (2500 Crowns) = $25 USD
    Total = $110 USD

    Don't forget to add in the Imperial Edition retail copy of the base game, which is $80 USD, for a grand total of $190.

    So, compared to someone who purchased the base game and every DLC outright, in lieu of a subscription, I have spent almost 3x as much. Do you want to explain to me how that equates to free?! You can't. Why? because that's not how math works.

    And just to be clear: Along with virtually everyone else who chose a subscription (I presume), I took this into account when I chose to sub instead of purchasing outright. A major factor in that consideration was the knowledge the future content would be made available to us as long as we kept the sub. That's the reason we chose to "invest." Instead, we have spent 3x as much for... a crafting bag. I mean, I guess I get crowns, but they can't be used to purchase Morrowind now, can they? That alone would go a long way towards justifying this paywall.

    I've already mentioned in another post that I have no problem with an expansion. I have and will pay for expansions to a subscription-based game. That being said, I take issue with 2 aspects of this situation specifically:
    1. This is not what they advertised. ESO+ members should be accommodated in some way to offset the plain fact that we spend way more on this game than someone who purchases content outright. ESO+ was advertised and treated as a long-term investment from the start, and this model contradicts that concept. It's their rules, not ours. We just play by them because we want to support ZOS and the development of ESO.
    2. The future DLC after Morrowind... I see we have a dungeon DLC and a "content" DLC (whatever that is, I presume some base game updates like Homestead or One Tamriel that are available to everyone anyway). Where are those dungeons going to be? In Morrowind? How much future DLC content, the stuff that would normally be available to ESO+ members, is going to remain locked behind Morrowind? At most we can expect 2 more DLC this year, both of which are likely only a little pricier (if at all) than a month's subscription. How do they intend to justify the other 10-11 months of me subbing before the next "chapter" comes out and I have to pay for that too?

    This idea you have in your head that we want things for free is flawed and ignorant. We've already paid for Morrowind 3 times over, in addition to the base game and all DLC. It's not free... I already invested in it. The absolute simplest way to please ESO+ members is to make Morrowind purchasable by crowns - and then? Viola! Problem solved. I can just use my sub money to buy Morrowind. Divines know it's not getting me anything else, except glorified retextures of stuff I already have.

    And to be super duper clear with you: I'm really friggin' excited for Morrowind. Aside from the underhanded paywall scheme they've got going on here, the update itself looks fantastic. I wouldn't be subbing to this game (nor would I ever have agreed to) if I didn't want to invest in ESO's future. Furthermore, I wouldn't have subbed to begin with if they had not promised me access to all future DLCs. Call this a "chapter" or an "expansion" or whatever you want, but for all intents and purposes, this is a bigger Orsinium with a new class. There's no doubt in my mind it's worth more than Orsinium, either. But I doubt it's worth the $60 + the other $200 I've already spent on subs that I can't use to purchase it.
    Edited by Autolycus on February 1, 2017 8:07PM
  • AlMcFly
    AlMcFly
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    sirston wrote: »
    Also you don't pay $15 a month for a magazine company to have them ship you the typical magazine, then change it to a where you have to pay $40 for a real magazine while you just get old magazines from last year now.
    And yes I know how shady business work's I've been involved with hedge funds in the past.

    You must not have subscribed to many magazines in the last 20 years. Magazines change their subscription prices all the time depending on the coupon or deal you find.
  • sirston
    sirston
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    AlMcFly wrote: »
    sirston wrote: »
    Also you don't pay $15 a month for a magazine company to have them ship you the typical magazine, then change it to a where you have to pay $40 for a real magazine while you just get old magazines from last year now.
    And yes I know how shady business work's I've been involved with hedge funds in the past.

    You must not have subscribed to many magazines in the last 20 years. Magazines change their subscription prices all the time depending on the coupon or deal you find.

    No it was an example if you want me to change the magazines to life saving medicine like epipens I could people have outrage.
    Whitestakes Revenge
    WoodElf Mag-Warden
    Sirston
    Magickia Dragonknight


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  • theivorykitty
    theivorykitty
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    Autolycus wrote: »
    And just to be clear: Along with virtually everyone else who chose a subscription (I presume), I took this into account when I chose to sub instead of purchasing outright. A major factor in that consideration was the knowledge the future content would be made available to us as long as we kept the sub. That's the reason we chose to "invest." Instead, we have spent 3x as much for... a crafting bag. I mean, I guess I get crowns, but they can't be used to purchase Morrowind now, can they? That alone would go a long way towards justifying this paywall.

    I've already mentioned in another post that I have no problem with an expansion. I have and will pay for expansions to a subscription-based game. That being said, I take issue with 2 aspects of this situation specifically:
    1. This is not what they advertised. ESO+ members should be accommodated in some way to offset the plain fact that we spend way more on this game than someone who purchases content outright. ESO+ was advertised and treated as a long-term investment from the start, and this model contradicts that concept. It's their rules, not ours. We just play by them because we want to support ZOS and the development of ESO.
    2. The future DLC after Morrowind... I see we have a dungeon DLC and a "content" DLC (whatever that is, I presume some base game updates like Homestead or One Tamriel that are available to everyone anyway). Where are those dungeons going to be? In Morrowind? How much future DLC content, the stuff that would normally be available to ESO+ members, is going to remain locked behind Morrowind? At most we can expect 2 more DLC this year, both of which are likely only a little pricier (if at all) than a month's subscription. How do they intend to justify the other 10-11 months of me subbing before the next "chapter" comes out and I have to pay for that too?

    Exactly. So much exactly.
    Edited by theivorykitty on February 1, 2017 8:26PM
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    sirston wrote: »
    AlMcFly wrote: »
    sirston wrote: »
    Also you don't pay $15 a month for a magazine company to have them ship you the typical magazine, then change it to a where you have to pay $40 for a real magazine while you just get old magazines from last year now.
    And yes I know how shady business work's I've been involved with hedge funds in the past.

    You must not have subscribed to many magazines in the last 20 years. Magazines change their subscription prices all the time depending on the coupon or deal you find.

    No it was an example if you want me to change the magazines to life saving medicine like epipens I could people have outrage.

    That sounds serious. If you think this example is valid to the presented concerns, you need to seek help. Being life dependant on MMO game is huge health risk.
    Autolycus wrote: »
    ...

    Subbing is never long term investment. Something that anyone can start and cancel anytime and gain every advantage anyone else has is not investment.
    Edited by SodanTok on February 1, 2017 8:28PM
  • DenMoria
    DenMoria
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    @stewhead2ub17_ESO : People bending over to every decision a developer and defending them makes it laughable too.

    People complaining about a purely optional thing and expecting to be catered to because they are a) cheap and b) entitled, is pretty laughable too.

    Play or don't. I doubt if Xeni really cares, as long as they make money.
  • DenMoria
    DenMoria
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    Turelus wrote: »
    Sausage wrote: »
    Greed keeps them float. Dont like to point out the obvious here.
    One can keep a good business model without losing their integrity and offending the player base.

    Okay well maybe not with this player base, we're offended by everything.

    Who's offended? Besides you, of course, and, who really cares if you're offended.
  • Jeremiah87
    Jeremiah87
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    Autolycus wrote: »
    AlMcFly wrote: »
    Could it not also be Greed that vast amounts of people want a good, produced by the hard work of others, be given to them for free? That, in my opinion, is far more greedy.

    It occurred to me, with this comment, that perhaps we should step back into Algebra 1 for a moment, for perspective.

    Let's see.... on November 21, 2013, I purchased the Imperial Edition of ESO for $80 USD. Then, when the game went live in March 2014, I began subbing. We'll call that April since it released at the end of the month. So, at $15 USD per month, since April 2014, I have spent $510 USD on subs alone. That's a combined investment of $590 USD.

    Let's add up all the of the DLCs.
    Shadows of the Hist (1500 Crowns) = $15 USD
    Dark Brotherhood (2000 Crowns) = $20 USD
    Thieves Guild (2000 Crowns) = $20 USD
    Orsinium (3000 Crowns) = $30 USD
    Imperial City (2500 Crowns) = $25 USD
    Total = $110 USD

    Don't forget to add in the Imperial Edition retail copy of the base game, which is $80 USD, for a grand total of $190.

    So, compared to someone who purchased the base game and every DLC outright, in lieu of a subscription, I have spent almost 3x as much. Do you want to explain to me how that equates to free?! You can't. Why? because that's not how math works.

    And just to be clear: Along with virtually everyone else who chose a subscription (I presume), I took this into account when I chose to sub instead of purchasing outright. A major factor in that consideration was the knowledge the future content would be made available to us as long as we kept the sub. That's the reason we chose to "invest." Instead, we have spent 3x as much for... a crafting bag. I mean, I guess I get crowns, but they can't be used to purchase Morrowind now, can they? That alone would go a long way towards justifying this paywall.

    I've already mentioned in another post that I have no problem with an expansion. I have and will pay for expansions to a subscription-based game. That being said, I take issue with 2 aspects of this situation specifically:
    1. This is not what they advertised. ESO+ members should be accommodated in some way to offset the plain fact that we spend way more on this game than someone who purchases content outright. ESO+ was advertised and treated as a long-term investment from the start, and this model contradicts that concept. It's their rules, not ours. We just play by them because we want to support ZOS and the development of ESO.
    2. The future DLC after Morrowind... I see we have a dungeon DLC and a "content" DLC (whatever that is, I presume some base game updates like Homestead or One Tamriel that are available to everyone anyway). Where are those dungeons going to be? In Morrowind? How much future DLC content, the stuff that would normally be available to ESO+ members, is going to remain locked behind Morrowind? At most we can expect 2 more DLC this year, both of which are likely only a little pricier (if at all) than a month's subscription. How do they intend to justify the other 10-11 months of me subbing before the next "chapter" comes out and I have to pay for that too?

    This idea you have in your head that we want things for free is flawed and ignorant. We've already paid for Morrowind 3 times over, in addition to the base game and all DLC. It's not free... I already invested in it. The absolute simplest way to please ESO+ members is to make Morrowind purchasable by crowns - and then? Viola! Problem solved. I can just use my sub money to buy Morrowind. Divines know it's not getting me anything else, except glorified retextures of stuff I already have.

    And to be super duper clear with you: I'm really friggin' excited for Morrowind. Aside from the underhanded paywall scheme they've got going on here, the update itself looks fantastic. I wouldn't be subbing to this game (nor would I ever have agreed to) if I didn't want to invest in ESO's future. Furthermore, I wouldn't have subbed to begin with if they had not promised me access to all future DLCs. Call this a "chapter" or an "expansion" or whatever you want, but for all intents and purposes, this is a bigger Orsinium with a new class. There's no doubt in my mind it's worth more than Orsinium, either. But I doubt it's worth the $60 + the other $200 I've already spent on subs that I can't use to purchase it.

    You have an very clear grasp on what the situation is like. Great and informative read. I agree wholeheartedly with being able to purchase Morrowind with crowns.
  • vyndral13preub18_ESO
    vyndral13preub18_ESO
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    AlMcFly wrote: »
    sirston wrote: »
    Also you don't pay $15 a month for a magazine company to have them ship you the typical magazine, then change it to a where you have to pay $40 for a real magazine while you just get old magazines from last year now.
    And yes I know how shady business work's I've been involved with hedge funds in the past.

    You must not have subscribed to many magazines in the last 20 years. Magazines change their subscription prices all the time depending on the coupon or deal you find.

    No one has subscribed to many magazines in the past 20 years! Well maybe old people...
    Edited by vyndral13preub18_ESO on February 1, 2017 8:35PM
  • Stopnaggin
    Stopnaggin
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    Turelus wrote: »
    BKTHNDR wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    BKTHNDR wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    Some of the Crown Store choices were greed. I don't believe RNG boxes (Crown Crates) have ever been in the benefit of the consumer.

    The expansion is normal for this genre and not really greedy, people are just using that to help augment their argument against the change in content accessibility.

    The crown store items are also all optional. In no way does anyone have an advantage over anyone else by having an expensive elk mount. Everything in the crown store helps the development team continue to support the game that you enjoy.
    I understand and I agree with that, I am perfectly fine with the Crown Store, what I am getting at is the Crates only.
    A buy what you want, when you want system is fair on everyone and lets people spend their money how they wish, RNG boxes in games are playing on players desires for one or two items but forcing them to spend more than those items are worth to obtain them due to a majority of the items being useless (consumables in ESO's case).

    And all of that is the player's choice to engage. We're not forced to buy crates. I've bought several of them. One: To support the development team through dollars and Two: because I wanted a shot at one of the lightning mounts (I have 2 of them). You can't fault the development team for offering aesthetic items in ways that will allow them to make a profit and continue to support the game. I get that it would be easier for us, the consumer, to just buy what we want. But from a business perspective, that works better for the developer and does not negative affect the gameplay for anyone, which I have no problem with.

    Again, it's fine to say players can choose to engage or not in these. However players are forced to engage with them to get items they desire. The "you don't have to" argument was fine when it was a standard "buy x or don't" but now all the players who were happy to buy x have to gamble and pay more for x.

    I am fine with them profiting and supporting the game. I have paid sub all of the time I've played, I have purchased numerous crown packs, I purchased the new expansion yesterday. I don't mind paying ZOS. What I mind is being made to jump through hoops and spend more money to attain items which they could have released as a "buy if you want it, don't if you don't" method.

    Now if I want to buy an item, I AM forced to buy crates. It makes ZOS seem greedy and continues to build on the feeling they only care about money and not their consumers, which I don't believe is entirely true but somewhere there is someone within ZOS who feels making more bucks is better than the integrity of offering a fair and friendly cash shop to their consumers.

    Sorry but you are not forced to buy anything. You choose to buy or not. It is a choice you and you alone make. I have never seen anyone held at gunpoint and forced to buy crates. Now I'm no fan of crates, and honestly a mount is a mount regardless of its skin. I bought 15 of them, did I recieve and equal monetary value? Yes I did, did I get an apex mount, nope. No more crates for me. And that's fine, it's my choice.

    Now onto the rest of the topic. I sub, I get crowns and access to dlc. I was never promised everything was going to be free. I was told to expect quarterly updates, not specifically dlc. And so far they have been pretty close. Now I never though about how much I spend as its my hobby. But let's take a look and try and add a little perspective. I bought the base game for $60 US, did I recieve a value, well I got well over 60 hours of game play so for less than 1 dollar per hour I got alot of entertainment. Now I also sub, do I get more than 15 hours of playtime per month? Yes I do, so still under 1 dollar per hour. And as an added bonus I get crowns, dlc, exp and a gold and crafting boost. So do I get my money's worth? That is very subjective, everyone sees different value. Will I get 40 hours of enjoyment from the new expansion, most assuredly. So the only overlap would be my sub on top of the initial $40 for the expansion. So what would be the ideal cost for the entertainment I recieve? Less than 1 dollar per hour seems pretty damn good for me.

    Same goes for housing. Will I get my money's worth, I will, but not everyone will. I know people like to compare housing, mounts and motifs to dlc. To me it not a fair comparison. More people buy dlc better for the game, lower prices better for the player to get into the game. Do you need a 5k mount to play? Do you need that dromathra motif, which seems another sore subject. 6k for a motif with mimic stones is roughly the same price as previous in game motifs offered in the store. You want it easy and fast, you pay for it. To me, and just an observation on.my part, everthing available in the crownstore that is also available in game is much higher. This is fine by me as I will play the game to get those items. That way my time farming motifs and such isn't diminished.
  • Vanthras79
    Vanthras79
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    So greed, for a lack of better words, is good?
    Norion Germain - Telvanni Wizard, Covenant Battle Mage, Mage's Guild Magister, Resident of Daggerfall Overlook, Lord of Tel Galen, Psijic Monk, Antiquarian, Breton Scholar, and Traveler.

  • stewhead2ub17_ESO
    stewhead2ub17_ESO
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    @Jim_Pipp " I am not trying to argue with you but i dont understand what you are objecting too. In my post (the next line after your quote) I state that many players are happy, but a proportion aren't.
    What I was trying to put across is that there are a range of opinions, and the future success of eso depends on keeping as many people happy (and spending) as possible. My point is that we need to listen to people who are unhappy and not dismiss each other with simplistic answers like 'it's a business!' or 'just don't buy them' or 'stop saying greedy'. So in the spirit of constructive discussion, what do you disagree with?"

    I don't necessarily disagree with you here, nor was I trying to be "dismissive" as I stated I certainly understand why some people are angry with the situation and announcement. Inherently I disagree with people accusing companies of "Greed" for trying to make money. Especially on things that are not necessary or essential to the experience, but are merely an option for the consumer. Though I will say that sometimes simplistic answers like "it's a business, or just don't buy them" are certainly applicable.
    Edited by stewhead2ub17_ESO on February 1, 2017 8:58PM
  • Oompuh
    Oompuh
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    They changed thieir DLC model, if you don't like it, unsubscribe and get the dlc you want individually. I don't see the need for 5 pages of argument about it.
    Xbox NA - Oompa
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  • gard
    gard
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    Iselin wrote: »
    No, lets call it what it is. GREED
    Greedy people wanting full access to whole new big expansion for merely ~12 bucks a month.

    That's called playing by their rules, They started this whole "get all DLC free with sub" thing. We didn't.

    To anyone other than a blind fanboy re-branding largish DLC as "Chapters" or "Expansions" IS a change.

    No, it;'s not a change. It's an ALTERATION. Silly.
    My wife complains that I never listen to her. (Or something like that.)
    -- I'm a one man smurf zerg!

    My ESO addons:
    Midnight - Find out when midnight is so that you can check for ww/vamp spawn.
    Goto - Adds a tab to the map pane allowing you to teleport to a friend, guildmate, or groupmate for free.
  • nova.terratrb14_ESO
    They're calling it an expansion, but its ONE *** ZONE.

    60$ gets you all of Tamriel + All DLC minus Shadows.

    40$ gets you ONE ZONE. ONE. ONE ZONE. ITS AN EXPANSION WITH 1. ONE. UNO. ZONE.

    This should be a 5$ expansion.
    Edited by nova.terratrb14_ESO on February 1, 2017 9:47PM
  • AlMcFly
    AlMcFly
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    gard wrote: »
    Iselin wrote: »
    No, lets call it what it is. GREED
    Greedy people wanting full access to whole new big expansion for merely ~12 bucks a month.

    That's called playing by their rules, They started this whole "get all DLC free with sub" thing. We didn't.

    To anyone other than a blind fanboy re-branding largish DLC as "Chapters" or "Expansions" IS a change.

    No, it;'s not a change. It's an ALTERATION. Silly.

    It's not an alteration. It's an ADJUSTMENT...silly... :D
  • DenMoria
    DenMoria
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    They're calling it an expansion, but its ONE *** ZONE.

    60$ gets you all of Tamriel + All DLC minus Shadows.

    40$ gets you ONE ZONE. ONE. ONE ZONE. ITS AN EXPANSION WITH 1. ONE. UNO. ZONE.

    This should be a 5$ expansion.

    So pay the measly monthly fee and get it included. Stop being cheap. And when are you from that anything cost you $5 in a video game anymore?
  • DenMoria
    DenMoria
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    Oompuh wrote: »
    They changed thieir DLC model, if you don't like it, unsubscribe and get the dlc you want individually. I don't see the need for 5 pages of argument about it.

    That's what I've been trying to say, but, apparently, I am wrong and I am being royally sc***** by ZOS and should quit and then shout it to the high heavens.

    Frankly, I don't have the energy.
  • gard
    gard
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    AlMcFly wrote: »
    gard wrote: »
    Iselin wrote: »
    No, lets call it what it is. GREED
    Greedy people wanting full access to whole new big expansion for merely ~12 bucks a month.

    That's called playing by their rules, They started this whole "get all DLC free with sub" thing. We didn't.

    To anyone other than a blind fanboy re-branding largish DLC as "Chapters" or "Expansions" IS a change.

    No, it;'s not a change. It's an ALTERATION. Silly.

    It's not an alteration. It's an ADJUSTMENT...silly... :D

    Adjustment is so last week! It's a modification. Entirely different than an adjustment.
    My wife complains that I never listen to her. (Or something like that.)
    -- I'm a one man smurf zerg!

    My ESO addons:
    Midnight - Find out when midnight is so that you can check for ww/vamp spawn.
    Goto - Adds a tab to the map pane allowing you to teleport to a friend, guildmate, or groupmate for free.
  • FleetwoodSmack
    FleetwoodSmack
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    AlMcFly wrote: »
    Iselin wrote: »
    AlMcFly wrote: »
    Could it not also be Greed that vast amounts of people want a good, produced by the hard work of others, be given to them for free? That, in my opinion, is far more greedy.

    Subs were free? I'll have to call Visa right away and ask them to look into those recurring charges from the past 3 years... thanks!

    That's something that people aren't wanting to realize, and probably don't sub themselves.

    Now those that do sub and defend it? Probably haven't been subbing all that long and those who have understand and sympathize while disagreeing. However this whole political crap injected into the argument like a lot of people are doing? I'd love to see them manage a playerbase using the same mentality.

    Considering you get 1500 Crowns per month, a value of $15, as result of your $15 per month subscription, YES, everything outside of that 1500 Crowns is essentially given to you for free. The craft bag is free. DLC's are free. Yes, all of these complaint threads are asking to receive Morrowind for free. Your argument is moot.

    You didn't read the post, did you? Where on earth did I say that I wanted Morrowind for free? Assumptions are strong in your arguments and it's not making your position look ANY better. I couldn't care less that it costs 40 bucks to get, if you actually LOOKED at other threads, you'd have seen that.

    My issues are;
    • Proposed balance, despite them saying the same thing when DLCs started to drop. Where's the balance?
    • Performance fixes, despite them saying they'd fix it after every DLC; we're now starting to lag through trials.
    • Increased dialogue from developers to the playerbase; big game moves with cloak and dagger ethics lead to this saltfest. They've promised this through several periods of time during DLC drops.
    • Fixing issues within customer support; Still getting nonsense from ChetBot.
    • Along with the dialogue, they've also promised a wider forum presence, yet Matt Firor hasn't posted very much in the last TWO YEARS.

    The list goes on and on. My qualms with the expansion? They haven't fixed what they broke in the first place. You want me to be optimistic about it? Sorry. We must be playing two different games. :wink:
    Edited by FleetwoodSmack on February 1, 2017 10:11PM
    Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies!
  • AlMcFly
    AlMcFly
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    AlMcFly wrote: »

    Considering you get 1500 Crowns per month, a value of $15, as result of your $15 per month subscription, YES, everything outside of that 1500 Crowns is essentially given to you for free. The craft bag is free. DLC's are free. Yes, all of these complaint threads are asking to receive Morrowind for free. Your argument is moot.

    You didn't read the post, did you? Where on earth did I say that I wanted Morrowind for free? Assumptions are strong in your arguments and it's not making your position look ANY better. I couldn't care less that it costs 40 bucks to get, if you actually LOOKED at other threads, you'd have seen that.

    My issues are;
    • Proposed balance, despite them saying the same thing when DLCs started to drop. Where's the balance?
    • Performance fixes, despite them saying they'd fix it after every DLC; we're now starting to lag through trials.
    • Increased dialogue from developers to the playerbase; big game moves with cloak and dagger ethics lead to this saltfest. They've promised this through several periods of time during DLC drops.
    • Fixing issues within customer support; Still getting nonsense from ChetBot.
    • Along with the dialogue, they've also promised a wider forum presence, yet Matt Firor hasn't posted very much in the last TWO YEARS.

    The list goes on and on. My qualms with the expansion? They haven't fixed what they broke in the first place. You want me to be optimistic about it? Sorry. We must be playing two different games. :wink:

    You use the word "assumption", though there are zero assumptions in my post. There are "opinions" and "perspectives" in my post, no assumptions. From my point of view, you complainers are asking to get Morrowind for free. I explained in the post why I have that perspective.

    Your argument is thus: "I am unhappy with W, X, Y, Z; thus, because I am unhappy with those, I don't think ZOS is justified to charge extra for Morrowind." In summary, you are unhappy that ESO+ subscribers aren't getting Morrowind for free. Convolute the words all you want, it's still a basic b**** argument.
  • DenMoria
    DenMoria
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    AlMcFly wrote: »
    Iselin wrote: »
    AlMcFly wrote: »
    Could it not also be Greed that vast amounts of people want a good, produced by the hard work of others, be given to them for free? That, in my opinion, is far more greedy.

    Subs were free? I'll have to call Visa right away and ask them to look into those recurring charges from the past 3 years... thanks!

    That's something that people aren't wanting to realize, and probably don't sub themselves.

    Now those that do sub and defend it? Probably haven't been subbing all that long and those who have understand and sympathize while disagreeing. However this whole political crap injected into the argument like a lot of people are doing? I'd love to see them manage a playerbase using the same mentality.

    Considering you get 1500 Crowns per month, a value of $15, as result of your $15 per month subscription, YES, everything outside of that 1500 Crowns is essentially given to you for free. The craft bag is free. DLC's are free. Yes, all of these complaint threads are asking to receive Morrowind for free. Your argument is moot.

    You didn't read the post, did you? Where on earth did I say that I wanted Morrowind for free? Assumptions are strong in your arguments and it's not making your position look ANY better. I couldn't care less that it costs 40 bucks to get, if you actually LOOKED at other threads, you'd have seen that.

    My issues are;
    • Proposed balance, despite them saying the same thing when DLCs started to drop. Where's the balance?
    • Performance fixes, despite them saying they'd fix it after every DLC; we're now starting to lag through trials.
    • Increased dialogue from developers to the playerbase; big game moves with cloak and dagger ethics lead to this saltfest. They've promised this through several periods of time during DLC drops.
    • Fixing issues within customer support; Still getting nonsense from ChetBot.
    • Along with the dialogue, they've also promised a wider forum presence, yet Matt Firor hasn't posted very much in the last TWO YEARS.

    The list goes on and on. My qualms with the expansion? They haven't fixed what they broke in the first place. You want me to be optimistic about it? Sorry. We must be playing two different games. :wink:

    Proposed balance - and who defines what the balance is? Every time a balance fix is put in to place, somebody complains that it isn't balanced
    Performance fixes - sure, the servers (which they admit in Cyrodil and IC are pretty bad), but, what other fixes?
    Increased dialogue - ???? so that people like you who complain about everything can barrage them with junk? Can't really blame them
    Customer support - okay, I'll give you that one. It's been pretty bad.
    Wider Forum Presence - ??? Just look at the forums. How many threads have they been in and contributed to? Just on the front page I can count about 10. That's pretty good actually.

    All in all, it's YOU. YOU are not satisfied and feel that YOU should be catered to.

    I give up on you people and this type of threads. You will never be satisfied. If the fix one thing, it's not what you wanted and you'll complain. If they give you what you want, you want something else. If they "balance" something, it's not the balance you want.

    As I've said repeatedly. There is an elite group of players that seem to think that the entire game revolves around them and that only they should be satisfied. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is for so many of us players (and I can only go by what we, in my group of 73 players are saying) to try to ignore all of you? We can't play PvP because of you. We can't join any high-level groups because of people like you and your "expectation" and bully tactics. What do you want? Do you want those of us that play to have fun, not compete the heck out of everything and attempt to be the "Gods of ESO" to just quit?

    I wash my hands of you sir (or madam, it's hard to tell).
  • esotoon
    esotoon
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    Oompuh wrote: »
    They changed thieir DLC model, if you don't like it, unsubscribe and get the dlc you want individually. I don't see the need for 5 pages of argument about it.

    Now we have the information, we can indeed make an informed decision and unsub if we longer see the value in ESO+. The problem is, they have been taking our subscription money for the past 6 months, whilst still leaving us under the impression that we would be getting access to 4 DLCs a year, as part of it's value. This change wasn't decided this morning, it has been known about for a long time but they have happily been taking our money and not delivering the goods. I don't know about you, but that sounds a little off to me.
  • FleetwoodSmack
    FleetwoodSmack
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    AlMcFly wrote: »
    AlMcFly wrote: »

    Considering you get 1500 Crowns per month, a value of $15, as result of your $15 per month subscription, YES, everything outside of that 1500 Crowns is essentially given to you for free. The craft bag is free. DLC's are free. Yes, all of these complaint threads are asking to receive Morrowind for free. Your argument is moot.

    You didn't read the post, did you? Where on earth did I say that I wanted Morrowind for free? Assumptions are strong in your arguments and it's not making your position look ANY better. I couldn't care less that it costs 40 bucks to get, if you actually LOOKED at other threads, you'd have seen that.

    My issues are;
    • Proposed balance, despite them saying the same thing when DLCs started to drop. Where's the balance?
    • Performance fixes, despite them saying they'd fix it after every DLC; we're now starting to lag through trials.
    • Increased dialogue from developers to the playerbase; big game moves with cloak and dagger ethics lead to this saltfest. They've promised this through several periods of time during DLC drops.
    • Fixing issues within customer support; Still getting nonsense from ChetBot.
    • Along with the dialogue, they've also promised a wider forum presence, yet Matt Firor hasn't posted very much in the last TWO YEARS.

    The list goes on and on. My qualms with the expansion? They haven't fixed what they broke in the first place. You want me to be optimistic about it? Sorry. We must be playing two different games. :wink:

    You use the word "assumption", though there are zero assumptions in my post. There are "opinions" and "perspectives" in my post, no assumptions. From my point of view, you complainers are asking to get Morrowind for free. I explained in the post why I have that perspective.

    Your argument is thus: "I am unhappy with W, X, Y, Z; thus, because I am unhappy with those, I don't think ZOS is justified to charge extra for Morrowind." In summary, you are unhappy that ESO+ subscribers aren't getting Morrowind for free. Convolute the words all you want, it's still a basic b**** argument.
    DenMoria wrote: »
    AlMcFly wrote: »
    Iselin wrote: »
    AlMcFly wrote: »
    Could it not also be Greed that vast amounts of people want a good, produced by the hard work of others, be given to them for free? That, in my opinion, is far more greedy.

    Subs were free? I'll have to call Visa right away and ask them to look into those recurring charges from the past 3 years... thanks!

    That's something that people aren't wanting to realize, and probably don't sub themselves.

    Now those that do sub and defend it? Probably haven't been subbing all that long and those who have understand and sympathize while disagreeing. However this whole political crap injected into the argument like a lot of people are doing? I'd love to see them manage a playerbase using the same mentality.

    Considering you get 1500 Crowns per month, a value of $15, as result of your $15 per month subscription, YES, everything outside of that 1500 Crowns is essentially given to you for free. The craft bag is free. DLC's are free. Yes, all of these complaint threads are asking to receive Morrowind for free. Your argument is moot.

    You didn't read the post, did you? Where on earth did I say that I wanted Morrowind for free? Assumptions are strong in your arguments and it's not making your position look ANY better. I couldn't care less that it costs 40 bucks to get, if you actually LOOKED at other threads, you'd have seen that.

    My issues are;
    • Proposed balance, despite them saying the same thing when DLCs started to drop. Where's the balance?
    • Performance fixes, despite them saying they'd fix it after every DLC; we're now starting to lag through trials.
    • Increased dialogue from developers to the playerbase; big game moves with cloak and dagger ethics lead to this saltfest. They've promised this through several periods of time during DLC drops.
    • Fixing issues within customer support; Still getting nonsense from ChetBot.
    • Along with the dialogue, they've also promised a wider forum presence, yet Matt Firor hasn't posted very much in the last TWO YEARS.

    The list goes on and on. My qualms with the expansion? They haven't fixed what they broke in the first place. You want me to be optimistic about it? Sorry. We must be playing two different games. :wink:

    Proposed balance - and who defines what the balance is? Every time a balance fix is put in to place, somebody complains that it isn't balanced
    Performance fixes - sure, the servers (which they admit in Cyrodil and IC are pretty bad), but, what other fixes?
    Increased dialogue - ???? so that people like you who complain about everything can barrage them with junk? Can't really blame them
    Customer support - okay, I'll give you that one. It's been pretty bad.
    Wider Forum Presence - ??? Just look at the forums. How many threads have they been in and contributed to? Just on the front page I can count about 10. That's pretty good actually.

    All in all, it's YOU. YOU are not satisfied and feel that YOU should be catered to.

    I give up on you people and this type of threads. You will never be satisfied. If the fix one thing, it's not what you wanted and you'll complain. If they give you what you want, you want something else. If they "balance" something, it's not the balance you want.

    As I've said repeatedly. There is an elite group of players that seem to think that the entire game revolves around them and that only they should be satisfied. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is for so many of us players (and I can only go by what we, in my group of 73 players are saying) to try to ignore all of you? We can't play PvP because of you. We can't join any high-level groups because of people like you and your "expectation" and bully tactics. What do you want? Do you want those of us that play to have fun, not compete the heck out of everything and attempt to be the "Gods of ESO" to just quit?

    I wash my hands of you sir (or madam, it's hard to tell).

    I want both of you to state where exactly I'm demanding it for 'free'. Else, you're both assuming.

    If I'm some kind of monster for expecting better from a company that SHOULD be doing what they say, then that must be illogical.

    As for threads to that second person (I really can't be bothered to read your approach since it's something THEY SAID, not me), it's exactly that. They said it. Not me. Soooo? LOL button?

    Edit: I could care less about your pointless ESO+ squabbling. It's an expansion. I GET IT. I. DON'T. CARE. I'm not arguing that. Take your blinders off for two seconds and you'd see that. I'm pointing out that blindly defending them isn't constructive either. But unfortunately, you won't get that because you don't understand ethic. Good luck with that! :D

    Edit 2: Also if I have to talk about performance fixes, we're going to be here all damn day. If you actually PLAY the game, you'd know this.
    Edited by FleetwoodSmack on February 1, 2017 10:32PM
    Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies!
  • Elsonso
    Elsonso
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Autolycus wrote: »
    AlMcFly wrote: »
    Could it not also be Greed that vast amounts of people want a good, produced by the hard work of others, be given to them for free? That, in my opinion, is far more greedy.

    It occurred to me, with this comment, that perhaps we should step back into Algebra 1 for a moment, for perspective.

    Let's see.... on November 21, 2013, I purchased the Imperial Edition of ESO for $80 USD. Then, when the game went live in March 2014, I began subbing. We'll call that April since it released at the end of the month. So, at $15 USD per month, since April 2014, I have spent $510 USD on subs alone. That's a combined investment of $590 USD.

    Uh, April 2014 was part of the "free 30 days", which ended up being the "free 35 days". We did not need to start paying a subscription until like May 5. You need to subtract $15 from your subscription total.
    Autolycus wrote: »
    2. The future DLC after Morrowind... I see we have a dungeon DLC and a "content" DLC (whatever that is, I presume some base game updates like Homestead or One Tamriel that are available to everyone anyway). Where are those dungeons going to be? In Morrowind? How much future DLC content, the stuff that would normally be available to ESO+ members, is going to remain locked behind Morrowind? At most we can expect 2 more DLC this year, both of which are likely only a little pricier (if at all) than a month's subscription. How do they intend to justify the other 10-11 months of me subbing before the next "chapter" comes out and I have to pay for that too?

    At this time, there is no reason to believe that any of the coming DLC will require Morrowind.
    Autolycus wrote: »
    This idea you have in your head that we want things for free is flawed and ignorant. We've already paid for Morrowind 3 times over, in addition to the base game and all DLC. It's not free... I already invested in it. The absolute simplest way to please ESO+ members is to make Morrowind purchasable by crowns - and then? Viola! Problem solved. I can just use my sub money to buy Morrowind. Divines know it's not getting me anything else, except glorified retextures of stuff I already have.

    I would be happy with a substantial discount, in addition to the pre-order and other swag, for ESO Plus members that have been continually subscribed for the 12 months prior to purchase, or even a set percentage discount for each continuous prior month, up to 100%.

    I don't mind paying for the Chapter. The problem is continuing to pay for ESO Plus. They really need to do something with Morrowind to make ESO Plus worth my time, and as this is a Chapter, more than the trifles they have been doing in Updates.


    ESO Plus: No
    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
    XBox EU/NA: @ElsonsoJannus
    X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus
  • FleetwoodSmack
    FleetwoodSmack
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    Autolycus wrote: »
    AlMcFly wrote: »
    Could it not also be Greed that vast amounts of people want a good, produced by the hard work of others, be given to them for free? That, in my opinion, is far more greedy.

    It occurred to me, with this comment, that perhaps we should step back into Algebra 1 for a moment, for perspective.

    Let's see.... on November 21, 2013, I purchased the Imperial Edition of ESO for $80 USD. Then, when the game went live in March 2014, I began subbing. We'll call that April since it released at the end of the month. So, at $15 USD per month, since April 2014, I have spent $510 USD on subs alone. That's a combined investment of $590 USD.

    Uh, April 2014 was part of the "free 30 days", which ended up being the "free 35 days". We did not need to start paying a subscription until like May 5. You need to subtract $15 from your subscription total.
    Autolycus wrote: »
    2. The future DLC after Morrowind... I see we have a dungeon DLC and a "content" DLC (whatever that is, I presume some base game updates like Homestead or One Tamriel that are available to everyone anyway). Where are those dungeons going to be? In Morrowind? How much future DLC content, the stuff that would normally be available to ESO+ members, is going to remain locked behind Morrowind? At most we can expect 2 more DLC this year, both of which are likely only a little pricier (if at all) than a month's subscription. How do they intend to justify the other 10-11 months of me subbing before the next "chapter" comes out and I have to pay for that too?

    At this time, there is no reason to believe that any of the coming DLC will require Morrowind.
    Autolycus wrote: »
    This idea you have in your head that we want things for free is flawed and ignorant. We've already paid for Morrowind 3 times over, in addition to the base game and all DLC. It's not free... I already invested in it. The absolute simplest way to please ESO+ members is to make Morrowind purchasable by crowns - and then? Viola! Problem solved. I can just use my sub money to buy Morrowind. Divines know it's not getting me anything else, except glorified retextures of stuff I already have.

    I would be happy with a substantial discount, in addition to the pre-order and other swag, for ESO Plus members that have been continually subscribed for the 12 months prior to purchase, or even a set percentage discount for each continuous prior month, up to 100%.

    I don't mind paying for the Chapter.
    The problem is continuing to pay for ESO Plus. They really need to do something with Morrowind to make ESO Plus worth my time, and as this is a Chapter, more than the trifles they have been doing in Updates.


    Pretty much that. I don't even mind the price, considering loads of other games of old had the price. However I think the problem is a little deeper as ESO doesn't know what kind of monetization method would maximize profits. I mean we get 1500 crowns base a month for 15 bucks. We've had sale after sale after sale on crowns. So the profit of crowns is pretty much at an astronomical low. That's why we're seeing expensive houses (it's not just about the title), a lot of crown store exclusive content prices being raised along with existing (hello Elk mount and Dro-m'Athra motif!), and a slew of other things (Crown Crates).

    So I find the price fair, but I find that it's sort of making ESO+ obsolete in terms of storage. Sub for a month, stuff the bag, unsub. I do feel like they may include different rewards eventually for those of us subbing, but really I feel that they're spreading themselves too thin- promising more than they can deliver, especially with the current state of the development team. Maybe they can get some hires in from it. *Shrug*
    Edited by FleetwoodSmack on February 1, 2017 11:06PM
    Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies!
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Autolycus wrote: »
    AlMcFly wrote: »
    Could it not also be Greed that vast amounts of people want a good, produced by the hard work of others, be given to them for free? That, in my opinion, is far more greedy.

    It occurred to me, with this comment, that perhaps we should step back into Algebra 1 for a moment, for perspective.

    Let's see.... on November 21, 2013, I purchased the Imperial Edition of ESO for $80 USD. Then, when the game went live in March 2014, I began subbing. We'll call that April since it released at the end of the month. So, at $15 USD per month, since April 2014, I have spent $510 USD on subs alone. That's a combined investment of $590 USD.

    Uh, April 2014 was part of the "free 30 days", which ended up being the "free 35 days". We did not need to start paying a subscription until like May 5. You need to subtract $15 from your subscription total.

    I recognize your point, but it's such a trivial difference it doesn't really matter.
    Autolycus wrote: »
    2. The future DLC after Morrowind... I see we have a dungeon DLC and a "content" DLC (whatever that is, I presume some base game updates like Homestead or One Tamriel that are available to everyone anyway). Where are those dungeons going to be? In Morrowind? How much future DLC content, the stuff that would normally be available to ESO+ members, is going to remain locked behind Morrowind? At most we can expect 2 more DLC this year, both of which are likely only a little pricier (if at all) than a month's subscription. How do they intend to justify the other 10-11 months of me subbing before the next "chapter" comes out and I have to pay for that too?

    At this time, there is no reason to believe that any of the coming DLC will require Morrowind.

    Actually, I think they said Q3 dungeon update would be in Morrowind. Perhaps I'm mistaken, and noone has to take my word for this of course. Even if I'm wrong, I still think we have reason to suspect this is the case. Shadows of the Hist dungeons were not available to anyone who didn't buy the update, and those dungeons are even in base game zones. Same with IC dungeons. With those we, as ESO+ members, were granted access. If the dungeons are not in Morrowind, then maybe ESO+ members will get access to those without purchasing the expansion. Seems unlikely imho.
    Autolycus wrote: »
    This idea you have in your head that we want things for free is flawed and ignorant. We've already paid for Morrowind 3 times over, in addition to the base game and all DLC. It's not free... I already invested in it. The absolute simplest way to please ESO+ members is to make Morrowind purchasable by crowns - and then? Viola! Problem solved. I can just use my sub money to buy Morrowind. Divines know it's not getting me anything else, except glorified retextures of stuff I already have.

    I would be happy with a substantial discount, in addition to the pre-order and other swag, for ESO Plus members that have been continually subscribed for the 12 months prior to purchase, or even a set percentage discount for each continuous prior month, up to 100%.

    I don't mind paying for the Chapter. The problem is continuing to pay for ESO Plus. They really need to do something with Morrowind to make ESO Plus worth my time, and as this is a Chapter, more than the trifles they have been doing in Updates.

    Yes, I agree wholeheartedly on the outlook of ESO+ going forward. But I'm just as concerned about the fact that I've already paid for Morrowind 3x over in subscriptions above and beyond the base game and all DLC. I can't even use the crowns I get from my sub to buy the DLC I was promised when I subbed. A discount would be a start, but we deserve a better for what we've already paid into it, relative to what we've gotten back in return.

    I come from a background of MMOs that release annual expansions - I'm not a stranger to the concept and not inherently opposed to it (I have no problem buying an expansion as a concept in and of itself). But, those games didn't tell me that my sub would pay for it and then require a purchase anyway. There's a difference. The subscription to those games also came with a LOT more benefits, like a real support team, for example. In ESO, I'm lucky if I can get a reply within weeks for simple fixes. I've had friends stuck between invisible walls for days, or stuck in loading screen limbo for weeks even, for lack of support. That's one example, and there are plenty.
    Edited by Autolycus on February 2, 2017 4:42PM
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