Stop calling it "Greed"

Ourorboros

How much does it cost to run a game like ESO? I've posted several times that zos has got to be making at least $10 million a month just from subscriptions, and that is assuming only 10% subscription rate. How many players do you know without a craft bag? So unless the game expense is over $10 million, then zos IS making money, likely a lot of it. How do you explain a monthly income this large in a game that has bugs that have never been fixed along with constant new ones, and server issues, and lag except by saying the income is not being spent to fix issues. What do you call it if money is spent developing new content that we must still pay for? It sounds like greed to me.

The_Protagonist

@stewhead2ub17_ESO
White here refers to the self righteous feeling one experiences when defending someone/thing

@jedtb16_ESO
Or probably a snowflake in shinning armor

I do admit that there is far too much salt than usual in the forum over expansion not= DLC, it does seem a little greedy, and ever since the game has become B2P, the subscribers have only had the craft bag as an advantage. I am also a little disappointed, still I have pre-ordered the collector's upgrade.

Calling greed, not greed just because you are excited about the expansion makes us all feel that someone is literally barfing rainbows in excitement.

But judging ZOS for it so soon is not very prudent either in my opinion, I would wait a little while before facts themselves clearly show that all businesses are at the end of the day greedy as ever. Then I will join the band in the salt mine myself.

Juhasow

I dont understand. Zenimax showed lot of mercy by just making Morrowind expansion 1 time purchase and not forcing us to also have ESO+ membership active to enter there....

leothedino

The_Protagonist wrote: »

Huh What? Oh another whiteknight from ZOS

Nothing to see here, move on.

So people can't also have opinions like you do? You want to yammer on about how self-entitled you are, but sprout insanity when people feel otherwise about it? They can't publicly profess their thoughts on the matter, like you do? You clearly have nothing useful to say.

Graydon

If $40 is unaffordable then it's time to re-evaluate and make some serious life changes.

If the $40 is all about principle, then don't buy the game.

That will demonstrate your displeasure wiih ZOS.

I've never seen such a pile of beggars demanding the fruits and efforts of somebody else's labor for free.

The_Protagonist

leothedino wrote: »

The_Protagonist wrote: »

Huh What? Oh another whiteknight from ZOS

Nothing to see here, move on.

So people can't also have opinions like you do? You want to yammer on about how self-entitled you are, but sprout insanity when people feel otherwise about it? They can't publicly profess their thoughts on the matter, like you do? You clearly have nothing useful to say.

You look a little hot in your statement here, are you feeling okay? Take a deep breath, right, okay.

Comments like these are common in forums and are intended more as funny way of showing that we don't agree.

And do remember that this is a forum, no one (except a Mod) can stop anyone from expressing their opinions, not you, not me.

If you are stating that I do not agree that I can disagree, then, kindly reassess the source of self entitlement, hint: look into a mirror.

Using your own logic, I am publicly expressing my opinion just like everyone else.

Nothing useful to say...That's your opinion, no, sorry, your judgement. Please show us a part in your statement that is useful.

Majic

Maybe it's not greed.

Maybe it's need.

The_Protagonist

Majic wrote: »

Maybe it's not greed.

Maybe it's need.

I'd agree with this. Nicely said.

Mashille

*COUGH* Breton Hero Costume *COUGH*

I wasn't really coughing

Edit: I'm still not letting that go.

BKTHNDR

Turelus wrote: »

Some of the Crown Store choices were greed. I don't believe RNG boxes (Crown Crates) have ever been in the benefit of the consumer.

The expansion is normal for this genre and not really greedy, people are just using that to help augment their argument against the change in content accessibility.

The crown store items are also all optional. In no way does anyone have an advantage over anyone else by having an expensive elk mount. Everything in the crown store helps the development team continue to support the game that you enjoy.

The_Protagonist

Mr_Apollo wrote: »

Yeah...sure, heres an idea, lets release 2 good DLCs, and then make the rest of the DLCs crap and pretty small, and ya know what? Lets bring a DLC, but wait, lets call it Expansion pack so people don't get us in trouble. Lets also forget all of the more important problems we have with the base game and actually implement it this year. And, lets charge £40 for it and subscribers cant actually get it for free.

Wouldn't that cause issues?

Yeah, but who cares

They can always resell horse armor again.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Turelus

BKTHNDR wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Some of the Crown Store choices were greed. I don't believe RNG boxes (Crown Crates) have ever been in the benefit of the consumer.

The expansion is normal for this genre and not really greedy, people are just using that to help augment their argument against the change in content accessibility.

The crown store items are also all optional. In no way does anyone have an advantage over anyone else by having an expensive elk mount. Everything in the crown store helps the development team continue to support the game that you enjoy.

I understand and I agree with that, I am perfectly fine with the Crown Store, what I am getting at is the Crates only.
A buy what you want, when you want system is fair on everyone and lets people spend their money how they wish, RNG boxes in games are playing on players desires for one or two items but forcing them to spend more than those items are worth to obtain them due to a majority of the items being useless (consumables in ESO's case).

The_Protagonist

Spectral_Lord wrote: »

The_Protagonist wrote: »

Mr_Apollo wrote: »

Yeah...sure, heres an idea, lets release 2 good DLCs, and then make the rest of the DLCs crap and pretty small, and ya know what? Lets bring a DLC, but wait, lets call it Expansion pack so people don't get us in trouble. Lets also forget all of the more important problems we have with the base game and actually implement it this year. And, lets charge £40 for it and subscribers cant actually get it for free.

Wouldn't that cause issues?

Yeah, but who cares

They can always resell horse armor again.

Ain't nobody buyin' that.

Exactly what should have happened, but people kept on buying it till 2011.

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/system-wars-314159282/bethesda-says-people-are-still-buying-horse-armor-28193768/

Unsent.Soul

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

stewhead2ub17_ESO wrote: »

@vyndral13preub18_ESO

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Oh i don't know. It is almost like they held back stuff and didnt release it as dlc so they could package it all together, call it an expansion and sell it. That sort of sounds like greed. But fine, we will just call it goood business.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't feel at all as if "they held stuff back". We're talking about a whole new continent to explore and more! And surely, you wouldn't argue that just the base game isn't large enough for a B2P title, I would hope.

It is the and more. Most of it has been shown off years ago at different events. The battlegrounds, clockwork, the warden... all seen years ago. Now attached to a dlc so it can be 'more', it can be an expansion!

Sure maybe it just all came together and got done at the same time. Or this has always been a goal so this was always going to happen. Either way i dont really see it as greedy. Sort of seems like it. But nothing crazy. To me the crates are much worse then this. It is what it is. I just dont agree with it.

This pretty much...

Woeler

But mommy told me I can have anything I want in life! I'm special. ZOS give me that content I am entitled to having!

/s

Paincake

Turelus wrote: »

Some of the Crown Store choices were greed. I don't believe RNG boxes (Crown Crates) have ever been in the benefit of the consumer.

Anyone who chose to purchase said boxes cannot claim they were "greedy" because they willingly engaged in a contract (and I've seen an awful lot of lightning mounts running around). Whether or not something benefits the consumer is a judgement to be made on a per-consumer basis because it's ultimately the consumer that decides, not you or I. Stop acting judgmental and let individuals make their own decisions / judgments.

FearlessOne_2014

Turelus wrote: »

BKTHNDR wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Some of the Crown Store choices were greed. I don't believe RNG boxes (Crown Crates) have ever been in the benefit of the consumer.

The expansion is normal for this genre and not really greedy, people are just using that to help augment their argument against the change in content accessibility.

The crown store items are also all optional. In no way does anyone have an advantage over anyone else by having an expensive elk mount. Everything in the crown store helps the development team continue to support the game that you enjoy.

I understand and I agree with that, I am perfectly fine with the Crown Store, what I am getting at is the Crates only.
A buy what you want, when you want system is fair on everyone and lets people spend their money how they wish, RNG boxes in games are playing on players desires for one or two items but forcing them to spend more than those items are worth to obtain them due to a majority of the items being useless (consumables in ESO's case).

What? I got a this camel free of charge. So where is the fault at. Normally I would be the one being angry at ZOS however this is not one of those times.

All of the content we are going to be getting with the "X-Pack" which is really still Downloadable Content. Is enoth to make me look the other way "this time.

To the future of the last reminding decent MMO on the current market.

SGT_Wolfe101st

I keep seeing these posts and I can't help but think that the defenders are missing the point. I, as an ESO+ subscriber, signed up with the understanding that it would cover all future content. Now the ESO+ advert states all content on the Crown Store. Under the TOS ZOS is entitled to do whatever they want whenever they want without notice, but that doesn't make it right. People that sub are undoubtedly supporting ZOS, in exchange there were perks, craft bag, some crowns, quarterly DLC's. There has not been anything in Q42016 or as of yet Q12017, if this trend continues subscribers will have gone nearly 4 quarters without the promised DLC. On top of that if you take the content that will be Morrowind and break it out, it would have been Q4's, Q1's, and Q2's size and amount.

Warthgar added a zone, a trial, a story, lots of cosmetics, that was included.
TG and DBH added a zone, an arena, cosmetics, etc. Call it what you want but they advertised ESO+ as one thing and now they've moved the goal post and subscribers are just expected to be okay with that?

WOW does it, EQ does it, not the point, they set a precedent and a model, and now they have abandoned that model with no notice and somehow feeling cheated or mislead makes you a snowflake. Subscribers are not expecting something because we feel "entitled", we paid, paid for something. By the time of launch for Marrowind subs will have paid $135 in subscription costs, which netted them, the crafting bag? Crowns that clearly have lost their value (Marrowind not available for purchase with crowns). It's not the cost, its the value placed on certain dollars payed to ZOS vs others.

esotoon

Woeler wrote: »

But mommy told me I can have anything I want in life! I'm special. ZOS give me that content I am entitled to having!

/s

My mummy never told me that. ZOS on the other hand did tell me that as an ESO+ subscriber I would be able to have access to all future DLC. Told me that ESO wouldn't be doing Expansion Packs, with the implication being that this would mean access to all future content whilst subscribed. And told me that I would be getting 4 DLCs a year. Hence the upset.

No one is demanding anything for free. No one is assuming they are entitled to anything, other than that which has been previously stated would be part of our subscription.

The_Protagonist

Paincake wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Some of the Crown Store choices were greed. I don't believe RNG boxes (Crown Crates) have ever been in the benefit of the consumer.

Anyone who chose to purchase said boxes cannot claim they were "greedy" because they willingly engaged in a contract (and I've seen an awful lot of lightning mounts running around). Whether or not something benefits the consumer is a judgement to be made on a per-consumer basis because it's ultimately the consumer that decides, not you or I. Stop acting judgmental and let individuals make their own decisions / judgments.

https://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/psychology-marketers-revealing-principles-human-behavior#sm.0001ja5e2s783cuhqz521r2yxihms

Choice has become more of an illusion nowadays for the chap that is not always on guard.

Foxesz

It should be called greed because all ESO+ subscribers got shafted by this. This is a poor excuse of an expansion and you know it. You need only compare it to other MMOs to know it's lackluster and better serves as part of the DLC plan you get for ESO+ subscribers. That was a good system and forcing people to dish out 40+ euros on top of the 180 euros a year is terrible.

gard

Spectral_Lord wrote: »

What then? False advertisement of a product?

OP is right.

Deceptive might be a better term. The coverup - changing the description of ESO+ - illustrates the point perfectly.
There are other synonyms, but let's try to keep the discussion polite.

SGT_Wolfe101st

Graydon wrote: »

If $40 is unaffordable then it's time to re-evaluate and make some serious life changes.

If the $40 is all about principle, then don't buy the game.

That will demonstrate your displeasure wiih ZOS.

I've never seen such a pile of beggars demanding the fruits and efforts of somebody else's labor for free.

What is the point of forums then, only stop by to catch up on the news? Having a voice and using it can facilitate change and I think if an opinion is strong enough and stated enough gaming companies will change their position. Bungie and Destiny tried to basically charge current owners again for the base game, the forums exploded and Bungie back peddled. But I guess if my POV is not in the majority I should just shut my mouth and deal with it, or be labeled a snowflake, it that how it works?

OrphanHelgen

I bought crown crates. I will buy houses even though I don't care about housing. I will also buy the dlc, yes dlc of Morrowind, not expansion.
But it doesn't change facts.

And the fact is, that some players are only looking for the new trial. And even though they have been eso plus member since beginning, they still need to pay full price to get access to the new trial. People a part of a raiding group. Students maybe who simply cannot afford 40 euros like that. A new trial will be like a base game, not like some additional feature with quests, mounts, costumes or new class.

I think let the trial have free access and the rest can priced as much as they like.

Hand_Bacon

The next time my company turns a profit, I'm going to quit!

That'll show 'em...

driosketch

I'm just going to run through a few points here.

There is a world of difference between a major piece of content and an overpriced mount or motif which nearly as much.

In the debate of DLC vs. Expansion, remember that this isn't just a new zone, it's a zone as large as 2-3 regular PvE zones, features a new class, and a new PvP mode. DLCs are sometimes regarded as content held back to charge for it. In this regard, Imperial City, Thieves' guild and Dark Brotherhood could fit this description. Recreating Morrowind is not even in the same relm as that.

While the need to pay money for the expansion, even for subcriber's may be a jarring change of buiness model, it is not unreasonable.

However, part of the toxicity we see now carries over from recent business practices taken by ZOS in the crown store. While greed requires we know thier intent, we can objectly see ways value for the customer is adjusted to be less favorable. Second crown exclusive motif had almost no mimic stones when the last one had over 50. This past couple months following the second Black Fredas sale has seen a 20% increase in the cost of items over similar items in the past, and the most expensive mount for direct purchase to date. Finally crown crates, which use casino tactics, remove choice from the purchasing customer, and sandles them with items they don't want. Mathematically, you can even pull less value from a crate than the 400 crowns you spend, even though the website claims otherwise.

TL/DR: The pricing for this expansion is reasonable, but past marketing by ZOS has soured players too much to see that.

Turelus

Paincake wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Some of the Crown Store choices were greed. I don't believe RNG boxes (Crown Crates) have ever been in the benefit of the consumer.

Anyone who chose to purchase said boxes cannot claim they were "greedy" because they willingly engaged in a contract (and I've seen an awful lot of lightning mounts running around). Whether or not something benefits the consumer is a judgement to be made on a per-consumer basis because it's ultimately the consumer that decides, not you or I. Stop acting judgmental and let individuals make their own decisions / judgments.

As am I. I will not give any player abuse for partaking in any kind of purchase on the store as I myself will partake in them in future when they offer items of interest to me.
Please go and read any of my posts and you will see that my annoyance is aimed at the business model of ZOS and their willingness to use this business method and not at the players buying them.

The problem comes from what will be the (and already is) the shift of desirable items from a buy what you want to gamble and hope you win system of item release in the Crown Store.
One of them is friendly and lets consumers walk in a choose what they want, the other is making you spent on items you don't want to access the ones you do want.

To use a terrible analogy.

Imagine when wanting to make a purchase for any item you don't need, but would like to own. A statue of Azura.

Now other statues like this have been sold for about £40, so you figure that's its base value here. To buy this statue of Azura you need to play a spinning wheel game though, on that wheel you have six even sized segments which give you a candy bar if you win, the last segment (one quarter of the wheel) is divided into six more segments, one of those is Azura and the others are other Daedric Prince statues.

Each spin of the wheel costs you £5, so now rather than waking into a store, saying "I want that, here's £40" you're going to be gambling on whether the odds will let you get that statue of Azura in 8 spins of the wheel. Also should you win a Prince statue, you're not allowed to trade it in for money or the one you want, and if you win the same one twice they will only give you £10 back instead of its £40 value.

How anyone can believe this is a fair and acceptable business model for the consumers and benefits them in any way shocks me. Yes people have and will partake in it, myself included. The reason for this is we want the items, we like them and desire them. However rather than a friendly approach that lets us say "I want that here is my money" we have to play games of chance and spend more than an items value to get what we want, which only benefits those selling the tickets.

/endrant.

Jim_Pipp

Dear people-who-argue-ZOS-is-a-business.

I'm hearing a lot about how businesses exist to make money... but ZOS is in the business of making one game for people to enjoy, and a quick look at the forums says they are not doing very well at it.

Some people seem very happy but a significant proportion of players are very unhappy. Simply not purchasing "rip-off" items from the crown store won't help the game survive in the long-term (I'll avoid using the word greedy as the OP asked, but I feel like that makes it harder to hear why players are so frustrated).

Personally I don't mind the price of the expansion, but I am horrified that a crown store manor will cost more than all of Morrowind (considering housing is the smaller quarterly update). Recently the Dro'mathra mount was controversial and the same arguments were made. There is an ongoing divide in the community about how ESO is paid for, and it needs to be resolved for the game to have a long and successful run.

[img][/img]via Imgflip Meme Generator

Turelus

The_Protagonist wrote: »

Paincake wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Some of the Crown Store choices were greed. I don't believe RNG boxes (Crown Crates) have ever been in the benefit of the consumer.

Anyone who chose to purchase said boxes cannot claim they were "greedy" because they willingly engaged in a contract (and I've seen an awful lot of lightning mounts running around). Whether or not something benefits the consumer is a judgement to be made on a per-consumer basis because it's ultimately the consumer that decides, not you or I. Stop acting judgmental and let individuals make their own decisions / judgments.

https://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/psychology-marketers-revealing-principles-human-behavior#sm.0001ja5e2s783cuhqz521r2yxihms

Choice has become more of an illusion nowadays for the chap that is not always on guard.

This is an awesome post and I wish more people would see it and realise what a cess pit the gaming industry has become by using such methods.