Tanking Test

Taylor_MB

Very simple question, what's a good way to test if a tank build is ready for vet trials?

Is solo tanking (with 0 assistance from healer and average dps from group so it is a medium length fight) the axes on nAA a good indicator? Or is there no way to test for vet without doing it?

Or is being able to self sustain HP and resources not as important as just mitigating damage and pumping out war horns and relying on shards and heals?

---

I have a Blazing Shield tank that can do vdsa with an average group, solo tank the warrior in nHRC when everyone dies (but die when I try to rez people), the axes in nAA just fine, solo Skoria with no platforms, all while wearing 3 proc sets. So I can throw on Tava's and more traditional tanking sets, but is it worth even attempting or should I just rank up my stam DK?

Oompuh

Sorry to burst your bubble but testing a tank in normal trials won't show much. Most people can bring in 12 dd and do a normal trial.

From personal experience, a blazing shield tank won't hold up in vet trials and definitely not hard mode AA or HRC.

Start with VSO since it's pretty easy and work your way up as normal trials aren't really a good measure on anything honestly. If you can't tank the Manti, it's not gonna get easier

Taylor_MB

No bubble to burst, that's why I'm asking.

So if I can solo tank the Manti I could be able to do everything else with a group?

ryanborror

You might be able to do a lot of content but not too many competitive raid teams use templar tanks. But I would agree with starting with manticora as it hits pretty hard. The other vet trials have some difficulty tank checks in them (vAA- resource managment, vHRC- pure mitigation)

Lukums1

I actually found this not too be too bad.

Go into VHR - Collect all the adds, over the bridge and both sides of the stairs.

Stay alive for 3 minutes. This will show your ability to keep a hold of block and manage resources.

As far as incoming damage, nothing will really prepare you for warrior on vhr... certain degree of skill.

If you can manage cradle of shadows as a tank, you're doing alright.
Veli on cradle hits hard with certain mechanics to watch for so this is a solid test in my opinion (even with heals)

LadyNalcarya

nAA axes dont hit as hard as vet axes... Once I ve met a pug tank that didnt even taunt them, but we still killed the Mage.
Idk about any other tests as well. Survivability is important, yes, but a really good tank also buffs his party, and positioning is also very important.
Blazing shield tank is not efficient in vet trials because all your sets only benefit you, and in any competitive group you would have to wear sets that boost your group (Alkosh etc). Its technically possible to tank trials on a templar, but competitive groups only accept dks because they're better suited for trial tanking. If you have a stam dk, you can just have 2 sets of gear, one for dps and one for tanking and swap to either of these roles. So for easier dungeons and whatnot you can be a 3rd dd and for trials you can be a full tank.

Raghul

https://youtu.be/vvLw2Z-supA

Taylor_MB

@Raghul Isn't kiting... not tanking?

@Lukums1 Best I've been able to survive so far is 2.40 (with 80k dps, haha), and that is mainly dependent on Leeching Plate procs saving me. This tank is really fun to play for literally any other content apart from vet trials it seems. Don't own Hist dlc so can't test in Cradle, nor wear Alkosh like @KoshkaMurka suggested (only have IC and Wrothgar).

I'm really happy with how this performs in all other content, but it does seem I need to finish ranking up my stamDK for vet trials. Thanks for the input all!

Raghul

@Taylor_MB video is speed up, i was holding block all the time and mobs were always hitting me, just walking around to avoid the red what you should do anyways , if you just stand and block there everyone would die

Gaggin

https://youtube.com/watch?v=6kROoi6ybSc&t=1328

This is my build for Templar tamking in vet trials and it is superbly fun to play. As far as actual survivability you're better off than a dk tank, the only downside is chains, but you only need chains for one fight in all of the trials(and the other tank can chain vashai's adds). The thing is, you gotta replace blazing shield with breath of life, the damage in vet trials is such that you might as well not be casting it. Shield damage is unmitigated, it'll be gone as soon as you cast it,and in trials you're not just responsible for your health and resources, you're responsible for the whole group, and BoL will give that group support.

As far as a tank 'test' it is hard to say, most trial tank setups actually don't do as well by themselves as they're dependant on shards, etc. but that is how they're able to wear the support sets like alkosh. A lot of tanks that are new to trials do well up until they get dropped by the Warrior's channeled sweeps and they'e like "uh what happened?" but that's also the case for whomever's healing them so don't be discouraged if that guy curbstomps you at first. All I can say is try my guild above, I've done a lot of tanking on that guy and this is the most optimal way to go as a Templar. Start with the sets I show in there as they're easy to obtain(and you'll need them for certain fights regardless) and replace with the ebon/alkosh as you acquire them just like a dk tank would.

And for god's sake, don't use bloodspawn, it gives about 15 ult/min which over a ten minute fight gives you 6 extra seconds of major force, go with warden or engine guardian.

o0Velius

Raghul wrote: »

@Taylor_MB video is speed up, i was holding block all the time and mobs were always hitting me, just walking around to avoid the red what you should do anyways , if you just stand and block there everyone would die

@Raghul Youre video is okay, but its best to agro everything and hold it still, the dps cannot aoe everything down while you are kiting them around like you where.. makes the dps output a lot lower than it needs to be..

@Taylor_MB Tanking end game on other classes other than a Dk is a lot harder on the team and player. and as most have said 90% of the end game guilds wont take anything but a DK because of the support that they give. being able to run sets like Alkosh, is why Dks are the top choice for tanks, other tanks require sets to help them not the group and without the group sets and support that a tank is suppose to give it makes it really hard on the healers and dps. dps output wont be as high, and healers will have to work twice as hard to keep you alive because you have no buffs that can give you stam back expect repentance and during a long boss fight there wont be any adds to do that on.. The issue, with Vet raids vs. normal is that in normal you can drop block for a few seconds to heavy attack or even to swap bars at the wrong moment wont kill you, in vet mode if block is dropped at all, you die from a one shot, or a wrong bar swap at the wrong time its an insta death.

Yes you can tank these with any class, I have done it; But in the end a DK will be better for end game play.. and you will get more people wanting to play with you, some people see a Temp tank or a Sorc tank and their instant reaction is "yuck." kick and replace with a DK. this is of course running with pugs. now if you have 11 friends to run raids with or a guild then they may not kick you for being something other then a DK, but they may have you OFF tank instead.

Raghul

@MrsVelius did you notice there was no dps or healer there just me solo in vet hrc testing my survival? Ofcourse i would hold them together when in a group with a healer on me and dps to nuke them down xD

Gaggin

MrsVelius wrote: »

Raghul wrote: »

@Taylor_MB video is speed up, i was holding block all the time and mobs were always hitting me, just walking around to avoid the red what you should do anyways , if you just stand and block there everyone would die

@Raghul Youre video is okay, but its best to agro everything and hold it still, the dps cannot aoe everything down while you are kiting them around like you where.. makes the dps output a lot lower than it needs to be..

@Taylor_MB Tanking end game on other classes other than a Dk is a lot harder on the team and player. and as most have said 90% of the end game guilds wont take anything but a DK because of the support that they give. being able to run sets like Alkosh, is why Dks are the top choice for tanks, other tanks require sets to help them not the group and without the group sets and support that a tank is suppose to give it makes it really hard on the healers and dps. dps output wont be as high, and healers will have to work twice as hard to keep you alive because you have no buffs that can give you stam back expect repentance and during a long boss fight there wont be any adds to do that on.. The issue, with Vet raids vs. normal is that in normal you can drop block for a few seconds to heavy attack or even to swap bars at the wrong moment wont kill you, in vet mode if block is dropped at all, you die from a one shot, or a wrong bar swap at the wrong time its an insta death.

Yes you can tank these with any class, I have done it; But in the end a DK will be better for end game play.. and you will get more people wanting to play with you, some people see a Temp tank or a Sorc tank and their instant reaction is "yuck." kick and replace with a DK. this is of course running with pugs. now if you have 11 friends to run raids with or a guild then they may not kick you for being something other then a DK, but they may have you OFF tank instead.

The Templar tank is quite overlooked, and people just don't bother to with the L2P aspect. Templars have just as good resource managed as dks because they regen magicka faster and have a superior self-heal that uses magicka, not stamina, making the healers work LESS hard than with a DK. I've seen it a thousand times, people see @Woeler vids and march in a trial like they have the same healers and support and experience that he has and get wrecked as soon as heals are diverted or they make a mistake on the boss. You wear pretty much the exact same sets as dks, and the only thing u don't have is chains which is only need for one fight that requires 2 tanks anyway.

Asardes

A blazing shield tank is not optimal for PvE as it brings little group utility, the shield overflow damage is negligible, amounting to 3-5K DPS in trash packs, and much less than that on bosses, and the 50K+ health is overkill even for veteran trials - 26-30K health suffices even for hard modes of those trials and one shots will be one shots regardless of health or shields if you don't play the mechanics properly (ex. drop block when Ra-Kotu does the sword sweep). In trials you always bring DK tank. Other classes can off-tank, but a blazing shield tank is even less adequate for that role, because of the low resource pools and lack of DPS as a result.

Gaggin

OH, I would never reccoment blazing shield at all, BoL all the way.See my earlier post.

Woeler

Gaggin wrote: »

MrsVelius wrote: »

Raghul wrote: »

@Taylor_MB video is speed up, i was holding block all the time and mobs were always hitting me, just walking around to avoid the red what you should do anyways , if you just stand and block there everyone would die

@Raghul Youre video is okay, but its best to agro everything and hold it still, the dps cannot aoe everything down while you are kiting them around like you where.. makes the dps output a lot lower than it needs to be..

@Taylor_MB Tanking end game on other classes other than a Dk is a lot harder on the team and player. and as most have said 90% of the end game guilds wont take anything but a DK because of the support that they give. being able to run sets like Alkosh, is why Dks are the top choice for tanks, other tanks require sets to help them not the group and without the group sets and support that a tank is suppose to give it makes it really hard on the healers and dps. dps output wont be as high, and healers will have to work twice as hard to keep you alive because you have no buffs that can give you stam back expect repentance and during a long boss fight there wont be any adds to do that on.. The issue, with Vet raids vs. normal is that in normal you can drop block for a few seconds to heavy attack or even to swap bars at the wrong moment wont kill you, in vet mode if block is dropped at all, you die from a one shot, or a wrong bar swap at the wrong time its an insta death.

Yes you can tank these with any class, I have done it; But in the end a DK will be better for end game play.. and you will get more people wanting to play with you, some people see a Temp tank or a Sorc tank and their instant reaction is "yuck." kick and replace with a DK. this is of course running with pugs. now if you have 11 friends to run raids with or a guild then they may not kick you for being something other then a DK, but they may have you OFF tank instead.

The Templar tank is quite overlooked, and people just don't bother to with the L2P aspect. Templars have just as good resource managed as dks because they regen magicka faster and have a superior self-heal that uses magicka, not stamina, making the healers work LESS hard than with a DK. I've seen it a thousand times, people see @Woeler vids and march in a trial like they have the same healers and support and experience that he has and get wrecked as soon as heals are diverted or they make a mistake on the boss. You wear pretty much the exact same sets as dks, and the only thing u don't have is chains which is only need for one fight that requires 2 tanks anyway.

And no reasonable aoe root, and they have worse resource management, plus with the coagulating blood change a DK basically has his own breath of life. My opinion is that you still should not need that much self heal and vigor should suffice. Your healers are working anyway. It's not like healers stop healing or heal less when they have a templar tank. Springs and ritual are down, always. They will be doing the same thing as with any other tank. If you drop low, the reflex of your healer should be to heal you, and not wait for you to heal yourself. And if you don't get a heal you can always simply dodge.

Self sustained health in heavy fights isn't a thing. There is always aoe heals down, and if you want it or not, you're standing in them.

Gaggin

Woeler wrote: »

Gaggin wrote: »

MrsVelius wrote: »

Raghul wrote: »

@Taylor_MB video is speed up, i was holding block all the time and mobs were always hitting me, just walking around to avoid the red what you should do anyways , if you just stand and block there everyone would die

@Raghul Youre video is okay, but its best to agro everything and hold it still, the dps cannot aoe everything down while you are kiting them around like you where.. makes the dps output a lot lower than it needs to be..

@Taylor_MB Tanking end game on other classes other than a Dk is a lot harder on the team and player. and as most have said 90% of the end game guilds wont take anything but a DK because of the support that they give. being able to run sets like Alkosh, is why Dks are the top choice for tanks, other tanks require sets to help them not the group and without the group sets and support that a tank is suppose to give it makes it really hard on the healers and dps. dps output wont be as high, and healers will have to work twice as hard to keep you alive because you have no buffs that can give you stam back expect repentance and during a long boss fight there wont be any adds to do that on.. The issue, with Vet raids vs. normal is that in normal you can drop block for a few seconds to heavy attack or even to swap bars at the wrong moment wont kill you, in vet mode if block is dropped at all, you die from a one shot, or a wrong bar swap at the wrong time its an insta death.

Yes you can tank these with any class, I have done it; But in the end a DK will be better for end game play.. and you will get more people wanting to play with you, some people see a Temp tank or a Sorc tank and their instant reaction is "yuck." kick and replace with a DK. this is of course running with pugs. now if you have 11 friends to run raids with or a guild then they may not kick you for being something other then a DK, but they may have you OFF tank instead.

The Templar tank is quite overlooked, and people just don't bother to with the L2P aspect. Templars have just as good resource managed as dks because they regen magicka faster and have a superior self-heal that uses magicka, not stamina, making the healers work LESS hard than with a DK. I've seen it a thousand times, people see @Woeler vids and march in a trial like they have the same healers and support and experience that he has and get wrecked as soon as heals are diverted or they make a mistake on the boss. You wear pretty much the exact same sets as dks, and the only thing u don't have is chains which is only need for one fight that requires 2 tanks anyway.

And no reasonable aoe root, and they have worse resource management, plus with the coagulating blood change a DK basically has his own breath of life. My opinion is that you still should not need that much self heal and vigor should suffice. Your healers are working anyway. It's not like healers stop healing or heal less when they have a templar tank. Springs and ritual are down, always. They will be doing the same thing as with any other tank. If you drop low, the reflex of your healer should be to heal you, and not wait for you to heal yourself. And if you don't get a heal you can always simply dodge.

Self sustained health in heavy fights isn't a thing. There is always aoe heals down, and if you want it or not, you're standing in them.

The only time I ever see any tank root in trials is for cast in maw, where u should have at least 1 dk tank anyway for twins. As a magdk dps I find myself snaring cats more with my eruption than anything, as they tend to run to our sorcs away from the tank. Templar tanks do NOT have worse resource management, they have different resource management. With channeled focus we regen magicka very quickly and don't have to spend stam to heal ourself or the party. I know you run with a super elite optimized group, so I can see how you wouldn't need much self-heals and therefore wouldn't find a Templar that appealing, but most tanks don't have that kind of healer support, with dps not dying to stupid ***. Yes majority of fights you are in the springs clumped up together, but lets be honest those fights could by tanked by any class. You don't suggest DKs over sorcs and NBs for stack n burn bosses, you suggests DKs cus of the axes, the warrior's channeled sweeps, fights where your groups need those igneous shields and a degree of self-sufficiency. I don't know how good the change to coagulating blood is going to be, but since it doesn't heal anyone else I'd imagine dk tanks will stick with vigor. I just did a particulary hectic aa HM(where i'm not standing in springs) where I healed myself over 50percent of the time. I can tank up to 4 axes with no heals or shard. I can heal myself through the warrior's channeled sweeps(ever have both healers get stoned/killed?). It's not to say you should favor Templar tanks if that's not what you want to do, but if you think dks are the only option or even the best option all the time you're wrong.
Also Templar tanks can debuff the boss with Power of the Light(don't tell me you have stamplar running it, 99.99% of groups don't have stamplars).

Mr_Apollo

Gaggin wrote: »

MrsVelius wrote: »

Raghul wrote: »

@Taylor_MB video is speed up, i was holding block all the time and mobs were always hitting me, just walking around to avoid the red what you should do anyways , if you just stand and block there everyone would die

@Raghul Youre video is okay, but its best to agro everything and hold it still, the dps cannot aoe everything down while you are kiting them around like you where.. makes the dps output a lot lower than it needs to be..

@Taylor_MB Tanking end game on other classes other than a Dk is a lot harder on the team and player. and as most have said 90% of the end game guilds wont take anything but a DK because of the support that they give. being able to run sets like Alkosh, is why Dks are the top choice for tanks, other tanks require sets to help them not the group and without the group sets and support that a tank is suppose to give it makes it really hard on the healers and dps. dps output wont be as high, and healers will have to work twice as hard to keep you alive because you have no buffs that can give you stam back expect repentance and during a long boss fight there wont be any adds to do that on.. The issue, with Vet raids vs. normal is that in normal you can drop block for a few seconds to heavy attack or even to swap bars at the wrong moment wont kill you, in vet mode if block is dropped at all, you die from a one shot, or a wrong bar swap at the wrong time its an insta death.

Yes you can tank these with any class, I have done it; But in the end a DK will be better for end game play.. and you will get more people wanting to play with you, some people see a Temp tank or a Sorc tank and their instant reaction is "yuck." kick and replace with a DK. this is of course running with pugs. now if you have 11 friends to run raids with or a guild then they may not kick you for being something other then a DK, but they may have you OFF tank instead.

The Templar tank is quite overlooked, and people just don't bother to with the L2P aspect. Templars have just as good resource managed as dks because they regen magicka faster and have a superior self-heal that uses magicka, not stamina, making the healers work LESS hard than with a DK. I've seen it a thousand times, people see @Woeler vids and march in a trial like they have the same healers and support and experience that he has and get wrecked as soon as heals are diverted or they make a mistake on the boss. You wear pretty much the exact same sets as dks, and the only thing u don't have is chains which is only need for one fight that requires 2 tanks anyway.

Heals? Perhaps. support? Hell no. Yes you can drop some healing auras to support your healers and damage output, but unlike a dk, you don't have Igneous shield for example which regains you stamina, gives a shield to everyone AND adds Major Mending. You also don't have Molten Armaments which add Spell damage and Weapon damage to everyone in your party. You don't have Chocking talons which will stuck enemies and also give them minor maim which will reduce their damage. At the end of the day, in a boss fight without a healer constantly giving you shards, youre screwed if your stamina goes down, a dk doesn't have that problem.

PS: Not to mention that everytime you pop an ultimate with a DK itll give you tons of resources back

akl77

Any Dk tank can beat a Templar tank any day

Gaggin

Mr_Apollo wrote: »

Heals? Perhaps. support? Hell no. Yes you can drop some healing auras to support your healers and damage output, but unlike a dk, you don't have Igneous shield for example which regains you stamina, gives a shield to everyone AND adds Major Mending. You also don't have Molten Armaments which add Spell damage and Weapon damage to everyone in your party. You don't have Chocking talons which will stuck enemies and also give them minor maim which will reduce their damage. At the end of the day, in a boss fight without a healer constantly giving you shards, youre screwed if your stamina goes down, a dk doesn't have that problem.

PS: Not to mention that everytime you pop an ultimate with a DK itll give you tons of resources back

We're talking trials here. Most mobs can't be rooted and even if they could you wouldn't want as it's better in most pulls to taunt everyone to you to cluster them up. Tanks should have minor main from heroic slash anyway, so that's redundant. In vet trials dps should be running the expensive pots, so that makes igneous weapons useless, and while the stam return on shileds is a better than nothing it's certainly not a game-breaker and doesn't make up for the fact that you have to use vigor to heal. The shields themselves really help when well-placed, but a 4k shield in trials isn't nearly as helpful as being healed to full-health on heavy damage phases like block n spreads, etc. If dks didn't have stamina problems, I'd never hear one ask for shards in raids but yet I do. The battle roar passive is the only edge dks have on resource management, but then Templars have channeled focus. As long you're competent and manage your resources correctly, you use a dk or a Templar with no issues. I can't even remember the last time I ran out of stam on a boss, there's too many synergies from dps to not have stamina.

Woeler

Gaggin wrote: »

Mr_Apollo wrote: »

Heals? Perhaps. support? Hell no. Yes you can drop some healing auras to support your healers and damage output, but unlike a dk, you don't have Igneous shield for example which regains you stamina, gives a shield to everyone AND adds Major Mending. You also don't have Molten Armaments which add Spell damage and Weapon damage to everyone in your party. You don't have Chocking talons which will stuck enemies and also give them minor maim which will reduce their damage. At the end of the day, in a boss fight without a healer constantly giving you shards, youre screwed if your stamina goes down, a dk doesn't have that problem.

PS: Not to mention that everytime you pop an ultimate with a DK itll give you tons of resources back

We're talking trials here. Most mobs can't be rooted and even if they could you wouldn't want as it's better in most pulls to taunt everyone to you to cluster them up. Tanks should have minor main from heroic slash anyway, so that's redundant. In vet trials dps should be running the expensive pots, so that makes igneous weapons useless, and while the stam return on shileds is a better than nothing it's certainly not a game-breaker and doesn't make up for the fact that you have to use vigor to heal. The shields themselves really help when well-placed, but a 4k shield in trials isn't nearly as helpful as being healed to full-health on heavy damage phases like block n spreads, etc. If dks didn't have stamina problems, I'd never hear one ask for shards in raids but yet I do. The battle roar passive is the only edge dks have on resource management, but then Templars have channeled focus. As long you're competent and manage your resources correctly, you use a dk or a Templar with no issues. I can't even remember the last time I ran out of stam on a boss, there's too many synergies from dps to not have stamina.

Then you run with the wrong DK's. I can even tank AA hardmode fine without any shards or stamina support besides a pot and my passives. Not sure about a templar.

Asardes

Buffs, debuffs and utility provided by DK tank for group are far better than those provided by a Templar tank.
DK can provide: Major Sorcery, Major Brutality, Minor Brutality, Major Fracture (AoE), Minor Maim, group shield, hard root, strong slow, chains - yes, even in trials there are mobs that can be chained and chains also work as a short duration taunt, and they are free if the mob can't be moved.
Templar can provide: Minor Sorcery, Minor Fracture (single target), Major Maim (only from ultimate). It can also provide stamina regeneration from repentance, but that doesn't benefit the group as much on a tank because the amount of stamina restored scales on the maximum stat, either magicka or stamina, and tank has less than healer or DD. Also you can only restore your own stamina if there's something to repent. For example in AA the adds may not die at the right time, or are too far away to repent when running out of stamina with axes aggroed. By comparison a DK tank using ingenous shield restores a bit of stamina and a bit of ultimate that contributes to the next warhorn. That in turn restores more resources. And that's totally independent on mobs. So you can sustain just fine even without shards, provided your magicka and ultimate regeneration is high enough.

Gaggin

Asardes wrote: »

Buffs, debuffs and utility provided by DK tank for group are far better than those provided by a Templar tank.
DK can provide: Major Sorcery, Major Brutality, Minor Brutality, Major Fracture (AoE), Minor Maim, group shield, hard root, strong slow, chains - yes, even in trials there are mobs that can be chained and chains also work as a short duration taunt, and they are free if the mob can't be moved.
Templar can provide: Minor Sorcery, Minor Fracture (single target), Major Maim (only from ultimate). It can also provide stamina regeneration from repentance, but that doesn't benefit the group as much on a tank because the amount of stamina restored scales on the maximum stat, either magicka or stamina, and tank has less than healer or DD. Also you can only restore your own stamina if there's something to repent. For example in AA the adds may not die at the right time, or are too far away to repent when running out of stamina with axes aggroed. By comparison a DK tank using ingenous shield restores a bit of stamina and a bit of ultimate that contributes to the next warhorn. That in turn restores more resources. And that's totally independent on mobs. So you can sustain just fine even without shards, provided your magicka and ultimate regeneration is high enough.

I'm glad you're able to list every buff/debuff in a dk's tooltip, but as I pointed out above, most of those don't help in trials because they're already redundant. DPS already provide the major and minor sorcerys/brutalities, all classes have access to minor maim, root and chains are almost never used except in vmol(and tank NEVER use eruption or venomous breath). You also forgot the minor fracture/breach that only Templar tanks have access to, equivalent to roughly half an alkosh debuff(and it generates ulti). The fact that you're listing things that DK tanks never use in trials tells me you don't quite know what you're talking about here.

Ya some DKs I have run with have been wet behind the ears to be sure, however the tank in my core is a super solid dk and he manages to survive where most tanks fail. This game does require skill after all. I just think people rely way too much on their healers. If I have to ask for a shard or am in need of a heal, I feel kinda embarrassed about it. People rely way too much on their healers sometimes.

Asardes

Well, to be honest, my tankiest char is by far my magicka sorcerer. He has just 13.5K stamina but he doesn't need more if he just times block right. Maybe I'll try tanking VAA or VSO with him one day.