Let's Hypothesize the Reality Behind Nirn and the Mundus

ArchMikem

I'm gonna go out on a limb now, a brittle, precarious limb, and try and start a discussion, (which I kinda already did once already which ended poorly..) about the Realities behind Nirn, the Mundus, Oblivion, Aetherius, and the greater cosmos this Universe inhabits. Let me put my tinfoil hat on.

The Basics of what we know. Nirn is a life sustaining world, similar to a planet. It's nearly identical to our Earth, land, oceans, a sky, breathable air, weather, climates etc. Nirn (perceived from the Mortal eyes on the ground) has two moons that appear to orbit Nirn, Masser and Secunda. A Planet with Moons, okay. The night sky has stars in all directions, and the day sky has the sun, Magnus, which Nirn appears to be orbiting. So, to recap, and to describe it in our real world terms, Nirn is a habitable planet with two moons orbiting it's parent star Magnus. Now onto the more fantastical parts.

The realms of Oblivion are separate from the Mundus, you can't get to one by conventional means, ie. you can't just walk there. You can however get there by means of Portal and other forms of "Rifts". What the Canon explains is these realms are planes of existence, both there yet not there, all forms of fancy mind boggling stuff. But, my personal theory regarding the Realms of Oblivion. They're not planes separate from Nirn, but they ARE, Nirn. The Realms of Oblivion are Dimensions, different versions of Nirn itself. Inter-Dimensional travel is a common SciFi trope, but it's still the least bit plausible to explain, say, why there are intelligent humanoid creatures (The Dremora, Xivkyn, Xivilai, Dark Seducers, Golden Saints). These are the Races that inhabit the other "Nirns" instead of the Races we know of.

And then there's the Divines. The Aedra, the Daedra. We've been told of this "Cosmic Game" that's being played, this grand scheme between the Princes and that Nirn is firmly within the cross-hairs. What these Princes, the Divines, were just creatures from other Dimensions that literally were just playing a game with us? One giant charade. I want to quote something from Men in Black. "A person is smart, people are dumb, panicky, dangerous Animals.". The Mortals of Nirn are a Medieval people who's greatest common technological achievement are the levers that open doors somewhere in a Dwemer Ruin. We know that Science is a prevalent force in the Universe, and any kind of Science is considered Magic by people that don't fully understand it. What if these Daedra are using a Science that the Mortals of Nirn just can't even hope to comprehend, so it's written off as more Magic? I'm not trying to write of Magic as a whole however, there can definitely be forces of Nature that isn't available in our real world. Even we have discovered Humanity isn't making full use of our minds, and the Human Brain is the most complex, sophisticated computer in nature. The kind of power that could be unlocked could range from Telepathic, Telekinetic, or in Tamriel's case, Magical?

Time to rest from my Tinfoil hat now, I know there's more I think about but I'm crap at writing out well thought opinions, it's why I never got straight A's in English. :P I guess I secretly hope that behind all the Lore we know of Tamriel is in reality much more easy to understand, but then again I'm not the game's writers, Nirn is most likely actually just one big magical place full of magical things and angry magical people from other magical planes that defy every law of physics imaginable, that is what Fantasy is supposed to be about right? Perhaps someone from ZOS should come in here and tell me I'm wrong already. lol

Dantonian_Rarstiana

Its all made up to suit the narrative of the story they want to tell.
It can all be changed at any time to suit a new story.

Pinja

Those answers exist if that's what your asking...

AhPook_Is_Here

Those bit-angels tho rasterizing on a 3d pin.

Ffastyl

The Dwemer had a bit of a better understanding on this:

The planes of reality are, in an extent, planets, existing in a void that is likely Oblivion. Others have depicted this same cosmological map in more modern and comprehensible ways:


As depicted, enveloping the entire known universe is Aetherius. There is more documented lore on the origins of Masser, Secunda, Magnus and the stars, however. Masser and Secunda are attendant gods to Nirn, but Nirn being mortal so are Masser and Secunda. It is believed the two died a long time ago, but since no one has written about visiting or communing with either attendant, it is difficult to conclusively prove either way. The stars and Magnus are holes in the "sphere" surrounding the known universe, leaking light and magicka from Aetherius. The sun, Magnus, is not actually Magnus, but rather the hole he tore in the "sphere" when he left this universe.

If there were no sun or stars, magic would not exist on Nirn. How magicka is manipulated is still unexplored, but since it all originates from Aetherius we can assume many things within Mundus would not exist. Mortal life could possibly be one of them, considering souls seek Aetherius and are therefore implied to be magicka based entities.

susmitds

In other news, Nirn itself is a plane of Oblivion, it's Lorkhan's plane.

ArchMikem

Ffastyl wrote: »

The Dwemer had a bit of a better understanding on this:

The planes of reality are, in an extent, planets, existing in a void that is likely Oblivion.

The Dwemer were perhaps the only people to have the deepest understanding of the world around them, and yet their entire people vanished from Nirn in what's depicted as seemingly overnight with no rhyme or reason. I don't like going full blown conspiracy theory, but perhaps the Divines believed the Dwemer knew too much? Or was it just something that took place at the Battle of Red Mountain that caused the Dwemer to disappear.

If there were no sun or stars, magic would not exist on Nirn. How magicka is manipulated is still unexplored, but since it all originates from Aetherius we can assume many things within Mundus would not exist. Mortal life could possibly be one of them, considering souls seek Aetherius and are therefore implied to be magicka based entities.

Not only just Magic, but life as we know it wouldn't exist without the hole to Aetherius. Since the hole acts as a Sun, it provides light and heat to Nirn, without it there could be no Mortal life to speak of. But then that would mean life had to be created after Magnus made the tear, which would then lead to the question, how do Mortals know the sun is a hole into Aetherius made by Magnus, if it happened before the existence of the first Mortals? If it's just a tale made up by Mortals to explain the Sun, then how could it be truth? Did the Divines tell them?

Ffastyl

Are you familiar with the Heart of Lorkhan? Lorkhan is the god that convinced eight other Et'Ada (original spirits or "gods") to use a considerable amount of their power to create the mortal plane, Mundus. With it, mortals were also created. However, due to the massive amount of magicka radiated by the gods, Mundus was in a constant state of flux, life mutating from one form to the next on a minute by minute basis. This is why Magnus and all known gods left Mundus: they were disgusted. Once the gods left, the magicka concentration reduced and life stabilized. It was either the Aldmer (predecessors to all elves) or Earth Bones that survived this period and passed down this story.

As for Lorkhan? Various religions give various reasons and methods but the result is unanimous: Lorkhan was killed. The Dwemer supposedly found Lorkhan's heart and began building a machine around it. Again, no one actually knows why it happened, but when the Dwemer finally (supposedly) activated that machine, the entire race vanished. The machine itself is also gone, along with the heart of Lorkhan. Whether the machine was actually finished and activated, we can never know. Nor can we know what has happened to the Dwemer; some think they ascended to godhood, others that the gods smited them.

ArchMikem

@Ffastyl I'm loving your posts.

I'd consider the Dwemer trying to harness, manipulate, and or bastardize the Heart of Lorkhan a probable piece of evidence to back the theory that their disappearance was the will of the Gods. Perhaps they thought of the machine as too gross of a trespass?

Ffastyl

Again, we do not know why, simply that they did.

A probable answer came to me when I recalled CHIM...
So, the lore gets really convoluted and thoroughly existential as you attempt to understand the nature of the universe... that understanding is called CHIM. I have a partial grasp of it, having not read all relevant texts, but, all of existence is a dream inside of the godhead. Who or what is dreaming we do not know (hence "godhead") but we do fear when it wakes -- for that is when our existence will end. Understanding, fully, that reality is a dream has one of three results: the person realizes the dream they are in and becomes capable of controlling it, not unlike a livid dream (this is how mortals become gods, like the Tribunal of Morrowind); more commonly, when one realizes they are in a dream, they wake up -- or cease to exist because they have left the dream, or the person leaves this dream and begins their own, becoming a new godhead.

Given the Dwemer were tampering with Lorkhan's heart, they may have achieved CHIM but failed to remain in the dream. How they disappeared en mass is still debatable. I vaguely recall a text or testimony that stated the machine was intended to unify the Dwemer, in mind and spirit, therefore the race would have become one and achieved CHIM as one. Otherwise, the Dwemer had a very extensive and efficient communication network. A third hypothesis is that those of the Dwemer that did achieve divinity willed the race out of the dream.

Patouf

So interesting i follow you guys in this discussion.

ThePonzzz

So a lot of ideals for TES can mirror real life. The only difference is, we ARE casting magic(ka) and we ARE going into another plane of Oblivion, where in real life history/religion speaks about it, but there is no proof of the actual occurrences.

I think it's safe to say everything you experience in TES universe is actually happening, so there aren't fables surrounding the facts or some big science behind it. There are likely more things at play than anyone knows.

If you enjoy this stuff, you can give these channels a watch. I'll paste the playlists.

ArchMikem

Ffastyl wrote: »

A probable answer came to me when I recalled CHIM...
So, the lore gets really convoluted and thoroughly existential as you attempt to understand the nature of the universe... that understanding is called CHIM. I have a partial grasp of it, having not read all relevant texts, but, all of existence is a dream inside of the godhead. Who or what is dreaming we do not know (hence "godhead") but we do fear when it wakes -- for that is when our existence will end.

Existential indeed. Someone else mentioned that to me once before, that the entire reality of Nirn was nothing more than a mere figment of a greater being. Immediately makes you start thinking if any of it has value anymore.

the person realizes the dream they are in and becomes capable of controlling it, not unlike a livid dream (this is how mortals become gods, like the Tribunal of Morrowind)

If so then wouldn't the Tribunal try, or have tried to explain their revelation? Why would they choose to play an act to the people? And also if this were the case, didn't I read somewhere that the Tribunal have to make regular journeys to the Red Mountain in order to maintain their power? I read that sometime in the future after the events of ESO something stops them from making their journey there, their Godlike power wanes because of it which leads to their downfall in Morrowind.

...I keep coming back to Red Mountain. That place is like a focal point in the Lore. Really hope a lot is revealed about it when Vvardenfell comes out.

Ffastyl

Vivec's 36 sermons

Being told you are in a dream is different from realizing the same truth. As for the Tribunal's declining power...

Mankar Camoran wrote:

The Tower touches all the mantles of Heaven, brother-noviates, and by its apex one can be as he will. More: be as he was and yet changed for all else on that path for those that walk after. This is the third key of Nu-mantia and the secret of how mortals become makers, and makers back to mortals. The Bones of the Wheel need their flesh, and that is mankind's heirloom.

Rereading some texts on Red Mountain and the Tribunal, there is a rather significant reason it all comes back to Red Mountain: the Heart of Lorkhan is currently sealed there. The Tribunal pilgrimage there yearly to renew their divine powers by siphoned them from the heart. Dagoth Ur is also sealed on the Red Mountain and in a few centuries he will break free and bring the Tribunal into a more apparent and definitive decline. Dagoth Ur siphoned the heart's power briefly before the Tribunal, but was defeated. When he reincarnates, the Tribunal will be unable to restore their divine powers and wane as Dagoth Ur, with sole access to the Heart of Lorkhan, waxes.

SlinkySlack

Whaaaat!! I didn't know all this. I must say that I always viewed oblivion as another dimension. I just kill the bad guys, demora as Molag Bal calls them. Then there's the celestials of Craglorn I kill in group. Maybe I must start reading all those lore books I just pick and exit so fast that it didn't really displayed.

Faulgor

Ffastyl wrote: »

the person realizes the dream they are in and becomes capable of controlling it, not unlike a livid dream (this is how mortals become gods, like the Tribunal of Morrowind)

The Tribunal are considered living Gods because of the power they draw from the heart of Lorkhan. Of the three, only Vivec supposedly achieved to realize the dream, aka CHIM. The only other individual in Tamriel's history who might have done it, as far as I know, was Talos - and even then, that was probably not how he achieved his divinity.
So, CHIM is a very unusual way of apotheosis, if you could even call something like that usual. If someone's really interested in this matter, they should look up the Six Walking Ways.

Also, as far as depictions of the Aurbis go, this one is pretty dope:

Waffennacht

I've been lookin at it like tiers: first you have the one force (was this Anu?) And in order for something to exist beyond just a simple state of "I think therefore I am" this force created another force.

Now you have more than one thing, these things interact (like chemicals)

This interaction creates a third force

These three forces create 12 worlds, these worlds along with one of the forces are destroyed.

One force forms a singular world, after both of the orginal forces are destroyed but each leaves a being behind. Sithis and Akatosh.

Sithis and Akatosh are the Gods, the Spirits (or underlings) are from this singular world (created from the 12)

Within THIS world a Strong Spirit convinces other Spirits to create YET ANOTHER world, this eventually becomes Nirn, some spirits escape Nirn (mundus etc) and stay under Sithis yet above Nirn.

Those weak spirits stuck on the mortal world are the play things of everything above them.

They were "tricked"by Lork they become everything on Nirn

Unknown by most Lork did this so these spirits could become as Strong as Akatosh or Sithis through a self reflection process of realizing how fake this Nirn world is, that psjic process, by climbing a Tower (capital T, these are mandatory for the nirn existence- surprised no one has gone on a Tower rampage to end existence...)

The Dwemer more than likely (like a few before them)Tried to circumvent the psjic process by using science and the Heart of Lork.

Unfortunately the Psjic thingy requires a very trained mind (much like the scrolls) and if you think you're just a part of the dream (dreams of spirits) you get Zero Summed (cease to exist even as a spirit)

They prob got Zero Summed

Waffennacht

Also remember the Soul Cairn etc... more "planes" can be created. Especially with the use of Soul Gems.

Oblivion is not a "void" but also a place with a surface and rocks and things, it being depicted as "space" is really wrong.