PTS Feedback Thread for Dragonknight Balance Improvements

Carbonised

Anhedonie wrote: »

You guys TOTALLY SUCK at complaining.
It took sorcs only a couple of days to revert nerf to curse. You've been whining about dragon blood for almost two years and devs fixed it just now and it took them several attempts. And there are a lot of issues left that are plagueing DKs like sustain problems and others. And not to mention that DK feedback has the biggest amount of pages of said feedback.
AND I MEAN IT CAN'T POSSIBLY BE THAT DEVELOPERS AREN'T LISTENING. IT'S JUST YOU SUCK AT COMPLAINING GUYS!

I have an idea: a DK strike. The only, only thing we as DKs are called for is the tank role for vet trials and a few vet dungeons.

My brothers and sisters in flame, I suggest a DK strike after next update. Let us refuse to tank for them any more, let us refuse to chain in adds for vMoL and AoE interrupt for vMoL and vet trials. Let us stop pumping out warhorns on our ultigen tanks. Let them have their damn sorcs and templars tank for once, and maybe after enough time has passed, they will give us our necessary buffs and Inferno AoE and we will come back and tank their PvE content and chain in adds.

Until then - Dragonknights, on strike!

#NoMoreTanksForFiror
#ChainInYourOwnAddsWrobel
#LambertLacksIgneous
#WheelerWhereAreYourWarhorns

ZoM_Head

Anhedonie wrote: »

You guys TOTALLY SUCK at complaining.
It took sorcs only a couple of days to revert nerf to curse. You've been whining about dragon blood for almost two years and devs fixed it just now and it took them several attempts. And there are a lot of issues left that are plagueing DKs like sustain problems and others. And not to mention that DK feedback has the biggest amount of pages of said feedback.
AND I MEAN IT CAN'T POSSIBLY BE THAT DEVELOPERS AREN'T LISTENING. IT'S JUST YOU SUCK AT COMPLAINING GUYS!

The devs are indeed listening but they are not executing or implementing.

Took them 1.5 years to fix a heal, that alone says a lot.

Valencer

Neighbor wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

With all this discussion about Stam DK, I would like to point out that they are okay in PvP and will be after the patch too. They are getting hit hard but in the end they will still be in a much better place Mag DK's in open world.

The problem is that they only are okay at PvP. By far my biggest gripe with the entire DK class is the lack of excelling at any one role.

Mag DK's in PvE = Average
Mag DK's in PvP = Terrible
Stam DK's in PvE = Not Magika
Stam DK's in PvP = Average

Let's compare that to Sorcs:

Mag Sorcs in PvE = God-Tier
Mag Sorcs in PvP = Really good
Stam Sorcs in PvE = Best Stam setup
Stam Sorcs in PvP = God-Tier

See the problem here? Can we just be good at one thing, please?

You've put it in a very simplistic way, but yes.

Stamina DKs (and magicka DKs) are pretty useless in actual Cyrodiil PvP. They dont have an use in PvP raids, and in small scale youll just be ignored while your friends get overwhelmed because you dont have the burst needed to actually be dangerous.

DKs are good at being tanky in a meta where everyone is tanky by just wearing heavy armour. Useless.

Rikumaru

Valencer wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

With all this discussion about Stam DK, I would like to point out that they are okay in PvP and will be after the patch too. They are getting hit hard but in the end they will still be in a much better place Mag DK's in open world.

The problem is that they only are okay at PvP. By far my biggest gripe with the entire DK class is the lack of excelling at any one role.

Mag DK's in PvE = Average
Mag DK's in PvP = Terrible
Stam DK's in PvE = Not Magika
Stam DK's in PvP = Average

Let's compare that to Sorcs:

Mag Sorcs in PvE = God-Tier
Mag Sorcs in PvP = Really good
Stam Sorcs in PvE = Best Stam setup
Stam Sorcs in PvP = God-Tier

See the problem here? Can we just be good at one thing, please?

You've put it in a very simplistic way, but yes.

Stamina DKs (and magicka DKs) are pretty useless in actual Cyrodiil PvP. They dont have an use in PvP raids, and in small scale youll just be ignored while your friends get overwhelmed because you dont have the burst needed to actually be dangerous.

DKs are good at being tanky in a meta where everyone is tanky by just wearing heavy armour. Useless.

What? Fighting a good strong stam dk / mag dk is one of the most scary things in Cyrodill.

leepalmer95

Rikumaru wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

With all this discussion about Stam DK, I would like to point out that they are okay in PvP and will be after the patch too. They are getting hit hard but in the end they will still be in a much better place Mag DK's in open world.

The problem is that they only are okay at PvP. By far my biggest gripe with the entire DK class is the lack of excelling at any one role.

Mag DK's in PvE = Average
Mag DK's in PvP = Terrible
Stam DK's in PvE = Not Magika
Stam DK's in PvP = Average

Let's compare that to Sorcs:

Mag Sorcs in PvE = God-Tier
Mag Sorcs in PvP = Really good
Stam Sorcs in PvE = Best Stam setup
Stam Sorcs in PvP = God-Tier

See the problem here? Can we just be good at one thing, please?

You've put it in a very simplistic way, but yes.

Stamina DKs (and magicka DKs) are pretty useless in actual Cyrodiil PvP. They dont have an use in PvP raids, and in small scale youll just be ignored while your friends get overwhelmed because you dont have the burst needed to actually be dangerous.

DKs are good at being tanky in a meta where everyone is tanky by just wearing heavy armour. Useless.

What? Fighting a good strong stam dk / mag dk is one of the most scary things in Cyrodill.

Ikr...

Xvorg

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@pieratsos
You don't seem to understand what people are getting it when it comes to Stam DK. First of all 10k Magicka is enough to gain access to your utilities that you'd use (two abilities maybe 3) since you're not consistently using magic it's fine. Secondly this class isn't about wearing heavy armor as it seems you're eluding to but you pointed out Inferno AoE; Why was that given to sorcerers whose passives benefit the DPS role so much?

Dks who play PvP rarely use Igneous weapons I mean make that's literally 4.5k without reduction if not 4.6k magicka lol. If you need Major brutality well you go to rally or flying dagger, heck even potions!

Take Flight is a garbage ultimate and was only used for being a unique ability that allows you to fly on to keeps, it's easily beaten by dawn breaker of smiting, onslaught, rend, arrow barrage,etc.

Venom Claw and Noxious breath are both DoTs which are very unfavorable in PvP as you can heal through them, shield through them, and purify/purge it.
Noxious breath is good for the debuff but try using that ability in a fight and watch it miss more than half the time even in close range. You can even watch Fengrush who was annoyed by how unreliable it is missing at close range.

Scales is unreliable AF and many people through-out this entire thread has even stated that it DOES NOT ALWAYS REFLECT. My goodness man look through the thread before posting every ability DKs have to know which functions correctly or not.

Dragon's blood still costs over 4.4k magicka without reductions and who would even bother to use that ability during a fight lol? Now you can only use igneous shield or fossilize instead of using both when needed, what happens if you use hardened armor and that goes down is that a "Oh well there it goes" moment for you?

Regarding Flames of Oblivion there is no need to make it poison damage or the other morph whatever you're saying. The ability just needs to scale off of Max resource/damage. I'm sure poison would be great for us but I'd rather cauterize go into a PBAoE Heal for those who want to heal on their Mag DK. Flames of Oblivion would also need to increase the damage done by DoT that are DK specific by X percent or increase some form of damage.

Lastly there is no synergy with Heavy armor and DK, the only thing that people love to say is the healing passive and the block passive (which is getting nerf'd or corrected since we weren't really receiving that amount to begin with lmao). The only passive that truly aligns with Stam DK as a tank would be the damaged blocked and that's it.

Stam sorcs abilities as you listed also benefit them with passives such as implosion, Power stone (reduce your ultimate cost), unholy knowledge (reduces cost of mag/stam), Energized, Expert Mage, and Capacitor. All these passives right there is what makes stam sorcs pretty good with whatever setup they tend to rock (PvP wise).


Stamblades/Stam sorcs feel unique because their class aids them in killing enemies and their abilities make it much easier to do so.

I do not follow the meta heck I even made a build video already that shows that I do not follow the meta I wear 5 Medium 2 Heavy no proc sets just maelstrom weapons (2H/bow although the bow is currently a decisive masters bow). I wear 5 Hunding + 5 Automaton. The reason why we do not feel unique is because every other class has something that benefits them completely while also benefiting group play (PvE) while Stam DKs don't have anything other than a passive that buffs minor brutality for everyone + Magma shell. We want to provide AoEs, we want to buff our allies, and we want to have skills that are fun to use instead of relying on 90% weapon skills/ultimates.

You are the one who doesnt seem to get it. So go and read again the last paragraph i wrote. All you do is explaining how each ability isnt good because it doesnt work with the meta but this is the exact thing that i said. The design of the DK doesnt work well with current state of PVP and is certainly not working well with ur build. Just because DOTs are not the meta it doesnt mean they are useless as abilities. They just dont work well in this current state of PVP. I told you make inferno a stamDK tool with secondary effects that help the DK playstyle like buff dots. But its still not going to be useful on a 2h/bow medium build that relies on burst and mobility cause simply the class isnt designed for that. And all classes use dawnbreaker. Enough with this.
And enough with this crap about abilities being useless cause they cost a ton of magicka for ur medium armor stambuild with no magicka sustain. This is not an argument. This applies for ALL classes. Streak costs even more magicka. Does that make it useless? Do you really believe that only DK abilities cost a lot and for every other stamina class their utility abilities are free? Like seriously? Go play a medium armor stamsorc with 10k magicka and tell me how many times you can streak before running out of magicka. If you want to have more utility from magicka abilities put on heavy armor or use drinks.
Just because you dont follow the meta it doesnt mean that the class should be balanced around ur build. You have utility abilities in ur class. Major mending, armor buffs, dots, passives for healing, abilities for healing, passives for snares, blocking, resistances, sustain. Do they need help? Sure they do. I said it myself and inferno will help with that. But its obvious that the class isnt designed for a bursty 2h/bow medium armor build. So dont expect the class that is designed around DOTs and taking dmg to help you with a build designed around burst and mobility. You want to play like that then reroll a stamblade or stamsorc that will help with that. What exactly did u expect when u made a medium armor 2h/bow build with zero magicka sustain? Of course you are not gonna have a use for most abilities and passives of the DK class on a build like that. Thats ur fault.

I think you dont get the real problem of DK. Our passives are crap, so any attempt to be consistent with dots or without them will lead you to a dead end with a sword and a shield hunging in the wall.

Have a look at the ardent flame passives and then look ate the other classes passives: each one of those classes has a form of getting minor buffs by using their skills. DKs? An increase in the poison/fire status. And the status ticks for like 300 dmg points. An increase in the duration of the skills, and increase in the dmg of AoE poison and flame skills (which pigeonhole you into useing a flame staff orn a bow)

Have you seen how much does surge cost? Do you know what it does? Do you know that sorcs have a 5% cost reduction in all their skills? And that, just for slotting surge sorcs get 2% extra wpn and spell dmg? Sorcs passives are so good that you can even make a hybrid without using Pelinals.

So, basically when you say that DKs have tools , you are correct, we have screwdrivers and hammers and pliers.... neverthelss, you must do a surgery with that and that's not fair.

I literally said that the DK as a class could use some tweaks to help the playstyle and make the class abilities and passives more relevant in this current state of PVP and i also suggested a buff to stamDK even tho they do actually perform very good in prety much every aspect of PVP. So what exactly is ur problem again? Do DKs have useless passives? Sure they do. But all classes have useless passives. Do you know that stam sorcs have an entire skill line with useless abilities? Do you know that sorcs also have a very good passive that they cant even utilize cause its in the stupid pet skill line and the only thing "worth" slotting from that tree is a toggle? Do you know that the stam sorc passives u mentioned with the addition of implosion , ult cost reduction and increased physical dmg are the only passives they can use? We are talking about half of their passives being useless. All you do here is pointing out the useless DK passives and the good stam sorc passives as this somehow represents the whole picture and making it sound as if stamDK are useless in PVP. Its just two completely different classes. Stam DKs dont feel unique anymore cause of this stupid meta where everyone has everything by using broken sets and potions. That doesnt mean that stamDKs are bad in PVP. They perform very well in every aspect of PVP.

And what's the use a Tank DK can make of the ardent flame passives?

Tell me, a passive that increases your health regen is a good one? A passive that gives you 2.6k spell res I suppose is great for magDKs running shields, or the passive that force you to pay at least 3050 k magicka to get 1750 stam... that's a great passive that gives you 5250 stam for depleting your magicka pool.

I know all classes have uselss passive, but no other class has only 4 or 5 useful passives for each playing style. If you go full dmg, you lose the mitigation passive, if you go full defensive, you lose the entire ardent flame line. If you are ranged stam (bow) and don't like to spend your magica otherwise magelight, you lose the entire mountain blessing line, including the helping hands passive.

Anyway, I wonder, have you ever played a DK, or your opinion comes from the theoretical approach? Because in theory I can build a beast of a DK

I didnt say DK have the best passives. But you guys just flat out said that basically all the abilities and passives are completely useless and all stam sorcs passives are good. Thats just not the truth. Stam sorcs also have 5 good passives. Every other passive is useless. And just like ur DK tank doesnt benefit from ur ardent flame passives the same way a sorc tank doesnt benefit from their dmg passives. Besides the ardent flame which i specifically said that will get better with a potential change to inferno buffing dots the other 2 skill lines have good passives for DKs. Block, healing, resistances. Are they the best? No. But they are not useless. The only flat out useless DK passive is elder dragon and it needs to be buffed by a lot or replaced by something else entirely. Earthern heart has battle roar, mountains blessing, eternal mountain and helping hands. They are all good. And yes helping hands is a very good passive. Stam DKs in PVP rely on that passive alone to sustain and they do it prety damn good. You are trying to say that ur passives are not good cause u cant utilize all of them in every situation but the fact is that this applies for all classes. There is not a single class that benefits from all their passives at every single situation.

Sorry, but why would a magDK wearing light armor consider a 2.6K spell res (because it's spell, and nothing else) a good passive?... DKs have access to both major buffs, so that passive is kind of useless. Extra blocking? Really? Maybe with the new ice staff can be somethng, but I considering not using that staff, since blocking with it stops your regem, and permablocking in that case is useess (at least with S/B you can spam igneous to get some stam back). So, do you understand the concet of a class "pigeonholed nto..."?

Regarding Battle roar, it sounds good, but it is not as good as many imagine. Useful, yes, but without dynamic ulti gen, is an expensive passive that forces you to use standard each 3 minutes and that's a lot. Helping hands summarizes the feeling of "pigeonholed into" HA and s/B. Moutain blessing has it uses, but again, how minor brutality helps a mag DK? Pre 1.6 it was a more than decent passive, but now?

All DK passives are designed for a game that doesn't exist anymore. That's pre 1.6 and ZOS has never addressed that issue. They chose a plan to carry one with the game, but never revised the entire class to see if that plan suited with what the class was offered.

At the end you look at other classes and each one of them has a way to increase their dmg throug spell or weapon dmg passives (compare the 2% extra spell or wpn dmg of a sorc with minor brutality), or increased pools, or extra regen. And DKs?

Finally:

Stam DKs in PVP rely on that passive alone to sustain and they do it prety damn good

Don't say that again. No Stam DKs looks at the earthen heart skill line except for petrify, and even in that case, they don't go around spamming petrify because it is a very expensive skill... 3 casts and you get 5k magicka. That's sustain? LOL

Xvorg

Rikumaru wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

With all this discussion about Stam DK, I would like to point out that they are okay in PvP and will be after the patch too. They are getting hit hard but in the end they will still be in a much better place Mag DK's in open world.

The problem is that they only are okay at PvP. By far my biggest gripe with the entire DK class is the lack of excelling at any one role.

Mag DK's in PvE = Average
Mag DK's in PvP = Terrible
Stam DK's in PvE = Not Magika
Stam DK's in PvP = Average

Let's compare that to Sorcs:

Mag Sorcs in PvE = God-Tier
Mag Sorcs in PvP = Really good
Stam Sorcs in PvE = Best Stam setup
Stam Sorcs in PvP = God-Tier

See the problem here? Can we just be good at one thing, please?

You've put it in a very simplistic way, but yes.

Stamina DKs (and magicka DKs) are pretty useless in actual Cyrodiil PvP. They dont have an use in PvP raids, and in small scale youll just be ignored while your friends get overwhelmed because you dont have the burst needed to actually be dangerous.

DKs are good at being tanky in a meta where everyone is tanky by just wearing heavy armour. Useless.

What? Fighting a good strong stam dk / mag dk is one of the most scary things in Cyrodill.

Until he ran out of res, and has no ulti built to recover them.

Lokey0024

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

With all this discussion about Stam DK, I would like to point out that they are okay in PvP and will be after the patch too. They are getting hit hard but in the end they will still be in a much better place Mag DK's in open world.

The problem is that they only are okay at PvP. By far my biggest gripe with the entire DK class is the lack of excelling at any one role.

Mag DK's in PvE = Average
Mag DK's in PvP = Terrible
Stam DK's in PvE = Not Magika
Stam DK's in PvP = Average

Let's compare that to Sorcs:

Mag Sorcs in PvE = God-Tier
Mag Sorcs in PvP = Really good
Stam Sorcs in PvE = Best Stam setup
Stam Sorcs in PvP = God-Tier

See the problem here? Can we just be good at one thing, please?

You've put it in a very simplistic way, but yes.

Stamina DKs (and magicka DKs) are pretty useless in actual Cyrodiil PvP. They dont have an use in PvP raids, and in small scale youll just be ignored while your friends get overwhelmed because you dont have the burst needed to actually be dangerous.

DKs are good at being tanky in a meta where everyone is tanky by just wearing heavy armour. Useless.

What? Fighting a good strong stam dk / mag dk is one of the most scary things in Cyrodill.

Ikr...

Its funny because you have all these people saying the exact opposite. If they stack all the offensive weapons given to a Stam DK on a 2h/bow build its impressive. But everyone runs 8 buffs or defensive abilities /2 offensive abilities because otherwise you get nuked in half a sec. Or everyone thinks they are king 1vXers and use the WB DB execute combo as the only offensive option and say the entire class is weak.

Easy access to all basic combat template abilities is what every class needs. Buffs, spammable abilities, finishers. Hopefully the lower then meteor cost Ult will fill the finisher niche' for the MDK.

thankyourat

Xvorg wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

With all this discussion about Stam DK, I would like to point out that they are okay in PvP and will be after the patch too. They are getting hit hard but in the end they will still be in a much better place Mag DK's in open world.

The problem is that they only are okay at PvP. By far my biggest gripe with the entire DK class is the lack of excelling at any one role.

Mag DK's in PvE = Average
Mag DK's in PvP = Terrible
Stam DK's in PvE = Not Magika
Stam DK's in PvP = Average

Let's compare that to Sorcs:

Mag Sorcs in PvE = God-Tier
Mag Sorcs in PvP = Really good
Stam Sorcs in PvE = Best Stam setup
Stam Sorcs in PvP = God-Tier

See the problem here? Can we just be good at one thing, please?

You've put it in a very simplistic way, but yes.

Stamina DKs (and magicka DKs) are pretty useless in actual Cyrodiil PvP. They dont have an use in PvP raids, and in small scale youll just be ignored while your friends get overwhelmed because you dont have the burst needed to actually be dangerous.

DKs are good at being tanky in a meta where everyone is tanky by just wearing heavy armour. Useless.

What? Fighting a good strong stam dk / mag dk is one of the most scary things in Cyrodill.

Until he ran out of res, and has no ulti built to recover them.

I don't think I ever scene a stam dk run out of resources, along with stam sorc stam dk has the best resource management in the game. You don't need ultimate as a stam dk just spam ingenious a couple times do a heavy attack and you are good to go. That's what make fighting dks such a hassle. They are impossible to burst down and they have such great resource management. I actually feel like it's the strongest class right now, If you build to it's strengths. The only thing with dk is that's basically the way the game is forcing you to play if you don't play heavy armor sword and board you are basically punished for that, but I don't think that's dk specific it's a certain way all classes have to build to be effective and if you deviate from that you are gimping yourself

Cronopoly

So predictable healing on DK is nerfed and left to chance...so people will run to Warden later? Is that the plan?

pieratsos

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@pieratsos
You don't seem to understand what people are getting it when it comes to Stam DK. First of all 10k Magicka is enough to gain access to your utilities that you'd use (two abilities maybe 3) since you're not consistently using magic it's fine. Secondly this class isn't about wearing heavy armor as it seems you're eluding to but you pointed out Inferno AoE; Why was that given to sorcerers whose passives benefit the DPS role so much?

Dks who play PvP rarely use Igneous weapons I mean make that's literally 4.5k without reduction if not 4.6k magicka lol. If you need Major brutality well you go to rally or flying dagger, heck even potions!

Take Flight is a garbage ultimate and was only used for being a unique ability that allows you to fly on to keeps, it's easily beaten by dawn breaker of smiting, onslaught, rend, arrow barrage,etc.

Venom Claw and Noxious breath are both DoTs which are very unfavorable in PvP as you can heal through them, shield through them, and purify/purge it.
Noxious breath is good for the debuff but try using that ability in a fight and watch it miss more than half the time even in close range. You can even watch Fengrush who was annoyed by how unreliable it is missing at close range.

Scales is unreliable AF and many people through-out this entire thread has even stated that it DOES NOT ALWAYS REFLECT. My goodness man look through the thread before posting every ability DKs have to know which functions correctly or not.

Dragon's blood still costs over 4.4k magicka without reductions and who would even bother to use that ability during a fight lol? Now you can only use igneous shield or fossilize instead of using both when needed, what happens if you use hardened armor and that goes down is that a "Oh well there it goes" moment for you?

Regarding Flames of Oblivion there is no need to make it poison damage or the other morph whatever you're saying. The ability just needs to scale off of Max resource/damage. I'm sure poison would be great for us but I'd rather cauterize go into a PBAoE Heal for those who want to heal on their Mag DK. Flames of Oblivion would also need to increase the damage done by DoT that are DK specific by X percent or increase some form of damage.

Lastly there is no synergy with Heavy armor and DK, the only thing that people love to say is the healing passive and the block passive (which is getting nerf'd or corrected since we weren't really receiving that amount to begin with lmao). The only passive that truly aligns with Stam DK as a tank would be the damaged blocked and that's it.

Stam sorcs abilities as you listed also benefit them with passives such as implosion, Power stone (reduce your ultimate cost), unholy knowledge (reduces cost of mag/stam), Energized, Expert Mage, and Capacitor. All these passives right there is what makes stam sorcs pretty good with whatever setup they tend to rock (PvP wise).


Stamblades/Stam sorcs feel unique because their class aids them in killing enemies and their abilities make it much easier to do so.

I do not follow the meta heck I even made a build video already that shows that I do not follow the meta I wear 5 Medium 2 Heavy no proc sets just maelstrom weapons (2H/bow although the bow is currently a decisive masters bow). I wear 5 Hunding + 5 Automaton. The reason why we do not feel unique is because every other class has something that benefits them completely while also benefiting group play (PvE) while Stam DKs don't have anything other than a passive that buffs minor brutality for everyone + Magma shell. We want to provide AoEs, we want to buff our allies, and we want to have skills that are fun to use instead of relying on 90% weapon skills/ultimates.

You are the one who doesnt seem to get it. So go and read again the last paragraph i wrote. All you do is explaining how each ability isnt good because it doesnt work with the meta but this is the exact thing that i said. The design of the DK doesnt work well with current state of PVP and is certainly not working well with ur build. Just because DOTs are not the meta it doesnt mean they are useless as abilities. They just dont work well in this current state of PVP. I told you make inferno a stamDK tool with secondary effects that help the DK playstyle like buff dots. But its still not going to be useful on a 2h/bow medium build that relies on burst and mobility cause simply the class isnt designed for that. And all classes use dawnbreaker. Enough with this.
And enough with this crap about abilities being useless cause they cost a ton of magicka for ur medium armor stambuild with no magicka sustain. This is not an argument. This applies for ALL classes. Streak costs even more magicka. Does that make it useless? Do you really believe that only DK abilities cost a lot and for every other stamina class their utility abilities are free? Like seriously? Go play a medium armor stamsorc with 10k magicka and tell me how many times you can streak before running out of magicka. If you want to have more utility from magicka abilities put on heavy armor or use drinks.
Just because you dont follow the meta it doesnt mean that the class should be balanced around ur build. You have utility abilities in ur class. Major mending, armor buffs, dots, passives for healing, abilities for healing, passives for snares, blocking, resistances, sustain. Do they need help? Sure they do. I said it myself and inferno will help with that. But its obvious that the class isnt designed for a bursty 2h/bow medium armor build. So dont expect the class that is designed around DOTs and taking dmg to help you with a build designed around burst and mobility. You want to play like that then reroll a stamblade or stamsorc that will help with that. What exactly did u expect when u made a medium armor 2h/bow build with zero magicka sustain? Of course you are not gonna have a use for most abilities and passives of the DK class on a build like that. Thats ur fault.

I think you dont get the real problem of DK. Our passives are crap, so any attempt to be consistent with dots or without them will lead you to a dead end with a sword and a shield hunging in the wall.

Have a look at the ardent flame passives and then look ate the other classes passives: each one of those classes has a form of getting minor buffs by using their skills. DKs? An increase in the poison/fire status. And the status ticks for like 300 dmg points. An increase in the duration of the skills, and increase in the dmg of AoE poison and flame skills (which pigeonhole you into useing a flame staff orn a bow)

Have you seen how much does surge cost? Do you know what it does? Do you know that sorcs have a 5% cost reduction in all their skills? And that, just for slotting surge sorcs get 2% extra wpn and spell dmg? Sorcs passives are so good that you can even make a hybrid without using Pelinals.

So, basically when you say that DKs have tools , you are correct, we have screwdrivers and hammers and pliers.... neverthelss, you must do a surgery with that and that's not fair.

I literally said that the DK as a class could use some tweaks to help the playstyle and make the class abilities and passives more relevant in this current state of PVP and i also suggested a buff to stamDK even tho they do actually perform very good in prety much every aspect of PVP. So what exactly is ur problem again? Do DKs have useless passives? Sure they do. But all classes have useless passives. Do you know that stam sorcs have an entire skill line with useless abilities? Do you know that sorcs also have a very good passive that they cant even utilize cause its in the stupid pet skill line and the only thing "worth" slotting from that tree is a toggle? Do you know that the stam sorc passives u mentioned with the addition of implosion , ult cost reduction and increased physical dmg are the only passives they can use? We are talking about half of their passives being useless. All you do here is pointing out the useless DK passives and the good stam sorc passives as this somehow represents the whole picture and making it sound as if stamDK are useless in PVP. Its just two completely different classes. Stam DKs dont feel unique anymore cause of this stupid meta where everyone has everything by using broken sets and potions. That doesnt mean that stamDKs are bad in PVP. They perform very well in every aspect of PVP.

And what's the use a Tank DK can make of the ardent flame passives?

Tell me, a passive that increases your health regen is a good one? A passive that gives you 2.6k spell res I suppose is great for magDKs running shields, or the passive that force you to pay at least 3050 k magicka to get 1750 stam... that's a great passive that gives you 5250 stam for depleting your magicka pool.

I know all classes have uselss passive, but no other class has only 4 or 5 useful passives for each playing style. If you go full dmg, you lose the mitigation passive, if you go full defensive, you lose the entire ardent flame line. If you are ranged stam (bow) and don't like to spend your magica otherwise magelight, you lose the entire mountain blessing line, including the helping hands passive.

Anyway, I wonder, have you ever played a DK, or your opinion comes from the theoretical approach? Because in theory I can build a beast of a DK

I didnt say DK have the best passives. But you guys just flat out said that basically all the abilities and passives are completely useless and all stam sorcs passives are good. Thats just not the truth. Stam sorcs also have 5 good passives. Every other passive is useless. And just like ur DK tank doesnt benefit from ur ardent flame passives the same way a sorc tank doesnt benefit from their dmg passives. Besides the ardent flame which i specifically said that will get better with a potential change to inferno buffing dots the other 2 skill lines have good passives for DKs. Block, healing, resistances. Are they the best? No. But they are not useless. The only flat out useless DK passive is elder dragon and it needs to be buffed by a lot or replaced by something else entirely. Earthern heart has battle roar, mountains blessing, eternal mountain and helping hands. They are all good. And yes helping hands is a very good passive. Stam DKs in PVP rely on that passive alone to sustain and they do it prety damn good. You are trying to say that ur passives are not good cause u cant utilize all of them in every situation but the fact is that this applies for all classes. There is not a single class that benefits from all their passives at every single situation.

Sorry, but why would a magDK wearing light armor consider a 2.6K spell res (because it's spell, and nothing else) a good passive?... DKs have access to both major buffs, so that passive is kind of useless. Extra blocking? Really? Maybe with the new ice staff can be somethng, but I considering not using that staff, since blocking with it stops your regem, and permablocking in that case is useess (at least with S/B you can spam igneous to get some stam back). So, do you understand the concet of a class "pigeonholed nto..."?

Regarding Battle roar, it sounds good, but it is not as good as many imagine. Useful, yes, but without dynamic ulti gen, is an expensive passive that forces you to use standard each 3 minutes and that's a lot. Helping hands summarizes the feeling of "pigeonholed into" HA and s/B. Moutain blessing has it uses, but again, how minor brutality helps a mag DK? Pre 1.6 it was a more than decent passive, but now?

All DK passives are designed for a game that doesn't exist anymore. That's pre 1.6 and ZOS has never addressed that issue. They chose a plan to carry one with the game, but never revised the entire class to see if that plan suited with what the class was offered.

At the end you look at other classes and each one of them has a way to increase their dmg throug spell or weapon dmg passives (compare the 2% extra spell or wpn dmg of a sorc with minor brutality), or increased pools, or extra regen. And DKs?

Finally:

Stam DKs in PVP rely on that passive alone to sustain and they do it prety damn good

Don't say that again. No Stam DKs looks at the earthen heart skill line except for petrify, and even in that case, they don't go around spamming petrify because it is a very expensive skill... 3 casts and you get 5k magicka. That's sustain? LOL

I dont see ur point. We are talking how useful are the passives for stam DKs and you bring up mDK. If you want my opinion on mDK just go back a few pages. I made plenty of posts regarding mDK and how they need buffs. We are talking about stamDK so stick to the point.

Spell res passive is useful no matter how you look at it for both stamDK and mDK. Im not exactly sure if u know how that passive or resistances in general work. Major and minor resistance buffs have nothing to do with that passive. They stack. And it also doesnt matter if u are a mDK or stamDK. You need both physical and spell resistances. Physical resistance will mitigate the incoming dmg from stamina attacks and spell resistance will mitigate the incoming dmg from magicka attacks. You need both. That passive is extra mitigation for both stam DKs and mDK. Is it the best? Like i said no. But its certainly not useless. Its still 4-5% spell dmg mitigation or something close to that.

The blocking passive helps u block more dmg. How is this not useful for DKs? Snb builds are the most common builds u see in cyro for both mDK and stamDK.

Helping hands is a very good passive to sustain ur stamina for stamDK so yes im gonna say it again. Thats not my imagination. Thats a fact. Its happening in cyrodiil. Stam DKs are running around with 600-700 regen and sustain fine. They use igneous shield to get major mending and stamina back.

Mountains blessing gives ult and minor brutality. Minor brutality is 5% wpn dmg. How the hell isnt that a good passive for stam DK? Also the fact that u are comparing minor brutality with sorc dmg passive and that u are complaining why it doesnt help ur mDK shows that u dont play any other class other than DK therefore its difficult for you to understand class balance. There are 4 different minor buffs. Each class has one. DKs have minor brutality which is useless to mDK. Sorcs have minor prophecy which is useless to stam sorcs. Templars have minor sorcery which is useless to stamplars. Nightblades have minor savagery which is useless to magicka nightblades. Those buffs are applied also to ur group not just urself. Its a way to incentivize having all four classes in a group. Class balance.

Battle roar is good. I know that it was designed with dynamic ult regen in mind but its still a good passive. And i also said im not against buffing the DK ult regen. But u cant buff the crap out of ult regen just because that passive was designed around that. It has to be implemented smartly if its going to happen. StamDK are already good in PVP. Buffing ult regen for DK can have a huge impact on class balance. Seriously people are asking to buff helping hands, battle roar and ult regen. Like really? That just means infinite sustain which leads to huge dmg. DKs will be completely overpowered. Can we please think about the possible consequences before asking for buffs all over the place?

No one is forcing you to use heavy armor. If you feel like ur pigeonhold into using heavy armor to utilize helping hands then u dont understand game mechanics and how light, medium and heavy armor works. Stam sorcs cant streak if they dont have magicka sustain. Stamblades cant cloak, fear etc if they dont have magicka sustain. Stamplars cant purge if they dont have magicka sustain. That doesnt mean they are all forced into heavy armor. Its how utility abilities works. You put on heavy armor, u have magicka sustain and u use ur utility abilities more frequently. If u are playing in medium armor you are not supposed to rely on utility abilities to sustain ur stamina. Thats why medium armor gives you cost reduction and regen. Does that mean medium armor is better than heavy? No. But thats an issue with the balance of light, medium and heavy armor. Not with the DK.

Is heavy armor useful for DKs? Yeah obviously. The class is designed to be more tanky. Its obvious from the passives and abilities. Block more dmg, more healing, more resistances, major mending, healing buffs. Dont wonder why ur passives do not give u the same dmg as the stam sorc or stamblade passives. Its two completely different classes. Thats like a stam sorc or stamblade complaining about not having major mending and defensive passives in general. Stop asking for a class overhaul just because you want more dmg. If you want more offensive passives and abilities u are playing the wrong class.

You asked me in a different post if im playing a DK. Im playing all four classes and my main is a DK. I understand how each class is designed and their issues. The problem is that u dont play anything else other than a DK so its difficult for you to understand class balance. You seem to think that every class in the game has everything except the class you play. Your complaint about minor brutality being useless to ur mDK and the comparison u made with sorc dmg passives clearly shows that.

DragonBound

Kilandros wrote: »

Riggsy wrote: »

PandaIsAPotato wrote: »

As someone who mained Stam DK after they butchered Mag DK, it doesn't need to feel unique, it has everything in it's toolkit to preform perfectly fine in any situation in PvP. The class itself still needs to be tweaked though, and that in turn could help you, I would also prefer the poison crap to be reverted to flame but asking for straight Stam DK buffs is not the way to go, ask for buffs to the base class, regardless of what spec you play.

Doesnt need to feel unique, really? Then why does every other class get their unique functions? Seriously, absent 3 abilities many stamDK players run non-class skills. Moreover, that "toolkit" is not class based but founded on Vitality pots, malubeth and other sets. And revert to flame? So CP points spent for physical/poison would be useless and require splitting=less damage.The proper solution would be more morphs that cater to stam builds along with reworking the high mag costs for magDKs.

This just isn't true. Maybe if you took the time to play Stam DK without cheese sets like Tumorscale you'd be able to see that the Stam DK toolkit (Battle Roar, Major Mending, Minor Brutality, Minor Vitality, just to name a few) is actually quite good. But, that would require you to actually play the class and not just rely on the procs to play for you. Yes, I recognize your name from TF. You run a cancer build - of course you don't appreciate Stam DK's potential because you spam Puncture and hold block all day. I'd be bored too.

I'm guessing you want Stam DK to be the next OP FoTM class like Stam Sorc that just totally relies on various proc abilities while having infinite sustain without compromising damage. No thanks.

Sorry but I just had to ooouuuuch!

MaxwellC

@thankyourat
See I don't play heavy armor but I run 5 medium 2 heavy as a redguard I also run max health/stam regen food. I run out of resources sitting at just almost 1400 regen so I wish I could speak to some of the DKs you've faced who some how never run out of sustain. I'm consistently having sustain issues the only time I never had it PvP wise is when I used my old build which gave me just about 2000 stamina regen; With that amount of regen I wasn't having issues at all but I'd still run out of stamina if the fight progressed too long.

Maybe you're confusing the class with a stam sorc ? Dark deal a couple times and you're all set, not like they need to use max health/regen food anyway.

ManDraKE

MaxwellC wrote: »

@thankyourat
See I don't play heavy armor but I run 5 medium 2 heavy as a redguard I also run max health/stam regen food. I run out of resources sitting at just almost 1400 regen so I wish I could speak to some of the DKs you've faced who some how never run out of sustain. I'm consistently having sustain issues the only time I never had it PvP wise is when I used my old build which gave me just about 2000 stamina regen; With that amount of regen I wasn't having issues at all but I'd still run out of stamina if the fight progressed too long.

Maybe you're confusing the class with a stam sorc ? Dark deal a couple times and you're all set, not like they need to use max health/regen food anyway.

6 heavy + 1 medium, max hp+max stam food with constitution passive, redguard pasive, and bloodspawn+heroic slash bush for ulti regen, will give you all the sustain you need. If you run out of resources with that setup, then is your mistake not managing your resources properly. Is not "infinite" sustain as a sorc, but is indeed the best next thing.

For a DK heavy armor you don't go for the regen route, you go for max stam pool and high cost reduction.

Valencer

Rikumaru wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

With all this discussion about Stam DK, I would like to point out that they are okay in PvP and will be after the patch too. They are getting hit hard but in the end they will still be in a much better place Mag DK's in open world.

The problem is that they only are okay at PvP. By far my biggest gripe with the entire DK class is the lack of excelling at any one role.

Mag DK's in PvE = Average
Mag DK's in PvP = Terrible
Stam DK's in PvE = Not Magika
Stam DK's in PvP = Average

Let's compare that to Sorcs:

Mag Sorcs in PvE = God-Tier
Mag Sorcs in PvP = Really good
Stam Sorcs in PvE = Best Stam setup
Stam Sorcs in PvP = God-Tier

See the problem here? Can we just be good at one thing, please?

You've put it in a very simplistic way, but yes.

Stamina DKs (and magicka DKs) are pretty useless in actual Cyrodiil PvP. They dont have an use in PvP raids, and in small scale youll just be ignored while your friends get overwhelmed because you dont have the burst needed to actually be dangerous.

DKs are good at being tanky in a meta where everyone is tanky by just wearing heavy armour. Useless.

What? Fighting a good strong stam dk / mag dk is one of the most scary things in Cyrodill.

Why? because you cant kill them easily?

In between the lack of reliable hard CCs and built-in burst that DK is going to have just as much of a hard time killing you. Youre 10x better off playing a stamblade if you want to actually kill people, and if you want to be tanky just play a magicka templar because then you can actually do something useful, like healing allies.

Ive had 2 meta black rose+selene stam DKs whack away at me for ages without a sweat. Meanwhile 1 stamblade can actually do really good timed burst - proc sets, incap strike and fear - and that's gotten the better of me at least once or twice that I can remember.

Magicka DK might be slightly better than stamina DK with the next update because of the whip damage increase, reliable self-heal (only took them 1.5 years) and the fact proc sets like selene and viper are taking a hit. Jury's still out on that one though

Stamden

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

You've left mDK's disappointed with this patch. Universally people agree that this patch is not going to do much of anything for mDK's in PvP.

Part of the problem was that the changes do not directly impact the playstyle that we are pigeonholed into. I would like to run chains on my bar as much as the next guy, but if half the time it doesn't cast then it is not worth the slot. I would like to run Leap but Destro and Meteor are just far superior options. I would like to run Obsidian shard, but Petrify is the only CC we have room for and Obsidian shard simply is not as good. The changes to these skills just won't have much impact.

The other part of the problem is that we got hit with a ton of indirect nerfs. Wings already had extremely situational use. With them not blocking pulse anymore, there is no reason to have this skill on our bar. Our main sets got destroyed this patch (Trainee, Desert Rose, even Black Rose). Now we are in a situation where we either need to run Heavy and run out of resources immediately, or Light and get blown up immediately. Here is the absolute truth: this gear problem is more significant than all of the mDK buffs combined. These resource management issues are at the core of what makes mDK underperform.

Considering there is very little time left before the patch drops, here is one change that will solve a multitude of DK problems, that is quick to implement and has no risk for disbalance: Reduce our ability costs

Please, just give us this one thing, and maybe some of us can stick around until Vvardenfell, where hopefully the rest of the problems DKs face can be worked on.

Valencer

Constitution didnt get nerfed at all. Desert Rose got nerfed, but procs more reliably so it will still be a very good set that can give you about 1200 extra effective magicka regen (that procs through mist form) if it procs off cooldown.

The homestead update is actually doing a lot of good stuff for magicka DKs...

MaxwellC

@ManDraKE I don't play Heavy armor Meta in PvP now ofc in PvE content I use heavy armor if I'm tanking but that's it. That entire setup seems extremely easy to counter I mean you're already limited range from what I'm guessing you're going 2h/SnB or DW/SnB.
Open world PvP that does not work only dueling. I've faced countless HA DKs rocking tremorscale using a 2H/SnB setup most likely using Black rose and they're easy to kill. All I need to do is inject from a far use stampede and line up my onslaught with a heavy attack and watch them drop. Stam DKs with mobility are annoying to kill and as I'm one myself fighting another becomes a game of boxing.

Sugaroverdose

Valencer wrote: »

Constitution didnt get nerfed at all. Desert Rose got nerfed, but procs more reliably so it will still be a very good set that can give you about 1200 extra effective magicka regen (that procs through mist form) if it procs off cooldown.

The homestead update is actually doing a lot of good stuff for magicka DKs...

Sorry, but desert rose doesn't proc every second even if you stand in a middle of a zerg, with 4s cooldown and 15% chance it also will not instantly proc on CD, fun fact - get nerfed black rose add nerfed desert rose, some pieces in sturdy and you still can block for days with frost staff+S&B whatever your class is.

The only thing is sounds good for magdk is third version of cDB, problem is - lack of execute: mDK will still burn he's magicka on shields or when trying to catch permarollingvigordarkdealnotOPatall sorcs.

I've said it earlier and repeat now - best magdk buff would be overall healing nerf to make it the same way viable as live CDB, instead they get 5% damage boost on lash(like it deal so huge amount of damage that this 5% make big difference), boosted useless volatile armor dot, nerf of standard, nerf of wings and get undodgable gapcloser which casts are successful only in 10% of times(and forces you to drop your pressure or defensive abilities so it's not an option).

nml

Chadwikid wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Wana your beloved class to be great - do something worth for it, beside wining,

It was put together with the help of all of the remaining PvP mDk's, myself included, the most vocal and visible and probably one of if not the best, mDK left in the game.

What? Did you just big yourself up as the best mDK in the game?

I also question your use of the word "all".

Valencer

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Constitution didnt get nerfed at all. Desert Rose got nerfed, but procs more reliably so it will still be a very good set that can give you about 1200 extra effective magicka regen (that procs through mist form) if it procs off cooldown.

The homestead update is actually doing a lot of good stuff for magicka DKs...

Sorry, but desert rose doesn't proc every second even if you stand in a middle of a zerg, with 4s cooldown and 15% chance it also will not instantly proc on CD, fun fact - get nerfed black rose add nerfed desert rose, some pieces in sturdy and you still can block for days with frost staff+S&B whatever your class is.

The only thing is sounds good for magdk is third version of cDB, problem is - lack of execute: mDK will still burn he's magicka on shields or when trying to catch permarollingvigordarkdealnotOPatall sorcs.

I've said it earlier and repeat now - best magdk buff would be overall healing nerf to make it the same way viable as live CDB, instead they get 5% damage boost on lash(like it deal so huge amount of damage that this 5% make big difference), boosted useless volatile armor dot, nerf of standard, nerf of wings and get undodgable gapcloser which casts are successful only in 10% of times.

It might not proc off cooldown reliably but it will sure as hell proc a lot with a 15% chance. That's once every 7 hits, up from once every 10 hits. As far as I know this also includes DoT ticks etc so that's really good. The moment you have more than one player focusing you this thing will give you a lot of extra magicka sustain.

Wings is a pretty pointless skill now, yes. But most DKs already dont use it anymore on the live server because it's already not worth it, since youre pretty much pidgeonholed into running heavy armour anyway and taking some hits in heavy isnt so bad anyway. Sad fact, but it does mean not much will change in that department.

Rikumaru

Valencer wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

With all this discussion about Stam DK, I would like to point out that they are okay in PvP and will be after the patch too. They are getting hit hard but in the end they will still be in a much better place Mag DK's in open world.

The problem is that they only are okay at PvP. By far my biggest gripe with the entire DK class is the lack of excelling at any one role.

Mag DK's in PvE = Average
Mag DK's in PvP = Terrible
Stam DK's in PvE = Not Magika
Stam DK's in PvP = Average

Let's compare that to Sorcs:

Mag Sorcs in PvE = God-Tier
Mag Sorcs in PvP = Really good
Stam Sorcs in PvE = Best Stam setup
Stam Sorcs in PvP = God-Tier

See the problem here? Can we just be good at one thing, please?

You've put it in a very simplistic way, but yes.

Stamina DKs (and magicka DKs) are pretty useless in actual Cyrodiil PvP. They dont have an use in PvP raids, and in small scale youll just be ignored while your friends get overwhelmed because you dont have the burst needed to actually be dangerous.

DKs are good at being tanky in a meta where everyone is tanky by just wearing heavy armour. Useless.

What? Fighting a good strong stam dk / mag dk is one of the most scary things in Cyrodill.

Why? because you cant kill them easily?

In between the lack of reliable hard CCs and built-in burst that DK is going to have just as much of a hard time killing you. Youre 10x better off playing a stamblade if you want to actually kill people, and if you want to be tanky just play a magicka templar because then you can actually do something useful, like healing allies.

Ive had 2 meta black rose+selene stam DKs whack away at me for ages without a sweat. Meanwhile 1 stamblade can actually do really good timed burst - proc sets, incap strike and fear - and that's gotten the better of me at least once or twice that I can remember.

Magicka DK might be slightly better than stamina DK with the next update because of the whip damage increase, reliable self-heal (only took them 1.5 years) and the fact proc sets like selene and viper are taking a hit. Jury's still out on that one though

Well true they are for me the hardest class to kill. But as for a 1 on 1 fight with a Stam dk, they can put up more pressure than an NB can with their DOTs and have the best healing the game. I don't want it to be nerfed or anything since as other people have said, DKs should be able to stand their ground but when people start complaining about stam dk not getting any updates, it's because it's in a good spot in PvP right now and is one of the strongest classes (imo).

Armitas

PTS wrap up.

ZOS

The update to dragonblood was good, I'm very pleased with it. Even though our sustain issues didn't make it to this update we have made several steps forward. But unfortunately there is still one very large step backwards and that is the nerf to reflect. Revert that nerf and this update will be a success despite the things you couldn't get to this time. However if you leave the nerf in then this long anticipated update will be highly disputable as a success. The change to reflect crushes our viability against other magic classes in a way that dragonblood may not compensate for.

Make this update a win and revert the reflect nerf.

(I suggest everyone wrap up their feedback for what must happen before this goes live in a few days.)

kalimar44

I'm a DK stamina build that plays on the ps 4, and after reading all these post I'm really bummed about this update coming out. None of you sound happy at all and it doesn't seem like Zen even listens to us.

NBrookus

My wrap up:

I recognize that making mDK more viable in PvP was a challenge when stamDKs are strong and mDK performs well in PvE. I was hoping for a creative reimagining like stam sorcs got -- perhaps without making mDKs as OP as stam sorcs are. Instead I feel like our promised buffs were mostly phoned in. We got a few tweaks that largely ignored the three things mDK needed:

• healing (check, we got that)
• sustain (indirectly nerfed)
• either burst damage or a way to counter cheap healing and purging (flame leap just doesn't address this)

The new heal is very solid and much appreciated. It's not BoL, but it shouldn't be. The minor damage buffs to whip and Volatile Armor are welcome but not really significant. Unfortunately the nerf to Wings plus the nerfs to armor sets that mDKs rely on to deal with our sustain issues may override any of the buffs we got.

Finally, as long as chains is still broken, you can buff it all you want: it isn't a viable skill when 50% of the time you get a "too high/too low" error because there's a tiny stick on the ground or a 1% elevation change.

I think we will be in a slightly better place because we can reliably heal now. But we aren't fixed. I agree with @Armitas that the simplest thing you can do at this late date to limit the negatives done to this class is to un-nerf Wings.

Xvorg

Spell res passive is useful no matter how you look at it for both stamDK and mDK. Im not exactly sure if u know how that passive or resistances in general work. Major and minor resistance buffs have nothing to do with that passive. They stack. And it also doesnt matter if u are a mDK or stamDK. You need both physical and spell resistances. Physical resistance will mitigate the incoming dmg from stamina attacks and spell resistance will mitigate the incoming dmg from magicka attacks. You need both. That passive is extra mitigation for both stam DKs and mDK. Is it the best? Like i said no. But its certainly not useless. Its still 4-5% spell dmg mitigation or something close to that.

Tell, how can be useful an increase in spell resistance for an mDK that's 75% of the time using a shield to protect himself? Or a HA tank who can reach max spell res without that passive? Is it useful for a HA stam user? Maybe, but with sharpen being bis, that spell res increase increases penetration too.

The blocking passive helps u block more dmg. How is this not useful for DKs? Snb builds are the most common builds u see in cyro for both mDK and stamDK.

What if I don't want to play a S/B HA DK? See, that's what I mean wth "pigeonholed". It is not "popular" because it's trendy, it is the only way you have to play the game

Helping hands is a very good passive to sustain ur stamina for stamDK so yes im gonna say it again. Thats not my imagination. Thats a fact. Its happening in cyrodiil. Stam DKs are running around with 600-700 regen and sustain fine. They use igneous shield to get major mending and stamina back.

Tell me, how much do those abilities cost for a stam DK? They are EXPENSIVE because all of the cost MAGICKA and Stam DKs run with a very small MAGICKA POOL and the return of stam is 5% max stam. In a 40k stam build, the return is 2K stamina. So, If you use fossilize (the cheapest skill in the earthe heart line) you are trading 3.5K magicka for 2K stamina... and we are talking about stamDKs with magicka pools smaller than 12K. IN THEORY, what yo say is OK, but in the practice, the passive is, at its best, situational.

Mountains blessing gives ult and minor brutality. Minor brutality is 5% wpn dmg. How the hell isnt that a good passive for stam DK? Also the fact that u are comparing minor brutality with sorc dmg passive and that u are complaining why it doesnt help ur mDK shows that u dont play any other class other than DK therefore its difficult for you to understand class balance. There are 4 different minor buffs. Each class has one. DKs have minor brutality which is useless to mDK. Sorcs have minor prophecy which is useless to stam sorcs. Templars have minor sorcery which is useless to stamplars. Nightblades have minor savagery which is useless to magicka nightblades. Those buffs are applied also to ur group not just urself. Its a way to incentivize having all four classes in a group. Class balance.

For a stam DK is kind of useful, nevertheless that's not the point. As stated above, whats the incentive for stam DKs to slot earthen heart skills? They sound very good in THEORY but in the practice they are a waste of slots. Fossilize is your best shot.

Battle roar is good. I know that it was designed with dynamic ult regen in mind but its still a good passive. And i also said im not against buffing the DK ult regen. But u cant buff the crap out of ult regen just because that passive was designed around that. It has to be implemented smartly if its going to happen. StamDK are already good in PVP. Buffing ult regen for DK can have a huge impact on class balance. Seriously people are asking to buff helping hands, battle roar and ult regen. Like really? That just means infinite sustain which leads to huge dmg. DKs will be completely overpowered. Can we please think about the possible consequences before asking for buffs all over the place?

How much res do you get for using a cheap ulti like DBoS? It is not even meaningful. The more expensive the ulti, the bigger the restored pools. Again, It seems everything you say comes from theory and not practice.

No one is forcing you to use heavy armor. If you feel like ur pigeonhold into using heavy armor to utilize helping hands then u dont understand game mechanics and how light, medium and heavy armor works. Stam sorcs cant streak if they dont have magicka sustain. Stamblades cant cloak, fear etc if they dont have magicka sustain. Stamplars cant purge if they dont have magicka sustain. That doesnt mean they are all forced into heavy armor. Its how utility abilities works. You put on heavy armor, u have magicka sustain and u use ur utility abilities more frequently. If u are playing in medium armor you are not supposed to rely on utility abilities to sustain ur stamina. Thats why medium armor gives you cost reduction and regen. Does that mean medium armor is better than heavy? No. But thats an issue with the balance of light, medium and heavy armor. Not with the DK.

Sorry, but all that you said there is... how can I tell you? Wrong. As a sorc can't streak forever, a stamDK can't spam petrify forevere to get stam back. In fact a sorc has more than 3 chances to streak in a row. Besides that, NBs, Sorcs and Templars have skills that regenerate magicka in one way or another. DKs? Nah.

Is heavy armor useful for DKs? Yeah obviously. The class is designed to be more tanky. Its obvious from the passives and abilities. Block more dmg, more healing, more resistances, major mending, healing buffs. Dont wonder why ur passives do not give u the same dmg as the stam sorc or stamblade passives. Its two completely different classes. Thats like a stam sorc or stamblade complaining about not having major mending and defensive passives in general. Stop asking for a class overhaul just because you want more dmg. If you want more offensive passives and abilities u are playing the wrong class.

The class is also designed to use flame and poison dmg. HA doesn't help to fulfill that design. Nevertheless you are right at this point: " Its two completely different classes". So, if stamDK is a different class from stamblade, or stamsorc, why it does feel like a 2hander and not a stamDK. Because there's nothing the class give to the stam user, and under tha PoV, it is far from being unique.

You asked me in a different post if im playing a DK. Im playing all four classes and my main is a DK. I understand how each class is designed and their issues. The problem is that u dont play anything else other than a DK so its difficult for you to understand class balance. You seem to think that every class in the game has everything except the class you play. Your complaint about minor brutality being useless to ur mDK and the comparison u made with sorc dmg passives clearly shows that.

My apologies, but I don't believe you play a DK. Not even a NB. You don't even know the Executioner passive of NBs (otherwise you should know it is the way a NB keeps on cloaking after killing). You even consider helping hand is a good passive for stam return (lol) in a stamDK (without looking at the magicka polls stamDKs have). What I believe, based on what you write, is that you are a sorc and you are afraid of the changes to DK, but don't worry, they will have little to no impact when the patch comes. So you can spam your shield as always.
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I play mostly DK, NB and now I'm starting Sorc. I've been playing the first 2 classes for almost 3 years. I'm one of the guys who is very pissed off for the nerfs done to mageblade and I've even suggested frost dmg in some skills. Also I was one of the guys who claimed against the change to velocious, but I grant you I know little to nothing about sorcs (except they're quite easy to play). So I believe I know better than you about the position where DKs are at this point...

ManDraKE

MaxwellC wrote: »

@ManDraKE I don't play Heavy armor Meta in PvP now ofc in PvE content I use heavy armor if I'm tanking but that's it. That entire setup seems extremely easy to counter I mean you're already limited range from what I'm guessing you're going 2h/SnB or DW/SnB.
Open world PvP that does not work only dueling. I've faced countless HA DKs rocking tremorscale using a 2H/SnB setup most likely using Black rose and they're easy to kill. All I need to do is inject from a far use stampede and line up my onslaught with a heavy attack and watch them drop. Stam DKs with mobility are annoying to kill and as I'm one myself fighting another becomes a game of boxing.

if you don't play heavy, you will have to invest A LOT in sustain or you will have problem, is not just a DK thing. I play stamblade medium armor and in order to sustain i have to use drinks + serpent + a set with 1 or 2 stam recovery bonuses.
This is not a problem with the DK sustain, is just that medium armor sucks compared to heavy, simple as that.

usmcjdking

Armitas wrote: »

PTS wrap up.

ZOS

The update to dragonblood was good, I'm very pleased with it. Even though our sustain issues didn't make it to this update we have made several steps forward. But unfortunately there is still one very large step backwards and that is the nerf to reflect. Revert that nerf and this update will be a success despite the things you couldn't get to this time. However if you leave the nerf in then this long anticipated update will be highly disputable as a success. The change to reflect crushes our viability against other magic classes in a way that dragonblood may not compensate for.

Make this update a win and revert the reflect nerf.

(I suggest everyone wrap up their feedback for what must happen before this goes live in a few days.)

Disagree.

A main spammable attack as weak as crushing shock should not be so easily negated.

Armitas

usmcjdking wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

PTS wrap up.

ZOS

The update to dragonblood was good, I'm very pleased with it. Even though our sustain issues didn't make it to this update we have made several steps forward. But unfortunately there is still one very large step backwards and that is the nerf to reflect. Revert that nerf and this update will be a success despite the things you couldn't get to this time. However if you leave the nerf in then this long anticipated update will be highly disputable as a success. The change to reflect crushes our viability against other magic classes in a way that dragonblood may not compensate for.

Make this update a win and revert the reflect nerf.

(I suggest everyone wrap up their feedback for what must happen before this goes live in a few days.)

Disagree.

A main spammable attack as weak as crushing shock should not be so easily negated.

That would be fine if we also had a spammable attack against a sorc, but we don't because we are a magicka melee class restrained from damage by waves of encases, mobility, and mine kiting. That was the balance, they didn't have a spammable attack, and neither did we. Now they have one and we don't.

That is the gist of it, I went into detail earlier in the thread on 872.

thankyourat

MaxwellC wrote: »

@thankyourat
See I don't play heavy armor but I run 5 medium 2 heavy as a redguard I also run max health/stam regen food. I run out of resources sitting at just almost 1400 regen so I wish I could speak to some of the DKs you've faced who some how never run out of sustain. I'm consistently having sustain issues the only time I never had it PvP wise is when I used my old build which gave me just about 2000 stamina regen; With that amount of regen I wasn't having issues at all but I'd still run out of stamina if the fight progressed too long.

Maybe you're confusing the class with a stam sorc ? Dark deal a couple times and you're all set, not like they need to use max health/regen food anyway.

Yes but you not playing in heavy armor is gimping yourself. Not only do you lose out on so much sustain from not using heavy. you can get the same damage as your build in heavy armor because you can use max stam food instead of regen. So that's a extra 5000 stam which equals about 500 weapon damage. And you can still go 2 hand and bow. Like you could wear 5 fury, 1 Kena, 1 velidreth 3willpower. That's a heavy armor set up that will hit just as hard as any medium set up. Medium has sustain problems as does light. Every class that uses medium has to stack loads of regen to be effective. (Except stam sorc but that class is broken) I don't think it's the fact that dk has sustain problems I think that's a medium armor problem. And even still a dk doesn't need as much regen, as a stamblade or stamplar. It looks like your problem is with medium. I understand you don't want to run the meta I try to never run the destro ultimate but when we do that we gimp ourselves