So, here we vote. Do you want proc sets crit to be nerfed/removed?

Arthg

Yes

Browiseth wrote: »

Arthg wrote: »

I'd really love it if there were no percentage-based proc sets.
No RNG in combat at all.
Just pure skill.

I'd love it.

don't they have MOBAs for that

Sorry, I fail to see the relevance of your remark: are you telling me to play another game because I don't like RNG combat mechanics?

Rohamad_Ali

I don't really care

starkerealm wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Nerf it , remove it , whatever . If I never seen another proc suit I would not cry . I think they are all a gear stacking gimmick to remove skill from the game anyways . I would be fine with no sets at all , just armor with base stat bonuses . All of these things just lead to crafters becoming obsolete and power creep . Just my opinion again .

Sets can be interesting. As in really interesting for builds. As examples, here are two set bonuses from games that are not ESO. The Division has a riot shield active ability. Normally you can only use your pistol while you have it active. But, the Frontline set allows you to use an SMG while you have your shield out instead. Grim Dawn has a set that allows you to dual wield pistols (normally this isn't possible).

You know what's interesting? TBS. Stuff like that. A set that let you slot a 1h melee weapon on hand, and a staff off hand, and gave you access sword and board along with the relevant staff skills?

How about a set that, when complete, causes your heavy armor to count as medium armor for passives (excluding ones that require 5 pieces of medium equipped)?

Conceptually, I'm rather fond of Vampire Lord. I don't think there's a real role for it, but the boost to Vampires is kinda cool. Similarly, Salvation is kinda interesting now. Very narrow use, but, hey, it helps werewolves.

Yes but they get out of control in every game . We started with simple stuff like Willow's path and ashen grip and it turned to a landslide of easy mode vipers and velidreth or salene . Then players get use to pushing one button and the armor does all the rest of the work . I just don't like gear being more important then character build .

Browiseth

No

Arthg wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

Arthg wrote: »

I'd really love it if there were no percentage-based proc sets.
No RNG in combat at all.
Just pure skill.

I'd love it.

don't they have MOBAs for that

Sorry, I fail to see the relevance of your remark: are you telling me to play another game because I don't like RNG combat mechanics?

i'm not telling you to do anything
just a friendly heads up is all

nordsavage

No

PvE revolves around crit. If you think removing crit from anything is a good idea you do not understand all the passives, buffs and abilities tied to it.

#puglife

hingarthuub17_ESO

No

I voted 'no'. I don't rely on crits on proc sets, but when I get 'em, they're fun

Anacario

No

I just got divines Ilambris for PvE, please don't do this to me.

TequilaFire

I don't really care

I think this speculation is premature until the patch hits the PTS and we get the full picture of all the adjustments to sets and class skills.
You may find this is the least of our problems! lmao

nordsavage

No

TequilaFire wrote: »

I think this speculation is premature until the patch hits the PTS and we get the full picture of all the adjustments to sets and class skills.
You may find this is the least of our problems! lmao

It is never too early fight the good fight. You have to get on top of these stupid changes right away if there is any chance the devs will come down off of their high horses and realize they are making a mistake. Usually when something is announced this close to test and release then it often set in stone. When things are already in motion you have to fight harder.

Blackfyre20

redspecter23 wrote: »

I think they need a nerf, but not the one that we're getting.

Need an "other" option because this

code65536

No

It's a dumb, lazy "fix". Full stop.

One of the biggest complaint about these sets do damage that does not scale with skill. First, because in many cases, these sets mean that someone can just light-attack to proc a large amount of damage. Second, these sets only scale off of CP, not off of weapon/spell damage and max stamina/magicka. When you spec for survivability, you should suffer a loss in damage potential as a result. These sets largely ignore that tradeoff. Now, with the removal of crit, you are only exacerbating this problem, as builds who rely on proc sets suffer no penalty for trading crit for other stats.

In short, for the kinds of heavy-armor PvP builds that rely heavily on procs to bypass the survivability-vs-damage tradeoff, the elimination of crit doesn't really hurt them.

Second, you have seen some of the proc sets? Some are clearly overperforming compared to others. Compare 5p Red Mountain vs. 5p Ashen Grip, for example. This relegates the underperforming or performing-just-right sets to the trash bin in order to bring some of the overtuned sets down. Nobody has a reason to use Bogdan now--take away that crit, and they'll have even less reason to use it.

The solution for too much burst from these sets isn't to remove crit: it's to change these instant-damage procs into over-time damage so that players can have a chance to properly react (and since PvE is about sustained damage, this would not adversely affect PvE). To solution to proc sets being "cheesy" is to make the damage crittable and make the damage scale off of someone's highest WD/SD and resource pools so that builds that sacrifice these traditional damage stats face the appropriate tradeoffs. Eliminating these sorts of tradeoffs is the exact opposite of what you should be doing.

Jazbay_Grape

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Nerf it , remove it , whatever . If I never seen another proc suit I would not cry . I think they are all a gear stacking gimmick to remove skill from the game anyways . I would be fine with no sets at all , just armor with base stat bonuses . All of these things just lead to crafters becoming obsolete and power creep . Just my opinion again .

Same. Btw, your responses generally creep me out, because it's pretty much always the same thing that I was going to say. Creepy. Bizarro Grape.

Ch4mpTW

No

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

It's really simple. @ZOS_RichLambert the changes should only apply when entering a PvP campaign

@NewBlacksmurf Great to see you're still around and kicking, comrade. And yes, you put it perfectly. PvE players shouldn't be forced to deal with changes and things of the sort that effect PvP.

Kram8ion

I don't really care

Meh I'm not really fussed it certainly doesn't address the issue but may enjoy a bit of alteration play with my toon

Vaoh

Now THAT is a split poll

I'm going to make another. It needs to be more specific with how the proc set nerf has been handled.

mtwiggz

Proc sets as a whole need a look at, individually.

Skoria many patches ago was over performing. The developers looked into the set and gave it a nerf, not every single other proc set in the game. Low and behold they did indeed over nerf Skoria, but at least in that instance they took the proper path.

Not all proc sets are over performing. So not all proc sets should be changed with a blanket fix. Removing critical hits from proc sets will hurt magicka builds, who are already struggling, more so than it will hurt stamina builds that are ruling the playing field.

This is a very bad decision from @ZOS_RichLambert and @Wrobel that should not make it to PTS, let alone make it to live. Something else needs to be done. Longer time between procs, lower damage, etc. on the sets that are blatantly over performing. Then leave the sets that are performing fine alone.

It would help if ZoS would actually hot fix things as well. Not just leave broken mechanics in the game for 3-4 months waiting for a major patch. It's pathetic.

EldritchPenguin

Yes

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

It's really simple. @ZOS_RichLambert the changes should only apply when entering a PvP campaign

@NewBlacksmurf Great to see you're still around and kicking, comrade. And yes, you put it perfectly. PvE players shouldn't be forced to deal with changes and things of the sort that effect PvP.

I think it was pretty clear that they explicitly intended the crit change to impact PvE by virtue of proc sets such as Ilambris and Grothdarr overperforming.

Proc sets
We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

Nowhere in there does it single out proc sets overperforming in PvP, they just say that they want to tone them down. Could there have been a better way to handle this? Yes. But is this an example of PvE suffering for the sake of PvP balance? Definitely not.

kevlarto_ESO

Yes

The only way to really fix them is to remove them, but I will take heavy nerfs, this game needs to get away from fotms and have a little diversity in our play, proc sets, destroy ultimate's, two handers, really kinda sucks seeing 90% of players running around doing the same thing, so much for any kind of individuality.

leepalmer95

Yes

To be honest everyone should just stop crying and wait for the pts before casting votes and going all doom and gloom.

acw37162

Vote on a sneak peak.

Everyone should abstain until you have the whole patch notes.

No one outside of Baltimore has any idea what other changes are in the pipeline.

Recremen

Yes

This is the most even poll I've seen here. Very impressive.

Blackfyre20

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

...I just don't like gear being more important then character build .

Without soft caps gear will always be most important

SaRuZ

No

They need to nerf Destro Ult while they're at it.

Eye of The Flame - 20k AoE Damage
Detonation - 13k AoE Damage

33k AoE Damage

VS

Viper - 8k DoT Damage
Tremorscale - 8k DoT Damage

16k DoT Damage


Now, with Dragonguard traited out for Ulti gen, you have a sick Destro Ult God.

FearlessOne_2014

mtwiggz wrote: »

Proc sets as a whole need a look at, individually.

Skoria many patches ago was over performing. The developers looked into the set and gave it a nerf, not every single other proc set in the game. Low and behold they did indeed over nerf Skoria, but at least in that instance they took the proper path.

Not all proc sets are over performing. So not all proc sets should be changed with a blanket fix. Removing critical hits from proc sets will hurt magicka builds, who are already struggling, more so than it will hurt stamina builds that are ruling the playing field.

This is a very bad decision from @ZOS_RichLambert and @Wrobel that should not make it to PTS, let alone make it to live. Something else needs to be done. Longer time between procs, lower damage, etc. on the sets that are blatantly over performing. Then leave the sets that are performing fine alone.

It would help if ZoS would actually hot fix things as well. Not just leave broken mechanics in the game for 3-4 months waiting for a major patch. It's pathetic.

How else is ZOS going to sell it's race changes if everything was balanced. This is why real competitive PvPers don't play MMOs for PvP. MMOs these days make more money off of intentional imbalance. It actually would be a loss in profits if MMOs of these times would be balance. or at least balance.

On the other hand since MOBAs make their money from people actually liking the competition and what not. They focus on balancing many many many more things then MMO companies do way more often. This is to keep players interested in it's PvP. So they balance every 2 weeks or less to achieve this, because a unbalanced MOBA is a failed and non profiting MOBA.

MMOs = PvE focused games, some of which have PvP on the side not the core of the game. Also a place for players to just joke around and socialize. (Theme Park)

MOBAs = Dedicated PvP games for players to compete and prove their mettle. (Sports)

It's really as simple as that. Any gamer who has been around the block a few time can see this. I thoughts on the matter is, I expect the MMO genre to continue on this path to lure and bait out whales to spend more money in their micro transaction markets. Most of these players have no interest on being good at the game. But if you allow them to win via handicaps such as Stacking Proc sets then they are more likely to feel good about the product and just throw more money at it. Hence imbalance classes and gear in MMOs equal more money. Like in DLCs and such. It's just the way this genre has turned these days. That's why many MMOs are starting to fail and loss people's interests to the Co'Op and multi player games.

Doctordarkspawn

No

Simply put:

The people who want to remove proc sets alltogether either miss the point or are trying to justify decisions after the fact.

Proc sets, in the old way, like Skoria, and Neri'neth, have allways complemented build. Neri'neth was the oblivous choice for sorcs. Skoria, for templars. And everything in between. They complemented certain build setups.

This is why the blanket nerf is such a big problem, because there -are- sets that need looked at. Grothdar, for example. Velindreth. But the core sets, some old sets, some new, still have worth in that they are a compliment to a good build, not the soul reason for it's existance.

Their not the cause of all your ills. And PVE should not suffer for PVP witchburning.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

When will you "wait till the PTS" guys realize that once something hits the PTS, its very hard to convince ZOS to change it?

PTS is more of a "preview of what you are already going to get" system rather than a test environment. Time after time we give feedback on the PTS only to be ignored because ZOS pushes to live in 2 weeks and that's not enough time to make the real systemic changes we all want

By real changes, i don't mean a bandaid fix like removing crit from proc sets. You can still stack proc sets and 1shot people. Other proc sets are still terrible and out of about 20 proc sets, only 5 or so are really valuable.

Proc sets are really not the worst thing in PvP. Overall damage is out of control due to the champion system, and we still have a stupid burst meta because everyone still have unlimited resources instead of a resource management meta we use to have.

Doctordarkspawn

No

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

When will you "wait till the PTS" guys realize that once something hits the PTS, its very hard to convince ZOS to change it?

PTS is more of a "preview of what you are already going to get" system rather than a test environment. Time after time we give feedback on the PTS only to be ignored because ZOS pushes to live in 2 weeks and that's not enough time to make the real systemic changes we all want

By real changes, i don't mean a bandaid fix like removing crit from proc sets. You can still stack proc sets and 1shot people. Other proc sets are still terrible and out of about 20 proc sets, only 5 or so are really valuable.

Proc sets are really not the worst thing in PvP. Overall damage is out of control due to the champion system, and we still have a stupid burst meta because everyone still have unlimited resources instead of a resource management meta we use to have.

They wont get it. Because acknowledging that usually means they're wrong.

And they can never be wrong.

LrdRahvin

Yes

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I would be fine with no sets at all , just armor with base stat bonuses . All of these things just lead to crafters becoming obsolete and power creep . Just my opinion again .

^ this

starkerealm

Yes

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Nerf it , remove it , whatever . If I never seen another proc suit I would not cry . I think they are all a gear stacking gimmick to remove skill from the game anyways . I would be fine with no sets at all , just armor with base stat bonuses . All of these things just lead to crafters becoming obsolete and power creep . Just my opinion again .

Sets can be interesting. As in really interesting for builds. As examples, here are two set bonuses from games that are not ESO. The Division has a riot shield active ability. Normally you can only use your pistol while you have it active. But, the Frontline set allows you to use an SMG while you have your shield out instead. Grim Dawn has a set that allows you to dual wield pistols (normally this isn't possible).

You know what's interesting? TBS. Stuff like that. A set that let you slot a 1h melee weapon on hand, and a staff off hand, and gave you access sword and board along with the relevant staff skills?

How about a set that, when complete, causes your heavy armor to count as medium armor for passives (excluding ones that require 5 pieces of medium equipped)?

Conceptually, I'm rather fond of Vampire Lord. I don't think there's a real role for it, but the boost to Vampires is kinda cool. Similarly, Salvation is kinda interesting now. Very narrow use, but, hey, it helps werewolves.

Yes but they get out of control in every game . We started with simple stuff like Willow's path and ashen grip and it turned to a landslide of easy mode vipers and velidreth or salene . Then players get use to pushing one button and the armor does all the rest of the work . I just don't like gear being more important then character build .

I'm pretty sure it was already out of hand at launch. Remember the Dragonguard Vampire Sorcs?

But, yeah, the overall system of, you collect a set to make you more powerful and it's a linear upgrade is a huge problem. I'm honestly okay with games where your gear is your build. Hell, I mentioned The Division in the previous post. But, again, I really prefer sets that let you play in different ways rather than ones that simply make you more powerful, or especially ones that randomly trigger and murder everyone around you.

starkerealm

Yes

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

When will you "wait till the PTS" guys realize that once something hits the PTS, its very hard to convince ZOS to change it?

You get that sometimes the answer is no? ZOS wants to kill the proc set meta. Proc builds became the gold standard after one tamriel. It was inevitable that they'd get slapped into the dust. I'm honestly surprised that Proc set bonuses aren't being completely removed and replaced with static modifiers.

You know why? Because proc sets are boring. Boring to play. You jump in and wait for your automated "I WIN!" button to trip. Yeah, that's "fun."

I'm not going to use the, "training wheels," gag at every opportunity. But, the people who learned to get the game to play itself for them have zero sympathy from me. Sorry.

Astanphaeus

Yes

It's not as much of a PvP nerf as I would have liked to have seen since most PvPers that know what they are doing already have decent crit resistance, but at least it is something.

As for PvE, proc sets over-performed there as well, so I'm fine with the PvE nerf.