The grind for the vMA sharpened inferno staff is taking up ALL of my ingame time

Oreyn_Bearclaw · December 2016

raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »

Says the person who has characters who heavily relies on vMA weapons

vMA weapons will not make or break your build.

raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »

Anyhow some of us are competitive trial players who already done or chooses to skip the causal gameplay settings.

You're not one of them (your post history makes this abundantly clear), so why do you speak as if you were?

raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »

ZOS made it so that we must have these weapons to Increase our overall DPS status. Most popular HIGH DPS builds requires vMA sharpen weapons to give out maximum performance.

Most guilds won't even let you toggle along for veteran trials (Especially vMOL) without doing some sort of DPS Test to prove that you're holding your own weight.

That you hold this misconception further reinforces my previous point. There are a lot of good players who, despite never getting the unicorn staff, have competitively completed the hardest content, and there are a lot of players who, despite having the unicorn staff, still struggle.

The loot system is atrocious. Nobody is going to deny that. What I don't understand is why people keep grinding vMA for it if they know that the loot system sucks and if they don't enjoy it. There are people who run vMA hundreds of times because they like it and because they are trying to top the vMA boards, and that's fine. But if the only reason to run it is for the weapon, and you know what the loot system is like, then why run it?

What do you mean that I'm not one of them? You base this off of my previous post? How? So far I've done vSO - HM, vHRC -HM and did vAA.... hopefully I'll do HM soon enough. My name has been on the leaderboard a few times now, and received gold items in my mailbox as a result of my name still sticking by the end of the week.

vMA weapons won't break your build but improve it quite significantly. Why do you think so many people are slaving away endlessness grinding for these weapons? To improve their build and to boost up their DPS..... because you this game is all about how high you can get your DPS during boss fights. Numbers are quite significant in this game. It's like being back in math class again.

ZOS created this problem when they introduce this terrible content in the game.

Quite Significantly is a rather subjective term. A VMA sharp staff will give you approx 2k dps if your rotation is perfect. I finally got one a few weeks ago. Is it more, yes, but 2k on top of 40k is really not all that much. I have been doing speed runs of VMOL HM for months before I got that staff, as has half my raid group. The clouds did not magically part after I got the staff. My best parses on all the fights are actually before I got the staff. In hindsight, not worth the year long grind...

Jaronking · December 2016

Artis wrote: »

Also, RNG is consistent with the lore. Just go to HRC and see for yourself.
"You have come farther than those feeble Undaunted. But you will fall just the same."
So people who have all the undaunted shoulders - multiple bis pieces too, the infinite amount of all possible trait and type combos - wipe on the first trash pack in HRC. Because on the second pack you already "have come farther" than them.

Which shows that RNG and luck, getting loot in MMO is not just about being more skilled or getting carried by a more skilled group. The game itself warns about it. And HRC was released back in 2014.

Are you serious none of that even says anything about RNG.Can you read?I really am asking?Those are NPC not real people.

Artis · December 2016

Jaronking wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Also, RNG is consistent with the lore. Just go to HRC and see for yourself.
"You have come farther than those feeble Undaunted. But you will fall just the same."
So people who have all the undaunted shoulders - multiple bis pieces too, the infinite amount of all possible trait and type combos - wipe on the first trash pack in HRC. Because on the second pack you already "have come farther" than them.

Which shows that RNG and luck, getting loot in MMO is not just about being more skilled or getting carried by a more skilled group. The game itself warns about it. And HRC was released back in 2014.

Are you serious none of that even says anything about RNG.Can you read?I really am asking?Those are NPC not real people.

Of course it does. Somebody was crying that "good" players can't get vma weapons whereas "bad" players can get them on the first run.

Well there you have it, a raid of undaunted can't go past the first wave of trash but has all the shoulders, while other raids that kill warrior have to farm. Lore is on RNG's side.

THere are no real people inside the game. Just characters. Yours is not better than other undaunted. And of course it's all about RNG. RNG was since the game release. It's nothing new and the direction is not new either. Undaunted keys and helms were RNG, master weapons when first added were RNG, etc.

The rules aren't new. But you can keep crying all you want.

And no, I think you are the one who can't read. You still didnt' say anything about possible consequences. Nor about why MMORPG common rules have to be changed just for you and how is better for the game if everyone has the same stuff.

DRXHarbinger · December 2016

Whoever keeps saying "not everyone should have bis slot gear regardless of how many runs they've done" needs to stfu. Just because you've got the awesome shiny *** doesn't mean you get to deny anyone else getting it.

If you didn't have it you'd be crying the exact same tune. It's almost as if it'd make your weapon worse by someone else having it or you'd not be as cool anymore.

JKith · December 2016

"Artis wrote: »

In which universe? I already told you at least 2 consequences we'll have it bis loot is based on tokens. And you aren't offering any arguments. Just whining that the current system is bad. But not suggesting anything that makes it good. If you just change the loot system under current conditions it will make things much worse and everyone will have the same thing in the endgame.

Ahaha hopeless? You are the one hopeless. If you want the results to depend only on skill, go play chess or mobas or shooters. It's an MMO. Is it your first MMO or something? And in MMO things ALWAYS depended on gear and progression. The competition was NEVER just about skill. Name one successful western MMO(you're only choosing from the list with 1 name right now) where it wasn't the case.

Don't tell me that players who are all about competition - and if they are on top then they are likely experienced and it's not their first competition - didn't know how MMOs work. But still went to play this one? And now complaining that thing work the way they always knew they worked? Plllleasee. Then they are the source of their own problem.

And why should everyone be able to run exactly the same gear setup again please? Omg this entitled generation..

Yup,.. hopeless

altemriel · December 2016

Molec wrote: »

The drop rate on this piece is so abysmal that on a regular days gaming I'm running time after time after time after time until the hour becomes utterly unsociable, I go to bed and awake ready for another day only to be faced with the same old BS. This has been the case for over 1 year now and it has totally consumed ESO for me and many others that I know, it's absurd! Was this content supposed to be genuine eCrack? Did the ZOS staff responsible for the arena and it's loot really think forcing people to grind for 100s of hours in a single player instance was appropriate in this MMO? Is RNG "working as intended" when you have people close to 200 runs (90 minute time trial) without the sharp inferno staff? Somebody should be held accountable as collectively there are a lifetimes worth of hours being wasted chasing this damned weapon when peoples valuable time could be invested elsewhere in the game actually having fun!!!

@ZOS_GinaBruno

oh this is really a bug if the counts are right (I don`t know). why was this not fixed long time ago?

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_MattFiror @ZOS_GinaBruno

susmitds · December 2016

Artis wrote: »

JKith wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

So don't run bis. It's not like everyone is supposed to run bis setup, then might as well just not have gear at all? Or hand everything to everyone. Go play on PTS if all you care about is numbers? You probably can get any gear you want there for testing purposes.

You do have reward for completing vMA. The title and 50 achievement points. You aren't supposed to get reward for absolutely every clear. No one is forcing you to do it. That gear was never meant to be farmed. The ideology is - run if it's fun for you, some lucky players will get bis weapons which are supposed to be rare.

Don't start the grind then. Or if you start it - don't complain. You know the odds in advance. If you don't get what you want in 500 runs it's no one's fault but your own.

Sorry, but i'm not following your logic at all... you're just fanning my flames...I don't even see one good point in your post.

-You're saying don't run BiS is a solution? How is that even remotely a solution.....
-Why do you bring up not having gear? Doesn't makes sense.
-Your PTS comment...who said anything about caring only about numbers. And really? go on the PTS is what you're suggesting? You're just trolling me at this point.
-The title and 50 achievement points is barely a reward, it just shows that you completed the content.
-And why can't I complain? again,.. doesn't make sense to me buddy,.. sorry. This is a forum. If you're adamant about not complaining then don't complain that i'm complaining!

Bottom line is: RNG in vMA is unreasonable. I'm voicing my opinion, i'm not the only one who feels this way. If one wishes to get vMA weapons, it's unreasonable. However futile it is, since i'm in the thick of my rage, i'm going to try my best to contribute to a change. If vMA has taught me anthing is to not give up!! haha!

- It's not a solution, it's to show that there's no problem in the first place. Not everyone is supposed to run bis, otherwise it wouldn't be bis and we might as well play an fps or moba.
- yes it does. If everyone runs the same gear, might as well put the zero level there and have no gear at all.
- no, I'm just telling you to decide if you care about numbers or about playing. You are not entitled to both. If it's about numbers you could go to pts where you can use any gear. If it's not - then just play and don't worry about 1 item.
- yes and it's the reward. everything else - is just an opportunity for lucky ones to get some extra. If you don't like the reward - don't run the content. It's not like someone is forcing you.
- I won't complain if you stop complaining.

Bottomline is - you are selfish and don't care about what's good for the game. You just want the gear for yourself and it doesn't bother you that everyone among endgame players will exactly the same gear and build and won't think how to perform well with what they have access to.

RNG is reasonable, because vMA has no cooldowns and you can hypothetically run it multiple times a day. If one wishes to get vMA weapons it's his personal problem. He's not entitled to have them and they are supposed to be rare = someone won't have them. You got the piece of content to play if it's fun for you. If it's not, don't play it.

If one wishes to get ashes of a'lar in wow he's screwed too with very low drop rate and 1-week cooldown. That's the whole point. Rare items are rare. If everyone had them, if they were guaranteed, then they wouldn't be rare and significant.

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

If you want to gamble, go to casino, amirite?

yes, that too.

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

True, and for some players it includes optimizing their characters, trying all possible setups etc. You have no rights to decide what should be fun for them and what shouldnt.

Ok, perfect. So with this rng you can still be in the process of optimizing. So it's a win-win. Otherwise you'd have everything and optimized your character and then what?

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

And its not "equal" chances. It would seem equal if you would assume that a player would do an infinite number of runs, but its not physically possible, not even for nolifers. Besides, nothing in this game require this amount of grind - nothing but weapons, and this is a technical flaw caused by number of possible combos. Here's a more detailed explanation. So, with all those traits (most of which cant be used in any way possible), chances of getting a "good" combination are extremely low. This is not the case for armor - you can trade it in dungeons/trials, craft it or buy it. This is not the case for jewelry (for example, I know some people in a guild that cleared vMoL recently and now everyone in their "main" group has golden jewelry sets). This is only the case for weapons, simply because of the number of possible traits. So why the weapons (and monster shoulders) should require insane grinds?

It is. Everyone has equal chances to loot a certain item on each run. That also means that some people will and some people won't get them. But a-priori the chances are equal. That's how probabilities work. I mean come on, just pick up a textbook.

No, that's a flaw, it's a feature. If you are a magicka dps, you want an inferno staff. If you are a dualwielder - you want 1 handers etc. If you want a certain type and trait of an inferno staff or a 1hander - that is your personal problem. The odds to loot every type of weapons are equal. The odds to loot any trait are equal. In fact, the drop rate of sharpened has to be nerfed according to the data other players collected.

And yes, weapons are more rare than armor pieces. It's okay. Something has to be rare. It used to be jewelry, now it's weapons. So what?

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

No, it says a lot about short-sighted developer's decisions. Games are supposed to be fun, and even on these forums majority of players are unhappy with the current loot system. The problem is here, you cant deny it.
So why do you think its more "fair" to have a system where some random players win and some are essentialy screwed? Implementing a token system would make players truly equal - everyone would be able to get BiS gear eventually. Of course, those lucky people who always drop perfect items on their first try would need to spend a bit more time - but hey, why are they entitled to get everything on the first try?
There are other ways to keep people busy. For example, ZOS added those flower parcels to IC vendor, and that made IC profitable (and alive) once again.

The game is fun. People are playing it and even run vMA. Fun has nothing to do with the loot system.

And why do you think it's fair that in a month or whatever everyone will have bis gear and there will be nothing rare and significant? You want them to increase the CP lvl of gear and restart the whole grind? No thanks.

And of course every sane person is absolutely against having bis gear for tokens. Tokens are to catch up and get some gear that allows you to do the current content. In this game it's not needed. You can craft and buy stuff and be fine and complete everything.

Yes, good point. So they need to add undaunted plunder or something to vMA so it's profittable.

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Its solo content that happens to drop BiS items for group content. Also... If you dont want these weapons/dont care about minmaxing, then why does it even matter for you personally? vMA token system wouldnt be able to affect your gameplay, but it would make a lot of players happy.

Because I care about the game, and having something rare and powerful is good. If I wanted to play a moba, i'd play a moba. Diversity of builds is good. Not everyone is supposed to run the same thing - that would affect my gameplay and make the game boring. Besides, when I get a weapon I want it to be significant and matter something. To know that wow it's awesome that I got something not many people have. And by "I" I meant an abstract player here.

Also, if everyone can easily get it with tokens, it will become new standard and requirement for every group = people will be forced to run vma to get those tokens. It's another consequence I'm against.

SublimeSparo wrote: »

But the trouble is the fact it can be near impossible for some to get their BiS weapons and it puts them at an unfair disadvantage in other parts of the game.
Ie assuming equal skill levels a raid team with BiS vMA weapons will always outperform a team without them, how is that even remotely 'fair'?
It took 1 year of farming, including multiple regular leaderboards and double drops to even get 1 single Sharpened offensive weapon and it was a bow, a backbar weapon. In all that time and a few runs after I have 2 sharpened mauls, 1 bow, 1 resto, From over 1 year grinding, it's ridiculous.

There's no such thing as equal skill. That never happened. And the group setup, buffs/debuffs, skill, combat RNG, ping - the combination of those things outweigh whatever possible benefit of vma weapons you can get.

It's fine, every group is in the same conditions and not everyone runs those weapons. It's good. They are supposed to be rare. zos said it when vdsa was released, that that was the point of master weapons. everyone knew it in advance that they are rare and how rng works. It's weird that now they are surprised they can't reliably farm them - as if it wasn't intended.

What you don't get is that quality of players and their skill should decide rewards not luck. Bad RNG is only defended by those very lucky.

BlackEar · December 2016

Token system, please Zenimax. Almost everyone wants this and it is healthier for the game overall.

jakeedmundson · December 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

What's sad is ZoS once recognized there were only a few traits people gave a crap about and restricted the weapons to these (sharpened, precise, defending). Then ZoS "fixed" the traits, making it so there was only 1 that people care about, and decided to flood the loot table with all the ones nobody wants.

It's one thing for ZoS to hold fast on not giving us a token system, fine, but it is unacceptable they continue to hide the only 4 spefic weapons people give a crap about behind 100s of things it knows are decon trash

Back when there were only 3 traits available, the weapon drop rate was pretty low, too. Back then, instead of complaining about getting a charged resto from the final chest, complaints were about getting a Helm of Glory from the final chest. I'm not sure what the drop rate for a weapon was, but it was definitely below 50%. Let's just call it 1-in-3. That means the chances of getting a sharpened weapon was 1-in-9: 1-in-3 chance of getting any weapon at all, and then another 1-in-3 chance of getting it in the sharp trait. So the chances of getting a sharp weapon from the final chest is still the same as it was before--maybe even a little bit better.

The real problems, if we are to compare how things are now with how things were pre-DB, are the overbuffing of Sharpened and the pollution of the leaderboard rewards.
Pre-DB, Gold sharpened 2H/bow/staff penetrated 14% of the target's resistance. Against a PvE boss with 18.2K resistance, that was 2548 penetration. The new Sharpened trait now grants 5160 flat penetration. The potency of Sharpened was doubled. So instead of two viable DPS traits--Precise and Sharpened--we now just have Sharpened because the overbuff to Sharpened made all other traits irrelevant. @Wrobel's so-called "re-balance" was an absurd misnomer because it wrecked the trait balance, and this was despite multiple PTS threads pointing out the math to him.

The pollution of the final chest loot take didn't make things any worse for the final chest because it was accompanied by a guaranteed weapon drop rate (though it took an extra update--SotH--before that change went into effect), so in the end, the final chest chances are the same. But it ruined the weekly leaderboard rewards because the leaderboards were already guaranteed weapons prior to DB. The leaderboard rewards was the pressure release valve that made the vMA grind bearable for most players: If you were good enough to place multiple characters on the board each week, it was a guaranteed drop drawing from a pool of just 3 traits. Prior to the DB update, I had gotten just one good weapon from the final chests--everything else came from the weeklies. After DB, the weeklies became just as useless as the final chest.

At the very least, in order for us to return to what things used to be (but really, we should want things to be better than what they used to be), ZOS needs to:
Halve the penetration of Sharpened and give Nirnhoned a slight buff. That would give us 3 out of 8 viable DPS traits instead of just 1 out of 8.

Restrict the traits available from the weeklies--weeklies are harder to farm because of the score requirement and because you can get at most one weekly reward per character per week. They should be more rewarding as a result.

@ZOS_RichLambert

I could get on this idea train... but with one addition.

Separate magicka and stamina for leaderboards. The top 100 for sorcerer is all stamina... if i run it on my mag sorc (Less than 55 minutes flawless... i STILL can't hit the leaderboard with 530k (not even last place)

LadyNalcarya · December 2016

Artis wrote: »

It's not wrong. How else will you maintain the rarity in the game where endgame dungeons have no cooldown and at the same time don't make those dungeons too hard for people to complete? Would you prefer vMA and trials to only be accessible once a week like raids in wow?

But they're not that rare. Many people already have these weapons, myself included. Being able to clear vMA isnt rare amonst dedicated players, too.
The problem is, there are people who will never get them, no matter how hard they try.
And you're changing the subject again...

Artis wrote: »

New DLCs and new content won't make the existing content irrelevant, I thought zos made it clear with their actions already. As well as the fact that new content doesn't come out too often.

Yeah but you ARE NOT supposed to grind/farm those weapons. IF you are doing this knowing the rules in advance, then you have no one but yourself to be mad at.

It exists in game = you're supposed to come and get it. Some things are harder to achieve, of course, some are pretty easy, but everything except holiday achievements is accessible for anyone.

Artis wrote: »

Nope, that's the point. The faster people get loot from a certain DLC, the faster they will cancel their sub. So the endless grind is a better solution financially. I don't know why you think that they didn't calculate everything and didn't see that they make more money out of people who don't cancel subs than lose money on crybabies who quit the game (and probably didn't pay all that much anyway). Remember, that it's 20% customers that bring 80% income (or 1% and 99%? something like that).

There should be balance though. According to your logic, there shouldnt be a chance to get weapons on the first try, because that player will "cancel his sub".
Besides, getting these weapons isnt the goal. The goal is to get a perfect build/try different builds/get better leaderboard scores/be more effective in pvp so its not like the game ends when you get vMA weapon.
On the other hand, being screwed by rng can actually make people quit, there's many of them.

Artis wrote: »

You aren't bursting anyone's bubble, you are just ranting and complaining, which looks pathetic. Why? Because he was lucky to find something. It's the fantasy universe. Stuff like that happens all the time. Bilbo found Sting and One Ring due to pure luck. You went to the arena and killed the boss. You took whatever weapon he had today. It could be a precise bow or a defending mace. It doesn't and shouldn't depend on you in any way.

Lol. Just lol. If there's someone who looks pathetic in this thread, thats you. Sorry, but there's nothing in your posts but feels and "specialness". No, your vMA weapon (if you have it), your, I dont know, storm atro mount or whatever rng drop you have doesnt make you special. I dont know what is it, some extreme insecurity or something?
And dont forget that TES equivalent of Stinger and other "legendary" things are daedric artifacts that are unavailable for players.

Artis wrote: »

But the main point here - a person doesn't become more powerful than another person just because of the item. Skill, RNG, ping etc mean way more. Besides, someone can use that slot for 1 more set bonus and make up for the difference if not gain even more. On the other hand, why shouldn't a person with worse skill/ping get any help not to be too bad compared to others, to the point where all good groups won't be happy with his numbers at all.

They do. Especially stamina builds.
For unexperienced player there wont be any difference, but they wouldnt be able to clear vMA anyway.
For good players, there's a noticeable difference.
And if you ever tried to get better scores in any trial, you would know that every second matters.

Artis wrote: »

And yes, that's exactly what it means. Tokens = everyone has it within finite period of time. Lucky people had no advantages.Everyone had the same chances. Someone just found one trait and someone found another one. Just the fact that you say "time to get them" implies that everyone who wants them will get them. And that's exactly what will lead to everyone in end-game having them.

Do you even read the posts in this thread?
Please read Meld777's posts, they explain the situation and I wont waste time on typing the same thing again.

Artis wrote: »

p.s. It's not an assumption, it's a statement of fact.

Then there's nothing to discuss. You have no logical arguments, just your special feels and weird assumptions.
The rest of the post is just "blah blah blah omg so special blah blah blah".

LadyNalcarya · December 2016

Artis wrote: »

Also, RNG is consistent with the lore. Just go to HRC and see for yourself.
"You have come farther than those feeble Undaunted. But you will fall just the same."
So people who have all the undaunted shoulders - multiple bis pieces too, the infinite amount of all possible trait and type combos - wipe on the first trash pack in HRC. Because on the second pack you already "have come farther" than them.

Which shows that RNG and luck, getting loot in MMO is not just about being more skilled or getting carried by a more skilled group. The game itself warns about it. And HRC was released back in 2014.

And I thought your arguments wont get more stupid...
Those Undaunted arent monster shoulders, theyre a group of adventurers who apparently got arrows in their knees and asked your char to help them.

JKith · December 2016

altemriel wrote: »

oh this is really a bug if the counts are right (I don`t know). why was this not fixed long time ago?

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_MattFiror @ZOS_GinaBruno

Exactly,....this is the type of level-headed response any sane and reasonable person would have to the discovery of the abysmal RNG in vMA.

Jimmy · December 2016

I quit the VMA grind after I got the Precise Inferno staff.

Enough was enough. I settled for the precise, but I just couldn't grind anymore.

Artis · December 2016

And many players quit after they get their sharpened weapons. So they have no reason to play that DLC anymore = one fewer reason for them to stay subbed

Meld777 · December 2016

Artis wrote: »

No, you're 95%. 5% get weapons, others don't. You said you didn't get => you are 95%. So it's not everyone except for you. It's 5% and you are among 95%.

I'm not sure why you keep turning these numbers around. In Aquila it's about every 20th player who doesn't have a BiS weapon. Same goes for Hodor, Animals and Well-Fitted. As I mentioned before, those people are known as exceptions. If the weapons were rare, those people who have the weapons would be exceptions. Also, I showed you the overall RNG math why the weapons aren't rare to begin with. From every person running the arena 144 times (realistic amount of runs in 3-month period), over 63% will get their Sharpened Inferno, see my other post.

Artis wrote: »

I do insist however on you showing me the math and proving that they are worse now than they used to be.

It took me around 5 runs to get on the vMA leaderboard for the first time. It's not many people that run it. Those that get their weapon usually stop. I would say the maximum amount of runs a far below-average vMA runner has to complete to have a guaranteed leaderboard spot every run is 10 - 15. In any case, one can assume that one will most likely not have the desired weapon yet when making it to the leaderboard, as the chances (in case of Sharpened Inferno) are:

1/6 (6 categories: Resto, Bow, Destro, 1h, 1h/s, 2h) * 1/3 (3 weapons in the Destro category: Inferno, Frost, Lightning) * 1/8 (8 traits: Sharpened, Precise, Defending, Nirnhoned, Decisive, Charged, Powered, Infused) = 1/144 ~ 0.6%

In the current system, the same chances apply for leaderboard rewards, as in both, chest and leaderboard, a weapon is guaranteed.

Now let's look at the leaderboard rewards before DB:

1/6 (6 categories: Resto, Bow, Destro, 1h, 1h/s, 2h) * 1/3 (3 weapons in the Destro category: Inferno, Frost, Lightning) * 1/3 (3 traits: Sharpened, Precise, Defending) = 1/54 ~ 1.9%

Now, let's look at it again with the assumption that both Sharpened and Precise are usable traits because especially in a raid/competitive setting, like in Aquila 1st group, Precise does indeed outperform Sharpened when no one is slacking on debuffs. Assuming both are good traits, in the current leaderboard reward the chances to get Sharpened or Precise are:

1/6 (6 categories: Resto, Bow, Destro, 1h, 1h/s, 2h) * 1/3 (3 weapons in the Destro category: Inferno, Frost, Lightning) * 2/8 (8 traits: Sharpened, Precise, Defending, Nirnhoned, Decisive, Charged, Powered, Infused) = 1/72 ~ 1.3%

Before DB:

1/6 (6 categories: Resto, Bow, Destro, 1h, 1h/s, 2h) * 1/3 (3 weapons in the Destro category: Inferno, Frost, Lightning) * 2/3 (3 traits: Sharpened, Precise, Defending) = 1/27 ~ 3.7%

Now you might look at 1.3% (Precise or Sharpened Inferno now) and 3.7% (Precise or Sharpened Inferno before DB) and be like, "Well, both chances are abysmal!" Now let's look at what it means for farming/rewards:

Chance to get a Sharpened or Precise Inferno in 100 rewards now: 1-(1-0.013)^100 ~ 72% @Artis not too rare, is it?
Chance to get a Sharpened or Precise Inferno in 100 rewards before DB: 1-(1-0.037)^100 ~ 98%

Chance to get a Sharpened Inferno in 100 rewards: 1-(1-0.006)^100 ~ 45%
Chance to get a Sharpened Inferno in 100 rewards before DB: 1-(1-0.019)^100 ~ 86%

Chance to get a Sharpened Inferno in 500 rewards: 1-(1-0.006)^500 ~ 95% (the other 5% is me, 1 out of 20 will not have their desired destro staff in 500 runs)
Chance to get a Sharpened Inferno in 500 rewards before DB: 1-(1-0.019)^500 ~ 99.994%

If the math was too much for you, just read this conclusion:

Someone placing 5 chars a week on the leaderboard before DB would have a chance of 60% to get his desired weapon within a month, running only 20 times overall. To have the same chance right now, you have to run it 140 times. Of course no one forces you to run it that much. Do the same thing, run it only 20 times a month and put 5 character on the leaderboard each week. Your chance to get a Sharpened Inferno within a month? Lousy 10%. 60% before DB vs 10% now. Big difference, ain't it?
Now, some of you might say you'll never get to the leaderboard as a vMA farmer because... reasons. Well, even in that case the drop rate before DB was better, even with just a 50% chance to get any weapon from the chest. Here is an example for the Sharpened Inferno:

1/2 (weapon drop chance) * 1/6 (6 categories: Resto, Bow, Destro, 1h, 1h/s, 2h) * 1/3 (3 weapons in the Destro category: Inferno, Frost, Lightning) * 1/3 (3 traits: Sharpened, Precise, Defending) = 1/108 ~ 1%, which is still higher than 0.6%.

However, don't underestimate the fact that the weekly pretty much guaranteed you a good weapon! It could only drop in Sharpened, Precise and Defending. And if you, for example, were looking for a 2h for PvP, Defending was also a viable trait. You just had to adjust your CP for equal performance. Running it once a week guaranteed you 1 usable weapon every week. Now this option is gone. You're always getting trash, no matter if you're on the leaderboard or not.

nraner81 · December 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Then stop doing it. You can complete all the content in the game without a sharp vMA fire staff.

The loot system is atrocious. There are too many trash traits and items. And randomness is neither fair nor rewarding. And you know all this first-hand. So why keep throwing yourself at the mercy of this broken system, esp. if you're not enjoying it?

exactly, this is why I shelled out $$ for another game right now(ty amazon!) doom and dest will be here in 2 days.
the nerf for what I grinded was the straw.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/310681/thanks-zos-for-the-year-of-fun#latest

altemriel · December 2016

this kind of RNG sucks pretty much, you should be able to get it in max 20 runs!!!

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober @Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_MattFiror @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Meld777 · December 2016

Artis wrote: »

Good good, now include the rewards from chests.

@Artis I did it here:

Meld777 wrote: »

Now, some of you might say you'll never get to the leaderboard as a vMA farmer because... reasons. Well, even in that case the drop rate before DB was better, even with just a 50% chance to get any weapon from the chest. Here is an example for the Sharpened Inferno:

1/2 (weapon drop chance) * 1/6 (6 categories: Resto, Bow, Destro, 1h, 1h/s, 2h) * 1/3 (3 weapons in the Destro category: Inferno, Frost, Lightning) * 1/3 (3 traits: Sharpened, Precise, Defending) = 1/108 ~ 1%, which is still higher than 0.6%.

While I know that many complained about the 50% weapon chance not being 50%, I doubt that it was wrong, since it was officially confirmed by Mike Finnigan. I heard of people not getting a weapon drop for 20 runs straight (there's a thread of a guy somewhere with 28 non-weapon drops until his first weapon dropped) and others getting 20 weapons in a row. That's RNG. I had 6 Charged Restos in a row before... and then a bunch of other Charged and Infused crap after. Same thing.

But since you want to see some further math on chests, and only chests, no leaderboard, here you go:

Chance to get a Sharpened Inferno in 100 chests now: 1-(1-0.006)^100 ~ 45%
Chance to get a Sharpened Inferno in 100 chests before DB: 1-(1-0.01)^100 ~ 64%

Chance to get a Sharpened Inferno in 200 chests now: 1-(1-0.006)^200 ~ 69%
Chance to get a Sharpened Inferno in 200 chests before DB: 1-(1-0.01)^200 ~ 87%

Chance to get a Sharpened Inferno in 500 chests now: 1-(1-0.006)^500 ~ 95% (as before, 5% = 1 out of 20 will NOT get it)
Chance to get a Sharpened Inferno in 500 chests before DB: 1-(1-0.01)^500 ~ 99.4 % chance ("more than 99 out of 100 will have it" -> let's scale it: 6 out of 1000 people won't have it; that's you @Decado

)

[Deleted User] · December 2016

Hello everyone,

This post is to let you know that we've gone ahead and removed several comments, for an argument that become more heated than it should have. We understand people will have different stances on this subject, but we have to ask that you remain civil while discussing your opinion. Keep in mind that flaming and baiting are both against the Forum Rules. For further discussion, please be sure to stay respectful towards your fellow community members to avoid a closure of this thread or action on one's account.

Thank you for understanding.

Artis · December 2016

Meld777 wrote: »

@Artis I did it here:

My bad, it's hard to see, the format isnt' very good for math on these forums. Ok then, the drop rate of a certain item decreased about 2 times, which your math demonstrated. However the drop to get An item increased. Which is fine. I still don't see why everyone is supposed to have 1 certain item. You do get something you can use almost every time now, you just choose not to use it.

I mean, it's an MMO and you knew the rules in advance. Maybe they should remove leaderboards to stop your complains and people will run sites like wowprogress to track the first kill etc which are done in setups far from bis. And you won't feel that grinding something will improve your result, because it won't if someone completes faster than you.

Idk, that seems like a solution to this problem.

Meld777 wrote: »

Chance to get a Sharpened Inferno in 100 chests now: 1-(1-0.006)^100 ~ 45%
Chance to get a Sharpened Inferno in 100 chests before DB: 1-(1-0.01)^100 ~ 64%

Chance to get a Sharpened Inferno in 200 chests now: 1-(1-0.006)^200 ~ 69%
Chance to get a Sharpened Inferno in 200 chests before DB: 1-(1-0.01)^200 ~ 87%

Chance to get a Sharpened Inferno in 500 chests now: 1-(1-0.006)^500 ~ 95% (as before, 5% = 1 out of 20 will NOT get it)
Chance to get a Sharpened Inferno in 500 chests before DB: 1-(1-0.01)^500 ~ 99.4 % chance ("more than 99 out of 100 will have it" -> let's scale it: 6 out of 1000 people won't have it; that's you @Decado )

As you can see the progression looks good, so keep running it. The curve is steeper now, so running more times looks better than it used to be

The thing is, that whining on forums takes time , time people could use to clear vma and get their weapons.

Artis · December 2016

Meld777 wrote: »

If the math was too much for you, just read this conclusion:

Someone placing 5 chars a week on the leaderboard before DB would have a chance of 60% to get his desired weapon within a month, running only 20 times overall. To have the same chance right now, you have to run it 140 times. Of course no one forces you to run it that much. Do the same thing, run it only 20 times a month and put 5 character on the leaderboard each week. Your chance to get a Sharpened Inferno within a month? Lousy 10%. 60% before DB vs 10% now. Big difference, ain't it?
Now, some of you might say you'll never get to the leaderboard as a vMA farmer because... reasons. Well, even in that case the drop rate before DB was better, even with just a 50% chance to get any weapon from the chest. Here is an example for the Sharpened Inferno:

1/2 (weapon drop chance) * 1/6 (6 categories: Resto, Bow, Destro, 1h, 1h/s, 2h) * 1/3 (3 weapons in the Destro category: Inferno, Frost, Lightning) * 1/3 (3 traits: Sharpened, Precise, Defending) = 1/108 ~ 1%, which is still higher than 0.6%.

However, don't underestimate the fact that the weekly pretty much guaranteed you a good weapon! It could only drop in Sharpened, Precise and Defending. And if you, for example, were looking for a 2h for PvP, Defending was also a viable trait. You just had to adjust your CP for equal performance. Running it once a week guaranteed you 1 usable weapon every week. Now this option is gone. You're always getting trash, no matter if you're on the leaderboard or not.

Did you just assume my major?

Yes, so what they should do is remove useless traits from the weeklies. Or rather make people choose from a few pools of traits, kinda like undaunted chests. But tokens are a no no. And the option is not gone. You can still use those weapons. Adjust cp to get more spell pen or something. Maybe you'll be a bit behind what you could be. But you just choose to call those weapons useless and not run them.

altemriel wrote: »

this kind of RNG sucks pretty much, you should be able to get it in max 20 runs!!!

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober @Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_MattFiror @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Or better - in 5 runs! It also should drop from every chest! No, 2 of them from every chest, because no one needs other gear anyway. And 2 is greater than 1, so it will make getting them easier. Also add a chance to get weapons when you collect ore, wood or flowers.

In fact, they should be added to the pvp vendor or even better - mailed to every character.

Decado · December 2016

I put enough time into That stupid arena I will never step foot back in that place anyone who tells me to well get told straight to F**K off

And @Artis do you not think maybe people have already put in the time in the arena BEFORE they came on to the forums to complain? It's not like people ran it once and then immediately came here to complain most people I know have a legitimate right to come here and complain about how the RNG has treated them? Please don't assume people don't have the weapons due to a lack of trying some people have honest to God just been totally screwed over and no longer want to spend there time in a MMO doing a SOLO instance anymore

Oh and @Meld777 try no To take to much enjoyment about pointing me out won't you haha

Artis · December 2016

Decado wrote: »

I put enough time into That stupid arena I will never step foot back in that place anyone who tells me to well get told straight to F**K off

And @Artis do you not think maybe people have already put in the time in the arena BEFORE they came on to the forums to complain? It's not like people ran it once and then immediately came here to complain most people I know have a legitimate right to come here and complain about how the RNG has treated them? Please don't assume people don't have the weapons due to a lack of trying some people have honest to God just been totally screwed over and no longer want to spend there time in a MMO doing a SOLO instance anymore

Oh and @Meld777 try no To take to much enjoyment about pointing me out won't you haha

No, I don't think they should expect to get a certain item. It was never guaranteed and they new it was supposed to be rare well before they started farming it. When I was farming some weapon somewhere I didn't complain, I just farmed.

I don't assume people don't have them due to a lack of trying. They don't have them due to the lack of luck.

And there you go, you got it right. If it's not fun - don't do it.

MakoFore · December 2016

i love how ZoS comes in here to address behaviour between players- but dosent address what the actual arguments are ABOUT.

rather than deleting messages on forums- somebody takes these messages upstairs- it clearly is upsetting a large portion of players. people are either pissed, indifferent or indignant- in any case- something should be done.

I enjoy playing pvp, pve and doing dungeons and trials with my guild- but i would say that 80 percent of my time in game is grinding for overland sets for builds for my 7 players- and in maelstrom grinding for that 2hand sharp greatsword- again important for my builds. of course i can do with out it as people have said- but in true flame? when your going up against some of the dudes in there? u want as much as u can. u need it in fact. but again- most of my time is doing maelstrom , antisocially again and again . i do it twice a day- and have done so for the past month. so far my drop rate has been predictably abysmal like everyone else. the thing is- i enjoy maelsrtom- i like doing it as a test to my builds and skills- but to make it so grindy for weapons kills the joy for me. if i had maelstrom weapons i would still do it once a week with all my toons- and enjoy it- rather than what it is now- a chore.

LadyNalcarya · December 2016

Artis wrote: »

Decado wrote: »

I put enough time into That stupid arena I will never step foot back in that place anyone who tells me to well get told straight to F**K off

And @Artis do you not think maybe people have already put in the time in the arena BEFORE they came on to the forums to complain? It's not like people ran it once and then immediately came here to complain most people I know have a legitimate right to come here and complain about how the RNG has treated them? Please don't assume people don't have the weapons due to a lack of trying some people have honest to God just been totally screwed over and no longer want to spend there time in a MMO doing a SOLO instance anymore

Oh and @Meld777 try no To take to much enjoyment about pointing me out won't you haha

No, I don't think they should expect to get a certain item. It was never guaranteed and they new it was supposed to be rare well before they started farming it.

Its just your fantasies.
If its not, link any developers post where they say that only some farmers are supposed to get the weapons.
Yes, the instance isnt for everyone, but "not everyone is supposed to finish it (due to difficulty)" and "not every one who is capable of farming it should get the rewards" are fundamentally different things. But since you cant tell the difference between gear drops and a npc faction, I doubt you'll understand this.

When I was farming some weapon somewhere I didn't complain, I just farmed.

I don't assume people don't have them due to a lack of trying. They don't have them due to the lack of luck.

And there you go, you got it right. If it's not fun - don't do it.

I understand you're either a troll or an extremely arrogant and self-centered kind of person, but either way I honestly wish you only training and prosperous drops in every instance you'll ever attempt to farm.

You're not an entitled person anyway, right?

Artis · December 2016

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

If its not, link any developers post where they say that only some farmers are supposed to get the weapons.
Yes, the instance isnt for everyone, but "not everyone is supposed to finish it (due to difficulty)" and "not every one who is capable of farming it should get the rewards" are fundamentally different things. But since you cant tell the difference between gear drops and a npc faction, I doubt you'll understand this.

No, I'm not gonna bother looking for it if you arent' addressing everything. Feel free to google itself. Back in 2014 when the Dragonstar Arena was released one of them said it. No there's no such thing as gear drops in Tamriel or NPC factions. You go to a dungeon and kill enemies. And get the stuff they had. If you're lucky, they had something good.

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

I understand you're either a troll or an extremely arrogant and self-centered kind of person, but either way I honestly wish you only training and prosperous drops in every instance you'll ever attempt to farm. You're not an entitled person anyway, right?

That's right, I must be a problem. Yeah, I don't care about my drops. I'll get what I need at some point just like everyone else.

You keep trying to kill the game's economy. It's like you refuse to see the bigger picture, a crybaby just wants to have everything. This entitled generation of kids makes me facepalm.

Blackfyre20 · December 2016

Artis wrote: »

That's right, I must be a problem. Yeah, I don't care about my drops. I'll get what I need at some point just like everyone else.

You keep trying to kill the game's economy. It's like you refuse to see the bigger picture, a crybaby just wants to have everything. This entitled generation of kids makes me facepalm.

You're really just a troll and probably not worth it but I'd like to point out that a token system for vMA/vDSA would pretty much have zero impact on the game's economy. You show little to no understanding of the game's economy so please don't accuse anyone of trying to kill it. And ah yes this darn generation of kids who think that working at something and putting in effort to accomplish a task should be rewarded rather than dumb luck, what a buncha entitled brats.

Cozzy1991 · December 2016

Zos are a group of window licking muppets lead by grand tongue scrubber wrobel.

DRXHarbinger · December 2016

Artis wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

And many players quit after they get their sharpened weapons. So they have no reason to play that DLC anymore = one fewer reason for them to stay subbed

please prove this because you can't your lying through your teeth.Thank you for showing all of us that your just a lying to try and justify your opinion and shouldn't be listened to good bye.

I don't need to. You and other whiners proved it multiple times already, making it obvious that you run vma to get loot. ZOS sees it, and it's obvious for them that a lot of players would quit it after they get weapons. Heck, they already see that people who got their weapons quit vma. I won't bother going anywhere deeper if you won't address everything and will just quote a couple of lines out of context.

Also, when you accuse someone of being an idiot or a liar, you have to provide some proof to that yourself. Other than that, looking at your manner of speech and your punctuation, I'd recommend zos to request the proof that you are 18+ and are allowed to play this game at all.

You are a fool so just give it a rest. No one quits the dlc or eso plus once they get the weapons, how many people do you see have done that,

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

That's right, I must be a problem. Yeah, I don't care about my drops. I'll get what I need at some point just like everyone else.

You keep trying to kill the game's economy. It's like you refuse to see the bigger picture, a crybaby just wants to have everything. This entitled generation of kids makes me facepalm.

You're really just a troll and probably not worth it but I'd like to point out that a token system for vMA/vDSA would pretty much have zero impact on the game's economy. You show little to no understanding of the game's economy so please don't accuse anyone of trying to kill it. And ah yes this darn generation of kids who think that working at something and putting in effort to accomplish a task should be rewarded rather than dumb luck, what a buncha entitled brats.

500 runs for one guy...drops no staff...2 runs for another and lands it...who's more entitled to one? The 500 run guy who smashes it in 40 mins or the noob that took 4hrs when it launched...

Tokens...10 runs and land whatever you please...whose more entitled to it? No one..only those that can complete it and not badger friends to running it 10x for them.

Impact on game economy or longevity.. it'd still take 100 runs minimum to get a full arsenal to kit out your whole 8 squad members...a grind yes but you can see the end being in sight.

The other guy dropping in out with trolls etc, usefulness here? 0 or -97?

Artis · December 2016

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

That's right, I must be a problem. Yeah, I don't care about my drops. I'll get what I need at some point just like everyone else.

You keep trying to kill the game's economy. It's like you refuse to see the bigger picture, a crybaby just wants to have everything. This entitled generation of kids makes me facepalm.

You're really just a troll and probably not worth it but I'd like to point out that a token system for vMA/vDSA would pretty much have zero impact on the game's economy. You show little to no understanding of the game's economy so please don't accuse anyone of trying to kill it. And ah yes this darn generation of kids who think that working at something and putting in effort to accomplish a task should be rewarded rather than dumb luck, what a buncha entitled brats.

Of course it would impact the economy. Weps would be guaranteed = people would quit running vma sooner = demand on potions decreases, etc.

No, I'm not a troll and understand more than you think, if you think that is. Exactly, they think putting an effort gives them a result. No, that's not how it works. Awww you tried, here's a participation trophy for you.

No, the problem is, that they know the rules, but they will cry and whine if they can't win following the rules. because the rules have to be changed so that they could win. Because they are so special and if they can't win, then the rules are bad.

Get over it. You aren't entitled to weapons just because you ran arena N times. It's a fantasy world, not your job. There are millions of others like you, and the point is not to give them all weapons. Then why not just mail them?

But yeah, keep on going, your echo chamber will support you. YOu can't get the item you want? Must be something wrong with the rules you knew in advance, they have to change. Who cares that there should be some rare gear? No, you want it now and deserve it, cause you're so special. Somebody sees deeper than you and disagrees with you? No, must be a troll, there's no chance he's smarter or more educated than you. It just can't be.