One major problem with Heavy Armor

Yiko

Sharee wrote: »

I did not see any evaluation of stamina in that test tho. The cost reduction of medium for example alone is enough to compensate for what heavy armor gives, the add regen bonuses. Then add situational factors, like "what if i am not continually attacked". Then what about cost reduction of roll dodge. The issue is a lot more complicated than just "heavy is better cuz they get utility because they get more magicka back". Things like redguard racial - that thing is twice as good at returning stamina than BR 5-piece bonus, for example. All this combined make stamina a lot less of an issue for the heavy user than it should be, but that's a factor from outside of heavy armor itself.

Right, the goal was to analyze it, but like I said, I'm too lazy/tired to go through everything.. I gave the numbers for comparison. I already know which is better.

Half of the medium armor passives are for regen/cost reduction, and Redguard+BR+Constitution(781 stam and mag regen)+CP is plenty sustain for heavy, so it balances out. Ultimately I'm missing ~8% crit & 12% weapon damage, but that 12% weapon damage is not an issue, because with medium armor, I either have to use a magicka drink or have to swap my jewelry glyphs to build for magicka regen (therefore forfeiting mass amounts of stamina (5000+) or weapon damage (~525). I gain damage by going heavy armor, without including the Wrath passive. I gain around 2.4k health, more self-healing, and 4k more resistances. I lose reduce sneak cost and 3% move speed while sprinting.

Am I missing anything? This is what you were supposed to infer from the screenshots & tooltips I provided.

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

I think the reason heavy armour appears to be over performing in some aspects of PvP is due to the overall damage creep.

If someone in heavy armor has the ability to burst down a player in a matter of seconds, then what is the point in wearing light or medium? They don't need as much sustain due to the fight being over so fast, and have greater suitability through resistances.

If the damage output in pvp was lower, you would benefit more from squeezing the extra potential damage from medium, and you wouldn't get insta-gibbed for choosing medium over heavy. The longer fights would benefit the cost reduction of medium more.

Solution is to nerf burst potential from proc sets and find a way to offset the constant damage creep which occurs each patch. (current battle spirit buffs are a poor attempt to balance the power creep) Imo, these are the main causes of the heavy armor outcry in the PvP community.

Definitely a good way to put it. I don't even know where they'd begin dealing with power creep, though. I just hate this heavy armor & proc meta. Procs and passive defenses diminish gameplay quality.

frozywozy

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Solution is to nerf burst potential from proc sets and find a way to offset the constant damage creep which occurs each patch. (current battle spirit buffs are a poor attempt to balance the power creep) Imo, these are the main causes of the heavy armor outcry in the PvP community.

There we go! someone gets it. And Black Rose. Kappa

Valencer

Black Rose really isnt that big of a deal... it's quite comparable to any other set

Everyone's using it because it's easy and cheap to get (in impen, no less) and gives a well-rounded package of bonuses that complements a lot of builds well.

Integral1900

Come join me and me fellow pve care bears, then you'll never have to worry about it

Erock25

Heavy is fine. Black Rose is fine. Proc sets are not fine. Stam/magicka balance is not fine.

You can't get killed by some heavy user with veli/tremor and shout that heavy armor must be nerfed.

Sharee

Yiko wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

I did not see any evaluation of stamina in that test tho. The cost reduction of medium for example alone is enough to compensate for what heavy armor gives, the add regen bonuses. Then add situational factors, like "what if i am not continually attacked". Then what about cost reduction of roll dodge. The issue is a lot more complicated than just "heavy is better cuz they get utility because they get more magicka back". Things like redguard racial - that thing is twice as good at returning stamina than BR 5-piece bonus, for example. All this combined make stamina a lot less of an issue for the heavy user than it should be, but that's a factor from outside of heavy armor itself.

Right, the goal was to analyze it, but like I said, I'm too lazy/tired to go through everything.. I gave the numbers for comparison. I already know which is better. Half of the medium armor passives are for regen/cost reduction, and Imperial+BR+Constitution+CP is plenty sustain for heavy, so it's a nonissue. Ultimately I'm missing ~8% crit & 12% weapon damage, but that 12% weapon damage is not an issue, because with medium armor, I either have to use a magicka drink or have to swap my jewelry glyphs to build for magicka regen (therefore forfeiting mass amounts of stamina (5000+) or weapon damage (~525). I gain damage by going heavy armor, without including the Wrath passive. I gain around 2.4k health, more self-healing, and 4k more resistances. I lose reduce sneak cost and 3% move speed while moving. Am I missing anything? This is what you were supposed to infer from the screenshots & tooltips I provided.

If you build your analysis of heavy armor on the premise that "stamina is a nonissue", then of course heavy will appear way better to you than medium. If stamina sustain is a nonissue, and medium improves stamina sustain, then naturally you must arrive at the conclusion that medium is useless.

But its not a nonissue. It only becomes a nonissue when you count in factors that have nothing to do with heavy armor, like redguard passive (which gives 2x more(!) stamina to a 40k stam user than the supposedly-overpowered BR 5-piece bonus), or the unchained passive. Another very important factor is the one mentioned by Stalker above - who needs regen when you can kill people in 1 GCD? Again, the damage-proccing sets are at fault here, not HA.

Black rose alone gives 911 regen at best(and only if hit), that's far from enough to sustain through a fight that's longer than your typical gank - not if you dedicate all your jewelry to damage enchants. Without the other stamina factors mentioned above, a heavy armor user has to sacrifice damage to sustain, either by using nondamage jewelry, or though dedicating some GCD's to heavy attacks to get stamina back. Stam sorcs and to some degree DK's have an edge here, thanks to the ability to transfer resources from the magicka pool to the stamina pool, but that's class abilities, not heavy armor per se.

frozywozy

Erock25 wrote: »

Heavy is fine. Black Rose is fine. Proc sets are not fine. Stam/magicka balance is not fine.

You can't get killed by some heavy user with veli/tremor and shout that heavy armor must be nerfed.

As it's been prouven and explained in details in this thread by some experts in theorycrafting that you probably skipped and went to reply right away, black rose gives way too much sustain and damage output compared to any medium armor builds. It needs to be addressed to give medium armor a reason to be used.

Magus

frozywozy wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Heavy is fine. Black Rose is fine. Proc sets are not fine. Stam/magicka balance is not fine.

You can't get killed by some heavy user with veli/tremor and shout that heavy armor must be nerfed.

As it's been prouven and explained in details in this thread by some experts in theorycrafting that you probably skipped and went to reply right away, black rose gives way too much sustain and damage output compared to any medium armor builds. It needs to be addressed to give medium armor a reason to be used.

There's a reason people don't use heavy eternal hunt builds. Medium damage mitigation is roll dodge and shuffle for snare immunity. It's just that radiant, soul assault, etc go through roll dodge now. That made people move to heavy armor where blocking and taking more hits was the mitigation. Light armor mitigation is damage shields. Light armor shield stackers and heavy armor are the tankiest. Medium armor nightblades still have the most burst. Heavy armor alone doesn't give you great sustain, BR in 7 heavy is a noticeable sustain difference from other heavy sets but it's not game breaking. It's really people using abilities to convert magicka to stamina that gives the sustain. DK and sorc are best at this. NB needs siphoning attacks and templar relies on repentance. Go run BR in 5 or 7 heavy on a stamplar without having anything to repentance and tell me how the sustain is lol. Bonus points, go run 5 heavy BR on a non-redguard stamplar.

Yiko

Sharee wrote: »

If you build your analysis of heavy armor on the premise that "stamina is a nonissue", then of course heavy will appear way better to you than medium. If stamina sustain is a nonissue, and medium improves stamina sustain, then naturally you must arrive at the conclusion that medium is useless.

But its not a nonissue. It only becomes a nonissue when you count in factors that have nothing to do with heavy armor, like redguard passive (which gives 2x more(!) stamina to a 40k stam user than the supposedly-overpowered BR 5-piece bonus), or the unchained passive. Another very important factor is the one mentioned by Stalker above - who needs regen when you can kill people in 1 GCD? Again, the damage-proccing sets are at fault here, not HA.

Black rose alone gives 911 regen at best(and only if hit), that's far from enough to sustain through a fight that's longer than your typical gank - not if you dedicate all your jewelry to damage enchants. Without the other stamina factors mentioned above, a heavy armor user has to sacrifice damage to sustain, either by using nondamage jewelry, or though dedicating some GCD's to heavy attacks to get stamina back. Stam sorcs and to some degree DK's have an edge here, thanks to the ability to transfer resources from the magicka pool to the stamina pool, but that's class abilities, not heavy armor per se.

Procs, Redguard passive, damage stacking, and utility magicka..

Do you know what all of these have in common? Stats. Do you know what I've been saying? Heavy armor gives the most stat value, freeing the user to build however they want, generally opting for straight damage.

I'm not building my analysis on "stamina as a nonissue." Nonissue was probably a poor word choice. I didn't mean that it wasn't significant. Rather, I meant that both sides more or less canceled each other out. Once you have a certain amount of stam regen available to your build, any excess is unnecessary. It just happens to be very easy to reach that point.

Now you're starting to understand that trade-off of medium armor to heavy armor. By using certain abilities and passives (Redguard, Unchained CP, Dark Deal, Repentance, Siphoning Strikes, etc) stamina heavy armor users can neglect building for both kinds of regen, fully abusing the stat value that heavy armor provides. If you want to use serpent mundus or stamina regen jewelry glyphs, be my guest. You still have the most stat value.

Joy_Division

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

I posted this in another thread, but I thought I'd repost it for visibility. I want to hear people's thoughts on it.


Blackrose DOES give users too many stats and resources, but another huge part of the problem IMO is the Constitution passive itself. With Black Rose it can give up to around 1.8-1.9k stam/magicka back every 4 seconds, and around 1300-1400 w/o it IIRC. That's around 900 stam and magicka regen in utility, provided you're in combat and constantly being hit. That's about DOUBLE what a typical stam character's default magicka regen is at. I don't know how much this has been touched on, but I think the magicka utility that heavy armor provides for stam users has lead to complete overperformance. The gameplay is incredibly forgiving courtesy of the inherent tankiness and utility of heavy armor. For example, look at the following class skills that are spammable due to the magicka sustain that BR and heavy armor in general provide:
- Templars are able to use Restoring Focus & Extended Ritual (purge) more freely, both providing Major Mending.
- Sorcerers are able to streak and use Dark Deal (HUGE resource return) very often
- Dragonknights aren't quite as popular these days, but they're able to use Igneous Shield constantly to keep up Major Mending & return stam
- Nightblades are able to use Dark Cloak (invisibility + damage reduction) + Mass Hysteria (AOE CC)

Magicka abilities offer incredibly powerful sustainability on the already tanky Heavy Armor builds. Due to that magicka sustain, Heavy Armor stamina users can completely bypass the use of drinks & can neglect to build for any magicka recovery. What does that mean? Pure emphasis on damage.
These builds have unholy levels of damage due to weapon damage stacking & the use of proc sets (such as Viper, Velidreth, and Tremorscale, another problem in their own right). Because BR & Heavy armor provide huge levels of sustain (almost double the regen that a stam/magicka drink provides or default magicka regen), high levels of mitigation (increased armor), and increased healing (due to passives) among other benefits such as reduced block costs, Heavy Armor users simply build for damage.

Where's the tradeoff for using Heavy Armor? Medium Armor builds need to run food in order to not be completely obliterated by these Heavy Armor builds and therefore forfeit magicka sustain unless intentionally building for it (but will have to sacrifice stats for it).

A 20k health 30k stam medium armor build who runs drink for magicka sustain will wind up with effectively ~+500 mag regen & a bit more stam regen.
That same 20k health and 30k stam build that runs food on heavy armor will wind up with ~ +800 mag/stam regen and THEN gain ~5k health & stam from the food +10-14% more total health because of heavy armor passives + possibly more % to all stats due to undaunted passives. That's at LEAST 11,000 value in raw stam/health stats alone while keeping up in regen & sustainability.
Medium armor passives do not even remotely compare to heavy armor.

Heavy Armor is the pinnacle of stat value, and Black Rose exacerbates that issue. Constitution passive should give EITHER stamina or magicka based on whichever stat is higher, or if that isn't found to be a generally appropriate change, it at least needs to undergo some kind of rework.

So I'll start replying to your post by saying that in my opinion, the best way to figure out if something is over performing or not is to test it out in duels with combat log opened and a friendly opponent who is open to try stuff out. I have been dueling alot since the patch got released. Prolly got over 300 fights already. I have been fighting the meta cancer builds in heavy armor using proc sets and I have a pretty good idea of what they can achieve.

This being said, you state that someone in heavy doesn't need to run drinks because of the sustain they get. I'm sorry but you must be confused between someone running black rose and someone running heavy in general. black rose broken, heavy is not. I am running 6heavy -1medium at the moment and my magicka recovery is sitting at 1.8k. I got 80points in arcanist, 2 magicka recovery enchants yellow and I use max health / magicka recovery drinks. On top of that I've got 2.4k crit resist, 30k physical resist and undeath passive from vampire.

When I fight against a viper/tremor s&b animation clipping build, moving around and trying to survive as best as I can, they can still deal a constant 25-30k dps and drain my ressources in less than 30 seconds if played properly.

The problem is Black Rose and all damage proc sets, not heavy armor. Nerf Heavy armor and you condemn the remaining chances that magplars and magdks have in small scale openworld pvp.

His whole comment was towards stamina heavy builds fyi. The magicka utility every stamina class has is very strong. The fact black rose and 7 heavy means you have enough magicka to neglect it completly compared to medium builds is the issue he was trying to get across.

I agree wih him. I have to sacrifice a lot of max hp and stamina to have decent magicka recovery in a medium build. If magicka recovery, maximum stamina drinks/foods existed maybe medium would be at a fair playing field compared to heavy.

He sumed it up pretty well. Im not gunna repeat what he said.

It would be of great help in actually having a discussion regarding heavy armor is people for more specific in what circumstances it is overperforming.

The FYI is rather important and I think Frozn's rejoinder is on target and correct.

As a magicka player, while I have found heavy armor decent for staying alive, it by no means the all in one OP package that stam builds can get from it (especially if the set they are wearing is Black Rose). Those DKs who run around in their heavy armor are generally nil offensive threats and the reactive/Malabeth templar that everyone just loves is more or less a cockroach rather than something genuinely lethal.

The only magicka proc set worth a crap is Skoria, and that by itself isn't going to kill anything. Magicka players cant rely on procs to get damage like stam can so it's hard to make a "tank" build in heavy armor and still kill players. Or at least it isn't easy enough that I have witnessed it very often. Most heavy armor magicka DKs and Temps I see are very good at taking punishment, not so much at actually dishing it out. Maybe Rattlcage DKs will make me change my mind, but that's something I will have to see before believing it to be OP as opposed to a strong build.

If we just listen to the general complaints that heavy armor is OP and ZoS applies a blanket nerf - because that's what they do because players on these forums are generally too damn lazy to take an extra sentence to communicate accurate feedback - then we will be right back to where we were for two years: heavy armor being a sub-optimal choice.

Yiko

Joy_Division wrote: »

If we just listen to the general complaints that heavy armor is OP and ZoS applies a blanket nerf - because that's what they do because players on these forums are generally too damn lazy to take an extra sentence to communicate accurate feedback - then we will be right back to where we were for two years: heavy armor being a sub-optimal choice.

Yeah, several times in this thread I have made it explicitly clear that I do not want tanks/magicka builds to be affected by stamina heavy armor user tuning. I just want a discussion on how best to do it, but I can't really even get people to acknowledge that HA/BR is a problem for stamina builds lol. It's baffling

Dreyloch

Soooo....
Another Nerf Black Rose/Constitution thread...gotcha.

Magus

Yiko wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

If we just listen to the general complaints that heavy armohttp://www.polyvore.com/cgi/img-thing?.out=jpg&size=l&tid=38105318r is OP and ZoS applies a blanket nerf - because that's what they do because players on these forums are generally too damn lazy to take an extra sentence to communicate accurate feedback - then we will be right back to where we were for two years: heavy armor being a sub-optimal choice.

Yeah, several times in this thread I have made it explicitly clear that I do not want tanks/magicka builds to be affected by stamina heavy armor user tuning. I just want a discussion on how best to do it, but I can't really even get people to acknowledge that HA/BR is a problem for stamina builds lol. It's baffling

Remove constitution passive, return bracing passive, and restore stamina regen while blocking? Nah just kidding. It's mostly just there is some synergy for very specific builds but it's not out of control in any meaningful situation.

Satiar

Yiko wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

If we just listen to the general complaints that heavy armor is OP and ZoS applies a blanket nerf - because that's what they do because players on these forums are generally too damn lazy to take an extra sentence to communicate accurate feedback - then we will be right back to where we were for two years: heavy armor being a sub-optimal choice.

Yeah, several times in this thread I have made it explicitly clear that I do not want tanks/magicka builds to be affected by stamina heavy armor user tuning. I just want a discussion on how best to do it, but I can't really even get people to acknowledge that HA/BR is a problem for stamina builds lol. It's baffling

I guess we agree that stamina builds are overtuned but I'm not sure it's HA.

I've found as a Magica build my kills are mostly the same as always: pressure, then carefully timed stuns and bursts with my ult. Stam users literally just burst over and over until you die, bevaus even their heavy attack Regen phase is proccing two proc sets AND a poison.

Yiko

Satiar wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

If we just listen to the general complaints that heavy armor is OP and ZoS applies a blanket nerf - because that's what they do because players on these forums are generally too damn lazy to take an extra sentence to communicate accurate feedback - then we will be right back to where we were for two years: heavy armor being a sub-optimal choice.

Yeah, several times in this thread I have made it explicitly clear that I do not want tanks/magicka builds to be affected by stamina heavy armor user tuning. I just want a discussion on how best to do it, but I can't really even get people to acknowledge that HA/BR is a problem for stamina builds lol. It's baffling

I guess we agree that stamina builds are overtuned but I'm not sure it's HA.

I've found as a Magica build my kills are mostly the same as always: pressure, then carefully timed stuns and bursts with my ult. Stam users literally just burst over and over until you die, bevaus even their heavy attack Regen phase is proccing two proc sets AND a poison.

Look at post #34. Heavy is generally better for damage-oriented stamina builds than medium armor in small scale PVP. I don't see many people complaining about medium armor. I'm not so sure a balanced medium armor build needs nerfing alongside heavy armor. I certainly don't think anyone wants medium armor buffed to be brought up to heavy armor's level in terms of total stat value.

Edit: Pretty sure I just want soft caps back

Magus

Yiko wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

If we just listen to the general complaints that heavy armor is OP and ZoS applies a blanket nerf - because that's what they do because players on these forums are generally too damn lazy to take an extra sentence to communicate accurate feedback - then we will be right back to where we were for two years: heavy armor being a sub-optimal choice.

Yeah, several times in this thread I have made it explicitly clear that I do not want tanks/magicka builds to be affected by stamina heavy armor user tuning. I just want a discussion on how best to do it, but I can't really even get people to acknowledge that HA/BR is a problem for stamina builds lol. It's baffling

I guess we agree that stamina builds are overtuned but I'm not sure it's HA.

I've found as a Magica build my kills are mostly the same as always: pressure, then carefully timed stuns and bursts with my ult. Stam users literally just burst over and over until you die, bevaus even their heavy attack Regen phase is proccing two proc sets AND a poison.

Look at post #34. Heavy is generally better for damage-oriented stamina builds than medium armor in small scale PVP. I don't see many people complaining about medium armor. I'm not so sure a balanced medium armor build needs nerfing alongside heavy armor. I certainly don't think anyone wants medium armor buffed to be brought up to heavy armor's level in terms of total stat value.

Look at post #69. Try playing a non-redguard stamplar with nothing to repentance in 5 or 7 BR and see how your sustain is while weaving attacks lol. This means there is a good synergy for specific builds but not BR on its own is so broken OP. If you want to go down that route, we should find all synergies and remove for everything or just remove all passives because it requires too much thought for the player base to combine things for build synergy.

I can do a strawman too. If you wear the metacheese stam setup, tremorscale/viper/blackrose, and you wanted to duel a competent sorc. It will still be a stalemate with them in light armor shield stacking and camping mines or the sorc will win if you let your guard down and get nuked by them - generally after the 20 minute mark of the duel.

Yiko

Magus wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

If we just listen to the general complaints that heavy armor is OP and ZoS applies a blanket nerf - because that's what they do because players on these forums are generally too damn lazy to take an extra sentence to communicate accurate feedback - then we will be right back to where we were for two years: heavy armor being a sub-optimal choice.

Yeah, several times in this thread I have made it explicitly clear that I do not want tanks/magicka builds to be affected by stamina heavy armor user tuning. I just want a discussion on how best to do it, but I can't really even get people to acknowledge that HA/BR is a problem for stamina builds lol. It's baffling

I guess we agree that stamina builds are overtuned but I'm not sure it's HA.

I've found as a Magica build my kills are mostly the same as always: pressure, then carefully timed stuns and bursts with my ult. Stam users literally just burst over and over until you die, bevaus even their heavy attack Regen phase is proccing two proc sets AND a poison.

Look at post #34. Heavy is generally better for damage-oriented stamina builds than medium armor in small scale PVP. I don't see many people complaining about medium armor. I'm not so sure a balanced medium armor build needs nerfing alongside heavy armor. I certainly don't think anyone wants medium armor buffed to be brought up to heavy armor's level in terms of total stat value.

Look at post #69. Try playing a non-redguard stamplar with nothing to repentance in 5 or 7 BR and see how your sustain is while weaving attacks lol. This means there is a good synergy for specific builds but not BR on its own is so broken OP. If you want to go down that route, we should find all synergies and remove for everything or just remove all passives because it requires too much thought for the player base to combine things for build synergy.

I can do a strawman too. If you wear the metacheese stam setup, tremorscale/viper/blackrose, and you wanted to duel a competent sorc. It will still be a stalemate with them in light armor shield stacking and camping mines or the sorc will win if you let your guard down and get nuked by them - generally after the 20 minute mark of the duel.

Then swap some jewelry enchants/set bonuses/mundus to stam regen if you need more. You still get more stat value from heavy than medium armor lol.

Magus

Yiko wrote: »

Magus wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

If we just listen to the general complaints that heavy armor is OP and ZoS applies a blanket nerf - because that's what they do because players on these forums are generally too damn lazy to take an extra sentence to communicate accurate feedback - then we will be right back to where we were for two years: heavy armor being a sub-optimal choice.

Yeah, several times in this thread I have made it explicitly clear that I do not want tanks/magicka builds to be affected by stamina heavy armor user tuning. I just want a discussion on how best to do it, but I can't really even get people to acknowledge that HA/BR is a problem for stamina builds lol. It's baffling

I guess we agree that stamina builds are overtuned but I'm not sure it's HA.

I've found as a Magica build my kills are mostly the same as always: pressure, then carefully timed stuns and bursts with my ult. Stam users literally just burst over and over until you die, bevaus even their heavy attack Regen phase is proccing two proc sets AND a poison.

Look at post #34. Heavy is generally better for damage-oriented stamina builds than medium armor in small scale PVP. I don't see many people complaining about medium armor. I'm not so sure a balanced medium armor build needs nerfing alongside heavy armor. I certainly don't think anyone wants medium armor buffed to be brought up to heavy armor's level in terms of total stat value.

Look at post #69. Try playing a non-redguard stamplar with nothing to repentance in 5 or 7 BR and see how your sustain is while weaving attacks lol. This means there is a good synergy for specific builds but not BR on its own is so broken OP. If you want to go down that route, we should find all synergies and remove for everything or just remove all passives because it requires too much thought for the player base to combine things for build synergy.

I can do a strawman too. If you wear the metacheese stam setup, tremorscale/viper/blackrose, and you wanted to duel a competent sorc. It will still be a stalemate with them in light armor shield stacking and camping mines or the sorc will win if you let your guard down and get nuked by them - generally after the 20 minute mark of the duel.

Then swap some jewelry enchants/set bonuses/mundus to stam regen if you need more. You still get more stat value from heavy than medium armor lol.

I think you missed the point but I do understand where this post is coming from, it's harder to fight outnumbered where there are less squishy targets to nuke instantly. Posting these types of things though, mainly all it does is bring more awareness to it and create more people using the setups that you are complaining about.

It's interesting how much this game has changed in a year or even two years. Back then, nobody talked openly about their builds and kept broken/overperforming things within their own personal circle and there were more uniformed players to 1vX. Now these things get openly discussed on the forums and there are less uniformed players to 1vX. It's why most youtube content now is typically 3vX or greater vs not very outnumbered situations where people are getting Xv1'd streaming in one at a time.

Satiar

Yiko wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

If we just listen to the general complaints that heavy armor is OP and ZoS applies a blanket nerf - because that's what they do because players on these forums are generally too damn lazy to take an extra sentence to communicate accurate feedback - then we will be right back to where we were for two years: heavy armor being a sub-optimal choice.

Yeah, several times in this thread I have made it explicitly clear that I do not want tanks/magicka builds to be affected by stamina heavy armor user tuning. I just want a discussion on how best to do it, but I can't really even get people to acknowledge that HA/BR is a problem for stamina builds lol. It's baffling

I guess we agree that stamina builds are overtuned but I'm not sure it's HA.

I've found as a Magica build my kills are mostly the same as always: pressure, then carefully timed stuns and bursts with my ult. Stam users literally just burst over and over until you die, bevaus even their heavy attack Regen phase is proccing two proc sets AND a poison.

Look at post #34. Heavy is generally better for damage-oriented stamina builds than medium armor in small scale PVP. I don't see many people complaining about medium armor. I'm not so sure a balanced medium armor build needs nerfing alongside heavy armor. I certainly don't think anyone wants medium armor buffed to be brought up to heavy armor's level in terms of total stat value.

Edit: Pretty sure I just want soft caps back

I don't know why you keep saying HA is the problem when these sets allowing them to pressure and burst are medium armor (or MA jewelry/weapons)

You could remove HA from the game and they'd still have the damage and resource sustain to do what they do now.

Yiko

Satiar wrote: »

I don't know why you keep saying HA is the problem when these sets allowing them to pressure and burst are medium armor (or MA jewelry/weapons)

You could remove HA from the game and they'd still have the damage and resource sustain to do what they do now.

Yeah, we aren't talking proc sets or ganking right now.
Achieving the same level of damage & resource sustain on a medium armor build to the level of HA builds is impossible.

Magus wrote: »

I think you missed the point but I do understand where this post is coming from, it's harder to fight outnumbered where there are less squishy targets to nuke instantly. Posting these types of things though, mainly all it does is bring more awareness to it and create more people using the setups that you are complaining about.

It's interesting how much this game has changed in a year or even two years. Back then, nobody talked openly about their builds and kept broken/overperforming things within their own personal circle and there were more uniformed players to 1vX. Now these things get openly discussed on the forums and there are less uniformed players to 1vX. It's why most youtube content now is typically 3vX or greater vs not very outnumbered situations where people are getting Xv1'd streaming in one at a time.

Yeah, I've been quitting for months at a time ever since Orsinium was about to drop. Gameplay quality keeps deteriorating, and this meta is one of the worst, if not THE worst yet (though I didn't really experience the Malubeth phase). The reason people openly talk about these things is because the game is becoming more and more imbalanced, and because people have invested so much time into it, there's a genuine concern for design strategies and overall health of the game.

I don't particularly care about the skill level of players I fight. If the playerbase in general gets better over time, that's great. I simply want quality fights. However, if the playerbase is using extremely forgiving and/or easy-to-use yet highly effective builds, it kills it for me. People are being carried by builds rather than their individual capabilities now more than ever.

Magus

Yiko wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

I don't know why you keep saying HA is the problem when these sets allowing them to pressure and burst are medium armor (or MA jewelry/weapons)

You could remove HA from the game and they'd still have the damage and resource sustain to do what they do now.

Yeah, we aren't talking proc sets or ganking right now.
Achieving the same level of damage & resource sustain on a medium armor build to the level of HA builds is impossible.

Magus wrote: »

I think you missed the point but I do understand where this post is coming from, it's harder to fight outnumbered where there are less squishy targets to nuke instantly. Posting these types of things though, mainly all it does is bring more awareness to it and create more people using the setups that you are complaining about.

It's interesting how much this game has changed in a year or even two years. Back then, nobody talked openly about their builds and kept broken/overperforming things within their own personal circle and there were more uniformed players to 1vX. Now these things get openly discussed on the forums and there are less uniformed players to 1vX. It's why most youtube content now is typically 3vX or greater vs not very outnumbered situations where people are getting Xv1'd streaming in one at a time.

Yeah, I've been quitting for months at a time ever since Orsinium was about to drop. Gameplay quality keeps deteriorating, and this meta is one of the worst, if not THE worst yet (though I didn't really experience the Malubeth phase). The reason people openly talk about these things is because the game is becoming more and more imbalanced, and because people have invested so much time into it, there's a genuine concern for design strategies and overall health of the game.

I don't particularly care about the skill level of players I fight. If the playerbase in general gets better over time, that's great. I simply want quality fights. However, if the playerbase is using extremely forgiving and/or easy-to-use yet highly effective builds, it kills it for me. People are being carried by builds rather than their individual capabilities now more than ever.

I don't disagree with you on that at all. Quality fights in general are harder to find than ever before. You can get them in IC sometimes but it's hit or miss - the tel var week was some of the best PVP of recent times but part of that was fighting outnumbered against the previously mentioned uniformed masses that don't normally PVP. Overland Cyrodiil on TF is mostly just stacked factions fighting. You used to be able to kite people away and have them chase you for somewhat fair fights but now it seems like everyone is grouped up and you will get run down by people so thirsty it seems like they have never gotten AP before or they get 10-15k ap/hr because they have to share their AP with 60 people. So in the context of a 60 vs 60, what gear people are wearing individually doesn't make much difference. You could try balancing for the 1v1 but that's simply not possible, and part of why most duels vs good players end in a stalemate and are a borefest. Where the fun happens now is you need to come with a medium sized group (8-12), I know this dilutes from your individual skill and you will get viewed as a zergling though and frowned upon for having more than 3 people. You take that medium group to the backlines away from the faction stack and if you can pull off a portion of that faction, it will make for some fun fights. 8 vs 30 type of fights that are manageable and fun until the whole faction stacks on you and you get crushed. The other alternative is take your 3 man and zerg surf and ignore the other 57 people with you and go "GOT EM. WRECKED." like many streamers do, and act like you did it all by yourself

Magus

Last good fights I had were ironically also with you Yiko on my DC couple weeks ago. You had like a 3 man outside of sejanus and I rolled up after taking the town to the south with a group of 4 I think. We ended up in 7v30 against some EP. I asked if you wanted us to leave because screwing with your small man or not, you didn't answer and ended up taking my group to the bridge.

Other example on the other side, a guy on my friend's list is doing a 2vX. My group of 4 ends up fighting them, 2v3 while I'm off being a baddie off crown. They lose 1, we lose two, I show up. It's now a 1v2 for my friend. He streaks away, I could have chased him down and 2v1 killed him. Send a whisper saying nice job and that I wasn't going to chase him, I think he thought I meant nice job sarcastically and not genuinely. Ride away for a sec, swing back around because see big cross swords, then get accused for camping his friend's body. I didn't even know the body was there on the resource we owned. And now I'm unfriended lol.

Sharee

Yiko wrote: »

I'm not building my analysis on "stamina as a nonissue." Nonissue was probably a poor word choice. I didn't mean that it wasn't significant. Rather, I meant that both sides more or less canceled each other out. Once you have a certain amount of stam regen available to your build, any excess is unnecessary. It just happens to be very easy to reach that point.

Yes, but you won't reach that point in heavy unless other factors cause you to reach it, factors that do not have anything to do with what armor you are wearing. If certain factors cause stamina recovery to be a non-issue even in heavy armor, then those factors need to be looked at - not heavy armor.

Yiko

Sharee wrote: »

Yes, but you won't reach that point in heavy unless other factors cause you to reach it, factors that do not have anything to do with what armor you are wearing. If certain factors cause stamina recovery to be a non-issue even in heavy armor, then those factors need to be looked at - not heavy armor.

Take a redguard next to an orc, both stamina builds, both in full heavy armor, but the orc is in black rose while the redguard is not. You know who will have easier time with stamina management? The redguard, in all scenarios except for running away.

For the sake of this example, let's assume neither is overperforming. But then the redguard starts wearing BR too, and starts overperforming thanks to the combination of BR and his passive. What do you do? Nerf BR? Sure, that will help, but where does that leave the orc?

Yeah, so I don't feel the need to explain it again.
Your argument is that Medium Armor passives are equal if not better value than Heavy Armor passives for Stamina Damage-Oriented Users in PVP situations that require a certain level of survivability (read: not zerging), right? I disagree, and I've stated why.

You nerf all racials to be, for all intents and purposes, inconsequential so your inept company has less difficulty balancing the game, because it was a poor design choice to begin with if you have any respect for competitive integrity (which they don't).
Even then, Heavy Armor will still be better than Medium armor for many situations, especially small scale.

Magus wrote: »

Last good fights I had were ironically also with you Yiko on my DC couple weeks ago. You had like a 3 man outside of sejanus and I rolled up after taking the town to the south with a group of 4 I think. We ended up in 7v30 against some EP. I asked if you wanted us to leave because screwing with your small man or not, you didn't answer and ended up taking my group to the bridge.

Sorry about that, I generally respond to whispers, so I must have been drinking or distracted something haha, but I do definitely remember fighting with you.

Sharee

Yiko wrote: »

Yeah, so I don't feel the need to explain it again.
Your argument is that Medium Armor passives are equal if not better value than Heavy Armor passives for Stamina Damage-Oriented Users in PVP situations that require a certain level of survivability (read: not zerging), right? I disagree, and I've stated why.

Medium armor has better stamina management, and better damage than heavy armor.
Heavy armor has better magicka management, and more staying power.

They both have their value, and which one is better depends on the scenario.

Magus

For me, medium is shuffle and dodge rolls - cost reduction for this is pretty important. Heavy is stamina regeneration while blocking through constitution and the magicka to stamina conversion through a few abilities. You gonna get nuked either way, if in heavy and you don't block - you still going to get nuked and die almost instantly. If in medium and not dodge rolling or don't have shuffle up and get caught in roots, you're going to get nuked and die almost instantly. If in light armor and don't have your shield, you are going to get nuked and die almost instantly. See the theme? Damage is insane, in part to procs, in part to CP scaling up procs, in part to no soft caps. It's not just one thing, never is.

Yiko wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Yes, but you won't reach that point in heavy unless other factors cause you to reach it, factors that do not have anything to do with what armor you are wearing. If certain factors cause stamina recovery to be a non-issue even in heavy armor, then those factors need to be looked at - not heavy armor.

Take a redguard next to an orc, both stamina builds, both in full heavy armor, but the orc is in black rose while the redguard is not. You know who will have easier time with stamina management? The redguard, in all scenarios except for running away.

For the sake of this example, let's assume neither is overperforming. But then the redguard starts wearing BR too, and starts overperforming thanks to the combination of BR and his passive. What do you do? Nerf BR? Sure, that will help, but where does that leave the orc?

Yeah, so I don't feel the need to explain it again.
Your argument is that Medium Armor passives are equal if not better value than Heavy Armor passives for Stamina Damage-Oriented Users in PVP situations that require a certain level of survivability (read: not zerging), right? I disagree, and I've stated why.

You nerf all racials to be, for all intents and purposes, inconsequential so your inept company has less difficulty balancing the game, because it was a poor design choice to begin with if you have any respect for competitive integrity (which they don't).
Even then, Heavy Armor will still be better than Medium armor for many situations, especially small scale.

Magus wrote: »

Last good fights I had were ironically also with you Yiko on my DC couple weeks ago. You had like a 3 man outside of sejanus and I rolled up after taking the town to the south with a group of 4 I think. We ended up in 7v30 against some EP. I asked if you wanted us to leave because screwing with your small man or not, you didn't answer and ended up taking my group to the bridge.

Sorry about that, I generally respond to whispers, so I must have been drinking or distracted something haha, but I do definitely remember fighting with you.

No worries, was in /say chat so you might have missed it.

reclaimervii.sierra117ub17_ESO

Niaver wrote: »

So HA had been useless for like a year, and now you want to nerf it again, right?..

Don't want a dude in HA to regenerate? Don't hit him, anyway he doesn't have a lot of DPS.
Want to kill him? You have a lot of options how to do it fast: this meta is all about burst damage including all kind of cancer build, like current viper stuff.

Its about things being balanced dont mind a tank being you know tanky and having some dmg but it shouldnt out preform light armor and medium armor. Just like Light and Medium armor shouldnt be tanky

Xsorus

Heavy doesn't out perform medium or light in damage

Sanct16

Remove all "Deal x damage" sets and replace them with something a bit more creative.

Ragnaroek93

It's funny to see how people want to nerf proc sets but that everything else is fine in their opinion. I agree that proc sets are a bad design, but please show me how in hell you can kill any good heavy armor build or 50k+ max magicka shield build without using proc sets. Even with them it's not as easy as people want it to be. Proc sets are one of the problems in this meta, but by far not the only problem.

The main problem is, that Zenimax releases new sets that are more powerful than the sets we had before, otherwise people wouldn't play their content. Without any kind of softcaps the meta will become more and more extreme, we already have 10k health regen builds, 60k magicka builds, full proc set builds, 60k health blazing shield templar builds and who knows what else people might start playing in the future.

And please stop complaining about the stam meta all over again. Magicka builds got a lot new good sets with the last update, new buff food, a very strong aoe ultimate (which is still useless according to many crybabies), Infernal Guardian set and a strong single target ultimate. Pretty much the only thing that puts stam ahead now are in my opinion cost increase poisons (because they don't increase block cost or dodgeroll cost) and major vitality pots, because stambuilds scale better with them. Heavy armor stamina builds are the strongest in duels, I won't argue about that, but medium armor builds (guess what, there are stambuilds which use medium armor) are far away from being overpowered (I would even say that there are light armor builds out there which outperform medium armor builds). And for group play I actually think that magicka will become the meta, because magicka has way stronger aoe than stamina.