One major problem with Heavy Armor

altemriel

blackrose bonus should be nerfed to 10 or 20 percent max - problem solved!

the same with malubeth, nerf heal and nerf beam lenght

Soulac

Niaver wrote: »

So HA had been useless for like a year, and now you want to nerf it again, right?..

Don't want a dude in HA to regenerate? Don't hit him, anyway he doesn't have a lot of DPS.
Want to kill him? You have a lot of options how to do it fast: this meta is all about burst damage including all kind of cancer build, like current viper stuff.

The fact that something was near useless for a longer duration doesn't justify that it's too good right now.

Your statement that the dps or damage output of heavy armor players isn't that high just proves that you never fought against good heavy armor builds.

Yiko

4 screenshots showing difference between 6 heavy/1 medium & 6 medium/1 heavy with both food and drink.
Goal of this test: Total stat evaluation after reaching recommended max health & magicka regen for PVP (especially small scale) of both heavy and medium armor.
Drink test could have possibly been more efficient with +Max Health/+Max Stam food buff & swapping 2-3 jewelry glyphs to magicka, especially for Redguard, but it's not really that significant.. Epic Black Rose for heavy / Legendary Hundings for medium. Hundings has 1 prismatic glyph.

Cyrodiil Health Buff + Rally are included in every screenshot.
Food that was used: 5395 Max Health & 4936 Max Stam.
Drink that was used: 5000 Max Health + 457 Magicka Regen.

*take note: Constitution gives 781 mag/stam regen with Blackrose and 558 mag/stam regen with 6 pieces of Heavy Armor*

Food
1) http://imgur.com/PW1NWiE (6M/1H 10,238 Surprise Attack tooltip)
2) http://imgur.com/kHlIdVU (6H/1M 9,737 Surprise Attack tooltip)

Drink
3) http://imgur.com/55vsc7o (6M/1H 9,513 Surprise Attack tooltip)
4) http://imgur.com/eEMTAmz (6H/1M 9,013 Surprise Attack tooltip)

The ones we're comparing are 2 and 3. 1 and 4 are just for additional context.


Compare the character sheets of 2 and 3, and then weigh the stats of the medium/heavy armor passives + set bonuses of the gear
Link to Armor passives

Half of the medium armor passives are for regen/cost reduction, and Redguard+BR+Constitution(781 stam and mag regen)+CP is plenty sustain for heavy, so it balances out. Ultimately I'm missing ~8% crit & 12% weapon damage, but that 12% weapon damage is not an issue, because with medium armor, I either have to use a magicka drink or have to swap my jewelry glyphs to build for magicka regen (therefore forfeiting mass amounts of stamina (5000+) or weapon damage (~525). I gain damage by going heavy armor, without including the Wrath passive. I gain around 2.4k health, more self-healing, and 4k more resistances. I lose reduce sneak cost and 3% move speed while sprinting.


I'm too lazy and tired to do the math. Maybe I'll do it later, but it should be obvious. Knowing the passives & comparing the character stats, I kind of get the feeling that heavy armor has a bit more value to it 8)

Valencer

I can slap on 5 heavy and that's about 500-ish effective extra stamina and magicka regen right there provided Im getting hit. Be a redguard to get a little extra sustain and boom, youre at about 1500-ish effective stamina regen and 1000-ish effective magicka regen by doing nothing except wearing 5 heavy.

Medium armour can theoretically hit harder... you can stack more weapon damage and crit due to the passives. But good luck surviving in medium without any investment into sustain.

All this is why heavy armour users can hit just as hard as medium armour users in practice. People keep saying "It's not heavy itself, it's black rose/reactive/<insert heavy armour set>", but how long can you really keep telling yourself it's every heavy armour gear set that's the problem, instead of accepting that it might be heavy armour itself?

Sharee

Yiko wrote: »

4 screenshots showing difference between 6 heavy/1 medium & 6 medium/1 heavy with both food and drink.
Goal of this test: pushing for comparable levels of magicka regen (after Constitution regen is factored in) & an acceptable health threshold for PVP.
Drink test could have possibly been more efficient with +Max Health/+Max Stam food buff & swapping 2-3 jewelry glyphs to magicka, especially for Redguard, but it's not really that significant.. Epic Black Rose for heavy / Legendary Hundings for medium. Hundings has 1 prismatic glyph.

Cyrodiil Health Buff + Rally are included in every screenshot.
Food that was used: 5395 Max Health & 4936 Max Stam.
Drink that was used: 5000 Max Health + 457 Magicka Regen.

*take note: Constitution gives 781 mag/stam regen with Blackrose and 558 mag/stam regen with 6 pieces of Heavy Armor*

Food
1) http://imgur.com/PW1NWiE (6M/1H 10,238 Surprise Attack tooltip)
2) http://imgur.com/kHlIdVU (6H/1M 9,737 Surprise Attack tooltip)

Drink
3) http://imgur.com/55vsc7o (6M/1H 9,513 Surprise Attack tooltip)
4) http://imgur.com/eEMTAmz (6H/1M 9,013 Surprise Attack tooltip)

The ones we're comparing are 2 and 3. 1 and 4 are just for additional context.


Compare the character sheets of 2 and 3, and then weigh the stats of the medium/heavy armor passives + set bonuses of the gear
Link to Armor passives


I'm too lazy and tired to do the math. Maybe I'll do it later, but it should be obvious. Knowing the passives & comparing the character stats, I kind of get the feeling that heavy armor has a bit more value to it 8)

So in a test where the goal is to show what armor gives better magicka regen, the armor that gives magicka regen is better than the armor which does not.

Well.

Yiko

Sharee wrote: »

So in a test where the goal is to show what armor gives better magicka regen, the armor that gives magicka regen is better than the armor which does not.

Well.

Yes, get to a comparable level of magicka regen (factoring in Constitution) & hopefully a decent health level, and then weigh the value of the corresponding stats. Glad you're with us, thought we had lost you for a second. Thanks for the trolls.

It is a demonstration of everything that I've been saying in this thread. Heavy Armor is the pinnacle of stats.
Medium armor has to sacrifice too much to reach similar levels of magicka regen.

Sharee

Yiko wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

So in a test where the goal is to show what armor gives better magicka regen, the armor that gives magicka regen is better than the armor which does not.

Well.

Yes, get to a comparable level of magicka regen (factoring in Constitution) & hopefully a decent health level, and then weigh the value of the corresponding stats. Glad you're with us, thought we had lost you for a second. Thanks for the trolls.

It is a demonstration of everything that I've been saying in this thread. Heavy Armor is the pinnacle of stats.
Medium armor has to sacrifice too much to reach similar levels of magicka regen.

Cherry picking magicka regen, which medium armor does not provide at all, then claiming heavy armor is the pinnacle of stats just because it has better magicka recovery than medium... you seriously do not see what's wrong with that reasoning?

Lettigall

DKsUnite wrote: »

IMO the problem comes from stamina having too much easy resource management and proc sets and not heavy armour and constitution.

It's not hard to weave in a heavy attack as a stam user and regen stamina while with magicka you need to run a staff (which sometimes isn't optimal). Unchained allows free casts of vigors/rallys/shuffles. You can use magicka to regen your stamina like what you mentioned. Stamina has cheaper skill costs all round. Proc sets mostly favour stamina and are way too strong.

While as a magicka user, you can't double dip and use stamina to regen magicka (sorc can however) but it would be suicide to do it anyways because of not being able to block/break free. Magicka skills cost a huge amount aswell. We dont get a passive like unchained, we get 80% reduction on our next ability after you drink a potion which is every 45s....

Heavy buffs came at the same time as viper and proc sets and as someone who ran heavy stam DK without proc sets until this patch, killing people could sometimes be an issue. Again, it mostly came down to having poison proc so i could have some burst.

TL;DR
Remove proc sets. Increase stamina costs. Change unchained to "next cast is 80% cheaper".
Heavy armour isn't the issue! It's finally in a usuable spot for magicka builds (like mDK). Stamina just way overbuffed

Do you magicka builds use your main res for blocking, dodging, sprinting, breaking free and sneaking?

Sharee

Lettigall wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

IMO the problem comes from stamina having too much easy resource management and proc sets and not heavy armour and constitution.

It's not hard to weave in a heavy attack as a stam user and regen stamina while with magicka you need to run a staff (which sometimes isn't optimal). Unchained allows free casts of vigors/rallys/shuffles. You can use magicka to regen your stamina like what you mentioned. Stamina has cheaper skill costs all round. Proc sets mostly favour stamina and are way too strong.

While as a magicka user, you can't double dip and use stamina to regen magicka (sorc can however) but it would be suicide to do it anyways because of not being able to block/break free. Magicka skills cost a huge amount aswell. We dont get a passive like unchained, we get 80% reduction on our next ability after you drink a potion which is every 45s....

Heavy buffs came at the same time as viper and proc sets and as someone who ran heavy stam DK without proc sets until this patch, killing people could sometimes be an issue. Again, it mostly came down to having poison proc so i could have some burst.

TL;DR
Remove proc sets. Increase stamina costs. Change unchained to "next cast is 80% cheaper".
Heavy armour isn't the issue! It's finally in a usuable spot for magicka builds (like mDK). Stamina just way overbuffed

Do you magicka builds use your main res for blocking, dodging, sprinting, breaking free and sneaking?

Do your stamina builds die when they run out of your secondary res?

Yiko

Sharee wrote: »

Cherry picking magicka regen, which medium armor does not provide at all, then claiming heavy armor is the pinnacle of stats just because it has better magicka recovery than medium... you seriously do not see what's wrong with that reasoning?

Who is the one cherry picking? Am I REALLY saying heavy armor is the pinnacle of stats JUST because it has better magicka recovery than medium? Or is it also the health, stamina, and mitigation?

You seriously have made no decent points here. If you can't see why I chose magicka regen, then you haven't read the thread at at, and you honestly don't deserve anymore replies. It's because Heavy Armor provides stat values to the point that it can neglect building for any utility while focusing purely on damage, whereas Medium Armor does not have that luxury if users want the survivability provided by the magicka abilities I listed earlier in the thread. Yes, Medium Armor does more damage if that's all you want. That's it's specialization, but the damage doesn't outweigh the overall stat value that Heavy Armor provides.

I picked magicka regen for the test as an area that a medium armor user has to focus on through BUILD rather than passives, and then hopefully I provided some context into how much value medium armor users have to allocate to develop their builds as opposed to heavy armor users. Obviously heavy armor users have more value.

Lettigall

Sharee wrote: »

Lettigall wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

IMO the problem comes from stamina having too much easy resource management and proc sets and not heavy armour and constitution.

It's not hard to weave in a heavy attack as a stam user and regen stamina while with magicka you need to run a staff (which sometimes isn't optimal). Unchained allows free casts of vigors/rallys/shuffles. You can use magicka to regen your stamina like what you mentioned. Stamina has cheaper skill costs all round. Proc sets mostly favour stamina and are way too strong.

While as a magicka user, you can't double dip and use stamina to regen magicka (sorc can however) but it would be suicide to do it anyways because of not being able to block/break free. Magicka skills cost a huge amount aswell. We dont get a passive like unchained, we get 80% reduction on our next ability after you drink a potion which is every 45s....

Heavy buffs came at the same time as viper and proc sets and as someone who ran heavy stam DK without proc sets until this patch, killing people could sometimes be an issue. Again, it mostly came down to having poison proc so i could have some burst.

TL;DR
Remove proc sets. Increase stamina costs. Change unchained to "next cast is 80% cheaper".
Heavy armour isn't the issue! It's finally in a usuable spot for magicka builds (like mDK). Stamina just way overbuffed

Do you magicka builds use your main res for blocking, dodging, sprinting, breaking free and sneaking?

Do your stamina builds die when they run out of your secondary res?

Yes, when we are out of health we die, we don't have shields to protect us!

MalakithAlamahdi

Another mad cuz rekt by heavy armor player post. Nothing to see here, just move along.

IxSTALKERxI

Yiko wrote: »

[Yes, Medium Armor does more damage if that's all you want. That's it's specialization, but the damage doesn't outweigh the overall stat value that Heavy Armor provides.

Yep. Which is why I think heavy armor is best in small scale, groups of 6 or less. Whereas medium is better for 6+ groups. Although, I've been doing ok in groups as small as 4-5 in medium. As the group gets larger it is better to specialise.

I think half the reason people have different opinions is they aren't specifying the type of pvp each armor type excels in whether it be dueling, ganking, small scale or large scale.

Sharee

Yiko wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Cherry picking magicka regen, which medium armor does not provide at all, then claiming heavy armor is the pinnacle of stats just because it has better magicka recovery than medium... you seriously do not see what's wrong with that reasoning?

Who is the one cherry picking? Am I REALLY saying heavy armor is the pinnacle of stats JUST because it has better magicka recovery than medium? Or is it also the health, stamina, and mitigation?

Let's see.

Goal of this test: pushing for comparable levels of magicka regen

Heavy Armor is the pinnacle of stats.

You used a test where, by your own words, you are only taking into account magicka recovery. Nothing wrong with that.
But then, you used this test where you only evaluated one aspect (where heavy armor is better), and from that you drew a conclusion that extends beyond the scope of magicka recovery, ignoring other important factors, like stamina recovery. That is what i call cherry-picking.

Yiko wrote: »

It's because Heavy Armor provides stat values to the point that it can neglect building for any utility while focusing purely on damage

Heavy armor that focuses purely on damage will run into resource issues. I am playing a mDK in full heavy(which has the same constitution returns as 5 BR), and i can not afford to use all my jewelry slots for damage. I have to run one cost reduction and one mag regen glyph, or run out of magicka several seconds into the fight. I also have to rely on cheap abilities like embers a lot.

This whole "just run BR and you can ignore everything but damage" is a bunch of ....

Yiko

Sharee wrote: »

You used a test where, by your own words, you are only taking into account magicka recovery. Nothing wrong with that.
But then, you used this test where you only evaluated one aspect (where heavy armor is better), and from that you drew a conclusion that extends beyond the scope of magicka recovery, ignoring other important factors, like stamina recovery. That is what i call cherry-picking.

Yiko wrote: »

Compare the character sheets of 2 and 3, and then weigh the stats of the medium/heavy armor passives + set bonuses of the gear

I'm too lazy and tired to do the math. Maybe I'll do it later, but it should be obvious. Knowing the passives & comparing the character stats, I kind of get the feeling that heavy armor has a bit more value to it 8)

Nope, you just have zero reading comprehension. Nowhere did I say that only magicka recovery was taken into account. Nowhere did I ignore all other factors. You lack the imagination to understand the implications of what I was trying to represent. I'm not going to do all of the math for you because talking with you has made me realize that it's actually futile either way.

Sharee wrote: »

Heavy armor that focuses purely on damage will run into resource issues. I am playing a mDK in full heavy(which has the same constitution returns as 5 BR), and i can not afford to use all my jewelry slots for damage. I have to run one cost reduction and one mag regen glyph, or run out of magicka several seconds into the fight. I also have to rely on cheap abilities like embers a lot.

This whole "just run BR and you can ignore everything but damage" is a bunch of ....

Cute anecdote about your magicka DK btw. Definitely apples to oranges, completely irrelevant. I imagine when Constitution returns a flat amount of resources & your magicka abilities cost more than my stamina abilities and are used more than my magicka abilties, you would have to run some magicka regen & reduction. Imagine that.

Yiko wrote: »

I also have no intention of discussing heavy armor's usage by magicka builds or tanks at this point in time. This is strictly stamina builds.

Time and time again you've demonstrated a lack of reading comprehension. Please just go away

Sharee

Yiko wrote: »

Nope, you just have zero reading comprehension. Nowhere did I say that only magicka recovery was taken into account. Nowhere did I ignore all other factors.

Post #34. "Goal of this test: pushing for comparable levels of magicka regen". It is testing the ease of reaching comparable magicka values between medium and heavy. The test does not take into account stamina, at all. Yet, at the end of the test, you concluded that "Heavy Armor is the pinnacle of stats". But the test does not support that claim. It just supports the claim that heavy armor has better magicka recovery than medium. Nothing more.

Yiko wrote: »

I also have no intention of discussing heavy armor's usage by magicka builds or tanks at this point in time. This is strictly stamina builds.

Heavy armor passives do exactly the same thing to magicka and stamina builds. If stamina builds are overperforming in heavy but magicka builds are not, chances are the issue is with stamina builds, and not with heavy armor.

Yiko

Sharee wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

I also have no intention of discussing heavy armor's usage by magicka builds or tanks at this point in time. This is strictly stamina builds.

Heavy armor passives do exactly the same thing to magicka and stamina builds. If stamina builds are overperforming in heavy but magicka builds are not, then you are barking up the wrong tree.

Yeah, no.. no. Just stop. Magicka and stamina builds have different abilities, different primary resources, resource costs, and gameplay mechanics in general. Just because Heavy Armor gives bonuses to both, it does not mean that they have to perform at the same level. The strengths provided from HA might lend itself better to one over the other.
I beg you, please stop

thankyourat

Lettigall wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Lettigall wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

IMO the problem comes from stamina having too much easy resource management and proc sets and not heavy armour and constitution.

It's not hard to weave in a heavy attack as a stam user and regen stamina while with magicka you need to run a staff (which sometimes isn't optimal). Unchained allows free casts of vigors/rallys/shuffles. You can use magicka to regen your stamina like what you mentioned. Stamina has cheaper skill costs all round. Proc sets mostly favour stamina and are way too strong.

While as a magicka user, you can't double dip and use stamina to regen magicka (sorc can however) but it would be suicide to do it anyways because of not being able to block/break free. Magicka skills cost a huge amount aswell. We dont get a passive like unchained, we get 80% reduction on our next ability after you drink a potion which is every 45s....

Heavy buffs came at the same time as viper and proc sets and as someone who ran heavy stam DK without proc sets until this patch, killing people could sometimes be an issue. Again, it mostly came down to having poison proc so i could have some burst.

TL;DR
Remove proc sets. Increase stamina costs. Change unchained to "next cast is 80% cheaper".
Heavy armour isn't the issue! It's finally in a usuable spot for magicka builds (like mDK). Stamina just way overbuffed

Do you magicka builds use your main res for blocking, dodging, sprinting, breaking free and sneaking?

Do your stamina builds die when they run out of your secondary res?

Yes, when we are out of health we die, we don't have shields to protect us!

Lol what?

frozywozy

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

I posted this in another thread, but I thought I'd repost it for visibility. I want to hear people's thoughts on it.


Blackrose DOES give users too many stats and resources, but another huge part of the problem IMO is the Constitution passive itself. With Black Rose it can give up to around 1.8-1.9k stam/magicka back every 4 seconds, and around 1300-1400 w/o it IIRC. That's around 900 stam and magicka regen in utility, provided you're in combat and constantly being hit. That's about DOUBLE what a typical stam character's default magicka regen is at. I don't know how much this has been touched on, but I think the magicka utility that heavy armor provides for stam users has lead to complete overperformance. The gameplay is incredibly forgiving courtesy of the inherent tankiness and utility of heavy armor. For example, look at the following class skills that are spammable due to the magicka sustain that BR and heavy armor in general provide:
- Templars are able to use Restoring Focus & Extended Ritual (purge) more freely, both providing Major Mending.
- Sorcerers are able to streak and use Dark Deal (HUGE resource return) very often
- Dragonknights aren't quite as popular these days, but they're able to use Igneous Shield constantly to keep up Major Mending & return stam
- Nightblades are able to use Dark Cloak (invisibility + damage reduction) + Mass Hysteria (AOE CC)

Magicka abilities offer incredibly powerful sustainability on the already tanky Heavy Armor builds. Due to that magicka sustain, Heavy Armor stamina users can completely bypass the use of drinks & can neglect to build for any magicka recovery. What does that mean? Pure emphasis on damage.
These builds have unholy levels of damage due to weapon damage stacking & the use of proc sets (such as Viper, Velidreth, and Tremorscale, another problem in their own right). Because BR & Heavy armor provide huge levels of sustain (almost double the regen that a stam/magicka drink provides or default magicka regen), high levels of mitigation (increased armor), and increased healing (due to passives) among other benefits such as reduced block costs, Heavy Armor users simply build for damage.

Where's the tradeoff for using Heavy Armor? Medium Armor builds need to run food in order to not be completely obliterated by these Heavy Armor builds and therefore forfeit magicka sustain unless intentionally building for it (but will have to sacrifice stats for it).

A 20k health 30k stam medium armor build who runs drink for magicka sustain will wind up with effectively ~+500 mag regen & a bit more stam regen.
That same 20k health and 30k stam build that runs food on heavy armor will wind up with ~ +800 mag/stam regen and THEN gain ~5k health & stam from the food +10-14% more total health because of heavy armor passives + possibly more % to all stats due to undaunted passives. That's at LEAST 11,000 value in raw stam/health stats alone while keeping up in regen & sustainability.
Medium armor passives do not even remotely compare to heavy armor.

Heavy Armor is the pinnacle of stat value, and Black Rose exacerbates that issue. Constitution passive should give EITHER stamina or magicka based on whichever stat is higher, or if that isn't found to be a generally appropriate change, it at least needs to undergo some kind of rework.

So I'll start replying to your post by saying that in my opinion, the best way to figure out if something is over performing or not is to test it out in duels with combat log opened and a friendly opponent who is open to try stuff out. I have been dueling alot since the patch got released. Prolly got over 300 fights already. I have been fighting the meta cancer builds in heavy armor using proc sets and I have a pretty good idea of what they can achieve.

This being said, you state that someone in heavy doesn't need to run drinks because of the sustain they get. I'm sorry but you must be confused between someone running black rose and someone running heavy in general. black rose broken, heavy is not. I am running 6heavy -1medium at the moment and my magicka recovery is sitting at 1.8k. I got 80points in arcanist, 2 magicka recovery enchants yellow and I use max health / magicka recovery drinks. On top of that I've got 2.4k crit resist, 30k physical resist and undeath passive from vampire.

When I fight against a viper/tremor s&b animation clipping build, moving around and trying to survive as best as I can, they can still deal a constant 25-30k dps and drain my ressources in less than 30 seconds if played properly.

The problem is Black Rose and all damage proc sets, not heavy armor. Nerf Heavy armor and you condemn the remaining chances that magplars and magdks have in small scale openworld pvp.

His whole comment was towards stamina heavy builds fyi. The magicka utility every stamina class has is very strong. The fact black rose and 7 heavy means you have enough magicka to neglect it completly compared to medium builds is the issue he was trying to get across.

I agree wih him. I have to sacrifice a lot of max hp and stamina to have decent magicka recovery in a medium build. If magicka recovery, maximum stamina drinks/foods existed maybe medium would be at a fair playing field compared to heavy.

He sumed it up pretty well. Im not gunna repeat what he said.

Even if what he said was regarding stamina heavy armor builds and you agree with what he said, it doesn't change the fact that heavy armor is a must for magplar and magdk in the current state of the game. You totally neglected that aspect that I developed into my post. What is your suggestion?

Sharee

Yiko wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

I also have no intention of discussing heavy armor's usage by magicka builds or tanks at this point in time. This is strictly stamina builds.

Heavy armor passives do exactly the same thing to magicka and stamina builds. If stamina builds are overperforming in heavy but magicka builds are not, then you are barking up the wrong tree.

Yeah, no.. no. Just stop. Magicka and stamina builds have different abilities, different primary resources, resource costs, and gameplay mechanics in general. Just because Heavy Armor gives bonuses to both, it does not mean that they have to perform at the same level. The strengths provided from HA might lend itself better to one over the other.
I beg you, please stop

I am not saying the builds are performing at the same level, i am saying that the differences in performance are caused by other factors than heavy armor. If something needs to be adjusted, it should be the builds themselves, not the armor they both wear.

You say magicka and stamina builds have different abilities, resources, costs... that's exactly what needs to be re-evaluated and adjusted. Adjusting stamina abilities affects stamina builds, leaving magicka builds alone. Adjusting heavy armor which both wear on the other hand affects both, even when magicka builds did not need the adjustment(or at least not in the same direction).

frozywozy

umagon wrote: »

Those "proc" sets are not really a valid argument as they have counters. Some are classified as aoe damage which can be reduced dramatically by two sets available in the game. The others do a specific type of damage which can be mitigated with use of resist jewelry glyph and application of minor/major maim. The ignoring these counters is the real problem people are having, because they don't want to trade off damage output for damage mitigation.

Heavy armor is fine the way it is and should not go back to being useless because some people refuse to use the counters in the game to defeat it. There are number of ways to strip points off a target's resistances, there are a number of ways to burn a target's resource pool, and there are a number of ways to reduce a target's healing. It's time for people to stop complaining about heavy armor, when their real issue is they refuse to use the counter play system given to them.

So what you're saying is that people should use sets that counter proc sets and have no damage and not be able to kill anybody? sounds like fun! You literally have not played the game long to state that the combination of viper / tremor / widowmaker or black rose / viper / tremor is working as intended. Your reply makes me sick.

frozywozy

Yiko wrote: »

4 screenshots showing difference between 6 heavy/1 medium & 6 medium/1 heavy with both food and drink.
Goal of this test: pushing for comparable levels of magicka regen (after Constitution regen is factored in) & an acceptable health threshold for PVP.
Drink test could have possibly been more efficient with +Max Health/+Max Stam food buff & swapping 2-3 jewelry glyphs to magicka, especially for Redguard, but it's not really that significant.. Epic Black Rose for heavy / Legendary Hundings for medium. Hundings has 1 prismatic glyph.

Cyrodiil Health Buff + Rally are included in every screenshot.
Food that was used: 5395 Max Health & 4936 Max Stam.
Drink that was used: 5000 Max Health + 457 Magicka Regen.

*take note: Constitution gives 781 mag/stam regen with Blackrose and 558 mag/stam regen with 6 pieces of Heavy Armor*

Food
1) http://imgur.com/PW1NWiE (6M/1H 10,238 Surprise Attack tooltip)
2) http://imgur.com/kHlIdVU (6H/1M 9,737 Surprise Attack tooltip)

Drink
3) http://imgur.com/55vsc7o (6M/1H 9,513 Surprise Attack tooltip)
4) http://imgur.com/eEMTAmz (6H/1M 9,013 Surprise Attack tooltip)

The ones we're comparing are 2 and 3. 1 and 4 are just for additional context.


Compare the character sheets of 2 and 3, and then weigh the stats of the medium/heavy armor passives + set bonuses of the gear
Link to Armor passives


I'm too lazy and tired to do the math. Maybe I'll do it later, but it should be obvious. Knowing the passives & comparing the character stats, I kind of get the feeling that heavy armor has a bit more value to it 8)

Everything you're saying makes sense. The only valid information missing out in your theorycrafting is what kind of suggestion do you have to nerf heavy armor without affecting magplar / magDK in small scale openworld pvp?

Yiko

Sharee wrote: »

I am not saying the builds are performing at the same level, i am saying that the differences in performance are caused by other factors than heavy armor. If something needs to be adjusted, it should be the builds themselves, not the armor they both wear.

Oh, I misunderstood. Sorry. That's a good point, and someone mentioned it earlier, though I wouldn't say that differences in performance aren't influenced by heavy armor. I'm just looking for a short-term solution to incentivize some of these stamina heavy armor users to ditch some of their damage. How else do you punish heavy armor stamina users and no other heavy armor users or medium armor users? My solution was for stamina to not have access to the magicka regen portion of Constitution so meta heavy builds would have to give up some survivability or damage. Heavy armor w/o proc performs better for damage oriented stamina builds than medium armor does, at least in small scale. This is totally illogical and needs to be addressed.

frozywozy wrote: »

Everything you're saying makes sense. The only valid information missing out in your theorycrafting is what kind of suggestion do you have to nerf heavy armor without affecting magplar / magDK in small scale openworld pvp?

We all know that this game needs incremental changes and testing, as kneejerk reactions and complete overhauls don't tend to go so well.. Procs need to be addressed, probably a cooldown on procs to limit your build to 1 damaging proc every X seconds.
And honestly, I know ZOS' coders aren't quite that proficient, but I'd like to see Constitution changed for stamina builds in PVP. If stam is your highest resource, and you're in a PVP zone, you can't benefit from the magicka portion of Constitution.

It's so hard to address this issue. Soft caps probably aren't coming back. ZOS won't slap a damage penalty debuff on heavy armor stamina users.
What can you ACTUALLY change if you don't want to screw over the non-offenders (mag/tank heavy armor builds, medium builds)? It's very limited.

If people TRULY feel like heavy armor isn't a problem, you could just buff medium to be in line with heavy. Give it a passive or something that gives you 1/4 or 1/3 magicka regen of your total stam regen? I don't know. No one reads what I type anyways.

Sharee

Yiko wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

I am not saying the builds are performing at the same level, i am saying that the differences in performance are caused by other factors than heavy armor. If something needs to be adjusted, it should be the builds themselves, not the armor they both wear.

How else do you punish heavy armor stamina users and no other heavy armor users or medium armor users?

One quick and dirty solution would be to increase the cost of stamina abilities, but at the same time improve the cost reduction bonus of medium armor.

More changes would likely be needed, taking pve tanks into account for example, etc.... we'll see what ZOS comes up with in update 13 - they promised to address the stam/mag imbalance with it.

Yiko

Sharee wrote: »

One quick and dirty solution would be to increase the cost of stamina abilities, but at the same time improve the cost reduction bonus of medium armor.

Yeah, but that still hits non-offenders with nerfs, though I think you're on the right track. You just need to hit areas where heavy armor stam users currently have the freedom to build damage.

Yiko

Sharee wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Nope, you just have zero reading comprehension. Nowhere did I say that only magicka recovery was taken into account. Nowhere did I ignore all other factors.

Post #34. "Goal of this test: pushing for comparable levels of magicka regen". It is testing the ease of reaching comparable magicka values between medium and heavy. The test does not take into account stamina, at all. Yet, at the end of the test, you concluded that "Heavy Armor is the pinnacle of stats". But the test does not support that claim. It just supports the claim that heavy armor has better magicka recovery than medium. Nothing more.

I never said ONLY magicka, as I mentioned health directly after.
The test takes ALL stats into account. It's a total stat evaluation. You just did not read into it at all. The benchmark of the test was to reach a generally recommended level of max health and magicka regen for PVP (especially small scale) and then PUMP as much as you can into the rest of your stats for maximum damage. When comparing the total value of the stats of medium armor against heavy armor's value, you can definitely see that heavy armor comes out on top.

I don't know why you think I'd do something as stupid as throwing on medium armor, using a drink that gives me less magicka regen than Constitution gives, and then saying "HEAVY ARMOR IS THE BEST!" without any regard for other factors.

IxSTALKERxI

I think the reason heavy armour appears to be over performing in some aspects of PvP is due to the overall damage creep.

If someone in heavy armor has the ability to burst down a player in a matter of seconds, then what is the point in wearing light or medium? They don't need as much sustain due to the fight being over so fast, and have greater suitability through resistances.

If the damage output in pvp was lower, you would benefit more from squeezing the extra potential damage from medium, and you wouldn't get insta-gibbed for choosing medium over heavy. The longer fights would benefit the cost reduction of medium more.

Solution is to nerf burst potential from proc sets and find a way to offset the constant damage creep which occurs each patch. (current battle spirit buffs are a poor attempt to balance the power creep) Imo, these are the main causes of the heavy armor outcry in the PvP community.

Sharee

Yiko wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Nope, you just have zero reading comprehension. Nowhere did I say that only magicka recovery was taken into account. Nowhere did I ignore all other factors.

Post #34. "Goal of this test: pushing for comparable levels of magicka regen". It is testing the ease of reaching comparable magicka values between medium and heavy. The test does not take into account stamina, at all. Yet, at the end of the test, you concluded that "Heavy Armor is the pinnacle of stats". But the test does not support that claim. It just supports the claim that heavy armor has better magicka recovery than medium. Nothing more.

I never said ONLY magicka, as I mentioned health directly after.
The test takes ALL stats into account. It's a total stat evaluation. You just did not read into it at all. The benchmark of the test was to reach a generally recommended level of max health and magicka regen for PVP (especially small scale) and then PUMP as much as you can into the rest of your stats for maximum damage. When comparing the total value of the stats of medium armor against heavy armor's value, you can definitely see that heavy armor comes out on top.

I don't know why you think I'd do something as stupid as throwing on medium armor, using a drink that gives me less magicka regen than Constitution gives, and then saying "HEAVY ARMOR IS THE BEST!" without any regard for other factors.

I did not see any evaluation of stamina in that test tho. The cost reduction of medium for example alone can be enough to compensate for what heavy armor gives, the add regen bonuses. Then add situational factors, like "what if i am not continually attacked". Then what about cost reduction of roll dodge. The issue is a lot more complicated than just "heavy is better cuz they get utility because they get more magicka back". Things like redguard racial - that thing is twice as good at returning stamina than BR 5-piece bonus, for example. All this combined make stamina a lot less of an issue for the heavy user than it should be, but that's a factor from outside of heavy armor itself.

umagon

frozywozy wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

Those "proc" sets are not really a valid argument as they have counters. Some are classified as aoe damage which can be reduced dramatically by two sets available in the game. The others do a specific type of damage which can be mitigated with use of resist jewelry glyph and application of minor/major maim. The ignoring these counters is the real problem people are having, because they don't want to trade off damage output for damage mitigation.

Heavy armor is fine the way it is and should not go back to being useless because some people refuse to use the counters in the game to defeat it. There are number of ways to strip points off a target's resistances, there are a number of ways to burn a target's resource pool, and there are a number of ways to reduce a target's healing. It's time for people to stop complaining about heavy armor, when their real issue is they refuse to use the counter play system given to them.

So what you're saying is that people should use sets that counter proc sets and have no damage and not be able to kill anybody? sounds like fun! You literally have not played the game long to state that the combination of viper / tremor / widowmaker or black rose / viper / tremor is working as intended. Your reply makes me sick.

I dealt with those particular set builds all last night and they were for the most part easily countered and the people using them killed. The counter sets can be used in conjunction with other non proc sets to make up for some of the damage lost. When you take the glass cannon's cannon away they break easily even if they are using sets like blackrose. Using only heavy armor does not make one a tank, and blackrose no exception. Heavy armor is only one part of being "tanky" which is has counters of it's own. And you can stop with the ad-hominem I have have playing the game since the day of release. Also if you are sick I have an extra portable chamber pot you can have it's only "slightly" used.

Lucky28

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Heavy armor is fine. It's the stam proc sets that are over killing it. Heavy armor meta is only a sympton. ZOS needs to get to the root of the problem, not the symptom.

this is the truth of it. the reason i gave up on light and switched to heavy is because of those Stam proc sets they're freaking insane.