Why would you change NORMAL dungeons?

CombatPrayer

I do not understand the logic behind this at all. I truly do not. Low level players and new player run them. If the issue is you want to challenge those who want to be challenged, changes should be in vet dungeon ONLY. Low level toons now have quite a bit of difficulty in the NORMAL dungeons. I had players leave my group to switch to cp levels when they are trying to level their lower ones doing a few random dungeons only to discover that this no longer feels like a valid option to them. This is just absurd. There is no logic in this decision. The normal dungeons were and have been challenging to most players. Now they take absurd amount of damage and die far too often, leaving their armor wrecked so that lower level and newer players find doing dungeons far too costly due to repairs.

I get that there was an outcry for difficulty, but let those who are wanting that do it in vet. They should be doing vets if they want that difficulty. Normal is for normal players and players who are leveling up. The vet is there for the challenge. If it was not challenging enough then make the new vet dungeons even harder. Changing things so that low level and newer players are overwhelmed in a dungeon is just a bad idea.

Normal should mean normal. Vet players who want it more difficult should not be in normal dungeons and whining about how easy it is. Mess with the vets for them but leave the normals alone.

Save the git gud loser comments. Nobody wants or needs them.

flizomica

l2p. if people want to do group content they should have not-*** builds. that means item sets and a skill bar that makes any sense. the scaling is super freaking generous too for low-level characters.

cjthibs

Seriously.
I only have 300-ish CP and I could easily 3-man normal dungeons with no healer.

Instead of git gud, I'd say challenge yourself. It's more fun when you do.

Milvan

First of all, are you aware that now NORMAL dungeons are PART I and they now have a veteran mode right? Are you referring to the NORMAL MODE OF DUNGEONS I?

Concerning the NORMAL MODE OF DUNGEONS I: I barely noticed any change.

Concerning the VETERAN MODE OF DUNGEONS I: They can take a while to learn how to avoid the one-shot mechanics (if it applies) and you need a good dps to take the 6kk hp bosses down. But they are FAR from impossible, even with a lowbie group.

(edit: minor typos)

Danksta

While I get what you're saying, there shouldn't be such a gap in difficulty between normal and vet. All that will do is give players a hard time when trying to adapt to vet dungeons at the same time dealing with impatient experienced players that can beat the vet dungeons in their sleep.

CultOfMMO

completely agree, the normal scaling is BS, esp the II versions of dungeons.

Marto

chloethefoxxub17_ESO wrote: »

l2p. if people want to do group content they should have not-*** builds. that means item sets and a skill bar that makes any sense. the scaling is super freaking generous too for low-level characters.

It is a NORMAL dungeon. It's unlocked at level 10, for level 10 players.

Voxicity

Pretty sure most people replying to you haven't even tested it. NORMAL versions of dungeons are definitely harder than before the patch, mobs hit more and have way higher health.

Not that it bothers me, I did a normal by accident and noticed this. But it definitely has changed quite substantially

flizomica

Marto wrote: »

chloethefoxxub17_ESO wrote: »

l2p. if people want to do group content they should have not-*** builds. that means item sets and a skill bar that makes any sense. the scaling is super freaking generous too for low-level characters.

It is a NORMAL dungeon. It's unlocked at level 10, for level 10 players.

then they can make level 10 gear or get someone to craft it for them. dunno why so many people want all game content to require 0 effort. just go back to questing if you dont want to make a good build.

Milvan

KaiVox22 wrote: »

Pretty sure most people replying to you haven't even tested it. NORMAL versions of dungeons are definitely harder than before the patch, mobs hit more and have way higher health.

Not that it bothers me, I did a normal by accident and noticed this. But it definitely has changed quite substantially

I have done a lot of them to help a lowbie friend and I can't say that I noticed any change. Which means that if they changed anything, it's barely noticed able.

CombatPrayer

chloethefoxxub17_ESO wrote: »

l2p. if people want to do group content they should have not-*** builds. that means item sets and a skill bar that makes any sense. the scaling is super freaking generous too for low-level characters.

New players barely have time to learn all this stuff and their skills are pretty lame when they start, like NO AOE in most toons until way up there in levels. Clearly you don't know jack about playing as a new player or you would have considered those factors like minimal passives, limited skills and skills that don't do much damage, no aoe, etc. All of which are fair to consider. You speak about builds from the stance of someone who is high cp. I am speaking of my lower level guildies who are having very difficult times in normal dungeons when they used to have a challenge.

Hempyre

@chloethefoxxub17_ESO

Normal content is designed for new and low level players. So they can learn group interaction and mechanics, and get access to sets and xp.

Previous to the maintenance normals were quite easy... for established players. But they aren't the target for this content, that's what vet and trials are for.

How are they supposed to l2p when the content they should be running for that purpose has been scaled above their capabilities?

I don't think the difficulty of the norm dungeon changes was intended to be so severe.

MissBizz

chloethefoxxub17_ESO wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

chloethefoxxub17_ESO wrote: »

l2p. if people want to do group content they should have not-*** builds. that means item sets and a skill bar that makes any sense. the scaling is super freaking generous too for low-level characters.

It is a NORMAL dungeon. It's unlocked at level 10, for level 10 players.

then they can make level 10 gear or get someone to craft it for them. dunno why so many people want all game content to require 0 effort. just go back to questing if you dont want to make a good build.

@chloethefoxxub17_ESO Have you done a normal dungeon since yesterday? Preferably on a level 10 with level 10 gear? It changed substantially.

flizomica

MissBizz wrote: »

chloethefoxxub17_ESO wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

chloethefoxxub17_ESO wrote: »

l2p. if people want to do group content they should have not-*** builds. that means item sets and a skill bar that makes any sense. the scaling is super freaking generous too for low-level characters.

It is a NORMAL dungeon. It's unlocked at level 10, for level 10 players.

then they can make level 10 gear or get someone to craft it for them. dunno why so many people want all game content to require 0 effort. just go back to questing if you dont want to make a good build.

@chloethefoxxub17_ESO Have you done a normal dungeon since yesterday? Preferably on a level 10 with level 10 gear? It changed substantially.

yeah i'm leveling a stamplar now. he's lv11 with lvl 10 training gear. its still easy.

MissBizz

chloethefoxxub17_ESO wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

chloethefoxxub17_ESO wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

chloethefoxxub17_ESO wrote: »

l2p. if people want to do group content they should have not-*** builds. that means item sets and a skill bar that makes any sense. the scaling is super freaking generous too for low-level characters.

It is a NORMAL dungeon. It's unlocked at level 10, for level 10 players.

then they can make level 10 gear or get someone to craft it for them. dunno why so many people want all game content to require 0 effort. just go back to questing if you dont want to make a good build.

chloethefoxxub17_ESO Have you done a normal dungeon since yesterday? Preferably on a level 10 with level 10 gear? It changed substantially.

yeah i'm leveling a stamplar now. he's lv11 with lvl 10 training gear. its still easy.

Just wanted to ensure you did one since this weeks patch. Health went up as per patch notes, but it appears damage went up substantially too.

Sneakles

I don't understand the hate here. I definitely agree with the OP, normal dungeons should not have been made more difficult. The point in a normal dungeon is an intro into the dungeon, for beginners or highly casual players. It is suppose to be relatively easy mode designed to be capable to perform from level 10 and for beginners. It is the lowest tier of dungeons, so of course it should be easy.

For the players saying l2p, well these dungeons are designed for players STILL in the process of learning to play. Vet dungeons are designed for the players who have mastered thier play style.

Hopefully ZOS will see the poor scaling that has rolled out in normal dungeons an adjust difficulty without effecting the new vet dungeon difficulty that I am content with.

CombatPrayer

Dungeons should have stayed the same and the new ones added for vet should have been focused on those that want more challenging runs. The new normals added should have been on par with current normals. You do not alienate new players who are just trying to learn and have fun in the game as they learn. You focus on making challenges with new content for those vets who want it. That is how you cater to that base. You don't randomly change already existing things because the mood strikes you to do so. You build new things to entice the older players to want to stay or return while leaving current things as is. What they did here was the cheap and lazy way. Apparently that is the ZOS way of doing things. Vets who want the challenge deserve to have that, but other players should not be penalized for not being those vets.

Go ahead and tell me that those level 20 players should git gud and show what kind of person you really are.

UrQuan

Milvan wrote: »

KaiVox22 wrote: »

Pretty sure most people replying to you haven't even tested it. NORMAL versions of dungeons are definitely harder than before the patch, mobs hit more and have way higher health.

Not that it bothers me, I did a normal by accident and noticed this. But it definitely has changed quite substantially

I have done a lot of them to help a lowbie friend and I can't say that I noticed any change. Which means that if they changed anything, it's barely noticed able.

@Milvan how many of them have you done since they buffed them yesterday?

Afafrenferr

I haven't done a normal dungeon since the patch, but I can't imagine it's any more difficult than the vet I versions, which are all solo-able with a mediocre toon, and a little knowledge of how to be effective with said toon. I have to say though, I think the thing to do is find out what about your toon is lacking and work on improving those things. If you're having sustain issues, find out what you can do to make your resources last longer. If you're a healer and everyone is dropping dead left and right, either practice the mechanics, blocking, or look at resistances, or maybe the healer isn't using effective skills. Practice and your toon will get better. Upgrade gear and your toon will get better. That's kinda the point of these games. Progression over time. If you want some help, I'll be more than happy to kick it and run the content of your choosing any time I'm on. PC/NA @Afafrenfere. Add me and we'll kill some stuff.

BoudiccaStormborn

autumnsongbird wrote: »

Normal should mean normal. Vet players who want it more difficult should not be in normal dungeons and whining about how easy it is. Mess with the vets for them but leave the normals alone.

I just now made a formal decision to not do dungeons until this is fixed. We tried normal FG-I and normal EH-II. Elden Hollow was a freaking nightmare. That first big group of random mobs instantly wiped an experienced group. We respawn as we die, back in the tunnel - instant aggro of the mobs. We wiped a few times and each time we respawn farther and farther back in the tunnel and those mobs in that big room kept aggroing us - as far back as where the Mage's Guild people are.

So to test the theory that something is wrong, we go to normal FG-I. This should be easy. First couple of mob groups were challenging but do-able. Get to the big cavern? Yeah, not happening.

1. The damage they do is too much once you reach a certain number of mobs.
2. Healer aggro is moronic now.
3. When we wiped, I went back into the tunnel BUT the mobs, instead of resetting, stayed at the edge of the pond, and then aggroed on me in the tunnel.

ZOS can let me know when they've fixed this cluster **** they've created and I'll go back to dungeoning - an activity I normally love.

CombatPrayer

Afafrenferr wrote: »

I haven't done a normal dungeon since the patch, but I can't imagine it's any more difficult than the vet I versions, which are all solo-able with a mediocre toon, and a little knowledge of how to be effective with said toon. I have to say though, I think the thing to do is find out what about your toon is lacking and work on improving those things. If you're having sustain issues, find out what you can do to make your resources last longer. If you're a healer and everyone is dropping dead left and right, either practice the mechanics, blocking, or look at resistances, or maybe the healer isn't using effective skills. Practice and your toon will get better. Upgrade gear and your toon will get better. That's kinda the point of these games. Progression over time. If you want some help, I'll be more than happy to kick it and run the content of your choosing any time I'm on. PC/NA @Afafrenfere. Add me and we'll kill some stuff.

Then why are you even posting? You are speaking with NO KNOWLEDGE or EXPERIENCE. If you solo on a crappy toon then you automatically should exclude yourself because most players cannot solo. People like you who think the game is too easy make it too hard for the majority because companies make the mistake of thinking you are in the majority. People like you probably come to this forum way to often where more causal players don't. They do other things with their free time and only come here when they have to. That is the problem. People don't like casuals but casuals make up a huge majority of the business and so ZOS needs to find a way to cater to both. They do that by making harder more challenging dungeons for those who want it and leaving the rest of them as they are. I don't dislike highly skilled players. I truly don't. But why should the whole of dungeons be changed for a small group which is admittedly small if you go by all the gripes against pugs you see in this forum on any give hour.

mrs_gibbs

My spouse and I are used to soloing normal dungeons. This is something fun we do to grind out gear, make money, etc. Instead of always having to group up for vet dungeons. In the past the two of us could knock out a dungeon in less than 15 minutes.

Last night we wiped over and over on normal Blackheart Haven (with both of us) and it sapped all the fun out of it. It is annoying to die repeatably on trash mobs. I'm all for making some content harder, but this is too much. Normal dungeons are supposed to be for people still learning to play, or for people just wanting to do a quick dungeon run. It's not supposed to be a 45 minute time sink.

It's not a l2p issue. We are nearly cp max, have end game gold gear, run trials and malestrom arena, etc. If we were having trouble, I know new people or lowbies are going to have a LOT of trouble. People are going to get frustrated and stop doing them.

idk

chloethefoxxub17_ESO wrote: »

l2p. if people want to do group content they should have not-*** builds. that means item sets and a skill bar that makes any sense. the scaling is super freaking generous too for low-level characters.

@chloethefoxxub17_ESO

To be fair, at level 20 there are many, most of the skills that are very useful that are not unlocked in addition to passives in the waiting. It does not matter much how the scaling works if the skills needed are not available. Without a good AoE will it's kinda hard to take down adds and mobs quickly.

Obviously, this compounds the issue when a lvl 20 stam thinks it's great to dos in heavy armor.

It's easy for us at max CP to think it's a l2p issue when it is far from that. Ofc, not saying l2p doesn't play a role with some.

Mic1007

chloethefoxxub17_ESO wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

chloethefoxxub17_ESO wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

chloethefoxxub17_ESO wrote: »

l2p. if people want to do group content they should have not-*** builds. that means item sets and a skill bar that makes any sense. the scaling is super freaking generous too for low-level characters.

It is a NORMAL dungeon. It's unlocked at level 10, for level 10 players.

then they can make level 10 gear or get someone to craft it for them. dunno why so many people want all game content to require 0 effort. just go back to questing if you dont want to make a good build.

@chloethefoxxub17_ESO Have you done a normal dungeon since yesterday? Preferably on a level 10 with level 10 gear? It changed substantially.

yeah i'm leveling a stamplar now. he's lv11 with lvl 10 training gear. its still easy.

With or without your CPs put in on that lowbie? I've noticed a spike in difficulty myself. It hasn't stopped me due to all my CPs, but I can see someone with little or no CPs having trouble in Normal Dungeons now.

code65536

As one of those people who's championed for more difficult dungeons, and who usually does vet dungeons instead of normal dungeons, I support the OP's sentiment.

Difficulty buffs should happen to vet dungeons, not normal ones. And some of the scaling of normal dungeons is a bit out of line, either as the result of unintended bugs or poor design.

1. Example 1: The health of the Fire Maw and Ash Titan in normal CoA2 are higher than what they used to be in pre-OT Vet CoA.
2. Example 2: There are reports of enemies hitting harder in normal vs. their vet counterparts.
3. Example 3: I did a run of nICP today (wanted to clear an old pledge off my books, most people I know were busy with new pledges, and there was no point in me doing it in vet since jewelry drops are broken and I already have tons of Warden heads... so I just PUGed it on normal), and I was dying more than I was in vICP. At first, I was going to chalk it up to me being in a PUG, but when I finally started to look at my death recaps, I was seeing attacks from mobs (not bosses!) that were hitting for nearly 10K and 2-shotting me. Why the hell am I see vMA-style damage in a normal dungeon?

I have the Necrotic Hoarvor pet, I have all the Hist dungeon skins, and I like challenging content... in vet mode. Whether it's a bug or something that was poorly-intended, something is definitely wrong with some of the normal modes that I've seen.

SodanTok

It is bugged right now. Stop discussing how you think normals should be, start complaining it is bugged.
At this moment, veteran dungeons are somewhat EASIER THAN NORMAL.
Normal enemies have ~50% HP of veteran, but ~150% DMG of veteran.

sadownik

Afafrenferr wrote: »

I haven't done a normal dungeon since the patch, but I can't imagine it's any more difficult than the vet I versions, which are all solo-able with a mediocre toon, and a little knowledge of how to be effective with said toon. I have to say though, I think the thing to do is find out what about your toon is lacking and work on improving those things. If you're having sustain issues, find out what you can do to make your resources last longer. If you're a healer and everyone is dropping dead left and right, either practice the mechanics, blocking, or look at resistances, or maybe the healer isn't using effective skills. Practice and your toon will get better. Upgrade gear and your toon will get better. That's kinda the point of these games. Progression over time. If you want some help, I'll be more than happy to kick it and run the content of your choosing any time I'm on. PC/NA @Afafrenfere. Add me and we'll kill some stuff.

How many cp's you have?

Ankael07

L2p knights are at it again, judging things before testing out themselves. Its a bug people relax. Theres no way they would double the damage of normal dungeon mobs up to a point where they hit harder than veteran ones. Im sure it'll be fixed soon.

MissBizz

Finn Plese come calm our fears and say "Sorry folks! Definitely a bug and we'll knock these normal dungeons down to normal levels of difficulty in an upcoming patch" (See? Even pre-wrote your post for you!)

daedalusAI

MissBizz wrote: »

Finn Plese come calm our fears and say "Sorry folks! Definitely a bug and we'll knock these normal dungeons down to normal levels of difficulty in an upcoming patch" (See? Even pre-wrote your post for you!)

As a returning player for not even 1 week and seeing how long it took to fix a simple launcher for the EU players I already don't expect anything in the days to come.

maxetro

I can confirm this, mobs in normal dungeons doing more dmg then mobs in veteran. It still possible to clear some normal dungeons solo, I did this in CoH I and Volenfell on my lvl 50 nighhtblade with 510+ cp (and i'm very bad player myself). But when I tried to do normal Elden Hollow II on my lvl 24 charachter with lvl 10-30 pugs, group was disbanded even before we could reach first boss, because we wiped over and over again on the second and third groups of trash mobs.