Crown Crates % fair warning!

Integral1900

On the plus side look at it this way, now we will know if a player is gulliable, has way to much cash, or like me has a gambling addiction, all we will need to do now is look for someone riding a camel that looks like it was plugged into the mains

TBONE_OG

Good to know.

Synozeer

_Chaos wrote: »

Wow wrote: »

anyone know what these player is doing?


i thought crown crates isnt in yet

@Synozeer you're famous Azoi

LOL, caught red handed!

Troneon

Pure scummy business model..

Wow

Synozeer wrote: »

_Chaos wrote: »

Wow wrote: »

anyone know what these player is doing?


i thought crown crates isnt in yet

@Synozeer you're famous Azoi

LOL, caught red handed!

What were you doing?

Danikat

wayfarerx wrote: »

Martan wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

In the real world, this is called gambling. You'll find things like this at casinos. However, the casino MUST disclose their odds, so the player can make an informed decision before playing. ZOS, and other gaming companies engaging in this sleazy practice do not, yet. I highly recommend contacting your State Attorney General (If you live in America) and talk to them about game companies engaging in unregulated gambling. Most don't even realize it's going on. If enough people complain, they'll hopefully crack down on this despicable practice.

At least when I go to a casino I know the odds, and I get free cocktails served by attractive people in skimpy outfits.


PS... The "math" is that you should be prepared to spend hundreds, if not thousands of real life dollars, pounds, yen, francs, marks, or whatever currency your country uses, in order to WIN an Apex reward. What you'll get almost every single solitary time is a bunch of consumable crap that you'd NEVER have spent real money on in this game. Don't get tricked into thinking you'll get that cool new item on the cheap. It's a sucker's bet.

You are not winning anything of real value so technically it is not gambling per definition.

The concept of "value" is entirely subjective. Splitting hairs or arguing semantics is just a diversionary tactic, Crown Crates as they appeared on PTS are a predatory gambling service and if they involved physical "rewards" they would be illegal almost everywhere in the world.

I believe the point Martan was making is that because there is no cash value it doesn't fall under the legal definition of gambling (in any relevant jurisdiction) and that's why it's legal.

According to the Terms of Service all the items in the game, including those in the crown store, are ZOS's intellectual property and we never own them. All we get when we buy the game is access to a service that involves their IP. Same when we buy crowns, legally they're not a currency and have no cash value.

And since there's no gambling involved in purchasing crowns it doesn't matter what's done with them afterwards, it doesn't require a gambling licence and doesn't have to abide by the rules for operating under a licence.

You're right that there are other kinds of value and that they can be highly subjective, but that's exactly why they're almost never covered by legislation. It's extremely hard to legislate something that's subjective. If one person says something has a huge amount of sentimental value (for example) and someone else says it never meant anything how do you determine what it's worth or what an appropriate punishment for damaging it should be?

Of course there are exceptions, for example there's something called Tree Protection Orders in the UK which give legal protection to trees which are considered especially attractive or significant (for example one was awarded to a yew tree in the carpark of my old flat on the basis that the building was called Yew Tree Court and therefore the tree was 'iconic') but it's a legal nightmare when they're challenged because there's not really any way to prove which 'side' is right.

Divinius

Integral1900 wrote: »

On the plus side look at it this way, now we will know if a player is gulliable, has way to much cash, or like me has a gambling addiction, all we will need to do now is look for someone riding a camel that looks like it was plugged into the mains

Pretty much this, exactly.

The sad thing is that if I ever see anyone on one of the apex mounts, I'm not going to be thinking "Wow, he was lucky! That's awesome! I'm so jealous of him!"

Instead, all I'm going to think is, "Wow... There's an idiot who spent way too much money on a stupid gambling system."

I'd actually be embarrassed to be seen on one of those mounts.

alexkdd99

Pomaikai wrote: »

In the real world, this is called gambling. You'll find things like this at casinos. However, the casino MUST disclose their odds, so the player can make an informed decision before playing. ZOS, and other gaming companies engaging in this sleazy practice do not, yet. I highly recommend contacting your State Attorney General (If you live in America) and talk to them about game companies engaging in unregulated gambling. Most don't even realize it's going on. If enough people complain, they'll hopefully crack down on this despicable practice.

At least when I go to a casino I know the odds, and I get free cocktails served by attractive people in skimpy outfits.


PS... The "math" is that you should be prepared to spend hundreds, if not thousands of real life dollars, pounds, yen, francs, marks, or whatever currency your country uses, in order to WIN an Apex reward. What you'll get almost every single solitary time is a bunch of consumable crap that you'd NEVER have spent real money on in this game. Don't get tricked into thinking you'll get that cool new item on the cheap. It's a sucker's bet.

The problem with your whole thing about gambling is in this instance you don't have the ability to earn real money.
That is the reason gaming companies do not fall under the same guidelines.

Just like an arcade where you win tickets. Like on those games where you spin the wheel and it randomly lands on a number in which you gain tickets. Now if you got money instead of tickets it would fall under the laws for gambling.

As it stands now their is no law against this as you can gain no money through buying these "lottery boxes".

So please don't call your state Rep or attorney general as that is wasting theirs and your time.



Edit: actually come to think of it, arcades would be considered gambling more so than these crown crates. As you technically get something of real value when you cash in tickets, the value is often very insignificant but still.

I would not hold my breath waiting for any government agency to intervene on such trivial matters, but then again the government, or atleast the us government is starting to seem more and more like a circus these days.

Divinius

alexkdd99 wrote: »

The problem with your whole thing about gambling is in this instance you don't have the ability to earn real money.
That is the reason gaming companies do not fall under the same guidelines.

Just like an arcade where you win tickets. Like on those games where you spin the wheel and it randomly lands on a number in which you gain tickets. Now if you got money instead of tickets it would fall under the laws for gambling.

As it stands now their is no law against this as you can gain no money through buying these "lottery boxes".

So please don't call your state Rep or attorney general as that is wasting theirs and your time.

This exactly. What ZOS is doing is perfectly legal.

Scummy, shady, and predatory, but perfectly legal.

Kova

Integral1900 wrote: »

On the plus side look at it this way, now we will know if a player is gulliable, has way to much cash, or like me has a gambling addiction, all we will need to do now is look for someone riding a camel that looks like it was plugged into the mains

Agreed. I'm an understanding lady, but this will make me think less of you as a person.

If you think being kicked out of group because of CP is petty, just wait till someone kicks you for being a gullable chump/financially expending jerk.

Danikat

Kova wrote: »

Integral1900 wrote: »

On the plus side look at it this way, now we will know if a player is gulliable, has way to much cash, or like me has a gambling addiction, all we will need to do now is look for someone riding a camel that looks like it was plugged into the mains

Agreed. I'm an understanding lady, but this will make me think less of you as a person.

If you think being kicked out of group because of CP is petty, just wait till someone kicks you for being a gullable chump/financially expending jerk.

This is another aspect which concerns me.

I have, and use, the clouded senche-leopard mount, palomino horse, evening dress, and a few other things which are in the crates (and others which might be in future crates).

I'm not going to stop using them because just like I don't care if anyone else likes them I don't care if anyone else doesn't like them because they're in the crates, but I do kind of wish there was a way to show how I got them so people can see I'm not a complete idiot.

Loralai_907

I'm not going to care if someone has a "retired" item. If they have a crown crate exclusive on the other hand, there is no way around that. Same thing with seeing someone opening crown crates. I'm not going to make a big deal about it or anything. But I am not going to be envious of the person at all.

Whatzituyah

mommadani907 wrote: »

I'm not going to care if someone has a "retired" item. If they have a crown crate exclusive on the other hand, there is no way around that. Same thing with seeing someone opening crown crates. I'm not going to make a big deal about it or anything. But I am not going to be envious of the person at all.

@mommadani907 So wait theres an animation for it? I would prefer not to see 1000 chests being opened in town. If you want a compromise there it is for me if they actually get introduced it would break my "immersion" per say.

newtinmpls

Dubhliam wrote: »

Meaning you will get a Collectible in every Crate, since they have 4 cards..

No.

Meaning you are LIKELY to get a collectible in every crate.

and if you anger RNGjesus, well, don't hold your breath.

Phinix1

Pomaikai wrote: »

In the real world, this is called gambling. You'll find things like this at casinos. However, the casino MUST disclose their odds, so the player can make an informed decision before playing. ZOS, and other gaming companies engaging in this sleazy practice do not, yet. I highly recommend contacting your State Attorney General (If you live in America) and talk to them about game companies engaging in unregulated gambling. Most don't even realize it's going on. If enough people complain, they'll hopefully crack down on this despicable practice.

As soon as they push this dirty betrayal of what has been a commendable B2P business model live, I plan to do exactly that.

I believe this push towards predatory addiction-peddling and gambling to milk "whales" with no willpower to be not only toxic for the future of ESO (Imagine when all the cool housing stuff is locked behind forced gambling away of your paycheck), but also morally and ethically dubious, perhaps even illegal.

Time will tell, but I for one plan to be VERY vocal about this to any authority that will listen, come what may.

EDIT: I still don't understand WHY they feel the need to do this. By all accounts, the game is doing well. This system is universally hated and potentially a very costly PR and legal mistake.

So why risk it? Why push this now when times are good? It makes zero sense to me.

Loralai_907

That hasn't been confirmed or denied yet. But it was asked what those people were doing seen opening a chest and that was not answered. Which led to me thinking oh man, if there is, hahaha, that could be....interesting. They did make a new animation for crafting bags, so why not with the crown crates they are so invested in? I hope they don't, but it could be another way to try and market and sell them - new players would see it and be curious about it which might lead to more sales. But they could very well not do any of that.

Whatzituyah

@mommadani907 Unless they explain the small chest with shiny light inside its confirmed for me anyway if they say nothing.

Sigtric

Danikat wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

Martan wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

In the real world, this is called gambling. You'll find things like this at casinos. However, the casino MUST disclose their odds, so the player can make an informed decision before playing. ZOS, and other gaming companies engaging in this sleazy practice do not, yet. I highly recommend contacting your State Attorney General (If you live in America) and talk to them about game companies engaging in unregulated gambling. Most don't even realize it's going on. If enough people complain, they'll hopefully crack down on this despicable practice.

At least when I go to a casino I know the odds, and I get free cocktails served by attractive people in skimpy outfits.


PS... The "math" is that you should be prepared to spend hundreds, if not thousands of real life dollars, pounds, yen, francs, marks, or whatever currency your country uses, in order to WIN an Apex reward. What you'll get almost every single solitary time is a bunch of consumable crap that you'd NEVER have spent real money on in this game. Don't get tricked into thinking you'll get that cool new item on the cheap. It's a sucker's bet.

You are not winning anything of real value so technically it is not gambling per definition.

The concept of "value" is entirely subjective. Splitting hairs or arguing semantics is just a diversionary tactic, Crown Crates as they appeared on PTS are a predatory gambling service and if they involved physical "rewards" they would be illegal almost everywhere in the world.

I believe the point Martan was making is that because there is no cash value it doesn't fall under the legal definition of gambling (in any relevant jurisdiction) and that's why it's legal.

According to the Terms of Service all the items in the game, including those in the crown store, are ZOS's intellectual property and we never own them. All we get when we buy the game is access to a service that involves their IP. Same when we buy crowns, legally they're not a currency and have no cash value.

And since there's no gambling involved in purchasing crowns it doesn't matter what's done with them afterwards, it doesn't require a gambling licence and doesn't have to abide by the rules for operating under a licence.

You're right that there are other kinds of value and that they can be highly subjective, but that's exactly why they're almost never covered by legislation. It's extremely hard to legislate something that's subjective. If one person says something has a huge amount of sentimental value (for example) and someone else says it never meant anything how do you determine what it's worth or what an appropriate punishment for damaging it should be?

Of course there are exceptions, for example there's something called Tree Protection Orders in the UK which give legal protection to trees which are considered especially attractive or significant (for example one was awarded to a yew tree in the carpark of my old flat on the basis that the building was called Yew Tree Court and therefore the tree was 'iconic') but it's a legal nightmare when they're challenged because there's not really any way to prove which 'side' is right.

Re: the part I bolded, pretty much this.

In order for Gambling Laws to be relevant a bet or wager on a game must take place, with tangible currency, with a tangible reward.

Regardless of what your personal feelings on the boxes are, if purchased you are just getting a box of random loot. It is not illegal, despite whether it is smart/scummy/whatever or not.

Katahdin

Ive been burned by RNG boxes in another game.

Not going to fall for it here.

They can take those boxes and put them where the sun dont shine.

wayfarerx

Sigtric wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

Martan wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

In the real world, this is called gambling. You'll find things like this at casinos. However, the casino MUST disclose their odds, so the player can make an informed decision before playing. ZOS, and other gaming companies engaging in this sleazy practice do not, yet. I highly recommend contacting your State Attorney General (If you live in America) and talk to them about game companies engaging in unregulated gambling. Most don't even realize it's going on. If enough people complain, they'll hopefully crack down on this despicable practice.

At least when I go to a casino I know the odds, and I get free cocktails served by attractive people in skimpy outfits.


PS... The "math" is that you should be prepared to spend hundreds, if not thousands of real life dollars, pounds, yen, francs, marks, or whatever currency your country uses, in order to WIN an Apex reward. What you'll get almost every single solitary time is a bunch of consumable crap that you'd NEVER have spent real money on in this game. Don't get tricked into thinking you'll get that cool new item on the cheap. It's a sucker's bet.

You are not winning anything of real value so technically it is not gambling per definition.

The concept of "value" is entirely subjective. Splitting hairs or arguing semantics is just a diversionary tactic, Crown Crates as they appeared on PTS are a predatory gambling service and if they involved physical "rewards" they would be illegal almost everywhere in the world.

I believe the point Martan was making is that because there is no cash value it doesn't fall under the legal definition of gambling (in any relevant jurisdiction) and that's why it's legal.

According to the Terms of Service all the items in the game, including those in the crown store, are ZOS's intellectual property and we never own them. All we get when we buy the game is access to a service that involves their IP. Same when we buy crowns, legally they're not a currency and have no cash value.

And since there's no gambling involved in purchasing crowns it doesn't matter what's done with them afterwards, it doesn't require a gambling licence and doesn't have to abide by the rules for operating under a licence.

You're right that there are other kinds of value and that they can be highly subjective, but that's exactly why they're almost never covered by legislation. It's extremely hard to legislate something that's subjective. If one person says something has a huge amount of sentimental value (for example) and someone else says it never meant anything how do you determine what it's worth or what an appropriate punishment for damaging it should be?

Of course there are exceptions, for example there's something called Tree Protection Orders in the UK which give legal protection to trees which are considered especially attractive or significant (for example one was awarded to a yew tree in the carpark of my old flat on the basis that the building was called Yew Tree Court and therefore the tree was 'iconic') but it's a legal nightmare when they're challenged because there's not really any way to prove which 'side' is right.

Re: the part I bolded, pretty much this.

In order for Gambling Laws to be relevant a bet or wager on a game must take place, with tangible currency, with a tangible reward.

Regardless of what your personal feelings on the boxes are, if purchased you are just getting a box of random loot. It is not illegal, despite whether it is smart/scummy/whatever or not.

I agree that they are not illegal. The specifics of our gambling laws allow these crates to be classified as a "service" that you spend imaginary currency on and thus skirt the regulations that real casinos must follow.

Conversely, they are just as exploitative as the scams that gambling regulations are there to prevent. They will cause harm, both to the quality of the community in this game as well as individuals with gambling addictions or poor impulse control. ZOS should be better than this.

Whatzituyah

wayfarerx wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

Martan wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

In the real world, this is called gambling. You'll find things like this at casinos. However, the casino MUST disclose their odds, so the player can make an informed decision before playing. ZOS, and other gaming companies engaging in this sleazy practice do not, yet. I highly recommend contacting your State Attorney General (If you live in America) and talk to them about game companies engaging in unregulated gambling. Most don't even realize it's going on. If enough people complain, they'll hopefully crack down on this despicable practice.

At least when I go to a casino I know the odds, and I get free cocktails served by attractive people in skimpy outfits.


PS... The "math" is that you should be prepared to spend hundreds, if not thousands of real life dollars, pounds, yen, francs, marks, or whatever currency your country uses, in order to WIN an Apex reward. What you'll get almost every single solitary time is a bunch of consumable crap that you'd NEVER have spent real money on in this game. Don't get tricked into thinking you'll get that cool new item on the cheap. It's a sucker's bet.

You are not winning anything of real value so technically it is not gambling per definition.

The concept of "value" is entirely subjective. Splitting hairs or arguing semantics is just a diversionary tactic, Crown Crates as they appeared on PTS are a predatory gambling service and if they involved physical "rewards" they would be illegal almost everywhere in the world.

I believe the point Martan was making is that because there is no cash value it doesn't fall under the legal definition of gambling (in any relevant jurisdiction) and that's why it's legal.

According to the Terms of Service all the items in the game, including those in the crown store, are ZOS's intellectual property and we never own them. All we get when we buy the game is access to a service that involves their IP. Same when we buy crowns, legally they're not a currency and have no cash value.

And since there's no gambling involved in purchasing crowns it doesn't matter what's done with them afterwards, it doesn't require a gambling licence and doesn't have to abide by the rules for operating under a licence.

You're right that there are other kinds of value and that they can be highly subjective, but that's exactly why they're almost never covered by legislation. It's extremely hard to legislate something that's subjective. If one person says something has a huge amount of sentimental value (for example) and someone else says it never meant anything how do you determine what it's worth or what an appropriate punishment for damaging it should be?

Of course there are exceptions, for example there's something called Tree Protection Orders in the UK which give legal protection to trees which are considered especially attractive or significant (for example one was awarded to a yew tree in the carpark of my old flat on the basis that the building was called Yew Tree Court and therefore the tree was 'iconic') but it's a legal nightmare when they're challenged because there's not really any way to prove which 'side' is right.

Re: the part I bolded, pretty much this.

In order for Gambling Laws to be relevant a bet or wager on a game must take place, with tangible currency, with a tangible reward.

Regardless of what your personal feelings on the boxes are, if purchased you are just getting a box of random loot. It is not illegal, despite whether it is smart/scummy/whatever or not.

I agree that they are not illegal. The specifics of our gambling laws allow these crates to be classified as a "service" that you spend imaginary currency on and thus skirt the regulations that real casinos must follow.

Conversely, they are just as exploitative as the scams that gambling regulations are there to prevent. They will cause harm, both to the quality of the community in this game as well as individuals with gambling addictions or poor impulse control. ZOS should be better than this.

I really think this is the truth and while ZOS is getting money its in an exploitable way of how our minds work.

Phinix1

Sigtric wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

I believe the point Martan was making is that because there is no cash value it doesn't fall under the legal definition of gambling (in any relevant jurisdiction) and that's why it's legal.

Re: the part I bolded, pretty much this.

In order for Gambling Laws to be relevant a bet or wager on a game must take place, with tangible currency, with a tangible reward.

Regardless of what your personal feelings on the boxes are, if purchased you are just getting a box of random loot. It is not illegal, despite whether it is smart/scummy/whatever or not.

I believe this is factually inaccurate. There IS real cash value involved. You have to buy Crown tokens with real cash, and then use those to gamble.

This is the same as casinos where you have to buy CHIPS with real money, then use those to gamble.

If the laws governing posting of odds and informed consent as well as age limits and gambling licensing apply to buying chips to gamble, then ZOS claiming "well we "own" our chips so they are somehow mysteriously different than any other gambling chip" is just not going to cut it in a court of law.

"Somehow mysteriously different" is not a defense.

I am sure ZOS has lots of legal types pouring over this cash grab, but IMHO they should ditch this before they do irreparable damage to their public image and potentially incur unwanted legal attention.

EDIT: Also, this is the sort of underhanded direction that causes top talent to leave companies on moral ground. Like when Yahoo's top security chief went over to Facebook over the complicite email surveillance scandal.

I don't think this will be good for the company on ANY front.

So, WHY insist on doing it. Is this someone's personal hill to die for or something?

Danikat

Wow wrote: »

anyone know what these player is doing?


i thought crown crates isnt in yet

I just asked someone in-game who I saw using that animation and he said he was looking at the crown store.

Also I noticed crown crates have been added to the list of UI options under Controls and the default is F3 but pushing that didn't do anything for me. So it looks like they're not in the game yet.

code65536

Crown store idle animation is someone bending down over a chest.

Crown crate idle animation is someone shuffling through a deck of cards while standing.

Whatzituyah

code65536 wrote: »

Crown store idle animation is someone bending down over a chest.

Crown crate idle animation is someone shuffling through a deck of cards while standing.

Shuffling through a deck of cards? Well atleast its realistic to think they are playing go fish.

Vrath

wayfarerx wrote: »

Martan wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

In the real world, this is called gambling. You'll find things like this at casinos. However, the casino MUST disclose their odds, so the player can make an informed decision before playing. ZOS, and other gaming companies engaging in this sleazy practice do not, yet. I highly recommend contacting your State Attorney General (If you live in America) and talk to them about game companies engaging in unregulated gambling. Most don't even realize it's going on. If enough people complain, they'll hopefully crack down on this despicable practice.

At least when I go to a casino I know the odds, and I get free cocktails served by attractive people in skimpy outfits.


PS... The "math" is that you should be prepared to spend hundreds, if not thousands of real life dollars, pounds, yen, francs, marks, or whatever currency your country uses, in order to WIN an Apex reward. What you'll get almost every single solitary time is a bunch of consumable crap that you'd NEVER have spent real money on in this game. Don't get tricked into thinking you'll get that cool new item on the cheap. It's a sucker's bet.

You are not winning anything of real value so technically it is not gambling per definition.

The concept of "value" is entirely subjective. Splitting hairs or arguing semantics is just a diversionary tactic, Crown Crates as they appeared on PTS are a predatory gambling service and if they involved physical "rewards" they would be illegal almost everywhere in the world.

It is funny to hear you say another person's point is arguing semantics considering that is generally all you do with your key word posts in any crown crate thread 'predatory', 'gambling' ect. Along with your over reaction theater; the Attorney General come on, this is SJW 101 work right here.

It is a grab bag system you always get something in return might be cool might be ***. The fact is someone will win something they value for a low cost and others will never get it just like in every other game that has these types of RNG boxes from mobile to MMOs.

waterfairy

It's like flushing $5 down the toilet over and over again until the toilet backs up and you're rewarded with a soggy pile of crappy money.

Elsonso

Cool. 70 crates for an Apex mount? What was the Gem price for one of those things? How many crates does someone have to open before they get enough Gems to just buy the silly thing?

Dubhliam

lordrichter wrote: »

Cool. 70 crates for an Apex mount? What was the Gem price for one of those things? How many crates does someone have to open before they get enough Gems to just buy the silly thing?

It's actually on average 63 Crates for an Apex mount. I miscalculated, 70 crates would be if the chance to get a collectible would be 25% instead of 28,16%

The Gem price (at least on PTS) were 400 for one.

Dubhliam

newtinmpls wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Meaning you will get a Collectible in every Crate, since they have 4 cards..

No.

Meaning you are LIKELY to get a collectible in every crate.

and if you anger RNGjesus, well, don't hold your breath.

I have not personally opened any Crate without at least one collectible inside.
I have heard others say they did open one such a Crate (not more than 1 in 13), but those were all initial feedback when the Crates just got to the PTS.
I believe that they made every Crate drop at least one Collectible in an further patch.