Penalty for dying : What about a CD on soulgems ?

kuro-dono

vamp_emily wrote: »

I say ZOS should concentrate on the core problem in most campaigns.. POPULATION BALANCE.

You guys talking about giving people penalty for dying.. shame on you.

Example:

6 players in one faction vs 30 players. 30 players come in and destroy the only 6 players on the faction and you want to penalize them for dying?

I don't know how many times I have seen it over and over a poplock vs 1 bar, or a poplock vs 2 bars. Or 1 bar vs a poplick and 3 bars.

ZOS needs to fix the real problems in this game.. before fixing issues as small as 'omg this guy rezzed after I killed him'.

if you knew who this guy MLRPZ is you would understand his story, they sad that eventually their ap farming gets stopped when finally some folks with brain come and make it stop or they get overwhelmed. They are asking for trouble by that running around rocks/stones/hills floors, stacking aoe bombs and coming in choo choo instead of pew pew pew. All these nerfs to the baddies they fight against would eventually cause it that there would be soon nobody for them to farm when ppl get tired of it. Azura pc eu where most folks want to be just casuals instead of aoe bombers or elites it would be soon enough dead campaign when there is no way to fight them off when all are in flash dead. Here we got covenant elites aswell and some ebons, but they all pretty much avoid each other and focus farm the n00bs.

Yes, obvious solution is to manup getgud and get elite, but something what ppl dont seem to get? loads of folks just want that casual relaxing fighting where you die and kill and capture keeps possibly without all that ts hassle.

Yesterday i was forced to change from my pve stamina templar to my new raising sun ala hyprid negate bot and call couple other negate user to fight them off, after that i feel so empty. Just want to have casual pvp/ava instead of that high end super e peen action where everything is micromanaged.

I have offered previously couple reasonable solution to this, but ofc ppl are unhappy, nothing is enough.

bubbygink

Add CD on rez (once dead, you have to stay dead at least 1 minute for example)

I don't know why people keep calling this a "penalty for dying." Implementing OP's suggestion would not create any penalty for dying (other than, you know, actually having died). As OP already said, you would still be able to instantly rez at owned keeps without any cooldown. Nobody has to sit there and stay dead for a period of time, you can rez immediately without penalty.

The only thing OP's suggestion does is prevent people from dying and then popping right back up in the same spot two seconds later and continue fighting. I mean dying has to have some effect right? What is the point of even killing anybody if they can be immediately rezzed on the spot within seconds like they never even died?

To those saying "just stop them from rezzing," you clearly do not run solo or in small groups. If a group of 5 is fighting 15 and takes 2/15 out it is virtually impossible to prevent them from being rezzed. You can't just jump into a group of 13 people to bash over and over.

IxSTALKERxI

Add CD on rez (once dead, you have to stay dead at least 1 minute for example)

Even a 30 second timer after dieing before being able to be ressed by a soul gem would be an improvement. I don't really see a downside to it at all. If you die just wait 30 seconds and analyse your death recap while waiting for your friend to rez you, or you can choose to instantly respawn at a keep / camp if you don't wish to wait. At least then the enemy has a chance to win the fight.

If 30 people kill 6 people so easily, the fact that they wern't able to rez someone because of a 30second cooldown isn't going to make a difference. Sounds like they are going to lose the fight either way.

I dunno, I guess only a minority of the population has experienced what the OP is talking about.

Manoekin

other option (please share)

vamp_emily wrote: »

I say ZOS should concentrate on the core problem in most campaigns.. POPULATION BALANCE.

You guys talking about giving people penalty for dying.. shame on you.

Example:

6 players in one faction vs 30 players. 30 players come in and destroy the only 6 players on the faction and you want to penalize them for dying?

I don't know how many times I have seen it over and over a poplock vs 1 bar, or a poplock vs 2 bars. Or 1 bar vs a poplick and 3 bars.

ZOS needs to fix the real problems in this game.. before fixing issues as small as 'omg this guy rezzed after I killed him'.

You don't understand the issue being discussed. 6 people being swarmed by 30 in about 99% of situations aren't going to be able to get off soul gem resses in any case. The issue becomes when the 6 people are able to hold their own and they kill half of the 30, but by the time they kill the other half the first half is already ressed. This repeats in a cycle until the 6 people either leave the area out of boredom or get overwhelmed. There's videos of this somewhere.

MLRPZ

kuro-dono wrote: »

vamp_emily wrote: »

I say ZOS should concentrate on the core problem in most campaigns.. POPULATION BALANCE.

You guys talking about giving people penalty for dying.. shame on you.

Example:

6 players in one faction vs 30 players. 30 players come in and destroy the only 6 players on the faction and you want to penalize them for dying?

I don't know how many times I have seen it over and over a poplock vs 1 bar, or a poplock vs 2 bars. Or 1 bar vs a poplick and 3 bars.

ZOS needs to fix the real problems in this game.. before fixing issues as small as 'omg this guy rezzed after I killed him'.

if you knew who this guy MLRPZ is you would understand his story, they sad that eventually their ap farming gets stopped when finally some folks with brain come and make it stop or they get overwhelmed. They are asking for trouble by that running around rocks/stones/hills floors, stacking aoe bombs and coming in choo choo instead of pew pew pew. All these nerfs to the baddies they fight against would eventually cause it that there would be soon nobody for them to farm when ppl get tired of it. Azura pc eu where most folks want to be just casuals instead of aoe bombers or elites it would be soon enough dead campaign when there is no way to fight them off when all are in flash dead. Here we got covenant elites aswell and some ebons, but they all pretty much avoid each other and focus farm the n00bs.

Yes, obvious solution is to manup getgud and get elite, but something what ppl dont seem to get? loads of folks just want that casual relaxing fighting where you die and kill and capture keeps possibly without all that ts hassle.

Yesterday i was forced to change from my pve stamina templar to my new raising sun ala hyprid negate bot and call couple other negate user to fight them off, after that i feel so empty. Just want to have casual pvp/ava instead of that high end super e peen action where everything is micromanaged.

I have offered previously couple reasonable solution to this, but ofc ppl are unhappy, nothing is enough.

amount of lol : over 9000
Everyone plays the way he/she wants. it works both for you and for us. If we want to "aoe bomb" your zerg, we are free to do so

I'm not sad about anything, I just think it's time for ZOS to give small groups some tools to fight against people like you

Apherius

Leave it as it is

hi man , @kharapuce already create a post about this , but i agree , it's not very easy to find a specific discussion on the English forum

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/291311/what-about-adding-some-change-to-the-ressurection#latest

Now my opinion : Nop , i don't agree with When i die , i love respawn at my fort instantly , If they add this ... this would be a Wave of teebag on Dead player's ... and i'm sure that nobody want see Ennemies players ass when they are dead ... with a little CD of 1 min on the top of the screen .

IxSTALKERxI

Add CD on rez (once dead, you have to stay dead at least 1 minute for example)

Apherius wrote: »

hi man , @kharapuce already create a post about this , but i agree , it's not very easy to find a specific discussion on the English forum

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/291311/what-about-adding-some-change-to-the-ressurection#latest

Now my opinion : Nop , i don't agree with When i die , i love respawn at my fort instantly , If they add this ... this would be a Wave of teebag on Dead player's ... and i'm sure that nobody want see Ennemies players ass when they are dead ... with a little CD of 1 min on the top of the screen .

You are more than welcome to respawn at your fort instantly. The OP is specifically talking about soul gem resurrections.

bebynnag

Leave it as it is

adding a cool down may weaken large groups, however it would place small groups at an even bigger disadvantage than they currently are when outnumbered 10 to 1!

MLRPZ

Hm you got me wrong, I'm not asking for a CD on rez at keep, but on soulgem. please read again =/
And yes I know Khara made a thread about it but imo it was on the wrong section of the forum so I made a new one

Sanct16

Add CD on rez (once dead, you have to stay dead at least 1 minute for example)

Apherius wrote: »

hi man , @kharapuce already create a post about this , but i agree , it's not very easy to find a specific discussion on the English forum

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/291311/what-about-adding-some-change-to-the-ressurection#latest

Now my opinion : Nop , i don't agree with When i die , i love respawn at my fort instantly , If they add this ... this would be a Wave of teebag on Dead player's ... and i'm sure that nobody want see Ennemies players ass when they are dead ... with a little CD of 1 min on the top of the screen .

Reading is hard, right? Soulgems =!= respawning at a keep.

Apherius

Leave it as it is

MLRPZ wrote: »

Hm you got me wrong, I'm not asking for a CD on rez at keep, but on soulgem. please read again =/
And yes I know Khara made a thread about it but imo it was on the wrong section of the forum so I made a new one

oh ok ^^" this changes everythings , but i stay skeptical ... so .. no opinion for me .

Apherius

Leave it as it is

Sanct16 wrote: »

Soulgem rezzes is

Apherius wrote: »

hi man , @kharapuce already create a post about this , but i agree , it's not very easy to find a specific discussion on the English forum

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/291311/what-about-adding-some-change-to-the-ressurection#latest

Now my opinion : Nop , i don't agree with When i die , i love respawn at my fort instantly , If they add this ... this would be a Wave of teebag on Dead player's ... and i'm sure that nobody want see Ennemies players ass when they are dead ... with a little CD of 1 min on the top of the screen .

Reading is hard, right? Soulgems =!= respawning at a keep.

sorry , my last pvp party was 4 month ago i mixed this with the current IC system .

IxSTALKERxI

Add CD on rez (once dead, you have to stay dead at least 1 minute for example)

Manoekin wrote: »

There's videos of this somewhere.

Remember this? This video was from before forward camps were reintroduced. The keep was flagged and the fight went on for 14 minutes because the enemy kept rezzing using soul gems lol. There are probably better examples but this is the only one I have on hand atm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A_1jft5x0Q

Manoekin

other option (please share)

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

There's videos of this somewhere.

Remember this? This video was from before forward camps were reintroduced. The keep was flagged and the fight went on for 14 minutes because the enemy kept rezzing using soul gems lol. There are probably better examples but this is the only one I have on hand atm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A_1jft5x0Q

I swore myself or Manny had a good one at Nikel that I can't find.

Found it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTBoIp50s3c

He's not listing it for some reason.

RinaldoGandolphi

Im against this idea, but not for the reasons one may think.

I think its a good idea that there should be a cooldown on rezing, it should have been implemented from the get go, but...its too late to do that now.

the game has worked this way for so long its applied behavior at this point. Making a change like this, at this point in the games life, is akin to adding a barrier to entry, and that barrier will drive people away from the game at a time when PC population simply can't afford to lose anymore players.

Making a change like this will make those casuals everyone likes to fight simply quit playing. Im willing to live rezzing as it is now to ensure we keep a pvp population.

This change should have been put into the game 2 years ago, but its too late to make such a change now...i know of over 90 people that quit and haven't been back since they took away camps...i just recently took them off my friends list because they are not coming back...and thats just myself....a change like this will just drive more people away...no one wants to play horse simulator.

when the game has some semblance of balanced, and is not full of double and triple RNG procs and absurd stealth damage mechanics, then we can talk about making people play more horse simulator...until then...im against anything that will drive more people away...we need to make a more welcoming environment and encourage and get more people to play, not put up more barriers to drive people away...just my 2 cent...YMMV

Joy_Division

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

The current system is one of the worst I'm aware of.
Together with being able to place camps nearly everywhere, everyone is able to using an unlimited amount of soul gems, so it's close to impossible to clear an area if your own group is significantly smaller compared to the enemy one.
Rezzing in this game is way too fast and comes without any penalty.
Imagine you clear the top of a keep, and while you're on the way down they already start rezzing each other. They got enough people to do so. You cleared the flag just to see the group you recently killed standing on top. You go to the top and story repeats itself. As a small group you simply don't got the manpower to block them permanently from rezzing.

Don't see any reason why people are against a penalty or at least a limitation.

Something like:
- after you use a soul gem you can't use an another one for a minute, just like a cooldown
- this cooldown should also start for the person who got rezzed

This prevents that a single survivor is able to bring back his whole raid in the middle of a keep.

Yep I agree. It would be a change that actually benefits the outnumbered side for once. Here are examples of what a fight is like with and without a cooldown systems:

Sad story without a cooldown system.

Let's say i'm in an 8 man group with Mojican and we are alone defending a keep against 40 EP. We manage to kill 20 of the 40 EP, but in the process Mojican dies for some reason or another, but no need to worry, because there is no rez penalty we are able to rez him again. We then go to the other side of the keep and wipe the remaining 20 players. When we turn around we see the first 20 we killed are alive again, so we go and kill them again, we turn around and the other 20 are alive again and another 20 reinforcements have arrived from nikel. Now there are 3 different groups of 20 that keep rezzing... etc. Eventually the whole group gets overwhelmed as we are unable to kill faster then they can rez and don't have the man power to camp bodies and we all die.

Same story with a cooldown system.

Let's say i'm in an 8 man group with Mojican and we are a lone defending a keep against 40 EP.
Mojican dies for some reason or another and I am unable to rez him for a whole minute. What a tragedy! Despite this huge loss to our group, we still managed to kill 10 of the 30 EP, which will be unable to rez for a whole minute either. Not needing to camp bodies, we continue to push on and defeat another 10 EP on the other side of the keep. One minute has now passed and we go back and rez Mojican but the first initial 10 EP have rezed, bringing the total back to 20. With our added strength we are able to wipe the remaining 20 EP and the battle is won!


TL;DR: It's more beneficial to sacrifice a Mojican for a whole minute than have a large enemy force continually rez with no penalty. @manny254

I think the rezzing system actually helps outnumbered keep defenders more times than you think.

If the 8 of you are defending bleakers, the only way you can possibly get back into the fight is if you rez. I'm not exactly sure why these 40 EP only are managing to kill Mojican while the other 7 of you manage to kill all of them, but let's assume some of the EP there are halfway decent players and manage to kill 5 of you while you kill 30 of them. Now instead of you 7 vs. 0 EP (your scenario) it's more like there are 3 of you vs 10 EP. The only way you are keeping that keep is if you rez and you are going to have to rez multiple times. Those EP, or at least some of them, are going to get a camp up and come immediately back.

When defending outposts against hordes of enemies, sometimes fast rezes are the only opportunity for an isolated and outnumbered force to hold onto them because the attackers are in a much better position to get reinforcements without relying on rezzing. If I can only rez 1 person a minute, and there are 10 dead defenders around me in an already surrounded keep with a horde of angry attackers outside, then the battle is already lost.

Derra

other option (please share)

From my experience soulgem rezzes help outnumbered ppl (because the masses seem to forget how to bash or think someone else will) while forward camps help zergs more.

I still think camps have to go again. They promote static fights which lead to lag more than anything else.

ToRelax

Add CD on rez (once dead, you have to stay dead at least 1 minute for example)

Joy_Division wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

The current system is one of the worst I'm aware of.
Together with being able to place camps nearly everywhere, everyone is able to using an unlimited amount of soul gems, so it's close to impossible to clear an area if your own group is significantly smaller compared to the enemy one.
Rezzing in this game is way too fast and comes without any penalty.
Imagine you clear the top of a keep, and while you're on the way down they already start rezzing each other. They got enough people to do so. You cleared the flag just to see the group you recently killed standing on top. You go to the top and story repeats itself. As a small group you simply don't got the manpower to block them permanently from rezzing.

Don't see any reason why people are against a penalty or at least a limitation.

Something like:
- after you use a soul gem you can't use an another one for a minute, just like a cooldown
- this cooldown should also start for the person who got rezzed

This prevents that a single survivor is able to bring back his whole raid in the middle of a keep.

Yep I agree. It would be a change that actually benefits the outnumbered side for once. Here are examples of what a fight is like with and without a cooldown systems:

Sad story without a cooldown system.

Let's say i'm in an 8 man group with Mojican and we are alone defending a keep against 40 EP. We manage to kill 20 of the 40 EP, but in the process Mojican dies for some reason or another, but no need to worry, because there is no rez penalty we are able to rez him again. We then go to the other side of the keep and wipe the remaining 20 players. When we turn around we see the first 20 we killed are alive again, so we go and kill them again, we turn around and the other 20 are alive again and another 20 reinforcements have arrived from nikel. Now there are 3 different groups of 20 that keep rezzing... etc. Eventually the whole group gets overwhelmed as we are unable to kill faster then they can rez and don't have the man power to camp bodies and we all die.

Same story with a cooldown system.

Let's say i'm in an 8 man group with Mojican and we are a lone defending a keep against 40 EP.
Mojican dies for some reason or another and I am unable to rez him for a whole minute. What a tragedy! Despite this huge loss to our group, we still managed to kill 10 of the 30 EP, which will be unable to rez for a whole minute either. Not needing to camp bodies, we continue to push on and defeat another 10 EP on the other side of the keep. One minute has now passed and we go back and rez Mojican but the first initial 10 EP have rezed, bringing the total back to 20. With our added strength we are able to wipe the remaining 20 EP and the battle is won!


TL;DR: It's more beneficial to sacrifice a Mojican for a whole minute than have a large enemy force continually rez with no penalty. @manny254

I think the rezzing system actually helps outnumbered keep defenders more times than you think.

If the 8 of you are defending bleakers, the only way you can possibly get back into the fight is if you rez. I'm not exactly sure why these 40 EP only are managing to kill Mojican while the other 7 of you manage to kill all of them, but let's assume some of the EP there are halfway decent players and manage to kill 5 of you while you kill 30 of them. Now instead of you 7 vs. 0 EP (your scenario) it's more like there are 3 of you vs 10 EP. The only way you are keeping that keep is if you rez and you are going to have to rez multiple times. Those EP, or at least some of them, are going to get a camp up and come immediately back.

When defending outposts against hordes of enemies, sometimes fast rezes are the only opportunity for an isolated and outnumbered force to hold onto them because the attackers are in a much better position to get reinforcements without relying on rezzing. If I can only rez 1 person a minute, and there are 10 dead defenders around me in an already surrounded keep with a horde of angry attackers outside, then the battle is already lost.

One can play extra careful after being rezzed, when I die multiple times in a prolonged fight, I usually could have easily avoided that by playing it safe.

Derra wrote: »

From my experience soulgem rezzes help outnumbered ppl (because the masses seem to forget how to bash or think someone else will) while forward camps help zergs more.

I still think camps have to go again. They promote static fights which lead to lag more than anything else.

Tbh, idk how fights would play out neither soulgem rez nor camps, and neither side having a close respawn, so I can't be sure what kind of groups they help the most. In general I could see the appeal in that, although it won't work out well with the rng burst and stealth mechanics in this game.

MLRPZ

Well, everything in this game is in favor of those who have the largest numbers anyway

Docmandu

MLRPZ wrote: »

Well, everything in this game is in favor of those who have the largest numbers anyway

I'm pretty sure the AP farm sessions you guys do daily work just fine... and those Forward Camps seem to favor the pre-made aoe ball just fine.

pre-made > bunch of randoms / pugs / zerg surfers

Heck why complain about soulgems, it's more individuals to swallow with the ball. More AP for you guys.

LrdRahvin

I didn't vote because there was no option for: Everyone besides the op should have no death penalty at all; OP should have perma-death when he dies and have to re-roll.

MLRPZ

you're so fun, I laughed

Magicka_DK

Leave it as it is

Nah

Valencer

Docmandu wrote: »

MLRPZ wrote: »

Well, everything in this game is in favor of those who have the largest numbers anyway

I'm pretty sure the AP farm sessions you guys do daily work just fine... and those Forward Camps seem to favor the pre-made aoe ball just fine.

pre-made > bunch of randoms / pugs / zerg surfers

Heck why complain about soulgems, it's more individuals to swallow with the ball. More AP for you guys.

I'm reading this and I honestly wonder if you realise how much effort has to be put into a solid guild group nowadays.

The odds are greatly stacked against organised groups right now. Even more so in busy campaigns like trueflame where you'll regularly be fighting alliance swarms of 40+.

Jam

Add CD on rez (once dead, you have to stay dead at least 1 minute for example)

Docmandu wrote: »

MLRPZ wrote: »

Well, everything in this game is in favor of those who have the largest numbers anyway

I'm pretty sure the AP farm sessions you guys do daily work just fine... and those Forward Camps seem to favor the pre-made aoe ball just fine.

pre-made > bunch of randoms / pugs / zerg surfers

Heck why complain about soulgems, it's more individuals to swallow with the ball. More AP for you guys.

Before AP, we want descent fight. You can't blame us because we earn a lot AP for our action. But to be honest, we prefer to be able to win a fight instead of never finish an action because people get rezzed indefinitely.

Every pugs in this game are so mad about organized guild... It's funny, aren't we playing to a MMO ?

IxSTALKERxI

Add CD on rez (once dead, you have to stay dead at least 1 minute for example)

Ok how about this?

-When you resurrect an ally using a soul gem, you have a 10 second cool down before you can resurrect another ally with a soul gem.

-When you get resurrected by an ally, you are unable to resurrect someone until you have been alive for 10 seconds.


So basically what this prevents is 1 person starting a chain resurrection on 30 dead players in a matter of seconds. Some of you raised the point that you want to jump back into the action so I think 10 seconds between rezzing people to prevent chain resurrections is fair, 10 seconds isn't much at all. But if you scale that up to a scale of 30 players being resurrected, it can add up. It will at least buy a smaller group an extra 30 seconds - 1 minute to win the fight, which is all the OP is asking for.

RebornV3x

other option (please share)

There should be no death penalty for dying in dungeons, Trials or PVP but in open world PVE you should get a severe death penalty like lose exp or gold lol yeah maybe not but still there should be a stiff penalty for dying in open world PVE(outside of duels)

Docmandu

Jam wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

MLRPZ wrote: »

Well, everything in this game is in favor of those who have the largest numbers anyway

I'm pretty sure the AP farm sessions you guys do daily work just fine... and those Forward Camps seem to favor the pre-made aoe ball just fine.

pre-made > bunch of randoms / pugs / zerg surfers

Heck why complain about soulgems, it's more individuals to swallow with the ball. More AP for you guys.

Before AP, we want descent fight. You can't blame us because we earn a lot AP for our action. But to be honest, we prefer to be able to win a fight instead of never finish an action because people get rezzed indefinitely.

Every pugs in this game are so mad about organized guild... It's funny, aren't we playing to a MMO ?

A CD on a soulgem isn't going to change any of this. Since the walk from a keep to the aoe ball doesn't take all that long.. and if it would, the masses would also employ Forward Camps.

I get your point, but this certainly won't change anything.

Problem is that there's only ever 2 spots in Cyrodiil with action.. and nobody / no groups roam about, so you will never find fights anywhere else... unless you get a couple of guilds to start roaming around... like the 8v8 "scene" in daoc. Although I doubt anything like that will ever work in ESO.. group v group is hardly skillful in this game.. with "smart" heals going to wrong people and range meaning nothing with all the gap closers, I really can't see this provide much skillful group v group.

Valen_Byte

Leave it as it is

MLRPZ wrote: »

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Wow this is a first lol

NERF SOUL GEMS lmao

No, just kill the guy doing all the resing...not that hard.

You do fight on the zerg side right ?

I don't think you ever experiment to kill 2 groups of 24 people as a 12 man group in an outpost.

Could you rephrase the question? No idea what you are trying to say here. If you are asking if I have ever ran in a small group, then yes. Have I lead a zerg? You betcha. Have I held off a zerg at an outpost with only a few people because we understand the importance of rezing each other? Mhmm. What is your point?

Solariken

other option (please share)

It might be cool to give a resurrected player a "resurrection sickness" debuff for maybe 30 seconds, where ALL stats/regen and healing received are reduced by 50%. This could be added into the Battle Spirit package while in Cyrodiil.

Edit: killing a person with rez sickness should obviously be worth 0 AP.