Why I can no longer enjoy the game.

Ffastyl

Today I have cancelled my ESO+ subscription.

When it runs out I will be leaving ESO.


I started TES with Oblivion, for 4 years off and on, played for only a month in Skyrim, and continued to ESO a month after its initial release in 2014. I thought I would stick to it for years or decades, out of brand loyalty and the expectation of abundant content. As of today it has been 2 years and 4 months since I started. I know there are nooks overlooked and facts to debate, that there is content left for me to experience, but for a combat-centric game, I can no longer enjoy the combat. There is a low skill ceiling and I have been brushing against it for a long time.

The original combat system in 2014 was balanced around the notion players would use primarily magicka and supplement class skills with stamina consuming weapon skills all while maintaining both resource pools to keep HP up. It employed soft caps to reduce min-maxing, to make statistical catch-up easy and imbalancing stats difficult without compromising other stats. The combat system forced players into a battlemage "class;" they could be a spellsword, crusader, paladin, sorcerer, mage or nightblade, but not a thief or warrior who abstained from magics. Within that spectrum it was balanced. With fine tuning it could even be well balanced.

Update 6 gave it that fine tuning, making warriors and thieves viable, but it also changed a core aspect of the combat system: soft cap removal. With uncapped stats and linear scaling, the min-maxed builds became far stronger. Other flaws in the system such as healing and damage linked to the same stat became exacerbated by cap removal; PvE became mind numbing; PvP became Monster v Monster with no place for mortals, and ultimately builds without dumped stats became trash. Update 7 introduced sets bolstering min-maxers: Agility and Willpower. The difference between Epic and Legendary items was also increased. This was the update I first wavered about remaining in ESO. For once combat was frustrating rather than fun.

The stat gap between players expanded. Numbers trump skill -- stats determine a victory moreso than player input. And the Devs responded by balancing content around these obscene numbers and the DLC dungeons and Trials were released. But overworld content still had to be designed around non min-maxed characters; the result is a stark difference in difficulty between normal and veteran content. PvP builds became about exploiting the design flaws in the combat system: stacking damage, stacking shields, stacking DoTs, stacking resources, stacking AoE... HP used to move predictably and slowly. Like in other games, the health bar was indicator of how well you were performing against your opponent, not unlike a scoreboard in CoD or Battlefield. With uncapped, min-maxed stats, HP "ping pongs" -- players can recover from low to full health in a single heal or HoT and near instantaneous kills are also possible. Fights between players are either over briefly or end in stalemate. A minority of resolved conflicts are drawn out enough to be enjoyable. The difference between players used to be the skills on their bars, not the stats on their characters.


What would bring me back?
Minimize the stat gap or overhaul the combat system. Tweaking and fine tuning will not address the issues plaguing the system's core.

Reduce the bonus stats granted by sets, buffs and passives, increase the base values of stats, change how abilities scale, or re-implement caps.

Here is an idea I drafted for re-implemented caps in the thread How would you fix the game imbalance between Stamina and Magicka?

Ffastyl wrote: »

The abilities were designed for a range of numbers currently long surpassed. Taking into account the ~10x multiplier on numbers from Update 6, the average competitive player has twice the stats of such players a year ago. ~200 weapon damage was endgame in 1.5, or ~2000 now. A DPS currently has ~4000 weapon damage either with or without the aid of buffs. There is also an inherent flaw in the current system that arose with the power creep: damage and healing derived from the same stats.

What would I do?

Add progressive soft caps to all stats and adjust how two stats in particular interact with the game at large (spell and weapon damage).

Spell and Weapon Damage

Since I mentioned spell and weapon damage explicitly first, let's cover them first. Spell damage should be changed to the stat that all healing is derived from and weapon damage the stat all damage is derived from, max resources maintaining the same influence on ability power as now. The stats will likely be renamed to fit their new roles (i.e. Heal Power and Attack Power), but it will divide damage from healing.

This change assists hybrid resource builds as only one stat need be invested in for either damage or healing. Someone who wants to be a jack of all trades will still need Pelinal's Aptitude to have both decent healing and damage, but a spellsword can equip Hunding's Rage and have both potent steel and magic, while Law of Julianos will enhance all healing. Max stamina and magicka will still be important for ability strength, so pure warriors and mages can still be stronger than hybrids in their respective fields.

There is an overlooked issue to this approach: siphoning attacks. There are multiple attacks which heal based on damage done such as Puncturing Sweeps, Strife, Burning Embers and Bloodlust. There are two ways to address siphoning attacks: they are governed by an average of spell and weapon damage or they are governed 50-50, spell damage determining healing and weapon damage the damage. In the both cases siphoning abilities will heal similarly for both offensive and healing focused builds, but shine strongest for users of Pelinal's Aptitude. However in the latter solution, the percentage of damage converted to healing will be variable and potentially under or overpowered depending on the user's stats. Calculating siphoning ability strength on an average will make them perform more consistently.

Progressive Soft Caps

ESO was originally designed and balanced with soft caps. For most stats, there was point where a 40% soft cap was incurred. For weapon damage, this was 207; for health recovery, 95; etc. To many it felt like a hard cap, even though several builds went far beyond it. I pushed health recovery to 218 while maintaining physical and spell resistance and weapon damage at their soft caps and pushed stamina recovery to its cap with a single buff. There were also blind spots, like critical chance and cost reduction. The premise of progressive soft caps is to implement a cap that gradually gets harder as stats go higher. I toyed around with a few numbers in another thread and the three tier 20-40-80 contained power creep the most effectively while maintaining fluidity at lower numbers.

Soft cap test numbers:

First Cap: 2000 - 20%
Second Cap: 3000 - 40%
Third Cap: 4000 - 80%

Actual vs Capped
1000 => 1000
2000 => 2000 (First Cap)
3000 => 2800
3250 => 3000 (Second Cap)
4000 => 3450
4917 => 4000 (Third Cap)
5000 => 4017
9917 => 5000

The 20-40-80 tiered caps makes attaining a serviceable number (such as 2000 weapon damage) easy, a high number (such as 3654) difficult and obscene numbers (such as 5000) nigh impossible to reach.

Power creep has done more than reveal the flaw of linking damage and healing: it has removed the resource game from the resource driven combat. The removal of soft caps lessened the strain on resources but the Champion System alleviated the pressure almost entirely from a player's primary resource. Soft caps have the influence to return this lost aspect of combat and the following draft is aiming to return this, increasing TTK and lowering the likelihood of stalemate between similarly skilled/specced combatants.

*The numbers are for a level 50 player and should not be interpreted for lower levels.

Max Stamina
Cap 1: 17000
Cap 2: 21000
Cap 3: 25000

Max Health
Cap 1: 20000
Cap 2: 23000
Cap 4: 26000
(Battle Spirit will ignore the soft cap(s).)

Max Magicka
Cap 1: 17000
Cap 2: 21000
Cap 3: 25000

Stamina Recovery
Cap 1: 1200
Cap 2: 1600
Cap 3: 2000

Health Recovery
Cap 1: 900
Cap 2: 1200
Cap 3: 1500

Magicka Recovery
Cap 1: 1200
Cap 2: 1600
Cap 3: 2000

Spell Damage
Cap 1: 1900
Cap 2: 2800
Cap 3: 3700

Weapon Damage
Cap 1: 1900
Cap 2: 2800
Cap 3: 3700

Spell Critical
Cap 1: 15%
Cap 2: 30%
Cap 3: 45%

Weapon Critical
Cap 1: 15%
Cap 2: 30%
Cap 3: 45%

(Critical modifier has few enough increasers that it can be uncapped.)

Spell Resistance
Cap 1: 16250
Cap 2: 24375
Cap 3: 32500
(Hard cap is replaced by soft cap.)
(Penetration will be applied prior to soft cap.)

Physical Resistance
Cap 1: 16250
Cap 2: 24375
Cap 3: 32500
(Hard cap is replaced by soft cap.)
(Penetration will be applied prior to soft cap.)

Cost reduction:
Cap 1: -20% ability cost
Cap 2: -30% ability cost
Cap 3: -40% ability cost
(Cost reduction mileage will vary by ability cost.)

The Champion System will not bypass these soft caps, and to ensure the calculations are more straightforward, how healing and damage increasing stars work will be changed. They will increase the spell/weapon damage by a percentage when using a relevant ability rather than the tooltip value, so the Champion System is also checked by the soft caps. There is an example of this in the Flame Whip morph, Molten Whip: "While slotted, your Spell and Weapon Damage is increased by 70 for Ardent Flame abilities." Defensive counter stars such as Hardy can work similarly, increasing Spell/Physical Resistance prior to soft caps when struck by a relevant damage type. Extreme defense builds should be as hard to attain as extreme offense and extreme healing builds.

To give a sense of how today's numbers may translate:
Actual => Capped

Max Stamina
40000 => 25000 + (40000 - 17000 - 4000/.8 - 4000/.6)*.2 = 27267
30000 => 25267
20000 => 19400
10000 => 10000

Max Health
60000 => 26000 + (60000 - 20000 - 3000/.8 - 3000/.6)*.2 = 32250
50000 => 30250
30000 => 26250
25000 => 23750
20000 => 20000
15000 => 15000

Max Magicka
40000 => 25000 + (40000 - 17000 - 4000/.8 - 4000/.6)*.2 = 27267
30000 => 25267
20000 => 19400
10000 => 10000

Stamina Recovery
3000 => 2000 + (3000 - 1200 - 400/.8 - 400/.6)*.2 = 2127
2000 => 1600 + (2000 - 1200 - 400/.8)*.6 = 1780
1000 => 1000

Health Recovery
3000 => 1500 + (3000 - 900 - 300/.8 - 300/.6)*.2 = 1745
2000 => 1545
1300 => 1215
1000 => 980

Magicka Recovery
3000 => 2000 + (3000 - 1200 - 400/.8 - 400/.6)*.2 = 2127
2000 => 1600 + (2000 - 1200 - 400/.8)*.6 = 1780
1000 => 1000

Spell Damage
5000 => 3700 + (5000 - 1900 - 900/.8 - 900/.6)*.2 = 3795
4000 => 2800 + (4000 - 1900 - 900/.8)*.6 = 3385
3000 => 2780
2000 => 1980
1500 => 1500

Weapon Damage
5000 => 3700 + (5000 - 1900 - 900/.8 - 900/.6)*.2 = 3795
4000 => 2800 + (4000 - 1900 - 900/.8)*.6 = 3385
3000 => 2780
2000 => 1980
1500 => 1500

Spell Critical
100% => 45 + (100 - 15 - 15/.8 - 15/.6)*.2 = 53.25%
60% => 45.25%
50% => 39.75%
40% => 33.75%
30% => 27%
22% => 20.6%
20% => 19%
10% => 10%

Weapon Critical
100% => 45 + (100 - 15 - 15/.8 - 15/.6)*.2 = 53.25%
60% => 45.25%
50% => 39.75%
40% => 33.75%
30% => 27%
22% => 20.6%
20% => 19%
10% => 10%

Spell Resistance
40000 => 32500 + (40000 - 16250 - 8125/.8 - 8125/.6)*.2 = 32510
32500 => 28031
25000 => 23250
20000 => 19250
17160 => 16978
10560 => 10560

Physical Resistance
40000 => 32500 + (40000 - 16250 - 8125/.8 - 8125/.6)*.2 = 32510
32500 => 28031
25000 => 23250
20000 => 19250
17160 => 16978
10560 => 10560

Additional Math

Can stamina recovery while blocking be allowed under soft caps?

Current Day:
Base Block Cost: 2160
25% Champion Cost Reduction: 2160 * .75 = 1620
3x gold block cost enchantments: 1620 – 203x3 = 1620 – 609 = 1011
Fortress and Defensive Stance: 1011 * .56 = 566
Sturdy x8: 566 * .68 = 385
Constitution 1 second: 385 – 326 = 59

Under the proposed soft caps...
Max Recovery:
2127 / 4 = 531 stamina per 0.5 seconds
Max percentage reduction:
.75*.56*.68 = .2856 = 71.44%
Under soft caps:
40 + (71.44 - 20 - 10/.8 - 10/.6)*.2 = 44.45 => 0.5555
Block cost enchantments under max soft caps:
609*.2 = 121.8
Minimum Block cost:
2160 * .5555 - 121.8 - 326 = 752
Max Stamina: 27267
Seconds until stamina depleted (1 hit/sec): 27267 / 752 = 36.25 ~= 33 Yes!
Seconds until stamina depleted (2+/sec): 27267 / (2156 - 163) = 27267 / 1993 = 13.68 ~= 14 Yes!

Can we remove the Roll Dodge Fatigue increasing cost mechanic?

Current Day:
Base Roll Cost: 3654
15% Champion Cost Reduction: 3654 * .75 = 2740
Athletics x7: 2740 * .72 = 1973
Well-Fitted x8: 1973 * .6 = 1184

Under the proposed soft caps...
Max Recovery:
2127 / 2 = 1062 stamina per 1 second
Max percentage reduction:
.75*.72*.6 = .324 = 67.6%
Under soft caps:
40 + (67.6 - 20 - 10/.8 - 10/.6)*.2 = 43.7 => 0.563
Roll Dodge cost under soft caps:
3654*.563 = 2057
Max Stamina: 27267
Number of Roll Dodges: 27267 / (2057 - 1062) = 27267 / 995 = 27 No...

Can we remove the increasing cost to Bolt Escape?

Base Bolt Escape Cost: 3780
16% Champion Cost Reduction: 3780 * .84 = 3175
3x gold reduce spell cost glyphs: 3175 - 203 * 3 = 3175 - 609 = 2566
Seducer set: 2566 * 0.92 = 2361
Evocation x7: 2361 * 0.79 = 1865
Breton cost reduction: 1865 * 0.97 = 1809

Under the proposed soft caps...
Max Recovery:
2127 / 2 = 1062 magicka per 1 second
Max percentage reduction:
.84*.92*.79*.97 = .5922 = 40.78%
Under soft caps:
30 + (40.78 - 20 - 10/.8)*.6 = 34.97 => 0.6503
Bolt Escape cost under soft caps:
3780 * .6503 = 2458
2458 - (203*.6) = 2458 - 121.8 = 2336
( 2336 - (3780*.6) ) /.6 = (2336 - 2268)/.6 = 68/.6 = 113
2268 - (406 - 113)*.2 = 2268 - 293*.2 = 2209
Max Magicka: 27267
Number of Bolt Escapes: 27267 / (2209 - 1062) = 27267 / 1147 = 23 No...

I am considering dropping the cost reduction soft caps to 10%, 20% and 30% an ability's cost, but do not want rework that math right now.

There is one final part to my rebalancing: empowering active defenses. In 1.5 and prior, passive defenses were worse than they are now. As a heavily armored player today, you can see 3 to 5k damage on your death recap from unblocked attacks. In the past they were 500 to 800, or 5k to 8k. So, how is TTK so much lower now? It came from active defenses, such as blocking, rolling, damage shields and healing. To empower most active defenses, Battle Spirit's reduction needs to be removed. With soft caps, we can stop balancing around edge cases and the extremes of power -- Dragon Blood and Sun Shield will be useful to the average Dragonknight and Templar once again. Stamina recovery while blocking can also be allowed, as with the soft caps on both stamina recovery and cost reduction, it is impossible to out recover block cost.

In an ESO Live back in February, Wrobel passingly mentioned a combat overhaul in the prototyping stages. I recommend increasing its development priority.

White wabbit

In before they close

iam117

#2

Mx13

inb4 nobody cares
inb4 can i have your stuff

WhiteMage

All he really has to do is change the title and the thread becomes a legitimate discussion on balance. I agree with what I read, even though it was slightly TL; DR.

susmitds

Can I haz your stuff? Just kidding, hoping that you return someday.

Ffastyl

WhiteMage wrote: »

All he really has to do is change the title and the thread becomes a legitimate discussion on balance. I agree with what I read, even though it was slightly TL; DR.

Advice taken. Hopefully a better title, though I can give it another go.

alephthiago

You are correct in everything

DHale

I felt the post was very thoughtful passionate and well delivered. That said I disagree with most of the points. Without writing a book I am less powerful today than I was a game launch on my bowmen bosmer nightblade at vr 5 I could literally kill with one shot focused aim anyone but vortexman man, believe me I tried. There was a player named Tyago and he was khajit and I copied his build. Stam was not cool or very viable but hundings and ashen did well with a bow.

Later I rolled a Templar to heal with my Templar and blazing shield and harness magic. I wanted the unkillable DK's to talons an whip me I had zero chance of dying. Once they dropped the standard which was the most powerful ult in the game the DK would kill themselves as 54 percent of all damage would be returned to the DK. Harness took all the magic damage an I took none... None. Also the more people hitting me the more powerful I got not less. I ran no offensive ability if my health dropped even for a second. I would biting jab them which healed at that time there was no stam morph. I woul die to sneaky nbs and sorc streaking through me with impulse. But dks literally did not have a chance. Especially with blinding flashes. I could even survive Sypher.

I agree that combat has gone off track not enough to make me quit but certainly enough that we have to work around the endless nerfs. These days you have to have 60 k health to have a powerful blazing shield. I don't want soft caps I don't want nerfs that is what has gotten us into the mess we are in at this very moment. Nothing is wrong about min maxing happens in most every game. When perma tanks came on the scene there were counters Melee range sorc vs Templar. Each class had strengths and weakness. That's gone. Soft caps prevent people from getting more powerful I am glad they are gone. You shouldn't have some lame azz build and be able to solo around and be competitive.

That said I don't mind having to change builds but what I do mind is not getting gold tempers in my hirelings or having to decon 200 mats to get a single temper. I do mind spending 10 plus k on a tempering alloy when I used to get them for 2.4k. I do mind that that I have to change builds due to bad players complaining and something is made to be worse rather than something being better and me wanting it as opposed to needing it. That is my trigger than is my complaint. I certainly did not agree with very much on your fixes but will certainly agree that stam outclasses magic in most every way.

Pinja

Summery:
-Preferred combat pre-imperial city.

-Eliminate Stamina DD vs Magica DD, by converting Spell & weapon damage to role specific Heal&Attack efficiency.

-Bring back soft-caps.

Waffennacht

But... skill and stats beat just stats...

Ffastyl

Waffennacht wrote: »

But... skill and stats beat just stats...

That is true but stats outweigh skill in determining who wins.

Waffennacht

Ffastyl wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

But... skill and stats beat just stats...

That is true but stats outweigh skill in determining who wins.

Kinda should be that way though, or else why even have an RPG? Like gear lol

SHADOW2KK

Bye then

Ffastyl

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

But... skill and stats beat just stats...

That is true but stats outweigh skill in determining who wins.

Kinda should be that way though, or else why even have an RPG? Like gear lol

ESO is an action RPG, or at least tries to be. Things like Dark Souls, Monster Hunter, The Witcher 3, etc. In those games, skill outweighs stats. With enough skill it is possible to play effectively on the lowest stats achievable. Take a look at the Maiden's Ladle in Dark Souls 2 for how much skill can outweigh stats in an RPG.

[Deleted User]

Hello there,

This post is to let you know that we've felt it necessary to close this thread. The reason being that goodbye threads are against the Forum Rules.

Thank you for understanding.