Play the Way You Want

Flameheart

Typhoios wrote: »

alpehans wrote: »

I hate that sentence, it's so misleading. Is it true for lot of the content ...... sure. But far from all of it.
Nothing but a cheap sales pitch.

I would rather say . Find a playstyle that suits you and is viable. Try different things to learn and improve etc etc ...
But ofc. that dosen't sound as slick

It isn't that misleading. Compared to other MMOs you really can play the way you want. On any class you can heal, tank, melee dps, range dps, run around with a bow, shoot spells out of a staff. You can wear any armor you want. Most MMOs only let certain classes do any of those things. ESO classes are better suited to certain roles, but you can do whatever. For most of the questing in this game you really can play however you want. The problem is when people think they can do endgame with other players and not care about how well they fill their role. You can play the way you want, that doesn't mean your playstyle is going to be the best. That doesn't make play the way you want any less true however.

This.

Wifeaggro13

wolfninja101b14_ESO wrote: »

I've seen a lot of posts and whatnot about trying to be the ideal player on ESO, whether it be in PVE or PVP. Whether it be the best build for PVP or how to properly heal/dps/tank, it can be a bit to take in for anyone, and it may leave some people feeling inadequate about how they play. Please, don't feel like that. ESO is an expansive game that lets you play in all sorts of styles. If you prefer PVP, fine! If you like PVE, roleplaying, questing, and more, enjoy it! If you feel lost and are unsure on what to do in the game, don't be afraid to ask! There may be a few sour apples in ESO, but they are vastly outnumbered by kind and friendly people. Don't let others and how they play dictate your play style. Enjoy ESO how you want!

The only problem is if you want to play pve end ge you cannot play a utility base build. It's not really play the way you want. It's play the DPS math game.

Mush55

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Pallio wrote: »

Play as you want - solo. If you group with other know your role and play it effectively, don't be a snowflake and waste other people's time with an ineffective build.

Make me.. That was the easiest way to say it.. I play WHAT I like, HOW I like it.. If I, MYSELF, decide it's bad, I will change it.. You have no right to decide what's good in my world..

Then dont join a grp for any vet dungeons, cant tell you the wasted hours of trying to get through a WGT run with a heavy armoured magic sorc who only hard casted frags and had bow on his back bar. or the healer who used a 2 hand sword and dual wield.

The list is endless, this was before the kick button, so yes play as you want but don't drag others into it and expect to complete anything but quests..

Asardes

You can actually tank in mostly light armor - endgame most players use 5/1/1 for the undaunted passives - if you stack enough wards and shields. For example a mage sorcerer that casts boundless storm, bound aegis and hardened ward, and equips 1H&S can be a pretty successful tank even in veteran dungeons. He can recoup stamina while blocking trough dark deal. Of course, he's less than ideal from this point of view because the stamina pool is smaller than it would be on a stamina build, and he lacks blocking passives which a DK or Templar has, and of course the heavy armor passives.

Daemons_Bane

Mush55 wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Pallio wrote: »

Play as you want - solo. If you group with other know your role and play it effectively, don't be a snowflake and waste other people's time with an ineffective build.

Make me.. That was the easiest way to say it.. I play WHAT I like, HOW I like it.. If I, MYSELF, decide it's bad, I will change it.. You have no right to decide what's good in my world..

Then dont join a grp for any vet dungeons, cant tell you the wasted hours of trying to get through a WGT run with a heavy armoured magic sorc who only hard casted frags and had bow on his back bar. or the healer who used a 2 hand sword and dual wield.

The list is endless, this was before the kick button, so yes play as you want but don't drag others into it and expect to complete anything but quests..

As the 3rd-4th guy who wants to comment on my post, you can get the same answer as the rest I guess.. Have yet to experience being kicked for the choices I make about my characters and playstyle.. I have completed all the vet dungeons except the 2 new ones, since they came out after I stopped grinding.. It has worked so far, it will work in the future too

Wrecking_Blow_Spam

I'm firmly in the opinion of do it at your own leisure. Don't drag others down with you, bc your role play character is a light armour, bow and 2h healer with no heals.

Why in vet dungeons should we have to carry people through? If I que as healer - I heal and help with dps, same with tank. Dps I dps and off heal. But why when I'm dps do I have to heal bc the healer doesn't heal?
Or why when I'm a fully light armoured healer in Spell Cure, does the tank not taunt and for some mysterious reason all the hard hitting vet bosses target me. I wouldn't mind if they had high dps which they do not.

UltimaJoe777

Typhoios wrote: »

alpehans wrote: »

I hate that sentence, it's so misleading. Is it true for lot of the content ...... sure. But far from all of it.
Nothing but a cheap sales pitch.

I would rather say . Find a playstyle that suits you and is viable. Try different things to learn and improve etc etc ...
But ofc. that dosen't sound as slick

It isn't that misleading. Compared to other MMOs you really can play the way you want. On any class you can heal, tank, melee dps, range dps, run around with a bow, shoot spells out of a staff. You can wear any armor you want. Most MMOs only let certain classes do any of those things. ESO classes are better suited to certain roles, but you can do whatever. For most of the questing in this game you really can play however you want. The problem is when people think they can do endgame with other players and not care about how well they fill their role. You can play the way you want, that doesn't mean your playstyle is going to be the best. That doesn't make play the way you want any less true however.

The "best" is subjective really. Far as I'm concerned the "best" is what you can use to its fullest. The "best" build for one person may not work as well for another, and so there is no universal "best".

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Omg just reminded me of our healer we had that would go werewolf during boss fights to help dps ugh. Play the way u want all you want in fact I love out of the box builds just don't come to a dungeon and waist our time.

There's a fine line between playing the way you want and playing the way you want with a good build. Clearly that "Healer" did NOT have a good build. If they want to be a Werewolf they need to not be a Healer. Play smart when you play the way you want, that's just common sense. Contradictory builds are the worst for team play.

Asardes wrote: »

Spamming DoTs is foolish regardless of class & build. Only a noob can make such mistakes. if the tooltip says "lasts for X seconds" it means you should only refresh it after that time. Stacking them and bursting while they are is the way to go of course. So that sorcerer can debuff with elemental drain and pulsar, put down elemental blockade, liquid lightning and velocious course then blast the target with force pulse and light attacks in between for extra damage and ult generation.

Pets are a real hindrance in PvE group content. They tend to draw mobs away from kill zone, die easily and visually block certain mechanics. At low levels are OK if you haven't unlocked other skills but I've never seen any endgame sorcerers using them.

If you run a Sorc Healer then Twilight Matriarch is practically a must. Also there are some people that get by with Pet Builds just fine, even in team play.

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Actually, 'play the way you want' is implying that no matter what you choose, there will be a balance. That's simply a lie, and probably not even possible given the diversity of each ability.

I don't see how that is implied. "Play the way you want" means you do things your way and not someone else's. This does not, however, dictate your build. Your build is based on how you like to play, whether it's some cookie cutter build or not. Far as I'm concerned if you play how you want you have the most fun, but if you hinder your allies it could very well drain your fun, and if that happens you learn and grow from it, but still continue to play your way.


Just remember: play your way but still play smart in team play and, if you want to, play stupid in solo play!

Luigi_Vampa

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Typhoios wrote: »

alpehans wrote: »

I hate that sentence, it's so misleading. Is it true for lot of the content ...... sure. But far from all of it.
Nothing but a cheap sales pitch.

I would rather say . Find a playstyle that suits you and is viable. Try different things to learn and improve etc etc ...
But ofc. that dosen't sound as slick

It isn't that misleading. Compared to other MMOs you really can play the way you want. On any class you can heal, tank, melee dps, range dps, run around with a bow, shoot spells out of a staff. You can wear any armor you want. Most MMOs only let certain classes do any of those things. ESO classes are better suited to certain roles, but you can do whatever. For most of the questing in this game you really can play however you want. The problem is when people think they can do endgame with other players and not care about how well they fill their role. You can play the way you want, that doesn't mean your playstyle is going to be the best. That doesn't make play the way you want any less true however.

The "best" is subjective really. Far as I'm concerned the "best" is what you can use to its fullest. The "best" build for one person may not work as well for another, and so there is no universal "best".

Not really. What is best for an individual is subjective and based on their skill. What is universally best isn't. We can measure dps output. For instance:

Person A wears gear setup B and can pull 35k dps using simple rotation C
Person D wears gear setup E and can pull 55k dps using complex rotation F

Person A wears gear setup E and can pull 30k dps using complex rotation F
Person D wears gear setup B and can pull 40k dps using simple rotation C

From this we can see that Person D is the better player assuming they both know how to not stand in red etc...

We also see that gear setup E and complex rotation F have a higher potential damage output. Person A clearly struggles with complex rotation F and gets better dps from gear setup B and simple rotation C

This means that while gear setup B and simple rotation C are the best for Player A, it is clear that gear setup E and complex rotation F are the best overall.

To assume that some builds don't drastically outperform others is ignorant.

While some other things might always be found out to be better through extensive testing and we might never know exactly what is best, we do know what is not the best. To put it simply, a quote I read once; we can't know the exact number of fish in the ocean, but we know the answer isn't seven.

alexkdd99

Sludge04 wrote: »

I have to be honest, I've been in IC and Cyrodiil once since they nerfed shields on sorcerers. Surviving was hard enough as it was against weapon attacks, got ganked the other day and it was more or less an instakill, no fun for me there anymore. On the plus side I'm almost at level 50 on my Bosmer NB and will be in a better position to help out in PvP with this character. If someone can give me a good set up for a magica Breton sorcerer for PvP I would be very grateful.

I play almost exclusively as a sorc and while I do not like or agree to the severity of the nerf to shields they are still very much playable. Try only putting 50 points into bastion and put those into hardy, elemental defender.

With most class Balance patches certain groups will be forced to adapt, it is the way of MMOs.
You just have to watch your magicka a little better as you are having to use wards more often while in a fight.

Btw I am no pvp god or even expert but I can still do pretty well in Cyrodiil as a sorc.

Pinja

When I come across trash builds I just put them on my back & walk with it. If I can talk a big game the I can carry them threw it. Then when I solo a boss, their like "Woo, how'd you do that."

mb10

And for that reason I am not just a ganker, but a bloody good one too.

I do it because its fun.

Some people think tanking a zerg for 8 seconds it fun or spamming radiant destruction. Thats cool but I'll just gank you the second you let your guard down.

freespirit

I play the way I want......

I totally know that my builds are not the best BUT they are my builds!

I would never queue for a vet dungeon, neither would I join a group with someone asking for "exp players only" even if I knew the dungeon well.

For vet Trials I understand the need for a cohesive group and in that instance I am totally willing with the right group to change whatever they would like me to.

I am incredibly lucky in that one of my Trade Guilds has leaders that are willing to spend many, many hours teaching us idiots the harder dungeons!!

Shout out for Traders of the Covenant, PC-EU, a truly nice bunch of people!!

BRogueNZ

People have every right to play how they want and with who they prefer to play it with, it goes both ways

I guess you team with those with similar ideals or submit to the random soup of pug and take what you get, try to make it happen or decide pushing pooze up hill is not something you want to be doing with your time.

SublimeSparo

Asardes wrote: »

You can play the way you want solo, but as part of a group you must know and fulfill your chosen role. If you sign up as tank, and you have medium armor, 2W & Bow you can't do that. Or sign up as healer and have no healing spells available. Or DD and you can't kill even the trash in dungeons.

Partly true, but i have tanked dungeon with dw and a bow, using inner rage and being a dodgeroll dps vigour monkey

FearlessOne_2014

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

On the plus side if you're good enough at playing the way you want eventually your build will become the meta.

Signed: Radiant Oppression Spamming Day One Magplars

Your tears is music to my ears. You know you have the bow's Venom Arrow and Crushing Shock that completely naturalizes Radiant Oppression at range right? But that's ok keep crying because you refuse to L2P. It just make me smile even more to get the killing blow on you, with Radiant Oppression instead of Dark Flare or Reflecting Light or Meteor.

But all jokes aside RD can be highly and easily countered from range and melee by both magicka and stamina builds/players. Yall just choose not to.

Coatmagic

Had a guildy asking for a body to get some crag door open. There was no one on and I was doing my usual dinking around, so I offered to come stand on spot X. Then another person turned up and though he'd done all the content already decided he'd help her through it. I was bowing out explaining how extraordinarily useless I would be to them, but they wanted me to come along *shrug*. So, hey, after 2 + years in game I got some crag done. A few minutes turned into a few hours and it was a lot of fun, but not my thing.

I have also fully respec'd/regeared an alt vet char because a friend needed a tank/healer to carry them thru some low level dungeons just so he could check em off the achievs list. Heck, my main has never even gotten those achievs, lol. Again, it was a good time, but not something I am interested in doing.

So, been here since beta and playing the way I want. Of course, the way I want has nothing to do with group dungeons or PvP. I'm a *flower-picker* and a *care-bear*... as in, I don't care about end game; I am enjoying the world the devs have provided me to run around in... the way I want.

Thank you for the beautiful world, devs.

FearlessOne_2014

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

nordsavage wrote: »

Wrong. If you do not learn tactics and rotations that already work, equip best in slot items and sets and streamline your build for maximum effect then you are not going to be successful in this game. Play your way is dead. Telling people that it is ok to run around with a heavy armor, hybrid mag/stam with a caster/bow dps etc. is only going to hurt them. Once they get beyond chugging around the maps and getting into real content not being optimized is just going to leave them lacking and their teammates hurting. This will prevent them from entering the upper echelons of the game which believe me is where the real end game and true rewards are. This is not a traditional TES. There are too many resources to become a better player. So once you are done doing these quest that have been nerfed so bad you could box naked through them you need to get your head in the game and get serious or be excluded due to your own inadequacies.

It is you who is wrong. I play my way and it works just fine thank you very much.

I am seeing a lot of elitist cancer in this thread. Get over yourselves, seriously. You do your thing, we'll do ours. Don't like it? Tough. Deal with it, because we have to deal with you just the same.

So true and this is why it's better to simply leave group. Rather then spend a 2 hours in a 15 to 20 minute 4 man dungeon. Just to be called a "Elitist" after reaching out to help someone optimize their play style or build so "THEY" can clear the content.

Because of being burned by players like you. I'm reluctant to help out completely clueless random players, and would rather wait the timer then go thru the hassle of trying to help them out, just to be labeled a "Elitist". Remember I have all the gear and items to clear with a relatively decent group.

Drummerx04

Having been in dungeons like vBC where I dealt 80% of the group damage as the tank doing nothing but casting liquid lightning and boundless storm (~4k dps with low spell power), and vICP where the sorc healer had 19k mag, 1.5k spell damage, and unenchanted heavy armor tanking sets... I can safely say that "play your way" in group content can be pretty crappy for your group.

As a magicka sorc in pve/pvp, I am far from the current stam meta, but I am still very effective at the roles because that's the way I want to play... and I really just want others to be effective too. Hell, I've even seen pet sorc builds pull probably 15k dps on a boss... it was weird to see but the job got finished cleanly and that's all we ask for.

burglar

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Play the cookie cutter meta you want.

That's ultimately the way things pan out at the end of the day. But people are choosing to play this way; it's not the case that there aren't enough combination's of ways to play, but more so that people are complacent in doing what's popular. There are a ton of undiscovered, effective builds, that people have not taken the time to realize. Or they've been realized, but not communicated - in a way, following the meta can be dangerous if someone knows how to exploit the meta to their advantage (in pvp).

However, if you're saying that regardless of what build you use, it all feels the same, then I agree to an extent. There are too few variables that determine the outcome of a fight; it's either who has the fastest DPS, who has the most defense, or who outnumbers who. So, in return, people strive to meet those metrics and only those metrics, resulting in everyone playing the same way which makes for some really repetitive game play. On top of that, people's perceived issues with the game are seen solely from this perspective, never outside of it. As a result, the changes made to the game are to this meta of game play, which only perpetuates it. Hence the removal of soft caps.

This might be different if they allowed for some classes to have natural advantages over others; in DAoC it worked pretty well, mages were good at killing tanks, tanks were good at killing stealthers, and stealthers were good at killing magic users. In ESO it doesn't matter, so if you meet the aforementioned criteria, you receive the best outcome. I don't know if giving natural advantages to one class over another is the right way to go, but they've got to do something better than what they have been. There needs to be a variety of ways to reach the same outcome as the players who simply min/max everything - I don't necessarily need a hybrid build, just some diversity.

Humatiel

There needs to be a variety of ways to reach the same outcome as the players who simply min/max everything - I don't necessarily need a hybrid build, just some diversity.

By definition what your asking for cannot happen. For there to be multiple ways to reach the same endpoint would mean multiple items with exactly the same stats. Which means the only difference in items would be the cosmetic differences.

FearlessOne_2014

Humatiel wrote: »

There needs to be a variety of ways to reach the same outcome as the players who simply min/max everything - I don't necessarily need a hybrid build, just some diversity.

By definition what your asking for cannot happen. For there to be multiple ways to reach the same endpoint would mean multiple items with exactly the same stats. Which means the only difference in items would be the cosmetic differences.

I think what he means is give players the illusion of being different, without actually being different. It's kinda the same thing some Magicka based players want. You can fit multiple play styles into a single statistics combination. You just have to design each play style to appear different without being statistically different. With certain armor, monster helm, and jewellery sets. Having many combinations achieving the same statistical goal is pretty easy.

I am in full agreement with this thought process. Everyone wins to include the devs, and nobody but players who just outright want a unfair advantage loses here.

#BalanceFinallyMadeInANutshell

Humatiel

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

There needs to be a variety of ways to reach the same outcome as the players who simply min/max everything - I don't necessarily need a hybrid build, just some diversity.

By definition what your asking for cannot happen. For there to be multiple ways to reach the same endpoint would mean multiple items with exactly the same stats. Which means the only difference in items would be the cosmetic differences.

I think what he means is give players the illusion of being different, without actually being different. It's kinda the same thing some Magicka based players want. You can fit multiple play styles into a single statistics combination. You just have to design each play style to appear different without being statistically different. With certain armor, monster helm, and jewellery sets. Having many combinations achieving the same statistical goal is pretty easy.

I am in full agreement with this thought process. Everyone wins to include the devs, and nobody but players who just outright want a unfair advantage loses here.

#BalanceFinallyMadeInANutshell

I see, god that sounds like a nightmare to play. I tend to min/max a lot so the idea of "sure wear whatever its all the same" is such a turnoff I would almost certainly stop playing.

UltimaJoe777

Typhoios wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Typhoios wrote: »

alpehans wrote: »

I hate that sentence, it's so misleading. Is it true for lot of the content ...... sure. But far from all of it.
Nothing but a cheap sales pitch.

I would rather say . Find a playstyle that suits you and is viable. Try different things to learn and improve etc etc ...
But ofc. that dosen't sound as slick

It isn't that misleading. Compared to other MMOs you really can play the way you want. On any class you can heal, tank, melee dps, range dps, run around with a bow, shoot spells out of a staff. You can wear any armor you want. Most MMOs only let certain classes do any of those things. ESO classes are better suited to certain roles, but you can do whatever. For most of the questing in this game you really can play however you want. The problem is when people think they can do endgame with other players and not care about how well they fill their role. You can play the way you want, that doesn't mean your playstyle is going to be the best. That doesn't make play the way you want any less true however.

The "best" is subjective really. Far as I'm concerned the "best" is what you can use to its fullest. The "best" build for one person may not work as well for another, and so there is no universal "best".

Not really. What is best for an individual is subjective and based on their skill. What is universally best isn't. We can measure dps output. For instance:

Person A wears gear setup B and can pull 35k dps using simple rotation C
Person D wears gear setup E and can pull 55k dps using complex rotation F

Person A wears gear setup E and can pull 30k dps using complex rotation F
Person D wears gear setup B and can pull 40k dps using simple rotation C

From this we can see that Person D is the better player assuming they both know how to not stand in red etc...

We also see that gear setup E and complex rotation F have a higher potential damage output. Person A clearly struggles with complex rotation F and gets better dps from gear setup B and simple rotation C

This means that while gear setup B and simple rotation C are the best for Player A, it is clear that gear setup E and complex rotation F are the best overall.

To assume that some builds don't drastically outperform others is ignorant.

While some other things might always be found out to be better through extensive testing and we might never know exactly what is best, we do know what is not the best. To put it simply, a quote I read once; we can't know the exact number of fish in the ocean, but we know the answer isn't seven.

No, what's ignorant is how single-minded metagamers can be. This is why elitism is shunned

Numbers are numbers, player skill is player skill. Numbers can THEORETICALLY display a build's superiority, but only a player's skill can determine what is truly superior. A build that works better in theory may not work for whoever is using it because it does not mesh with them. Build Compatibility > Numbers anyday, and THAT is play your way.

Not saying the math professors are wrong, just saying it's wrong to say only THEY are right.

Luigi_Vampa

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Typhoios wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Typhoios wrote: »

alpehans wrote: »

I hate that sentence, it's so misleading. Is it true for lot of the content ...... sure. But far from all of it.
Nothing but a cheap sales pitch.

I would rather say . Find a playstyle that suits you and is viable. Try different things to learn and improve etc etc ...
But ofc. that dosen't sound as slick

It isn't that misleading. Compared to other MMOs you really can play the way you want. On any class you can heal, tank, melee dps, range dps, run around with a bow, shoot spells out of a staff. You can wear any armor you want. Most MMOs only let certain classes do any of those things. ESO classes are better suited to certain roles, but you can do whatever. For most of the questing in this game you really can play however you want. The problem is when people think they can do endgame with other players and not care about how well they fill their role. You can play the way you want, that doesn't mean your playstyle is going to be the best. That doesn't make play the way you want any less true however.

The "best" is subjective really. Far as I'm concerned the "best" is what you can use to its fullest. The "best" build for one person may not work as well for another, and so there is no universal "best".

Not really. What is best for an individual is subjective and based on their skill. What is universally best isn't. We can measure dps output. For instance:

Person A wears gear setup B and can pull 35k dps using simple rotation C
Person D wears gear setup E and can pull 55k dps using complex rotation F

Person A wears gear setup E and can pull 30k dps using complex rotation F
Person D wears gear setup B and can pull 40k dps using simple rotation C

From this we can see that Person D is the better player assuming they both know how to not stand in red etc...

We also see that gear setup E and complex rotation F have a higher potential damage output. Person A clearly struggles with complex rotation F and gets better dps from gear setup B and simple rotation C

This means that while gear setup B and simple rotation C are the best for Player A, it is clear that gear setup E and complex rotation F are the best overall.

To assume that some builds don't drastically outperform others is ignorant.

While some other things might always be found out to be better through extensive testing and we might never know exactly what is best, we do know what is not the best. To put it simply, a quote I read once; we can't know the exact number of fish in the ocean, but we know the answer isn't seven.

No, what's ignorant is how single-minded metagamers can be. This is why elitism is shunned

Numbers are numbers, player skill is player skill. Numbers can THEORETICALLY display a build's superiority, but only a player's skill can determine what is truly superior. A build that works better in theory may not work for whoever is using it because it does not mesh with them. Build Compatibility > Numbers anyday, and THAT is play your way.

Not saying the math professors are wrong, just saying it's wrong to say only THEY are right.

I'm not talking about whatever works best for the average joe. If he can't handle a complex rotation that a certain best in slot gear set requires, he is probably better using something different that suits him. However it is unlikely that that guy is going to outperform the player that can use that complex rotation that the best in slot gear requires. Now if this hypothetical elitist was to use average joes setup, he would still out dps him, because he is better. He would not, however out dps his best in slot gear set and rotation. So, while best in slot is not best for average joe, you would be ignorant to claim that it isn't the best or at least one of the best setups in the game. The meta doesn't get made by randomly throwing *** together. People test these things extensively. Sometimes someone can show them something is better and the meta shifts, but what they were doing was still top level.

UltimaJoe777

Typhoios wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Typhoios wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Typhoios wrote: »

alpehans wrote: »

I hate that sentence, it's so misleading. Is it true for lot of the content ...... sure. But far from all of it.
Nothing but a cheap sales pitch.

I would rather say . Find a playstyle that suits you and is viable. Try different things to learn and improve etc etc ...
But ofc. that dosen't sound as slick

It isn't that misleading. Compared to other MMOs you really can play the way you want. On any class you can heal, tank, melee dps, range dps, run around with a bow, shoot spells out of a staff. You can wear any armor you want. Most MMOs only let certain classes do any of those things. ESO classes are better suited to certain roles, but you can do whatever. For most of the questing in this game you really can play however you want. The problem is when people think they can do endgame with other players and not care about how well they fill their role. You can play the way you want, that doesn't mean your playstyle is going to be the best. That doesn't make play the way you want any less true however.

The "best" is subjective really. Far as I'm concerned the "best" is what you can use to its fullest. The "best" build for one person may not work as well for another, and so there is no universal "best".

Not really. What is best for an individual is subjective and based on their skill. What is universally best isn't. We can measure dps output. For instance:

Person A wears gear setup B and can pull 35k dps using simple rotation C
Person D wears gear setup E and can pull 55k dps using complex rotation F

Person A wears gear setup E and can pull 30k dps using complex rotation F
Person D wears gear setup B and can pull 40k dps using simple rotation C

From this we can see that Person D is the better player assuming they both know how to not stand in red etc...

We also see that gear setup E and complex rotation F have a higher potential damage output. Person A clearly struggles with complex rotation F and gets better dps from gear setup B and simple rotation C

This means that while gear setup B and simple rotation C are the best for Player A, it is clear that gear setup E and complex rotation F are the best overall.

To assume that some builds don't drastically outperform others is ignorant.

While some other things might always be found out to be better through extensive testing and we might never know exactly what is best, we do know what is not the best. To put it simply, a quote I read once; we can't know the exact number of fish in the ocean, but we know the answer isn't seven.

No, what's ignorant is how single-minded metagamers can be. This is why elitism is shunned

Numbers are numbers, player skill is player skill. Numbers can THEORETICALLY display a build's superiority, but only a player's skill can determine what is truly superior. A build that works better in theory may not work for whoever is using it because it does not mesh with them. Build Compatibility > Numbers anyday, and THAT is play your way.

Not saying the math professors are wrong, just saying it's wrong to say only THEY are right.

I'm not talking about whatever works best for the average joe. If he can't handle a complex rotation that a certain best in slot gear set requires, he is probably better using something different that suits him. However it is unlikely that that guy is going to outperform the player that can use that complex rotation that the best in slot gear requires. Now if this hypothetical elitist was to use average joes setup, he would still out dps him, because he is better. He would not, however out dps his best in slot gear set and rotation. So, while best in slot is not best for average joe, you would be ignorant to claim that it isn't the best or at least one of the best setups in the game. The meta doesn't get made by randomly throwing *** together. People test these things extensively. Sometimes someone can show them something is better and the meta shifts, but what they were doing was still top level.

I don't deny the meta has advantages of its own, but it's also not for everyone for various reasons. The meta is, however, not automatically better than anyone not meta because some non-meta may be skilled enough to pull off the meta but choose not to follow it.

Luigi_Vampa

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Typhoios wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Typhoios wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Typhoios wrote: »

alpehans wrote: »

I hate that sentence, it's so misleading. Is it true for lot of the content ...... sure. But far from all of it.
Nothing but a cheap sales pitch.

I would rather say . Find a playstyle that suits you and is viable. Try different things to learn and improve etc etc ...
But ofc. that dosen't sound as slick

It isn't that misleading. Compared to other MMOs you really can play the way you want. On any class you can heal, tank, melee dps, range dps, run around with a bow, shoot spells out of a staff. You can wear any armor you want. Most MMOs only let certain classes do any of those things. ESO classes are better suited to certain roles, but you can do whatever. For most of the questing in this game you really can play however you want. The problem is when people think they can do endgame with other players and not care about how well they fill their role. You can play the way you want, that doesn't mean your playstyle is going to be the best. That doesn't make play the way you want any less true however.

The "best" is subjective really. Far as I'm concerned the "best" is what you can use to its fullest. The "best" build for one person may not work as well for another, and so there is no universal "best".

Not really. What is best for an individual is subjective and based on their skill. What is universally best isn't. We can measure dps output. For instance:

Person A wears gear setup B and can pull 35k dps using simple rotation C
Person D wears gear setup E and can pull 55k dps using complex rotation F

Person A wears gear setup E and can pull 30k dps using complex rotation F
Person D wears gear setup B and can pull 40k dps using simple rotation C

From this we can see that Person D is the better player assuming they both know how to not stand in red etc...

We also see that gear setup E and complex rotation F have a higher potential damage output. Person A clearly struggles with complex rotation F and gets better dps from gear setup B and simple rotation C

This means that while gear setup B and simple rotation C are the best for Player A, it is clear that gear setup E and complex rotation F are the best overall.

To assume that some builds don't drastically outperform others is ignorant.

While some other things might always be found out to be better through extensive testing and we might never know exactly what is best, we do know what is not the best. To put it simply, a quote I read once; we can't know the exact number of fish in the ocean, but we know the answer isn't seven.

No, what's ignorant is how single-minded metagamers can be. This is why elitism is shunned

Numbers are numbers, player skill is player skill. Numbers can THEORETICALLY display a build's superiority, but only a player's skill can determine what is truly superior. A build that works better in theory may not work for whoever is using it because it does not mesh with them. Build Compatibility > Numbers anyday, and THAT is play your way.

Not saying the math professors are wrong, just saying it's wrong to say only THEY are right.

I'm not talking about whatever works best for the average joe. If he can't handle a complex rotation that a certain best in slot gear set requires, he is probably better using something different that suits him. However it is unlikely that that guy is going to outperform the player that can use that complex rotation that the best in slot gear requires. Now if this hypothetical elitist was to use average joes setup, he would still out dps him, because he is better. He would not, however out dps his best in slot gear set and rotation. So, while best in slot is not best for average joe, you would be ignorant to claim that it isn't the best or at least one of the best setups in the game. The meta doesn't get made by randomly throwing *** together. People test these things extensively. Sometimes someone can show them something is better and the meta shifts, but what they were doing was still top level.

I don't deny the meta has advantages of its own, but it's also not for everyone for various reasons. The meta is, however, not automatically better than anyone not meta because some non-meta may be skilled enough to pull off the meta but choose not to follow it.

Right, but they would perform better if they followed the meta. That is the point. I'm not saying that people have to follow the meta, but if this skilled player was outperforming the meta, then that would become the new meta.

UltimaJoe777

Typhoios wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Typhoios wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Typhoios wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Typhoios wrote: »

alpehans wrote: »

I hate that sentence, it's so misleading. Is it true for lot of the content ...... sure. But far from all of it.
Nothing but a cheap sales pitch.

I would rather say . Find a playstyle that suits you and is viable. Try different things to learn and improve etc etc ...
But ofc. that dosen't sound as slick

It isn't that misleading. Compared to other MMOs you really can play the way you want. On any class you can heal, tank, melee dps, range dps, run around with a bow, shoot spells out of a staff. You can wear any armor you want. Most MMOs only let certain classes do any of those things. ESO classes are better suited to certain roles, but you can do whatever. For most of the questing in this game you really can play however you want. The problem is when people think they can do endgame with other players and not care about how well they fill their role. You can play the way you want, that doesn't mean your playstyle is going to be the best. That doesn't make play the way you want any less true however.

The "best" is subjective really. Far as I'm concerned the "best" is what you can use to its fullest. The "best" build for one person may not work as well for another, and so there is no universal "best".

Not really. What is best for an individual is subjective and based on their skill. What is universally best isn't. We can measure dps output. For instance:

Person A wears gear setup B and can pull 35k dps using simple rotation C
Person D wears gear setup E and can pull 55k dps using complex rotation F

Person A wears gear setup E and can pull 30k dps using complex rotation F
Person D wears gear setup B and can pull 40k dps using simple rotation C

From this we can see that Person D is the better player assuming they both know how to not stand in red etc...

We also see that gear setup E and complex rotation F have a higher potential damage output. Person A clearly struggles with complex rotation F and gets better dps from gear setup B and simple rotation C

This means that while gear setup B and simple rotation C are the best for Player A, it is clear that gear setup E and complex rotation F are the best overall.

To assume that some builds don't drastically outperform others is ignorant.

While some other things might always be found out to be better through extensive testing and we might never know exactly what is best, we do know what is not the best. To put it simply, a quote I read once; we can't know the exact number of fish in the ocean, but we know the answer isn't seven.

No, what's ignorant is how single-minded metagamers can be. This is why elitism is shunned

Numbers are numbers, player skill is player skill. Numbers can THEORETICALLY display a build's superiority, but only a player's skill can determine what is truly superior. A build that works better in theory may not work for whoever is using it because it does not mesh with them. Build Compatibility > Numbers anyday, and THAT is play your way.

Not saying the math professors are wrong, just saying it's wrong to say only THEY are right.

I'm not talking about whatever works best for the average joe. If he can't handle a complex rotation that a certain best in slot gear set requires, he is probably better using something different that suits him. However it is unlikely that that guy is going to outperform the player that can use that complex rotation that the best in slot gear requires. Now if this hypothetical elitist was to use average joes setup, he would still out dps him, because he is better. He would not, however out dps his best in slot gear set and rotation. So, while best in slot is not best for average joe, you would be ignorant to claim that it isn't the best or at least one of the best setups in the game. The meta doesn't get made by randomly throwing *** together. People test these things extensively. Sometimes someone can show them something is better and the meta shifts, but what they were doing was still top level.

I don't deny the meta has advantages of its own, but it's also not for everyone for various reasons. The meta is, however, not automatically better than anyone not meta because some non-meta may be skilled enough to pull off the meta but choose not to follow it.

Right, but they would perform better if they followed the meta. That is the point. I'm not saying that people have to follow the meta, but if this skilled player was outperforming the meta, then that would become the new meta.

Unless they kept it secret lol but yes I get what you're saying.

Wollust

So many special snowflakes

UltimaJoe777

Wollust wrote: »

So many special snowflakes

Takes 1 to know 1 I suppose, because I sure as hell wouldn't know one if I saw it.